How can a player who has declined in some aspect be at their "peak"?

Sabratha

Talk Tennis Guru
#1
I'm talking about Federer apparently peaking in his mid 30s and being so, so unlucky to run into Djokovic... how was he at the peak of his powers at the time?

He was coming back from injury and had an obvious decline in speed. Speed is virtually everything in tennis. How's it possible he is at the peak of his powers?!?! Not to mention he has a lot of mileage. Does mileage not matter anymore? Does that mean Murray's at his peak too? Is everyone constantly at their best today?

Really confusing argument all around. Would love to have it explained.
 
#2
I'm talking about Federer apparently peaking in his mid 30s and being so, so unlucky to run into Djokovic... how was he at the peak of his powers at the time?

He was coming back from injury and had an obvious decline in speed. Speed is virtually everything in tennis. How's it possible he is at the peak of his powers?!?! Not to mention he has a lot of mileage. Does mileage not matter anymore? Does that mean Murray's at his peak too? Is everyone constantly at their best today?

Really confusing argument all around. Would love to have it explained.
Mentality counts too. Look at prime Federer. Granted, he was still bad on the BPs, but he had a go-for-broke attitude that faded as the years stacked up. Fed was literally losing confidence against Nadal and Djokovic (mostly Djokovic). The mindset IMO might be just as important. In the 2000s, Fed really believed he could do it. In the 2010s, he was clearly in doubt.
 
#8
The difference in athletic performance between those age groups is negligible. That's the difference.

10-14 years difference = / = 43 years difference.
Then explain why Kobe Bryant averaged 27 points per game at age 26 in the 2004/2005 season and only 17 points per game in the 2015/2016 season at age 37.

Explain why Michael Jordan averaged 33 points per game at age 26 in 1989/1990 and only 22 points per game at age 39 in 2001/2002.
 
#12
Because basketball evolves.

Try using your phone from 2007 on today's internet.
Kobe and Jordan are not advanced with regard to a particular era. They are advanced with regard to humanity as a whole. They would be NBA stars in any era.

The reason why Kobe and Jordan had much worse stats in their late 30s than in their mid 20s is simply that they declined due to age.

Also, explain why Usain Bolt ran slower in the Olympics 2016 (age 30) than in the Olympics 2008 and 2012 (age 22-26).
 
#18
Declined in some aspect says OP.

What about improved in another aspect?

Federer was playing with a 90 inch head, while the rest of the tour was playing with 98-100 inch heads.

Federer was better in 2015 than at anytime previously, I have no doubt of that. Insane what he achieved given that he was literally handicapping himself against the rest of the field in prior years.

It’s an under appreciated part of the Federer story and GOAT or no GOAT I am convinced he has the best hand eye coordination in the history of the game, and by some margin too.
 
#19
Kobe and Jordan are not advanced with regard to a particular era. They are advanced with regard to humanity as a whole. They would be NBA stars in any era.

The reason why Kobe and Jordan had much worse stats in their late 30s than in their mid 20s is simply that they declined due to age.

Also, explain why Usain Bolt ran slower in the Olympics 2016 (age 30) than in the Olympics 2008 and 2012 (age 22-26).
Are you trying to say that Federer is playing in a weak era?
 
#20
I'm talking about Federer apparently peaking in his mid 30s and being so, so unlucky to run into Djokovic... how was he at the peak of his powers at the time?

He was coming back from injury and had an obvious decline in speed. Speed is virtually everything in tennis. How's it possible he is at the peak of his powers?!?! Not to mention he has a lot of mileage. Does mileage not matter anymore? Does that mean Murray's at his peak too? Is everyone constantly at their best today?

Really confusing argument all around. Would love to have it explained.
Saby!


 
#23
Declined in some aspect says OP.

What about improved in another aspect?

Federer was playing with a 90 inch head, while the rest of the tour was playing with 98-100 inch heads.

Federer was better in 2015 than at anytime previously, I have no doubt of that. Insane what he achieved given that he was literally handicapping himself against the rest of the field in prior years.

It’s an under appreciated part of the Federer story and GOAT or no GOAT I am convinced he has the best hand eye coordination in the history of the game, and by some margin too.
What did he improve in 2015?
 
#26
Kobe and Jordan are not advanced with regard to a particular era. They are advanced with regard to humanity as a whole. They would be NBA stars in any era.

The reason why Kobe and Jordan had much worse stats in their late 30s than in their mid 20s is simply that they declined due to age.

Also, explain why Usain Bolt ran slower in the Olympics 2016 (age 30) than in the Olympics 2008 and 2012 (age 22-26).
More like their opponents got more athletic and became better defenders.

Bolt ran slower but Donovan Bailey and Justin Gatlin ran faster in their 30s.
 
#27
Clearly he hasn't been at his peak in his mid 30s, it's a ridiculous suggestion. But just because he wasn't at his best doesn't mean every part of his game was weaker than at his peak. His forehand is not as good as it used to be, but his backhand is more consistent. His speed is not what it used to be, but his intelligence and how he constructs points has never been better. He doesn't win as many return points as he used to, but he gets better on serve every year. The true greatness of Federer is his evolution and how he has consistently found a way to create a game that keeps him in contention, year on year.
 
#29
Mr
I'm talking about Federer apparently peaking in his mid 30s and being so, so unlucky to run into Djokovic... how was he at the peak of his powers at the time?

He was coming back from injury and had an obvious decline in speed. Speed is virtually everything in tennis. How's it possible he is at the peak of his powers?!?! Not to mention he has a lot of mileage. Does mileage not matter anymore? Does that mean Murray's at his peak too? Is everyone constantly at their best today?

Really confusing argument all around. Would love to have it explained.[/QUOTE

Murray is not beating everyone and then getting his a*** handed by Nole. Like 03-07 Fed was beating everyone else but getting defeated by only tough opponent he ran in to. Before it was Nadal and then Djokovic. Make all excuses you want but 30-35 year old Fed would clean 03-07 era Titans .
 
#33
Clearly he hasn't been at his peak in his mid 30s, it's a ridiculous suggestion. But just because he wasn't at his best doesn't mean every part of his game was weaker than at his peak. His forehand is not as good as it used to be, but his backhand is more consistent. His speed is not what it used to be, but his intelligence and how he constructs points has never been better. He doesn't win as many return points as he used to, but he gets better on serve every year. The true greatness of Federer is his evolution and how he has consistently found a way to create a game that keeps him in contention, year on year.
His supposed "peak" forehand landed inside the service box on most shots.

Federer's forehand has always been heavily dependent on his serve. The shot itself was never overpowering; it was the serve that set it up and then the footwork to create the necessary angle.

He finishes more points at net now which is why he doesn't hit quite as many forehand winners. But if you actually go back and watch his old matches in HD, you'll see that he could hit all the same forehand winners today. He wasn't Del Potro or Gonzalez. He was not going to stand there and hit through you. He had to move you out of position with a serve or a slice and then use his feet to get in position for the putaway.
 
#34
His supposed "peak" forehand landed inside the service box on most shots.

Federer's forehand has always been heavily dependent on his serve. The shot itself was never overpowering; it was the serve that set it up and then the footwork to create the necessary angle.

He finishes more points at net now which is why he doesn't hit quite as many forehand winners. But if you actually go back and watch his old matches in HD, you'll see that he could hit all the same forehand winners today. He wasn't Del Potro or Gonzalez. He was not going to stand there and hit through you. He had to move you out of position with a serve or a slice and then use his feet to get in position for the putaway.
I can only assume you’re referring to Fed’s 2014-2015 FH.
 
#36
His supposed "peak" forehand landed inside the service box on most shots.

Federer's forehand has always been heavily dependent on his serve. The shot itself was never overpowering; it was the serve that set it up and then the footwork to create the necessary angle.

He finishes more points at net now which is why he doesn't hit quite as many forehand winners. But if you actually go back and watch his old matches in HD, you'll see that he could hit all the same forehand winners today. He wasn't Del Potro or Gonzalez. He was not going to stand there and hit through you. He had to move you out of position with a serve or a slice and then use his feet to get in position for the putaway.
1. Federer's forehand has always been heavily dependent on his serve True, since 2013. Before that he hit through everyone with his FH with the smaller racket even if he was serving 40%.

2. The shot itself was never overpowering Spoken by someone who obviously never saw Fed in his glory years play live. His FH is the greatest shot in tennis history and widely regarded as such. It was absolutely overpowering prior to 2010.

3. He finishes more points at net now No he doesn't. Fed was a serve and volley player until 2002/03 when the courts were slowed down. Fed rarely comes to the net compared to his pre-2006 years.
 
#37
1. Federer's forehand has always been heavily dependent on his serve True, since 2013. Before that he hit through everyone with his FH with the smaller racket even if he was serving 40%.

2. The shot itself was never overpowering Spoken by someone who obviously never saw Fed in his glory years play live. His FH is the greatest shot in tennis history and widely regarded as such. It was absolutely overpowering prior to 2010.

3. He finishes more points at net now No he doesn't. Fed was a serve and volley player until 2002/03 when the courts were slowed down. Fed rarely comes to the net compared to his pre-2006 years.
You missed the thread where I posted Federer's matches vs. Davydenko USO 06 and Djokovic USO 07 which showed Federer's forehand was no better then than it is today. The only reason he won either match is Djokovic/Davydenko made boatloads of UFEs. Back then, players were nowhere near as consistent from the baseline as they are today. That's why Federer was able to dominate.

Over the last 12 years, everyone improved to where Federer could no longer dominate.

It's hilarious how some fans have deluded themselves into thinking that tennis would just stand still for 12 freak'n years. It's not a knock on Federer that he lost his dominance over everyone; he had his time. As did every player before him.

But the fact that he's still one of the 3 best players in the world after 12 years of evolution in tennis demonstrates he couldn't have declined.

And the videos back that up.

And yes, Federer finishes way more points at net now than he did during his dominant years. I'm not talking about 02/03.
 
#38
You missed the thread where I posted Federer's matches vs. Davydenko USO 06 and Djokovic USO 07 which showed Federer's forehand was no better then than it is today. The only reason he won either match is Djokovic/Davydenko made boatloads of UFEs. Back then, players were nowhere near as consistent from the baseline as they are today. That's why Federer was able to dominate.

Over the last 12 years, everyone improved to where Federer could no longer dominate.

It's hilarious how some fans have deluded themselves into thinking that tennis would just stand still for 12 freak'n years. It's not a knock on Federer that he lost his dominance over everyone; he had his time. As did every player before him.

But the fact that he's still one of the 3 best players in the world after 12 years of evolution in tennis demonstrates he couldn't have declined.

And the videos back that up.

And yes, Federer finishes way more points at net now than he did during his dominant years. I'm not talking about 02/03.
No idea what matches you were watching, but Fed’s FH was outstanding. Especially in the Davydenko match. The pace, spin, angles, depth etc.

Not even half the shot post 2013.
 
#39
I'm talking about Federer apparently peaking in his mid 30s and being so, so unlucky to run into Djokovic... how was he at the peak of his powers at the time?

He was coming back from injury and had an obvious decline in speed. Speed is virtually everything in tennis. How's it possible he is at the peak of his powers?!?! Not to mention he has a lot of mileage. Does mileage not matter anymore? Does that mean Murray's at his peak too? Is everyone constantly at their best today?

Really confusing argument all around. Would love to have it explained.
Another thread where Fed fans bash their idol... Fed is like good vine.... He is not on his peak anymore and he should not be, nobody can be on peak forever... His main rivals passed their peaks ages ago too... Why don't we see similar threads about that fact?... I guess Novak's and Rafa's can accept that time pass...
 

Tennis_Hands

Talk Tennis Guru
#40
You missed the thread where I posted Federer's matches vs. Davydenko USO 06 and Djokovic USO 07 which showed Federer's forehand was no better then than it is today. The only reason he won either match is Djokovic/Davydenko made boatloads of UFEs. Back then, players were nowhere near as consistent from the baseline as they are today. That's why Federer was able to dominate.

Over the last 12 years, everyone improved to where Federer could no longer dominate.

It's hilarious how some fans have deluded themselves into thinking that tennis would just stand still for 12 freak'n years. It's not a knock on Federer that he lost his dominance over everyone; he had his time. As did every player before him.

But the fact that he's still one of the 3 best players in the world after 12 years of evolution in tennis demonstrates he couldn't have declined.

And the videos back that up.

And yes, Federer finishes way more points at net now than he did during his dominant years. I'm not talking about 02/03.
Your thread didn't show anything of the sort, but if you want you can make another one just like it.

:rolleyes:
 

ABCD

Hall of Fame
#41
You missed the thread where I posted Federer's matches vs. Davydenko USO 06 and Djokovic USO 07 which showed Federer's forehand was no better then than it is today. The only reason he won either match is Djokovic/Davydenko made boatloads of UFEs. Back then, players were nowhere near as consistent from the baseline as they are today. That's why Federer was able to dominate.

Over the last 12 years, everyone improved to where Federer could no longer dominate.

It's hilarious how some fans have deluded themselves into thinking that tennis would just stand still for 12 freak'n years. It's not a knock on Federer that he lost his dominance over everyone; he had his time. As did every player before him.

But the fact that he's still one of the 3 best players in the world after 12 years of evolution in tennis demonstrates he couldn't have declined.

And the videos back that up.

And yes, Federer finishes way more points at net now than he did during his dominant years. I'm not talking about 02/03.
It is refreshing to read something normal. I totally support your argument and, for me, Federer's self-assessment ends any discussion about it “I think I'm a better player now than when I was at 24 because I've practised for another 10 years and I've got 10 years more experience,” Federer said. “I might not have the confidence I had at 24 when I was winning 40 matches in a row, but I feel like I hit a bigger serve, my backhand is better, my forehand is still as good as it's ever been, I volley better than I have in the past.” “I think I've had to adapt to a new generation of players again.” (August 2015).
 
#45
OP I answer your question with another: are you convinced that Federer's declined results and declined tennis quality are inseparable? In certain years post-2007, say 2011 and 2015 in particular, he played better tennis with declined results.

Federer's declined movement and FH are more than offset by huge improvements in his BH, net game and overall consistency. You play the guy across the net. If he is having an off day or far from peak, you don't need to be peak either. But some of the Fedovic matches from 2011 and 2015 are the best modern tennis I've seen. Is Federer playing everything in those years better in every way? Probably not. The variability in his results and questions about mental strength are obvious, but the answers less so. In the conventionally-labelled peak years 03-07, he simply didn't come across anybody with the mental strength of Nadalovic.

What about improved in another aspect? ... Federer was playing with a 90 inch head, while the rest of the tour was playing with 98-100 inch heads ... It’s an under appreciated part of the Federer story and GOAT or no GOAT I am convinced he has the best hand eye coordination in the history of the game, and by some margin too.
By some margin indeed. I re-watched the RG11 semi and final earlier in the week and it is absolutely stunning tennis, racquet-size notwithstanding. Taking Fed's racquet size into account, it's a bit mind-blowing.
 

Lew II

Hall of Fame
#48
Kobe and Jordan are not advanced with regard to a particular era. They are advanced with regard to humanity as a whole. They would be NBA stars in any era.

The reason why Kobe and Jordan had much worse stats in their late 30s than in their mid 20s is simply that they declined due to age.

Also, explain why Usain Bolt ran slower in the Olympics 2016 (age 30) than in the Olympics 2008 and 2012 (age 22-26).
https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/ind...-athletic-prime-and-competitive-prime.633854/
 
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