How can a player who has declined in some aspect be at their "peak"?

#55
That's what they said to Galileo, too.

You're a fool. So are all the other delusional Federer penis lickers. What you are doing is the equivalent to a 5-year-old plugging his ears and going, "I can't hear you!"
Any decent Djokovic or Nadal fan would disagree with you too. Enjoy your short life on TTW. Btw, tell 125 I said hello.
 
#58
@True Fanerer @BeatlesFan @Tennis_Hands hey fellas, why are you arguing against someone like Dallas or noletheking or other trollers who are so desperate to insult you and federer??
They are not going to understand a single point of yours, or make a valid judgemental argument..
Keeping silence is the best medicine for these trollers....
Arguing with them using rational points is like "भैंस के आगे बीन बजाना" in my language, which means "playing music in front of a mud Buffelo"...
My advice to you will be to ignore argument with these people...
 
#59
@True Fanerer @BeatlesFan @Tennis_Hands hey fellas, why are you arguing against someone like Dallas or noletheking or other trollers who are so desperate to insult you and federer??
They are not going to understand a single point of yours, or make a valid judgemental argument..
Keeping silence is the best medicine for these trollers....
Arguing with them using rational points is like "भैंस के आगे बीन बजाना" in my language, which means "playing music in front of a mud Buffelo"...
My advice to you will be to ignore argument with these people...
There's no argument to begin with. He's wrong and end of story.
 

Tennis_Hands

Talk Tennis Guru
#60
Actually ELO agrees with me, Federer has been declining since March 2007.
I don't know how Jeff, Richie, Bev or Roy's agreement can change anything, but I was hinting at your fanciful selection of a cutoff month, as well as the glaring omissions of several small but important details that you didn't even spare a word about while doing your usual attention-seeking errand.

Starting with the competition in the last several years, contributing significantly to the inflated numbers of all of the Big three (obviously including Federer's), and ending with the absolutely random cutting off of two Majors from the last year where Federer was considered at his peak (because 10-10 looks much better than 12-8 for your useless point here), you have not disappointed with yet another "opinion".

:cool:
 
#61
@True Fanerer @BeatlesFan @Tennis_Hands hey fellas, why are you arguing against someone like Dallas or noletheking or other trollers who are so desperate to insult you and federer??
They are not going to understand a single point of yours, or make a valid judgemental argument..
Keeping silence is the best medicine for these trollers....
Arguing with them using rational points is like "भैंस के आगे बीन बजाना" in my language, which means "playing music in front of a mud Buffelo"...
My advice to you will be to ignore argument with these people...
It's called casting pearls before swine in English and many other European languages, as it is a biblical methaphor.
 
#62
I'm talking about Federer apparently peaking in his mid 30s and being so, so unlucky to run into Djokovic... how was he at the peak of his powers at the time?

He was coming back from injury and had an obvious decline in speed. Speed is virtually everything in tennis. How's it possible he is at the peak of his powers?!?! Not to mention he has a lot of mileage. Does mileage not matter anymore? Does that mean Murray's at his peak too? Is everyone constantly at their best today?

Really confusing argument all around. Would love to have it explained.
When we talk about speed, what exactly do you mean ? Speed to get to the ball ? If that is the case, I don't think Federer rely so much on catching the uncathable and unthinkable, I don't remember when anyone called him greatest baseline defender of all times. Federer is good enough for trophy if he is fit. And although I don't think he is in his prime, I do think he can compensate lot of things by his experience and adjusting his game/tactic.
 
#63
Those who still insist 2015 Fed was better than ever and was just unlucky to run into Djokovic, please look back in 2011 when Fed defeated a peak Djokovic in a slam and almost did it a second time. And 2011 was also Djokovic's peak, so this is the best barometer.
It's quite an interesting perspective on it. I was about to say maybe Djokovic's clay peak was later but now I think about it, his level on clay in 2011 was absurdly high going into that French open (Madrid and Rome performances most likely the peak).

2011 and 2012 is the most underrated version of Federer on TT imo.
 
#64
@True Fanerer @BeatlesFan @Tennis_Hands hey fellas, why are you arguing against someone like Dallas or noletheking or other trollers who are so desperate to insult you and federer??
They are not going to understand a single point of yours, or make a valid judgemental argument..
Keeping silence is the best medicine for these trollers....
Arguing with them using rational points is like "भैंस के आगे बीन बजाना" in my language, which means "playing music in front of a mud Buffelo"...
My advice to you will be to ignore argument with these people...
Nobody is understanding a single point of mine. Nobody is addressing the clear fact that Federer rarely hit a FH winner that wasn't a first ball off a serve, rendering this "devastating forehand" a myth.
 
#65
I disagree with your way of communication, but I agree with a substance of your posts.
Unfortunately so many posters have been bruised by the weak era arguments that they have argued themselves into an intellectual cul-de-sac.

For me as a Federer fan foremost it says so much about him that he never gave up, was prepared to make drastic changes, and do whatever he could to stay at the top of the game.

Clearly the bigger racket head has made his ground strokes more consistent which more than makes up for a fractional loss of movement

Instead we have deep thinkers like Mike Danny, who proclaim without giving the issue any thought that you cant play Peak Tennis in your 30’s. Has this guy done a PHD in athletic training. Is he really Pierre Paganini having a laugh after Roger whacks him with all his stray balls in training!?
 
#66
Nobody is understanding a single point of mine. Nobody is addressing the clear fact that Federer rarely hit a FH winner that wasn't a first ball off a serve, rendering this "devastating forehand" a myth.
I think you should be a bit more reasonable about how you discuss all this.

Clearly serve allowed for the put away, but his forehand was and still is a great rally shot.

What is a myth is that the Federer forehand was able to hit winners at will from any part in the court up until 2007 and then mysteriously declined ever since.
 

ABCD

Hall of Fame
#67
Unfortunately so many posters have been bruised by the weak era arguments that they have argued themselves into an intellectual cul-de-sac.

For me as a Federer fan foremost it says so much about him that he never gave up, was prepared to make drastic changes, and do whatever he could to stay at the top of the game.

Clearly the bigger racket head has made his ground strokes more consistent which more than makes up for a fractional loss of movement

Instead we have deep thinkers like Mike Danny, who proclaim without giving the issue any thought that you cant play Peak Tennis in your 30’s. Has this guy done a PHD in athletic training. Is he really Pierre Paganini having a laugh after Roger whacks him with all his stray balls in training!?
I agree 100%.

I think you should be a bit more reasonable about how you discuss all this.

Clearly serve allowed for the put away, but his forehand was and still is a great rally shot.

What is a myth is that the Federer forehand was able to hit winners at will from any part in the court up until 2007 and then mysteriously declined ever since.
I agree 100%
 
#68
Then explain why Kobe Bryant averaged 27 points per game at age 26 in the 2004/2005 season and only 17 points per game in the 2015/2016 season at age 37.

Explain why Michael Jordan averaged 33 points per game at age 26 in 1989/1990 and only 22 points per game at age 39 in 2001/2002.
The game just evolved, man. /s
 

ABCD

Hall of Fame
#71
And when anticipation remains fairly constant, what of the speed, then?
Anticipation usually (usually is important word) improves with experience. You should try to measure Federer's speed during different periods to see if there is any decline. Overall, I can't contradict Federer himself that his peak play is 2015 (or 2015-onward).
 
#72
Also, on Michael Jordan's PPG numbers: The reason he averaged more in the 80s is teams had way more possessions then than later on. NBA scoring in general was much higher then. Look it up.
 
#73
Anticipation usually (usually is important word) improves with experience. You should try to measure Federer's speed during different periods to see if there is any decline. Overall, I can't contradict Federer himself that his peak play is 2015 (or 2015-onward).
Which is fine. I can, and will.
 

Enga

Professional
#75
Isnt it like... some sort of scientific consensus that humans are at their peak abilities in respect to speed in their 20's? While mentally, their peak can be much later, up to the 40's, and also endurance wise, their peak is around the early to mid 30's. At least in males. In MMA for example, a fighter tends to be at their absolute peak in their early to mid 30's.

ATP top level tennis changed in the last several years... not really sure what it is, but I think older males can still compete now. I think it has to do with the speed of the tennis. If the ball is travelling faster through the court, it takes a faster human to get in position to intercept it. If it is travelling more slowly through the court, then speed becomes less important, but endurance is still important which is where the early to mid 30's males excel. It depends on the type of balls and the bounce the court produces. With a higher bounce, you can move further back where your pure speed won't be compromised since you have more time, but you need more endurance for just the sheer amount of shots you're going to have to retrieve.

Also, wear and tear was an issue in previous generations, however it seems that somehow top tennis players have solved this problem, where they can now play an extremely physical game, and not have to deal with as many knee and hip issues as past generations have had to. I'm guessing this has to do with medical advancements, as well as shoes, probably. The right type of shoes can really solve a lot of problems as it pertains to imperfect footwork. It'll just cushion the impact.

I don't really think any of it applies to Federer though. He plays quite aggressively. He's mainly using his racket skills, and is trying to take physicality out of the equation. He's picking up the ball on the rise, and he's doing pinpoint serving. So while the trend is male tennis players are getting older, Federer's ability to continue at a high level has more to do with his racket skills, not his endurance or speed. He is like a McEnroe if McEnroe never lost focus, or had to deal with equipment evolutions over the course of his career.
 
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Lew II

Hall of Fame
#76
Possible factors which allow players to be peak in their 30s:

- racquets didn't change much, allowing older players to master them better than the younger thanks to more years of training

- tennis has reached its peak in popularity so not many new people play tennis, therefore younger players are not more talented than the older anymore

- strength and endurance, which peak in 30s, have become more important with the new racquets

- players keep being motivated due to more money, less injuries, and beatable young opponents
 
#77
There's no argument to begin with. He's wrong and end of story.
Actually...
But even replying to him is an activity giving him attention

It's called casting pearls before swine in English and many other European languages, as it is a biblical methaphor.
Thanks a lot for telling me that my friend.
You deserve an octopus for dinner from me....(octopus made from vegetables though, as I'm vegetarian xD xD xD)
 

Tennis_Hands

Talk Tennis Guru
#79
Never heard that before...
Is it obtained from the "Lew Book of mythological biology" ???
You are incorrect.Endurance improves throughout the mid 30ies.

It has nothing to do with the poster you are quoting. He has a penchant of mixing truths with fallacies or withholding information to create false impressions.

Last time we had a conversation he tried to spin the ranking of Djokovic's opponents using two different definitions, but merging the results of them selectively in one data pool. Without indicating that, of course.

:cool:
 
#84
@True Fanerer @BeatlesFan @Tennis_Hands hey fellas, why are you arguing against someone like Dallas or noletheking or other trollers who are so desperate to insult you and federer??
They are not going to understand a single point of yours, or make a valid judgemental argument..
Keeping silence is the best medicine for these trollers....
Arguing with them using rational points is like "भैंस के आगे बीन बजाना" in my language, which means "playing music in front of a mud Buffelo"...
My advice to you will be to ignore argument with these people...
The "new user" is on ignore, so no worries about responding again. Life's too short to be bored.
 
#87
Kobe and Jordan are not advanced with regard to a particular era. They are advanced with regard to humanity as a whole. They would be NBA stars in any era.

The reason why Kobe and Jordan had much worse stats in their late 30s than in their mid 20s is simply that they declined due to age.

Also, explain why Usain Bolt ran slower in the Olympics 2016 (age 30) than in the Olympics 2008 and 2012 (age 22-26).
Surface homogenization? (kidding)
 

Druss

Hall of Fame
#89
People who believe he played better than ever in his 30's are just simpletons. Plain and simple. No need to debate with those.
Exactly this! Perhaps these simpletons would like to explain why Usain Bolt retired at age 30? I thought 2015-19 with it's advanced nutrition and sports science (compared to 2005-09 lol) athletes are peaking in their mid 30's, so Bolt should have had another 5 years of improving and perhaps run a sub 9sec at age 35 or 37, no?
 

Luka888

Professional
#90
You can't really define the peak. I know, everyone has their own opinions but still. If you base it on results only that's one thing, if you base it on performance it's a different thing. Sure, good performance is connected with good results ... then, you have to look at the competition, the draw, the surface etc.
 

Raiden

Hall of Fame
#91
Those who still insist 2015 Fed was better than ever...
Should not even be taken seriously. And I don't think anyone does. That kinda crazy nonsense idea need not be dignified by a response and anyways no one believes in it in the real world (outside of internet fora).

Almost all athletes peak when they are younger -- only a minority peak when they are older.

As for the ones who did stay on top both during their youth and old age, their peak would almost always be the part when they were young (even while they improve in a certain area of skill).

Logic alone dictates that an athlete is most likely to be at his performance peak when his body is at its peak. The mental side is relatively more stable from the point of view of it being less rapid in it's deterioration as a result of old age and wear and tear.
 
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ABCD

Hall of Fame
#92
Should not even be taken seriously. And I don't think anyone does. That kinda crazy nonsense idea need not be dignified by a response and anyways no one believes in it in the real world (outside of internet fora).

Almost all athletes peak when they are younger -- only a minority peak when they are older.

As for the ones who did stay on top both during their youth and old age, their peak would almost always be the part when they were young (even while they improve in a certain area of skill).

Logic alone dictates that an athlete is most likely to be at his performance peak when his body is at its peak. The mental side is relatively more stable from the point of view of it being less rapid in it's deterioration as a result of old age and wear and tear.
“I think I'm a better player now than when I was at 24 because I've practiced for another 10 years and I've got 10 years more experience,” Federer said. “I might not have the confidence I had at 24 when I was winning 40 matches in a row, but I feel like I hit a bigger serve, my backhand is better, my forehand is still as good as it's ever been, I volley better than I have in the past.” “I think I've had to adapt to a new generation of players again.” (August 2015).
 
#93
“I think I'm a better player now than when I was at 24 because I've practiced for another 10 years and I've got 10 years more experience,” Federer said. “I might not have the confidence I had at 24 when I was winning 40 matches in a row, but I feel like I hit a bigger serve, my backhand is better, my forehand is still as good as it's ever been, I volley better than I have in the past.” “I think I've had to adapt to a new generation of players again.” (August 2015).
I'd like to weigh in, but I don't intend this as a component part of a GOAT debate.

Often, I'm in the middle of these debates because I just try to get it right as a sports fan. I respect Fed's opinion - and he knows his own game, of course - but I think his comments were tinged with optimism (though not delusion). But while I don't think he was at his peak in 2015, or now, he has remained in phenomenal shape, and I don't think he's lost all that much over the years. In an alternative posting environment, he'd be greeted with great adulation for this.

So, he's lost a little speed, and some consistency and endurance, but he's also a more experienced/smarter player.

It's not a perfect comparison, but there are NFL QBs playing close to their very best who are Fed's age, or older - Brady, Brees and Rivers. You can, to some degree, compensate for some speed and power (Fed hasn't lost much) with an even stronger mental game.
 
#94
Mentality counts too. Look at prime Federer. Granted, he was still bad on the BPs, but he had a go-for-broke attitude that faded as the years stacked up. Fed was literally losing confidence against Nadal and Djokovic (mostly Djokovic). The mindset IMO might be just as important. In the 2000s, Fed really believed he could do it. In the 2010s, he was clearly in doubt.
This is a very underrated point imo. Confidence is the most important factor why Big3 all have their years or periods of domination. Of course Roger still could hit a great serve and a great FH in 2015, but you wont win slams if you cant convert BPs, set points and match points. As Becker once said, "the last set isnt about tennis, its about nerves". Federer has also said that it is extremely hard mentally to stay on top for a long time, thats why no player can do it.
 
#95
“I think I'm a better player now than when I was at 24 because I've practiced for another 10 years and I've got 10 years more experience,” Federer said. “I might not have the confidence I had at 24 when I was winning 40 matches in a row, but I feel like I hit a bigger serve, my backhand is better, my forehand is still as good as it's ever been, I volley better than I have in the past.” “I think I've had to adapt to a new generation of players again.” (August 2015).
In the same interview he also said his confidence wasnt the same as earlier, and this is what winning multiple slams is about. No player has been able to stay on top all the time, even not you God Djokovic. After 2011 came 2012-2014, and after 2014USO-2016FO he also had a slump. You cant expect players to win mutiple slams for 10-15 years in a row.
 

ABCD

Hall of Fame
#97
even not you God Djokovic.
I don't have any Gods, we are talking about tennis players here. How anyone can question self-assessment of a player is beyond me. For me, when I heard that statement it was the end of the story. I can't argue with Federer about his game.
 
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#98
I don't have any Gods, we are talking about tennis players here. How anyone can question self-assessment of a player is beyond me. For me, when I heard that statement it was the end of the story. I can't argue with Federer about his game.
Didnt you read my post? In the same interview he also talks about confidence. He says he still can hit a top serve and a top FH, but to win slams you need to convert set points and match points, thats a confidence thing.
 

ABCD

Hall of Fame
#99
Didnt you read my post? In the same interview he also talks about confidence. He says he still can hit a top serve and a top FH, but to win slams you need to convert set points and match points, thats a confidence thing.
“I think I'm a better player now than when I was at 24 ..."
 
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