I don't know if this is the same as footwork. But I've decided that its my movement (or lack thereof) and not necessarily my strokes that are holding me back. I've spent so much time trying to improve my strokes but getting to and putting myself in position to return the ball I think may be more critical. Any advice on useful videos, drills (even ones I can do in my living room) or patterns would be welcome.
How can I improve my movement
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Injured Again
Hall of Fame
Three things that plague rec players are how quickly they recognize which side a shot goes to, how quickly they figure out where they need to make contact with the ball, and then the actual movement to get there.
The first problem is related to split step timing, the second is related to seeing literally thousands of balls coming your way and understanding what went wrong if you misjudge the contact point, and the third is related to understanding the various footwork patterns necessary to get to balls of varying distances and heights from you. Which of these are you struggling with most? I can tell you that for me, it's #2 by a fairly large margin.
Seeing video of you playing points would be very helpful.
The first problem is related to split step timing, the second is related to seeing literally thousands of balls coming your way and understanding what went wrong if you misjudge the contact point, and the third is related to understanding the various footwork patterns necessary to get to balls of varying distances and heights from you. Which of these are you struggling with most? I can tell you that for me, it's #2 by a fairly large margin.
Seeing video of you playing points would be very helpful.
johnmccabe
Hall of Fame
Could be not knowing the ideal contact point, correct court positioning. Could be not knowing the most efficient footwork patterns or actual physical limitations. Get a coach or post some point play videos. Otherwise could easily be wasting time if the diagnosis is wrong.
bailey footwork helped me alot
many folks too lazy or don't know how to take adjusting steps to optimize contact point (maybe don't know where their contact point is?)
i advocate for topspoin pro or bjk eye pro, and do footwork drills from varying differences from contact
liimey86
New User
When I was first learning to incorporate split step, one thing I did was put some court-level pro warmup rally vids on the tv at home, and 'played' the far player. It was quite helpful for learning not to split too early, i.e. learning to land already knowing where to go. Especially with not having to worry about getting a real ball back.
After getting better at that timing, the tv at home method was also helpful for learning a good first drive out of the weighted landing (and unit turn), towards forehand and backhand.
I encounter problems when the ball moves sideways in the air and after bounce. I don't know where it going to finally be when I hit it.
Anticipation - start moving to the spot you think they are hitting to before they even hit.
If you don't already have speed and agility then you need to assess your age and level of health and assess your equipment - shoes, insoles, socks, braces. Then see if you can improve your level of health and level of equipment. Do strengthening exercises for tendons and ligaments, do drills for speed and changing directions. Do cardio so you can have stamina to keep being fast towards the end of a match.
If you don't already have speed and agility then you need to assess your age and level of health and assess your equipment - shoes, insoles, socks, braces. Then see if you can improve your level of health and level of equipment. Do strengthening exercises for tendons and ligaments, do drills for speed and changing directions. Do cardio so you can have stamina to keep being fast towards the end of a match.
How do you develop that skill - anticipation? What a game changer that would be. What if you guess wrong?
Ronaldo
Bionic Poster
It Happens, especially with a lil help
You will guess wrong sometimes, but opponents almost always hit to the open court. If you're on the right side, start running to the other side right after you hit the ball.
You need to pay attention to the patterns your opponent hits. And assess the skill level of your opponent. If they are intermediate level, they probably will hit over the middle of the net most of the time. If they like to hit drop shots, you need to anticipate when and run in right away, and yes you will guess wrong sometimes, but you probably have no chance to get to them if you don't guess. You just have to be good at guessing right by assessing everything that's going on, where you're at, where they're at, do they hit drop shots a lot.
On the baseline, will you run and then they hit it behind you, yes, sometimes. But you won't have a chance to get to the ball on the other side of the court if you don't move early. If the opponent's hitting behind you a lot, you need to move as much as you can to the other side, stop, split step, and move to wherever they hit the ball. Your split step will probably happen only 2 steps away because that's all you have time to move before you need to split step.
Curious
G.O.A.T.
I’m wondering if anticipation is a myth. There’s always a single best spot to recover after every shot hit. You go there and split step so that you can cover every possibility of the next ball your opponent hits. Playing around with different recovery spots would simply mean gambling.
If you start running before your opponent even hits the ball, if he's good at changing directions, he can hit behind you every time. I see my opponent already running, I'm going to hit the ball to the opposite side of where he's running. I just can't see that as a viable strategy.
Curious
G.O.A.T.
He’s running to his recovery spot, what he’s supposed to do.
Injured Again
Hall of Fame
While I've used the word "anticipation", it's not absolutely correct what is going on.
At higher levels of rec tennis, execution of shots becomes consistent through proper footwork and stroke preparation. These are visible before the ball is hit, so those with "good anticipation" notice these signs and may make slight adjustments to favor the ball going to the intended location.
This isn't something necessary in most neutral hitting unless the opponent is just clobbering the ball and can hit it by you if you stay in a neutral position. You don't want to commit to moving in a certain direction if you don't have to. So usually someone who is said to have "good anticipation" is in response to a situation where they are under pressure, yet make the correct decision and are in position to do something on an aggressively hit ball by their opponent.
So a basic example. Let's say you cough up a short mid-court ball. Your opponent runs up to it to hit a forehand approach shot that, because they are close to the net, will put you under considerable pressure. There are a few ways to tell where your opponent is most likely to hit the ball.
First, if they run straight at the ball, it's almost always going to go crosscourt. It's very difficult to run straight at the ball and hit it down the line - if they decide to do that and make it, well, you've made them hit a difficult shot. If your opponent instead runs towards the ball using a "C" shape where they go well towards their backhand side and then move back towards the center of the court to hit the forehand, that shot is most likely going to go to your backhand.
You can also tell by how the racquet is taken back. Most people hitting crosscourt won't need as much shoulder turn as if they were going to hit it inside-out to your backhand. Also, if the ball is close to them, it's more likely to be hit crosscourt. Greater spacing usually means inside-out.
Also, over time, you can see which patterns your opponent wants to do, and what they don't want to do. All of those things can help you anticipate where the ball is going to go, and when you are under pressure you can lean towards that side to get a jump on your shot.
This tends not to work at lower rec levels, where footwork and timing and swing preparation are all over the map. But at these lower levels, the ability to hit a forcing shot is not as great either. At the highest rec levels, disguise becomes an issue, but usually disguise comes with a slightly less effective or consistent shot. So you want to force your opponent to do the more difficult thing while you cover the most likely thing. If you guess wrong, you guess wrong. Put that into your database for the next time that situation comes up.
Injured Again
Hall of Fame
There is not one best spot to recover to. There are multiple spots to recover to depending on numerous factors, including what you can do with the ball, what you want to do with the ball, and what kind of position your opponent is in. Using multiple recovery positions is useful at higher rec levels to coerce your opponent to do things they don't want to. For instance, I have a plus forehand for my rating and my age. Most opponents will try to minimize the number of times I get to hit a forehand. So I recover more towards my backhand corner, to shrink the area they try to hit into and to draw errors.
Even at intermediate levels, multiple recovery positions should be used.
Injured Again
Hall of Fame
Rec players are not good at hitting to a different spot if they have to choose at the last moment. They will be distracted by trying to keep an eye on you and therefore not on the ball, and stroke prep is different depending on where you are intending to hit the ball. This is why a good doubles player who is very active at the net is so disruptive and why they draw so many errors.
Injured Again
Hall of Fame
If you are running towards your recovery spot when your opponent hits the ball, you are on the extreme defense and likely to lose the point no matter what. In that situation, it's much better to do a skip step (not a split step) to be able to respond should that next ball come near you. If you are running, you won't be able to prepare for any shot.
No, I get that. But the presumed idea is you're not running to recover after you hit the ball (you've already done that), but then getting a jump start and running to where you anticipate the ball is going. That's totally different.
Curious
G.O.A.T.
I meant moving to the recovery spot by running. I believe you need to have completed your recovery by the time your opponent hits the next ball, even though you’re not quite there yet.
Brilliant
Curious
G.O.A.T.
I guess those are tactical nuances but in general as soon as you hit a shot there’s usually one single best recovery spot.
Injured Again
Hall of Fame
Basically, that's true. Your whole idea is to get that ball back into the court using whatever method possible. Even if you are way out of position, you need to make some sort of compromised split step in order to be balanced enough to make some sort of swing. And when playing, your goal should be to force your opponent to compromise their recovery position and footwork as often as possible.
Injured Again
Hall of Fame
No, there is not just one best recovery spot.
Let's say you hit a crosscourt backhand from the singles sideline corner and three feet behind the baseline. Where do you recover to? To just left of the baseline hash mark?
What if you hit a really good backhand and your opponent is running hard to reach the ball? Don't you want to recover to a position inside the court in case he just gets his racquet on the ball and it comes really short?
What if you hit a crosscourt backhand a little short and your lefty opponent is standing there looking to really wallop the ball? Don't you recover to a deeper position?
What if you hit a crosscourt backhand and your opponent, a moonballer, is likely to throw up a shot that you might be able to take out of the air? Don't you recover to a shallower position so you can maybe take that ball out of the air more easily?
What if you hit a crosscourt backhand and you are up 40-0, but you know that your opponent likes to be the alpha male on the court and hates to have a ball hit past him. Wouldn't you recover more to your backhand side so you might be able to take a chance on a strong forehand winner to frustrate him?
It's a crosscourt backhand you hit in every one of these cases, right?
Curious
G.O.A.T.
Good point. Didn’t think much about depth while figuring out recovery spot. Probably one of the reasons why I still struggle in my recovery. It’s relatively easier and more intuitive to recover laterally. Depth is tricky as it’s very situational as explained in your examples.
StringSnapper
Hall of Fame
is 3 "footwork patterns" really a thing? ive always thought yes you need 1 and 2, but 3 just moving in an athletic base is all you need
StringSnapper
Hall of Fame
agreed, i think there are edge-cases where you need o anticipate though. i.e. your opponent has a sitter over the net. you're not going to react to that, you'll need to guess
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
Are you performing a split step (SS) on most, if not all, of your opponent's ball contacts? .
You can quickly move toward the open court or toward your optimal recovery position (dependent on where you hit your last shot) early. But once your opponent is about to start their forward swing, you want to be moving using a sidestep movement. Then execute your SS hop during their forward swing so that you are at the top of your hop when they make contact with the ball. That way you will land shortly after the ball has left their racket.
Are you moving to the correct recovery position after you hit your shot? If you hit a cross court shot, you normally only need to take a couple of steps to recover since you do not need to get all the way back to the middle.
Perhaps you are hitting too many DTL shots. Could be why you find yourself getting to the ball late. When hitting a DTL shot from a deep position (near or behind your own BL), your ideal recovery position will be on the other side of the center mark. You need to move much further after a DTL shot than after a x-court shot for your ideal recovery position. Quite often, after a DTL shot, you won't have enuff time to reach your ideal position. You will often end up executing a SS near the center mark on the BL rather than your ideal position.
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
If your opponent has started their forward swing, you should not normally still be running to an "ideal" recovery position. You should, instead, start your SS hop before they make contact.
badmice2
Professional
Adding fuel to the fire.
In addition to the split step (@Injured Again), knowing the height and depth of the incoming ball would help you decide how you need to move to get behind the ball. The biggest mistake all beginners make is not observing the incoming ball enough to determine the incoming bounce. You cannot react to your contact point and shape of your swing as the ball is rising - that’s too late.
As to knowing how fast or slow to move, a reference point I always suggest is 1-3-5 - know your position within 1 step, 3 steps, and 5 steps, will give you a reference to your court position quickly to react.
In addition to the split step (@Injured Again), knowing the height and depth of the incoming ball would help you decide how you need to move to get behind the ball. The biggest mistake all beginners make is not observing the incoming ball enough to determine the incoming bounce. You cannot react to your contact point and shape of your swing as the ball is rising - that’s too late.
As to knowing how fast or slow to move, a reference point I always suggest is 1-3-5 - know your position within 1 step, 3 steps, and 5 steps, will give you a reference to your court position quickly to react.
Injured Again
Hall of Fame
You've posted videos and of the ones I have watched, a fundamental problem with your recovery has to do with footwork/technical issues during the striking of the ball. As an example, in live ball play, probably 80% of your forehands are hit off your right foot, with your left foot in the air and dangling. Your weight is falling backwards and that hinders your recovery. In order to recover from a shot to your forehand, your left foot should be on the ground so that the right foot can to pivot to the outside of court and can push you off back towards the center of the court. Your tendency is to be falling backwards and then you take a huge swipe at the ball to try and generate ball speed that further throws you off balance because you're already on one foot and your body eight is falling backwards. That puts you so off balance that you need a couple of steps just to regain balance and be in a position to recover. By that time, your opponent is getting ready to hit the ball and you have no time to recover.
johnmccabe
Hall of Fame
This stuff is probably for 4.0+ only. 3.0-3.5 players have much bigger holes in their games to patch.
badmice2
Professional
Respectfully disagree. The holes for any level are movement related. Being able to hit the ball is not the same as hitting a well struck ball. you cannot deliver a meaningful swing if you cannot setup in a balanced position.
johnmccabe
Hall of Fame
I was specifically talking about anticipation and tactics related fine tuning of recovery positions. Movement is super important but I haven't seen any 3.5 players who do decent recovery without any other major technical deficiencies.
badmice2
Professional
I get your point, but thats precisely the problem…they’re not taught to recover and don’t have a clue. Therefore they’re losing matches simply because they’re out of position. At 3.0/3.5 if you’re not athletically gifted these are the points you’re losing. As I explained to someone early this week, you don’t need to fast to have great movement, you just need to know how to move into position sooner. If you can short cut your positioning for the next shot simply because you recover faster, isn’t that speed gain?
Curious
G.O.A.T.
I see. I use this one foot pivot/reverse one foot pivot far too often as he demonstrates from 2:54 here.
Injured Again
Hall of Fame
Footwork patterns are no different than stroke technique patterns. You need stroke technique patterns to get the racquet to the ball so you can hit it where and how you want to. You need footwork patterns to get your body to the ball with the correct orientation, positioning, and spacing so you can execute your stroke technique pattern. Notice how often you read of people on the forum saying they can shadow swing a beautiful stroke but when the ball is in play, it falls to pieces. Or how many people say they can hit great against a ball machine but can't do the same when they have to move to the ball. Both of those are strongly influenced by poor footwork/footwork patterns.
The unfortunate thing is that many/most rec players work on their stroke technique and don't do the same amount of work on their footwork patterns. It's a significant reason why there are guys with beautiful strokes stuck at the same level with guys who have terrible looking strokes but get balls back into play. It's just hard to beat defensive players if you can't hit the ball well enough because your body isn't in position to let you make proper swings on a consistent basis.
Injured Again
Hall of Fame
I have no idea who this guy is, but in my opinion that is a terrible video and terrible advice. It might be why that guy only has just over 2.5k subscribers.
How often do you see Novak, Sinner, or Alcaraz hit a forehand with their left foot way up in the air if they have time? Sure they do it, when under extreme pressure. You see Coco Gauff do but she has severe fundamental issues on her forehand. Do you want to imitate someone with severe fundamental issues on their forehand?
Injured Again
Hall of Fame
This is, in my opinion, excellent advice. Especially about knowing your position with a certain number of steps. It's one of the drills I work a lot on when using a ball machine. I try to have a two-step setup for every groundstroke. If I have to move to the ball, I want to end up so that I can replicate that two-step setup to hit the ball. That means I have to know how far I can go with one additional step, two additional steps, and three additional steps. Unless you practice these footwork patterns, you can end up getting to the ball on the wrong foot, or having to shuffle/stutter step to get back to the correct foot, which takes time you may not have.
By practicing these patterns, you also know how much time it takes to execute the number of needed steps. That lets you then decide if you can possibly move into the court to be aggressive, or if you maybe have to move backwards to give yourself a little extra time.
Curious
G.O.A.T.
I guess he shows all possible contact moves. I just use that particular one far too often most likely because of poor ball judgement/positioning. I’m not choosing to use it on purpose but you could also say I have a bad habit of doing that.
onehandbh
G.O.A.T.
The sooner you start moving (after hitting your shot), the slower you can move. This is where players with a good soccer/football background have an advantage.
You'll find that as you recovery positioning and anticipation improves, you have more time and don't have to move as quickly/urgently to reach your opponent's next shot.
Also, the better your shot is, the less options and time your opponent has to hit a quality shot that puts you on the defensive.
You'll find that as you recovery positioning and anticipation improves, you have more time and don't have to move as quickly/urgently to reach your opponent's next shot.
Also, the better your shot is, the less options and time your opponent has to hit a quality shot that puts you on the defensive.
Listen to a lot of Carly Simon
socallefty
G.O.A.T.
Often I have to tell students not to run to the ball when it is wide or short as they often don’t stop at the right place and jam themselves. Like you said, early anticipation can result in measured steps and stopping in a balanced position with proper spacing so that you can extend your arms and hit the ball early with authority.
socallefty
G.O.A.T.
I agree with you, but the ideal recovery point (IRP) is in both the lateral and vertical direction. Many coaches will teach the lateral IRP for CC and DTL shots early to a beginner, but they will wait for the student to develop further before teaching the nuances of ideal recovery position in terms of depth as it depends on the quality/depth of your shot plus your preferred tactical strategy and not just the direction. If you have a bigger strength/weapon on one wing or you like to come to the net, your IRP may be different than for another player.
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Injured Again
Hall of Fame
Over the years, you've gotten a lot of advice on how to do things properly. The wonderful thing about tennis is that it is an impartial judge as to whether or not any of us act on the knowledge before us, or we let things get in the way and stall our progress.
Curious
G.O.A.T.
Overloaded with tips and knowledge, trying too many things.
Maybe the search never ends.
Injured Again
Hall of Fame
I was thinking about this a little bit as I was working out at the tennis club, and thought I would respond. Apologies for what is an overly long post.
Like any tennis skill, learning is a progression of doing the basic things, and then adding complexity step by step to build up the whole. It is the same with footwork patterns, and recognition of the scenarios in the examples I used about the crosscourt backhand. It's not something that you can say "I just made 4.0 - now I'm going to do these things". You have to be trying to do them all along, so that when a skill level is achieved where these types of nuances are necessary, there's already a foundational understanding that can be built upon.
Let me give a personal example. I've been a lifelong singles player. What doubles I did play I was often paired up with a partner who was very skilled in doubles and let me "play singles" while he cleaned up at the net. I've captained our club's 55+ 9.0 team several years and despite being one of the better singles player on the team, I was undoubtedly the worse doubles player, including the 4.0's who were playing up. It's not that I don't have the strokes. I can serve, hit overheads, and volley like a typical 4.5. My first doubles competition match was at the 4.0 level probably 18-19 years ago, and I was like a fish out of water. I didn't know where or when to move, didn't know how to poach, and didn't understand the nuances of how to support my partner. Practically every time I tried to poach, my timing was off and I'd either get burned behind me, or I'd miss the shot. It was so bad that I basically gave up and just stayed put. At the 4.5 level, it's even worse and smaller mistakes are jumped on mercilessly. So again, I basically just stayed put when my partner was serving. It's hard to win when one partner has to cover 60% of the court.
What I missed out on is the progression of learning doubles at a slower pace. Most players play doubles and mixed doubles from the beginning, and start to figure out when to poach, how to move cooperatively with your partner to cover the court, how to hit shots to set up your partner. I never had that and got thrown in at a level where learning that progression wasn't possible - I have to think too much and consequently flub a LOT of makeable shots.
So, I've taken the step of getting in with a bunch of 3.5 guys in doubles. Even there, a number of guys understand poaching and movement better than me. But the pace is a little slower, and being practices, the pressure is less to win. So I'm gradually learning the nuances of when to move, what signs to look for. The last time out, my partner was at the baseline and I made a volley to my opponent who was also at the baseline. For the first time ever, I instinctively realized he was going to go at my partner and I crossed and put a volley away. I had done it before but always had to think about it. This time I moved because I just knew. Small victories, but I feel good that I'm getting the doubles foundation built so that I can actually use my stroke skills at a level of play closer to where I hope to be.
socallefty
G.O.A.T.
Have you ever thought of learning doubles systematically like you learned singles from a coach who specializes in that and from doing doubles drills instead of just playing matches? Rare to have such a level difference for someone who can play 4.5 singles.
I’ve played singles all my life, but started playing doubles only about 15 years ago. But I straightaway enrolled in group drills and doubles specialist coaches to learn doubles because I always recognized that it is an entirely different sport. My doubles level caught up to my singles level within 3-4 years as a result and as I age, I am probably better now at doubles as it is easier physically in my mid-fifties to beat younger guys in doubles than in singles. There are a lot of good books out there like ‘The Art of Doubles’ or videos by the Bryan brothers and successful doubles coaches, although I always recommend live coaching as the best way to learn.
Injured Again
Hall of Fame
Aren't you a doctor? If so, I'm sure you get overloaded with new medical knowledge. Do you try all these new things on your patients? Or do you stick with the simple, known stuff that has been shown to work?
I'm sure you remember that I contributed a lot to your threads in past years, but gave up because I got burned out. I just came to the conclusion that you want to sabotage getting better at tennis and I didn't want to go on that journey with you. I'm actually kind of regretting even these last few posts. I'll just end it by saying that your search was complete years ago. It's just a matter of whether you want to act on the information that is already before you or if you want to continue along the path you've been following these past years.
Curious
G.O.A.T.
I understand your frustration with me. Thanks for your help so far.
Injured Again
Hall of Fame
Learning systematically is what I'm trying to do now. I've got several guys who have been super kind to help me out. They're my age, and two of them were #1 singles player at my D1 school in the years I was there. They still play at an extremely high level and have taken me under their wing, for which I am extremely appreciative. One of them primarily plays doubles now with multiple time gold-ball winners, and so we will do doubles drills. If it's more or less scripted, I can do fine. But the randomness of live play, at the speeds that come with that level, are overwhelming. I'm not used to the angles that balls come at from and especially when I'm close to the net like I'm almost never in singles, and lots of shot placements that are instinctive in singles are wrong for doubles. There's too much uncertainty and thinking that happens during the point, and I become an error machine because of that. I do feel that playing with the current group of 3.5 doubles players has worked the best. I'm figuring it out, building the foundation.
But as much as I am irritated by my doubles ineptitude, it hasn't been a priority. I tore up my knee two years ago and last December had a knee replacement. I get to play 65's in 2016 and believe I will have a sizable physical and ball striking advantage over most anyone that will be in that age category so my priority is in being ready to play singles in 15 months. And these guys have been helping me with that more than doubles. If everything goes according to plan, I'll be down in your neck of the woods probably from January through April taking in as many of the tournaments down there as I can. Maybe we can get together for some doubles and you can help me along there too.
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