How are you guys able to spend so much money on natural gut?

#51
Just my observation, the tension loss is far less on earlier premium guts. I can speak to that as I have a good stock pile of VS from the 90's to 2000 or so. Not a great deal of experience with Lux, but the older gut handles very differently and strings differently. The extensive coating on older gut seems to be missing. Probably less weatherproof and maybe less durable, but the extra coatings in modern gut could affect tension reliability. I have handled other modern guts and the appearance is of a multi as the coatings really are apparent. Just 2 cents...
The tension maintenance isn't terrible, but definitely noticeable. I've used a few sets of Luxilon and it drops tension gradually 15-20% after a few weeks of hitting then stays at that tension until it breaks but by then i find it too loose and have to cut it out
 

IowaGuy

Hall of Fame
#52
The tension maintenance isn't terrible, but definitely noticeable. I've used a few sets of Luxilon and it drops tension gradually 15-20% after a few weeks of hitting then stays at that tension until it breaks but by then i find it too loose and have to cut it out
I have tried full bed Klip Legend, Pacific Tough Gut, and Pacific Classic Gut and IME they have similar tension maintenance to Lux Gut...
 

IowaGuy

Hall of Fame
#54
I figured so, i have only been using luxilon the last few months and had nothing to compare it to
I haven't tried the older guts like Frankc mentioned, it's possible that the coating affects the tension maintenance.

But, regardless, 15-20% tension loss is manageable.

Have you tried letting your strings sit unplayed for a while to get rid of some of the inherent early tension loss? That has been key for me to get more playable hours out of the string...
 
#55
The tension maintenance isn't terrible, but definitely noticeable. I've used a few sets of Luxilon and it drops tension gradually 15-20% after a few weeks of hitting then stays at that tension until it breaks but by then i find it too loose and have to cut it out
Natural gut has the best tension-holding capability of any string. That said, if you want to improve its tension retention, pre-stretch it.
 
#59
If you use an 18X20 string pattern you'll be fine, Nat gut lasts forever in tight string pattern configurations.
Agreed. Not only does it last for a long time it obviously plays great in a hybrid in a 18x20 string pattern. A fabulous combination of spin, control, feel, comfort, and playability.

Life is too short for crappy string or crappy wine. Cheerio!


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#60
I haven't tried the older guts like Frankc mentioned, it's possible that the coating affects the tension maintenance.

But, regardless, 15-20% tension loss is manageable.

Have you tried letting your strings sit unplayed for a while to get rid of some of the inherent early tension loss? That has been key for me to get more playable hours out of the string...
The longest I've waited is 48 hours but I'm going to take a page out of your book and try it next string job.
 
#61
Everyone says natural gut is best, but it costs waaaay more than other strings and also breaks sooner than poly.

Im currently using a poly/poly hybrid which costs around 15-20$ plus stringing which is 10$, so total of 25-30$ and I tend to break strings fairly often and when I play my usual amount of tennis per week (currently not playing much) I string on average weekly, so thats 100-120$ per month.

If I would be stringing gut/poly, it would cost around 35$ plus stringing which is 10$ so thats 45$ total, and the gut would break much sooner since poly is more tough, so if I would be stringing 6-7 times per month that would be 270-315$ per month, just for strings!!!
Yea, I only string 4 X per month at most and if I use Gut/poly, it still gets real expensive real fast. so I have to use Multi/ poly combo even though it doesn't play as well as Gut/Poly combo
 
#63
Yea, I only string 4 X per month at most and if I use Gut/poly, it still gets real expensive real fast. so I have to use Multi/ poly combo even though it doesn't play as well as Gut/Poly combo
If you string 4x/month, get an 18x20 frame bed and move to the enjoyment of gut/poly full time. There are rackets that don't break strings easily. You guys are aware of this right?

I used to think I was Mr. Power breaking strings with my PD while my friends strings lasted a lot longer in their 6.1 95's. Then I moved to the 93P and breaking a string is a real bit of work. Sometimes its as much the racket as anything.
 
#64
If you string 4x/month, get an 18x20 frame bed and move to the enjoyment of gut/poly full time. There are rackets that don't break strings easily. You guys are aware of this right?

I used to think I was Mr. Power breaking strings with my PD while my friends strings lasted a lot longer in their 6.1 95's. Then I moved to the 93P and breaking a string is a real bit of work. Sometimes its as much the racket as anything.
then I have to change my swing pattern. with closed string bed like that, it is very tough to generate 3000 RPM. I don't think I can use that string pattern
 

Traffic

Hall of Fame
#65
Klip Legend isn't too pricey.
I get about 15-20hrs with Velocity hybrid. Then Velocity wears out. I cut out Velocity and re-string with new Velocity weaving opposite side pattern.

I may try hybriding with a stiffer poly. I tried with cream and the results were mixed for me. Great spin and feel but there was differences in power levels on some of my groundstrokes. Maybe I'll see if that was technique as I've improved since last Spring when I first tried it.

I did get in on a little bit of the action on the Lux gut sale at the end of last year.
 
#66
Everyone says natural gut is best, but it costs waaaay more than other strings and also breaks sooner than poly.

Im currently using a poly/poly hybrid which costs around 15-20$ plus stringing which is 10$, so total of 25-30$ and I tend to break strings fairly often and when I play my usual amount of tennis per week (currently not playing much) I string on average weekly, so thats 100-120$ per month.

If I would be stringing gut/poly, it would cost around 35$ plus stringing which is 10$ so thats 45$ total, and the gut would break much sooner since poly is more tough, so if I would be stringing 6-7 times per month that would be 270-315$ per month, just for strings!!!
No. Actually gut lasts longer than poly. As you get better and find yourself hitting with harder hitters with consistently heavy topspin, you’ll find that most poly only lasts 10 hours max. After that, the poly has lost all of its elasticity. The mains no longer snap back. The crosses will be completely flat having been scraped down due to the friction created from the mains moving back and forth.

General guidelines I’ve experienced over many years experimentation: (times will vary +/- vs the estimates below based on head size as well)
~10 hours max if you use a racquet with a tight 18x20 pattern
~8 hours max if you use a 16x19 pattern
~4-6 hours max if you use a 16x18 pattern
< 4 hours if you use a 14x18 pattern

Quality 16g gut lasts at least twice that long in a gut/poly hybrid. 16g full gut lasts much longer than that.
 
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#67
then I have to change my swing pattern. with closed string bed like that, it is very tough to generate 3000 RPM. I don't think I can use that string pattern
Pretty sure Thiem and Djokovic get 3000 rpm from their 18x20. The amount of spin difference is negligible if you are using spin strings and hitting with good RHS.

What you are really saying is “I want easy spin so I don’t have to work at technique much”. And I’m saying the money saved on strings could buy you lessons to shore up technique.
 
#68
Agreed. Not only does it last for a long time it obviously plays great in a hybrid in a 18x20 string pattern. A fabulous combination of spin, control, feel, comfort, and playability.

Life is too short for crappy string or crappy wine. Cheerio!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
This made me spit out my drink, hilarious, and absolutely true. Tennis is just not the same playing with plastic-feeling average polyesters or low-quality syn gut. Gut mains poly crosses deliver the goods everytime, as long as the poly cross isn't shaped and saws into the gut (I have a friend who uses Tour Bite crosses with gut mains and I still don't understand why, his strings snap after 2 matches).
 
#69
In relation to RPM's, you actually get *more* revolutions on the ball with a closed string pattern if you have the right technique (Sloane Stephens is a good example as is Thiem), it's a different 'kind' of spin with a lower trajectory. Open-patterned string-beds give *easier* access to spin with slower swing-speeds but 18X20 will give you the most vicious ball if you put everything into it.
 
#70
A racquet company needs to come out with a 20X22 string pattern, that'd be sick, I know there are vintage tennis frames like that but not current-gen frames.
 
#71
In relation to RPM's, you actually get *more* revolutions on the ball with a closed string pattern if you have the right technique (Sloane Stephens is a good example as is Thiem), it's a different 'kind' of spin with a lower trajectory. Open-patterned string-beds give *easier* access to spin with slower swing-speeds but 18X20 will give you the most vicious ball if you put everything into it.
I know my friends comment that my ball is significantly "heavier" from my Phantom 93P FH than from my Phantom 100 FH. So I don't really buy the "need a spin frame to get spin" dogma. Several good examples of pros with heavy spin loaded balls excelling with 18x20 frames and even if you watch TW playtester reviews of rackets and look at the play sight numbers, they get equivalent and sometimes better spin values with 18x20 frames.
 
#72
You get the most spin out of your technique not from strings. I agree with you and I do not guy into the " spin frame" dogma. The player determines the spin no matter what racquet they are using.
 
#74
I know my friends comment that my ball is significantly "heavier" from my Phantom 93P FH than from my Phantom 100 FH. So I don't really buy the "need a spin frame to get spin" dogma. Several good examples of pros with heavy spin loaded balls excelling with 18x20 frames and even if you watch TW playtester reviews of rackets and look at the play sight numbers, they get equivalent and sometimes better spin values with 18x20 frames.
Even on Nadals frame, it's 16X19 but its quite tight in the sweetspot area. The only player I can think of that hits with a super open string-bed is Strycova with her 16X15 spin effect frame, but I suspect that's to get more pace not spin. I remember playing with the 99S and the 105S and wow, they were absolute power machines even without added weight.
 
#75
You get the most spin out of your technique not from strings. I agree with you and I do not guy into the " spin frame" dogma. The player determines the spin no matter what racquet they are using.
fundamentally yes. but the “spin frames” do make a difference multiplying the spin generated by your technique.


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#76
Interesting, i didnt know about such good sales at the end of the year, that would maybe make sense then, need to try and teat to see how long they would last for me before breaking.

Do you all pre stretch the gut before stringing?
And also do you all use string savers?
The sale was US only. I was diligently checking the websites of online string sellers in the UK during that sale and....nada.

FFS Lux as European company didn't throw its European customers a freakin' bone.
 
#77
Everyone says natural gut is best
natural gut strings get notches/fray really fast and stay where the ball moved them after the last shot after 1h of play (while the slick mono-polys return to their original position), this is what i experienced using völkl cyclone in the mains with babolat tonic+ in the crosses. i have the impression that the control suffers due to that. if i could restring them every 7 to 9 games, i would use them.
 
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#78
T
Yea, I only string 4 X per month at most and if I use Gut/poly, it still gets real expensive real fast. so I have to use Multi/ poly combo even though it doesn't play as well as Gut/Poly combo
There is no doubt about the cost even if you are stringing yourself. I play Gut/poly quite a bit and have my cost down to about $18-19 a frame but can string with a good poly at $4-$6 a frame. The best play is 3-5hrs with either so it makes more sense to go with the cheaper option. Gut/poly is easier on the arm than full bed poly but I don’t play any better with Gut/poly than I do full bed poly. Actually have more control with full poly.
 
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jklos

Professional
#79
T


There is no doubt about the cost even if you are stringing yourself. I play Gut/poly quite a bit and have my cost down to about $18-19 a frame but can string with a good poly at $4-$6 a frame. The best play is 3-5hrs with either so it makes more sense to go with the cheaper option. Gut/poly is easier on the arm than full bed poly but I don’t play any better with Gut/poly than I do full bed poly. Actually have more control with full poly.
I have a tough time controlling Gut/Poly as well. I've had it in for about three weeks, maybe 6 to 8 hours of play. I'm cutting it out to unfortunately. Going back to full poly.
 
#80
Everyone says natural gut is best, but it costs waaaay more than other strings and also breaks sooner than poly.

Im currently using a poly/poly hybrid which costs around 15-20$ plus stringing which is 10$, so total of 25-30$ and I tend to break strings fairly often and when I play my usual amount of tennis per week (currently not playing much) I string on average weekly, so thats 100-120$ per month.

If I would be stringing gut/poly, it would cost around 35$ plus stringing which is 10$ so thats 45$ total, and the gut would break much sooner since poly is more tough, so if I would be stringing 6-7 times per month that would be 270-315$ per month, just for strings!!!
I have been using Babolat VS Touch 15L(1.35 mm) along with Prince round polys in my prestige pro. I do hit with a fair amount of spin and the gut is showing slight signs of wear after about 22 hours while still maintaining playability. I doubt poly/poly hybrid will offer this kind of comfort and tension maintenance and you have to restring often. In the long run, it all evens out and gut/poly maybe more cost effective.
 
#81
I have been using Babolat VS Touch 15L(1.35 mm) along with Prince round polys in my prestige pro. I do hit with a fair amount of spin and the gut is showing slight signs of wear after about 22 hours while still maintaining playability. I doubt poly/poly hybrid will offer this kind of comfort and tension maintenance and you have to restring often. In the long run, it all evens out and gut/poly maybe more cost effective.
Prince strings are so good as crosses with gut mains, have you tried putting tiny amounts of superglue on the parts of the gut that starts to unravel? Works for me.
 

andreh

Professional
#82
I use full bed VS team in an old Pro Staff 6.0 at low 50s tension. I rarely break a string. Lasts forever for me so gut is actually very economical in my case.
 
#83
Prince strings are so good as crosses with gut mains, have you tried putting tiny amounts of superglue on the parts of the gut that starts to unravel? Works for me.
Never tried that and I don’t think I need to take that extra care. Without any care; I can go 6 months without restringing. Trust me, my next string job is going to be VS Gut 15L and prince Tour XP 16. That will last me all summer. Gut poly has been a revelation for me and is amazing how long it stays fresh.
 
#84
Prince strings are so good as crosses with gut mains, have you tried putting tiny amounts of superglue on the parts of the gut that starts to unravel? Works for me.
Prince strings are just so good! Tour XP, XC and XR are are very good. I do mostly use Tour XR as a cross.
 
#85
I have a tough time controlling Gut/Poly as well. I've had it in for about three weeks, maybe 6 to 8 hours of play. I'm cutting it out to unfortunately. Going back to full poly.
It could be the tension you are stringing this hybrid at. My bet is you’re stringing it too high. I’ve found Gut/Poly played very well at LOWER tensions and I actually get more control.


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#86
It could be the tension you are stringing this hybrid at. My bet is you’re stringing it too high. I’ve found Gut/Poly played very well at LOWER tensions and I actually get more control.


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Yeah I thought that would be an issue but I find lower tensions really works well. I think its because it allows more string movement to get more spin once you go lower.

I used to use Gut/poly at 60/55 lbs. Now I'm at 50/44 lbs and it works way better for me.
 

jga111

Hall of Fame
#87
If you're rich or a strong earner there isn't a problem.

I'm ok on the money front but I do my own stringing so never have to pay for someone else to do that.

If I struggled for cash I wouldn't bother with Gut. Gut for me is a luxury. I'd use full poly on a thicker gauge with a string that holds tension well. Any arm issues then try a soft co-poly until one works.
 
#88
I used to race cars, gut costs nothing. Really.

That being said, you can either play full poly for 15$-20$, have a good 4hours of play, then it turns to average for another 4 hours and finally a last 8hours of crap play. Or you can pay 45$ for gut/poly that will play well for 8-10hours, average for another 8hours and then die a sudden death while serving or returning.

It's only more expensive if you count the total cost over the life of gut/poly. If you calculate the cost over the good to average playability gut/poly costs 2.80$/h (45$/16h) while full poly costs 2.50$/h (20$/8h). Not a huge difference and if you include the stringing it's 3.44$/h gut/poly vs 3.75$/full poly. Gut/poly suddenly makes sense.

What I personnally do is stock up on gut (and poly) during the black friday and Christmas sales. ;)
No kidding, what I spend on tires, brakes, fuel for one event would be 10 years worth of natural gut.
 
#90
No. Actually gut lasts longer than poly. As you get better and find yourself hitting with harder hitters with consistently heavy topspin, you’ll find that most poly only lasts 10 hours max. After that, the poly has lost all of its elasticity. The mains no longer snap back. The crosses will be completely flat having been scraped down due to the friction created from the mains moving back and forth.

General guidelines I’ve experienced over many years experimentation: (times will vary +/- vs the estimates below based on head size as well)
~10 hours max if you use a racquet with a tight 18x20 pattern
~8 hours max if you use a 16x19 pattern
~4-6 hours max if you use a 16x18 pattern
< 4 hours if you use a 14x18 pattern

Quality 16g gut lasts at least twice that long in a gut/poly hybrid. 16g full gut lasts much longer than that.
When I played college, tons of players, myself included, played poly until we broke it which could be a couple weeks hitting and playing matches for a couple hours each day. Yeah the strings got looser, but it wasn't that hard to adjust and it made no difference in our performance. This forum vastly overrates the importance of equipment.
 
#91
When I played college, tons of players, myself included, played poly until we broke it which could be a couple weeks hitting and playing matches for a couple hours each day. Yeah the strings got looser, but it wasn't that hard to adjust and it made no difference in our performance. This forum vastly overrates the importance of equipment.
I used to play poly until it broke as well. But I found that as I’ve gotten older, my joints have become more sensitive to the lack of shock absorption from dead poly which has lost most of its elasticity. First it was just my wrist that got sore and achy. Now it’s my wrist and elbow. Restring and the pain mysteriously goes away.
 
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IowaGuy

Hall of Fame
#93
When I played college, tons of players, myself included, played poly until we broke it which could be a couple weeks hitting and playing matches for a couple hours each day. Yeah the strings got looser, but it wasn't that hard to adjust and it made no difference in our performance. This forum vastly overrates the importance of equipment.
Lots of pros including Federer and Roddick bring rackets to a match strung at different tensions, to account for potentially different playing conditions. Sometimes just 1 or 2 kg difference...

Furthermore, pros generally change rackets after every few games...

Do you think this is just placebo effect?
 
#94
I haven't tried the older guts like Frankc mentioned, it's possible that the coating affects the tension maintenance.

But, regardless, 15-20% tension loss is manageable.

Have you tried letting your strings sit unplayed for a while to get rid of some of the inherent early tension loss? That has been key for me to get more playable hours out of the string...
How long is "for a while"? A couple of days or a couple of weeks?
 
#95
Lots of pros including Federer and Roddick bring rackets to a match strung at different tensions, to account for potentially different playing conditions. Sometimes just 1 or 2 kg difference...

Furthermore, pros generally change rackets after every few games...

Do you think this is just placebo effect?
Part placebo effect, part they have millions of dollars on the line and get free strings and restringings so why not?
 
#96
I used to play poly until it broke as well. But I found that as I’ve gotten older, my joints have become more sensitive to the lack of shock absorption from dead poly which has lost most of its elasticity. First it was just my wrist that got sore and achy. Now it’s my wrist and elbow. Restoring and the pain mysteriously goes away.
So it isn't the tension that's the problem then? Because looser strings are softer. Though it's possible poly loses elasticity and gets harder on the arm, I don't know.
 
#97
So it isn't the tension that's the problem then? Because looser strings are softer. Though it's possible poly loses elasticity and gets harder on the arm, I don't know.
It’s both. I can adjust for the looser strings. That’s not a big deal. But when the crosses are all ground down flat, the strings don’t grip the ball as well so there’s a lot less spin being generated. Fine for practice sessions, but not for matches. But now that my joints complain due to the harsher stringbed, if it doesn’t break, I cut it out anyways when the mains stop snapping back and the crosses are worn. It seems counterintuitive because a looser stringbed should be more comfortable but with poly, it seems to lose all elasticity so it’s like hitting a stringbed with no give. All the shock goes to my joints instead.

Of course not all poly is created equal. Some age better than others. And as with everything, ymmv.
 
#98
When I played college, tons of players, myself included, played poly until we broke it which could be a couple weeks hitting and playing matches for a couple hours each day. Yeah the strings got looser, but it wasn't that hard to adjust and it made no difference in our performance. This forum vastly overrates the importance of equipment.
That is what we see at the collegiate and challenger circuit as well. Have seen women in the top 120 do the same thing. Play til it breaks.
I have been stringing three frames a month at $4 a frame. Cost is low and racquets play well the whole time.
 
#99
Lots of pros including Federer and Roddick bring rackets to a match strung at different tensions, to account for potentially different playing conditions. Sometimes just 1 or 2 kg difference...

Furthermore, pros generally change rackets after every few games...

Do you think this is just placebo effect?

Pros also tie their shoelaces specific ways, put bottles in front of their bench specific ways, etc. Not everything is done for performance. Many things are done for superstition at the pro level because the margins are so fine and getting lady luck on your side can't hurt.

So don't discount placebo.
 
When I played college, tons of players, myself included, played poly until we broke it which could be a couple weeks hitting and playing matches for a couple hours each day. Yeah the strings got looser, but it wasn't that hard to adjust and it made no difference in our performance. This forum vastly overrates the importance of equipment.
Surely it made a difference, you can't sit here and say ALU Power plays the same after 20 hours. You can adjust to anything really. Hell I could play with natural gut strung at 30 lbs but why would I is the question?
 
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