How can I improve my serve?

tricky

Hall of Fame
It doesn't force you to hit the ball way out to the left, what it does do is force you to rotate your torso further and faster, which pulls your shoulder forward further and faster, which gives you an even lower racquet drop, and which also loads more energy into the ssc system which allows you to internally rotate your shoulder a lot faster.

What Sampras's move does is reduce the amount of lateral movement necessary in order for the racquet to come over the top. This does two things. First, it means more racquet speed will go into pace and topspin, than sidespin. It also means that the movements related to pronation occur earlier in the service motion, which increases the racquet speed into the ball. The downside is that it sets your initial hip position at a unusual angle, which is maybe not what you want when you're reconstructing the serve.

I'm not being disingenuous here Tricky, I really and truly amn't, but I have no idea what you mean by leading with the elbow.

Basic arm motions involved with swing sports (esp. true in baseball nowadays) go through stages of abbreviation. First, the movement is traced or led by the hand, which is necessary to code into your muscle memory the basic shape and coordination of the movement. Then, in most arm related motions, there's usually one stage of abbreviation where then the movement is traced or led by the elbow, which is also associated with having a "loose" or "relaxed" grip. In some motions, there's one more stage of abbreviation, where now the movement is traced or led by the shoulder.

The rationale for these stages isn't really for the sake of having a tighter stroke; it's that it enables the shoulder to rotate more freely. That is why abbreviation steps naturally lead to lower racquet drops; without the impingement of guided/tracked elbow deviation movements, the shoulder muscles can properly stretch and contract with much less restriction, thereby releasing more energy.

but it's the kinetic chain that which is responsible for loading the reflex action, which is what gives you more racquet head speed.Your post seems to agree with me on this point although your initial statement doesn't.

Where I disagree is the implication that this leads to a direct casual effect for racquet speed. If the racquet drop is executed incorrectly, you can execute the hip rotation and leg drive perfectly, but little of it will load into the shoulder. That is the underlying argument for the "learn arm motion first, worry about leg drive later" stance. It's not so much that leg drive "only contributes" another 10-20mph from the serve -- it's that leg drive is only one part of the kinetic chain and has less influence over the racquet speed than the shape of the backswing/takeback, level of abbreviation, and above all, a well executed proper body sequence of the racquet drop. It's considered only after the arm motion is nailed down.
 

BeHappy

Hall of Fame
Ok, wow..that's a lot of work you did BeHappy. I definitely owe you a video...If you saw it I think what you said here doesn't apply:

"whereas at the moment you're reaching your maximum knee bend position way before your arm reaches the trophy position, (pointing straight up towards the sky" is not what's actually happening.

I think when I reach my maximum knee bend I have already tossed up the ball high and am waiting for the right height of the ball. The thing is, I don't even have a trophy pose. I immediately start dropping my tossing arm, as many people have observed so far in this thread.

maybe you should try the other normal trophy position, if it has no effect on your racquet drop then keep using it.



I don't think you answered my 90 degree chong position question. The Sampras pictures don't look like he has his feet at a 90 degree angle...


.


I can only assume that's the camera angle, and his coach didn't say '90' degrees, he said up to 90 degrees, so maybe it's 75+, and it isn't his feet, it's only 1 foot, that's the right foot which is at 90 degrees to the baseline.
 
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BeHappy

Hall of Fame
What Sampras's move does is reduce the amount of lateral movement necessary in order for the racquet to come over the top.

I'll have to look at a few videos to understand this.


It also means that the movements related to pronation occur earlier in the service motion, which increases the racquet speed into the ball.

if this reduces the time it takes for the racquet to get to the ball as you say it does, wouldn't movements related to pronation occur later?


The downside is that it sets your initial hip position at a unusual angle, which is maybe not what you want when you're reconstructing the serve.

why not, the more prerotated your hips are, the more potential rotational energy contained therein.


Basic arm motions involved with swing sports (esp. true in baseball nowadays) go through stages of abbreviation. First, the movement is traced or led by the hand, which is necessary to code into your muscle memory the basic shape and coordination of the movement. Then, in most arm related motions, there's usually one stage of abbreviation where then the movement is traced or led by the elbow, which is also associated with having a "loose" or "relaxed" grip. In some motions, there's one more stage of abbreviation, where now the movement is traced or led by the shoulder.


The rationale for these stages isn't really for the sake of having a tighter stroke; it's that it enables the shoulder to rotate more freely. That is why abbreviation steps naturally lead to lower racquet drops; without the impingement of guided/tracked elbow deviation movements, the shoulder muscles can properly stretch and contract with much less restriction, thereby releasing more energy.

This is new to me, doesn't John Yandell say that a completely non abbreviated takeback is optimal for the most relaxed shoulder possible?

This isn't an argument, I'm not saying you're wrong because I don't know anything about this.

Where I disagree is the implication that this leads to a direct casual effect for racquet speed. If the racquet drop is executed incorrectly, you can execute the hip rotation and leg drive perfectly, but little of it will load into the shoulder. That is the underlying argument for the "learn arm motion first, worry about leg drive later" stance. It's not so much that leg drive "only contributes" another 10-20mph from the serve -- it's that leg drive is only one part of the kinetic chain and has less influence over the racquet speed than the shape of the backswing/takeback, level of abbreviation, and above all, a well executed proper body sequence of the racquet drop. It's considered only after the arm motion is nailed down.

Ok, well let me just make certain we are in disagreement.

Do you disagree with this:

Assuming the depth of the racquet drop is the same in both instances, wouldn't a fully connected 'kinetic chain' cause the racquet to be rotated externally to the drop position faster, therebye storing more elastic energy, lessening strain on the shoulder and allowing for faster internal rotation adn a more powerful shot?
(as opposed to an instance where the racquet drop is done totally by the shoulder like Hyogen)
 

tricky

Hall of Fame
if this reduces the time it takes for the racquet to get to the ball as you say it does, wouldn't movements related to pronation occur later?

No, before pronation (or, rather, the movement loosely associated with the "pronation" of the serve), the body has to be almost squared up with the ball. Due to his hip positioning, he squares up a lot earlier, so the pronation starts earlier. That's why Sampras looks like he's violently hooking the ball in his finish.
Roddick pronates a lot too (and he has also a painful looking finish), but his comes from a different mechanism.

why not, the more prerotated your hips are, the more potential rotational energy contained therein.

Mmm . . . the problem is there's no element to release the hip rotation passively. So even if you apply a hard stretch, there's no ballistic twist to release that potential rotational energy. The hip largely defines the stages of the movements, influences the degree of stretch applied to the legs and arm, and works as an active trigger. Or to put it another way, it defines the line toward the ball and the length of that line. The longer you can drive into the ball, the more racquet speed you will accrue.

This is new to me, doesn't John Yandell say that a completely non abbreviated takeback is optimal for the most relaxed shoulder possible?

This isn't an argument, I'm not saying you're wrong because I don't know anything about this.

Ah, yeah, it's different meanings toward "abbreviated." When Yandell is speaking of abbreviated, he is referring to Roddick's straight takeback style. When I am speaking of abbreviated, I'm speaking in a more general term, because degrees of abbreviation occur through both FH and BH strokes too.

Yandell is right about Roddick's straight takeback, which is a really upside-down smile pattern. It simplifies the swing because you can racquet drop and draw from almost the same slot. But, in doing so, it somewhat impinges the shoulder rotation that's possible. So, for example, Roddick doesn't have the same left-right flexibility in his ball toss. Not without changing his body position and tipping off his stroke to a really good returner.

A lot of Roddick's power comes from not the straight takeback, but that he can abbreviate his backswing to primarily shoulder rotation and turn. The fact that the straight takeback is a less complicated (if not theoretically "ideal") motion probably makes it easier to do. Now, many of his peers who use similar movements -- Nadal and Gasquet -- do a straight takeback with the elbow. They don't have anything like his power, but they have similar issues (in particular, Nadal) with service flexibility.

ssuming the depth of the racquet drop is the same in both instances, wouldn't a fully connected 'kinetic chain' cause the racquet to be rotated externally to the drop position faster, therebye storing more elastic energy, lessening strain on the shoulder and allowing for faster internal rotation adn a more powerful shot?

Yes, you're correct. A properly connected kinetic chain largely reflects the mediation between the arm the hips. It's a bit catch-22. A properly connected kinetic chain will facilitate a passive stretch in the shoulder. But it's also true that a passively stretched shoulder will drop more than an shoulder that is "lowered" through an active or concentric contraction.

What happens is that if you manually execute the racquet drop by actively lowering the hand while the hip begins to open, you are no longer stretching your shoulder. So, essentially, the entire backswing/takeback you just made to set up the trophy position gets wasted. Now, usually you will notice for two things. 1) your racquet drop won't be as good as when you tried just the arm motion (Sharpy's situation.) 2) You will feel like there's no rhythm or continuity in your stroke, and thus you'll "arm" the motion to "correct" the stroke. As a result, for most people, the difficulty is in the arm motion.

Degree of racquet drop comes from three places. A) Relative freedom of shoulder rotation, which is tied into how the backswing was executed. B) Degree of bend in the back, which is influenced by shape of backswing and forward drive. C) Well connected transition from trophy position to racquet drop.

BTW, BeHappy, you did a really good job assessing Hyogen's work.
 

rfprse

Professional
So here's a very long way to go about this . . .

How does the toss fit into this sequence? Does this sequence require the toss to be done before the start of backswing?

It seems that the traditional "racquet up together" toss/back swing starts/(almost completes) the back swing first then moves on to the hip rotation/leg bend. Does this make the chain broken? Or as long as the racquet drop is initiated by hip rotation, it's fine?
 

hyogen

Hall of Fame
Tricky, Behappy if you don't mind please take a look at my serve.. feel free to point out any areas of concern..

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Hxb3lvWcXhc front
http://youtube.com/watch?v=IzcAOJ5f-io&mode=user&search= side view

If you guys need some specific frames just ask.

hyogen,
you may be able to learn some stuff from the serve. Like the problem you have with the actual stance/arm motion/etc.

Now, some of you have complimented me as having "one in a million shoulder"? Was I mistaken or do you really think I have that good of a shoulder for serving...or natural ability or whatever...
This guy (Sharpie) seems to have really good racquet drop as well. Is my shoulder really that special and deserves all this attention and feedback so I can improve it? I would really like to know -_-

Wouldn't you say that Sharpies serve seems significantly better than mine?

Maybe I have had all of you fooled by the screen shots...but when you saw the youtube videos on the previous thread, you're like....ohhh nevermind this guy sucks. -_-
 

tricky

Hall of Fame

You got a nicely abbreviated motion Sharpie. Taking back with the shoulder?

1) Okay, right now, you're taking back with the arms, then having the hips follow. You want the hips to go first -- hips first for everything, really. When you're ready to initiate the racquet drop, start from the hips as well. You'll also get a deeper knee bend and better synchornization between the trophy position and that knee bend.

2) When you're setting up the trophy position, imagine doing about 80% of the complete motion (i.e. the half circle) you'd normally do to get the full trophy position. Hold that position. When you turn the hips to intiate the racquet drop, complete the final 20% of that motion and then go into the upward swing (or top half of circle/C.) This will help give you the automatic racquet drop you've been looking for.

It seems that the traditional "racquet up together" toss/back swing starts/(almost completes) the back swing first then moves on to the hip rotation/leg bend. Does this make the chain broken? Or as long as the racquet drop is initiated by hip rotation, it's fine?

Nah, the order has to be the same in windup and launch. I know a lot of people start the swing first and you do see some big servers (i.e. Becker), who go arm first, then body. But I think it's more common that the big servers are already well into their knee bend prior to their trophy position being fully set up. And this is the case because their hip rotation came before the arms. This was also true of Sampras. It looks like he's going arm first, but in his case, he separate the hand, he lowers the racquet, and then the takeback occurs. His true takeback doesn't occur until after the hips are already rotating. If he paused between the racquet and takeback (such as Goran) it would be more clear.

Goran's body sequence is really, really interesting. Instead of using hip rotation to mediate the weight transfer, he uses a very long stride. That works really well too.

Wouldn't you say that Sharpies serve seems significantly better than mine?

I really like Sharpy's service motion. I think he's on the cusp of a breakthru. :D
 

hyogen

Hall of Fame
where are you behappy? can you look at the vids and answer the questions a couple posts above this? thanks!
 

tricky

Hall of Fame
When you're setting up the trophy position, it looks like you start with a low straight takeback (with palm facing ground), and then you rotate around the wrist to bring the racquet up. If you're doing this, then you gotta remember that it's really the overall arm motion (esp. the shoulder lifting up ) that pivots the racquet up.

Looks like you're split stepping in your leg drive. That sequence is all wrong, because you're trying to intentionally jump in order to drive the serve.
 

BeHappy

Hall of Fame
where are you behappy? can you look at the vids and answer the questions a couple posts above this? thanks!

I'm pretty sure I did already.

btw, your serve is very slow because your technique is bad, but with a loose shoulder like the one you have you have the capacity to serve very powerfully, but that will never happen unless you make it happen.

ps, how tall are you?
 

Geezer Guy

Hall of Fame
Sorry if this has been mentioned before. I just found this thread, and have not read every entry.

In the second sequence it appears your head is looking away from the ball before the racquet makes contact. Keep you head up and your eyes on the ball until after contact.
It looks like you ARE doing that in the first sequence, for whatever that's worth.
 

BeHappy

Hall of Fame
Sharpy Service Motion

you have a good service motion sharpy,

it can be improved though

because,as noted by tricky, you take your racquet up before you start leaning on your front foot, you don't get as much knee bend, and therefore power as you could/should.

try overcompensating, try not taking your racquet up until you're halfway towards as much weight on your front foot as you can handle without toppling over.

you have a seriously good motion though
 

hyogen

Hall of Fame
I'm pretty sure I did already.

btw, your serve is very slow because your technique is bad, but with a loose shoulder like the one you have you have the capacity to serve very powerfully, but that will never happen unless you make it happen.

ps, how tall are you?

so far i've been trying to work on the trophy (it's going ok...but it messes up my timing a bit)...and also I'm trying to hit a more flat serve for first serve.

Also I'm trying to look over my shoulder when i serve (point shoulder towards opponent) so I can twist more.

It's going ok--i'll post more videos later. I'm 5'10.5" or so...
 

ananda

Semi-Pro
Technical question: did you take your pics with a digital cam that snaps continuous still pictures or did you take frames from a video? What software did u use?
You may also open the movie file in Quicktime and Export as a Movie Sequence. For a 8-10 second serve video, you will get about 40-50 jpgs.
 

sharpy

Banned
You got a nicely abbreviated motion Sharpie. Taking back with the shoulder?

1) Okay, right now, you're taking back with the arms, then having the hips follow. You want the hips to go first -- hips first for everything, really. When you're ready to initiate the racquet drop, start from the hips as well. You'll also get a deeper knee bend and better synchornization between the trophy position and that knee bend.

2) When you're setting up the trophy position, imagine doing about 80% of the complete motion (i.e. the half circle) you'd normally do to get the full trophy position. Hold that position. When you turn the hips to intiate the racquet drop, complete the final 20% of that motion and then go into the upward swing (or top half of circle/C.) This will help give you the automatic racquet drop you've been looking for.


tricky,

When exactly should you think about turning the hips back on the serve? At the start of the motion, before the tossing arm goes up, or???

When you mean turn the hips first, do you mean do this before you move the arm at all on the service motion?

Also, how much should you turn them?
 
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hyogen

Hall of Fame
damn...holding a trophy pose messes my entire serve/timing/toss :'(

I also have trouble giving cold shoulder...I think my serving starting position is too open and not closed enough (so i can't get that twisting motion-Coil)
 

ananda

Semi-Pro
hyogen.
i have also been working on the trophy pose, and i found after a lot of shadow serving, and thinking I had got it, when i went to court, my toss was not in synch... i was hitting too early.

then i tried tossing first and then getting into trophy. and it was working fine.

so now i am shadow serving at home with a toss first, so the whole motion gets ingrained.

but at this stage, i feel it is essential to do some shadow serving on court, too, before actually serving.
otherwise, my mind goes onto the ball, and i forget the motion of knee bend etc and just go after the ball.


someone on one of these threads mentioned that it is important to first have the arm motion correct, before getting into the knee bend and jump.

FYB has one video just on racquet drop at the end of the serve videos.
 
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Ross K

Legend
same Q twice...

hyogen,

Also I'm trying to look over my shoulder when i serve (point shoulder towards opponent) so I can twist more.

Please can you clearly explain this. I don't quite get what you mean, but it sounds interesting. Cheers.


tricky,

Goran's body sequence is really, really interesting. Instead of using hip rotation to mediate the weight transfer, he uses a very long stride. That works really well too.

Please can you clearly explain this. I don't quite get what you mean, but it sounds interesting. Cheers.
 

hyogen

Hall of Fame
hyogen,



Please can you clearly explain this. I don't quite get what you mean, but it sounds interesting. Cheers.

so basically turning my shoulders....looking over my shoulder at my opponent. My opponent sees the back of my shoulder...instead of seeing both shoulders and chest in a more open stance.

with this twisting motion of entire trunk of body and legs while opening up this closed shoulder position--i hear that's how you get your power from other ppl who have commented on this thread.

i'm just having trouble getting used to that and tossing, tophy posing, and timing and hitting right now.
 

Ross K

Legend
so basically turning my shoulders....looking over my shoulder at my opponent. My opponent sees the back of my shoulder...instead of seeing both shoulders and chest in a more open stance.

with this twisting motion of entire trunk of body and legs while opening up this closed shoulder position--i hear that's how you get your power from other ppl who have commented on this thread.

i'm just having trouble getting used to that and tossing, tophy posing, and timing and hitting right now.

Isn't this the recomended position anyway (ie, a tad more sideways in your stance and a little less open is the norm?

Anyway, I know what you mean regarding the difficulty in coordinating the various components.... actually, the way you've described it ('twisting motion', etc), I wonder if it might aid fluidity and pace if you were to think of the motion as being like a corkscrew... no... an upwards spiralling motion that culminates in a sudden explosive forward throw... (or something?!

Seriously, it would be great to have some mental tip such as the above (only better of course) to help. I sometimes find that just one imaginative and insightful tip can dramatically speed up your learning process.

Where's tricky when you need him?!... If you do read this tricky, can you help?
 

tricky

Hall of Fame
Seriously, it would be great to have some mental tip such as the above (only better of course) to help. I sometimes find that just one imaginative and insightful tip can dramatically speed up your learning process.

Where's tricky when you need him?!... If you do read this tricky, can you help?

It really helps to look at the whole thing as aiming up at the ball, or at the sky. Not just when you're coming out of the racquet drop but also when you're setting up the trophy position and turning the body.

Will has a great clip of this in his Fuzzy site, where he demonstrates the difference between throwing the racquet forward (incorrect) and throwing the racquet straight up in the air (correct.)

What you want to do is emulate this exercise. Instead of using a racquet, use a sock with a tennis ball in it.

First, initiating through the hips, practice a service motion by throwing the sock forward (without releasing the sock.) Observe how your stance is really open, your racquet drop is not automatic, and that your body is well facing the net before the arm comes around. That's kinda where most of us are when we're first learning the serve.

Now, again initiating through the hips, practice a service motion by aiming/throwing the sock toward the sky and just slightly forward. Observe how your stance closes, how far your hips tilts and turn away from the net, how your trophy position is set up, and how your racquet drop becomes more atuomatic. Notice that when you set up your racquet drop, your hips/shoulder are perpendicular with the net. Notice as your arm comes around, there's strong pronation action and there's strong leg drive upwards.

The above is what you want. You do that a few zillion times in front of a mirror to make sure your body orientation and sequence are all set. THEN you pick up a racquet and start hitting balls.

When exactly should you think about turning the hips back on the serve? At the start of the motion, before the tossing arm goes up, or???

Hips should start before the left hand releases the racquet.

Also, how much should you turn them?

All the way. When you stop, that should be the point where you hold the trophy and have reached your lowest position. The more hip turn, the more theoretically you load into your swing. So somebody like Sampras, who has a really strong hip turn (facilitated by his unique step pattern), is going to crank big on you.

Please can you clearly explain this. I don't quite get what you mean, but it sounds interesting.

Yeah, Goran's serve looks kinda like a volleyball serve without the jump. Most people turn the hips away from the net in order to load up, and then initiate through uncoiling. Instead of this, Goran uses a different sequence.

1) Goran has his feet very far apart and shifts all weight toward back foot. The toes of front foot are off ground.

2) To initiate serve, he shifts his weight forward and brings his front foot down.

3) Once he's started the shifting of weight, he starts setting up the trophy position, aiming toward the sky.

4) Because he's shifting his weight forward and his body is aiming up upwards, his back foot will come in.

5) He cranks his serve by pushing off the feet. In his case, there's almost no pause.
 

BeHappy

Hall of Fame
4) Because he's shifting his weight forward and his body is aiming up upwards, his back foot will come in.

.


chicken and egg?

BTW, look at Mardy fish's serve, he uses SAmpras's exact motion combined with moving his feet like goran.
 

tricky

Hall of Fame
Fantastic stuff. I'll carefully go through it later. Thanks as ever.

Yeah, it kinda puts everything together. First learn the basic arm motion to hit the ball forward. Then, you learn to twist and drop your body, so that you're aiming upwards at the ball, while keeping to roughly the same arm motion.

Visualizing it that way makes things much easier. You'll find that the leg drop and everything else comes together naturally, and then you can work on the details.

This also applies for Roddick's serve too.

1) First, practice throwing the sock forward with an American football style throwing motion. Don't worry about the funky feet or anything, just work on throwing overhand and throwing with primarily the shoulder.

2) THEN, practice aiming the sock toward the sky and throwing upwards. That's Roddick's motion, almost down to the funky foot step, right there.
 
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Ross K

Legend
tricky,

Everything you say makes sense and seems clear. I'll incorporate the sock/ball excersize starting Monday. I've already seen the vid in question you referred to regarding the upwards motion on serve (and not just forwards.) I've also recently actually begun doing one or two regular similar-type things for my serve, so it should fit in fine (although I still usually have a racket in hand as opposed to a sock!) Interestingly, I've become far more aware of and capable of harnessing (I think anyway) that core region of hips, lower trunk, and chest.

On a different though related matter, as I have an abbreviated (or certainly semi-abbreviated) service motion, is there a pro you'd recommend me look at whilst attempting to once and for all get my service to a proper level? I know all about Roddick of course, but for various reasons - (including the fact his mechanics are far more complex, idiosyncratic, and generally harder to put together successfully than people often give credit for) - I don't want to look at him really. I'm thinking Henin here definitely... Gasquet maybe... possibly Nadal... semi-abbreviated... pretty straightforward motion... a relatively simplified motion... and I must say, Henin appears very straightforward and simple to try and emulate...

Anyhow, basically, if you feel so inclined, I'd love it if you could just mention the key mechanics you see in Justine's motion (or whoever's), a little analysis and breakdown, you know what I mean. But if you can't be arsed... hey, absolutely no worries!

Cheers,

Ross
 

sharpy

Banned
Ross,

I'm not tricky, but a good player to copy in my view is sampras or federer. I don't know how on earth i would hit the roddick serve...

It would be interesting to find out how henin hits her serve though, can't wait to hear tricky's explanations its as if this guy sees something nobody else does....

by the way, tricky you were right about the hip initiation on my serve.. still struggling with the timing of the transition between trophy and racket drop.

When you say 80% of the motion first, then unload hips, then should you purposely try to complete the other 20% by bringing the racket up with the elbow/shoulder?? I find this really strange and actually I think takes away from the passive drop.. no?
 

Ross K

Legend
Ross,

I'm not tricky, but a good player to copy in my view is sampras or federer. I don't know how on earth i would hit the roddick serve...

I'm enquiring about the likes of Henin and Gasquet, and not the (impressive) likes of Sampras or Fed because, like the first two, I use a semi-abbreviated serve motion and don't want to change that. Plus the 2 I mention appear to have pretty straightforward motions (Henin's looks very simple)... BTW, I said I didn't want to emulate A-Rod.
 

tricky

Hall of Fame
When you say 80% of the motion first, then unload hips, then should you purposely try to complete the other 20% by bringing the racket up with the elbow/shoulder?? I find this really strange and actually I think takes away from the passive drop.. no?

Yeah, it's hard to describe without pictures. The "throwing at the sky/up at ball" model is actually the same thing. Basically, this is the line of reasoning.

At first, you try a throwing motion as if you're throwing a ball in front of you. This isn't the correct service motion, obviously, but it's more or less the correct backswing and it helps you learn to sync the hips with taking the racquet back and the racquet drop. The backswing looks roughly like half of a "reverse C", and its axis is parallel with the ground. But, really, the axis of the C is parallel with your line of sight. Just as if you're drawing a bow or throwing a football or a fish line.

Then, you learn to "aim" upwards or for the sky. Now, the trick here is that this "C" backswing is no longer parallel with the ground. It is still parallel with your line of sight, but because your line of sight is now upwards, your backswing is now tilted in that direction.

The above sounds confusing, but if you kinda visualize how somebody aims when throwing a football or a baseball from center field, you'll notice that the basic arm takeback works this way. This is how people naturally throw.

That is the rationale for throwing a lot prior to practicing service motion. If I ask you to throw something upwards and really far away, you intuitive tilt your takeback, so that when you release from the hips, the arm drops and launches out.

1) If I ask you to imagine a target well in front of you, you will have a longer arm takeback and you will show your back more.

2) If I ask you to imagine a target well above you, your knees will drop lower and you will arc your back more.

You will have no problem initiating a passive drop through the hips. And if you lift your left arm as a balance, your right arm will naturally set up into a trophy position.

The trophy position is a natural product of the arm takeback when it matches your line of sight, and when the takeback is synced with your ball toss. This comes without thinking. When you don't have a "natural" trophy position, then it's likely that something in your takeback is off. Usually it means that your takeback isn't tilted toward your line of sight, which is often the case because people see the trophy position setup as parallel with the ground, while they're trying to hit a target that is well above them.

I'm enquiring about the likes of Henin and Gasquet, and not the (impressive) likes of Sampras or Fed because, like the first two,

I like the overall look of Federer and Gasquet -- the simplified style, which is shown by Fuzzy's site -- but what goes on with their legs and hips is different than the majority.

Henin's model is interesting, because I think she, with an almost straight arm, leads the takeback with the shoulder rather than with the elbow. Very few people do this -- neither Federer nor Sampras do this, for example. She uses a traditional, C-style "circular" motion, but the C/circle is led with the shoulder, and so it looks almost like a "diagonal" takeback. I think Sharpy's learned to do something similar. Roddick uses a shoulder-drive motion, but his backswing is the upside-down smile pattern or "football"/overhand style. Again, because it is so abbreviated from the shoulder motion, it looks straight.

There's big upside to this style (deeper racquet drop, great racquet speed, more pronation) -- and I feel it's why Henin can crank out serves with such a small frame (like I always say with Henin -- if she were 5"" she'd dominate the tour) -- but it is more difficult to master. And usually you'd go through a progression. First, you learn to takeback with the hand, which gives you a very large swing. Then you learn to takeback leading and pivoting with the elbow, which gives you what most pros do. Finally, you can abbreviate it one more step by leading/pivoting with the shoulder.

If you want to try a Henin style straight-out, first start with a straight arm (though elbow not locked out), then swing in cartwheels with that straight arm around the shoulder. This gives you the feel that you want.

Then again with a sock or a ball, practice throwing from the shoulder with an almost straight arm. First throw forward. Then, practice aiming really, really high and throw upwards. Finally, add in the left arm as if tossing the ball. Observe how the takeback is diagonal, and how the hip initiates the racquet drop.

Ideally, you want to also feel it in the upper pecs. If it's really clicking for you, you should feel a pull in the upper pecs when you initiate from the hips.
 

Ross K

Legend
Great tricky. I do need to reread your Henin analysis just to make I'm properly understanding you - but thank you. I think I'll also take some more looks at some of the Henin serve vids to see if I can find some appropriate correlations with your breakdown of how you see it.

Oh and BTW, have tried those 'sock excersizes'/throwing it up skywards, as recommended previously, and to good effect I think. I feel I'm experiencing a far greater sense of expansion and contraction around that core area; a pronounced and clearly discernible pull or stretch right across my back; and the sense of my backswing being way more circular and dynamic. Today at practice my topspin serve really was firing (unusually for me.) Yep... I'll definitely be continuing with this!

Thanks again for your input.

Ross
 

tricky

Hall of Fame
Oh and BTW, have tried those 'sock excersizes'/throwing it up skywards, as recommended previously, and to good effect I think.

Yeah, if you do a search in Tennis Tips for "sock", you'll find various people recommending it. I used to just throw balls, but this worked out better for me.

One of the nice things about this exercise is that you learn to adjust your body by changing your line of sight. If you visualize that the target is very high and far away, then naturally you'll bend your knees to explode upwards into the target. And this make sure that the rest of your body follows suit as one unit.
 

Ross K

Legend
... Henin's model is interesting, because I think she, with an almost straight arm, leads the takeback with the shoulder rather than with the elbow... She uses a traditional, C-style "circular" motion, but the C/circle is led with the shoulder, and so it looks almost like a "diagonal" takeback... And usually you'd go through a progression. First, you learn to takeback with the hand, which gives you a very large swing. Then you learn to takeback leading and pivoting with the elbow, which gives you what most pros do. Finally, you can abbreviate it one more step by leading/pivoting with the shoulder.... If you want to try a Henin style straight-out, first start with a straight arm (though elbow not locked out), then swing in cartwheels with that straight arm around the shoulder. This gives you the feel that you want.

Right. I think I follow you on the Henin motion, and I'm also curious enough to want to try it to see how I fare with it.

Just as importantly though, I've never learnt before of the 'progression' you mention. I find this extremely interesting and wish I'd been made aware of those distinctions before. (I guess I've been leading with my hand all this time even though I've been abbreviating the motion for a long, long time...?... hmmm... is this correct form therefore?...)

Anyway, hopefully the vid posted here will open properly, and if there's anything else you or anyone else feels is noteworthy about it please post our observations.

And BTW, anything else on takeback with hand/pivot from elbow/pivot from shoulder I'd be keen to hear it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Vkb2_3nFVU
 

tricky

Hall of Fame
Just as importantly though, I've never learnt before of the 'progression' you mention. I find this extremely interesting and wish I'd been made aware of those distinctions before. (I guess I've been leading with my hand all this time even though I've been abbreviating the motion for a long, long time...?... hmmm... is this correct form therefore?...)

It's kind of something that most people learn on their own, as they repeat the same motion again and again. When you're first learning the FH, BH, serve, etc., you lead with the hand because you're trying to understand how the whole motion works. Usually the backswing or loop is big, and you do a lot of "arming" of the ball. Which is fine, because you're learning the stroke. But, if you probably notice, when you're "arming" the ball (i.e. leading by hand), you get tennis elbow and you have issues with cadence and rhythm (i.e. inefficient kinetic chain.) That's when you work on progressions or "abbreviating" the stroke.

It's not about having a more compact stroke, per se. Each progression enables your kinetic chain to load more energy into your shoulder and forearm rotation. And that's what is key to generating racquet speed and spin. It just happens to lead to a more compact stroke, valuable in its own right.
Roddick's motion is misunderstood in that people look at the overhand motion and conclude that's why it is "abbreviated." Most people don't realize that Roddick is also taking back the racquet with primarily his shoulder, which is what makes it so compact and gives him incredible "in/out" rotational speed. Moreover, while this it is more easily done in Roddick's overhand style, this can be applied to a traditional service motion, which is similar to what Henin does.

And BTW, anything else on takeback with hand/pivot from elbow/pivot from shoulder I'd be keen to hear it.

Here's one way to try a "shoulder-centric" takeback. It helps to have already practiced circular throwing motions before trying this.

First, with that sock, concentrate on a "forward" throwing motion.

1) For the takeback, you want to move your right shoulder as far away from the left shoulder as possible.

1A) First, initiate takeback with the hips.

1B) Then, start pulling your right shoulder away from the left shoulder, make sure your right shoulder is always under your left.

1C) You want to feel the stretch in your upper pectoral.

1D) As you takeback, start lifting your left shoulder to simulate a ball toss. Again, as you takeback, make sure the right shoulder remains below the left.

1E) Practice this takeback a few times until you can consistently feel that stretch in your upper right pec in your takeback. And remember to always begin with the hips.

2) To initiate the racquet drop and swing, put your right shoulder "over and on top" of the left shoulder.

2A) I got the above visualization from a Bruce Elliot article; it helps to produce the correct/full shoulder rotation for the serve.

2B) You know you're doing this correctly if your whole body is now leaning
over to your left. Also, you should get good pronation too.

2C) Once you're comfortable with this, then imagine swinging out a slot as you put your right shoulder over and on top of the left shoulder. This gives you optimal pronation and increases the looseness/whippiness of the motion. You can also visualize a fence near your back as you swing out of the racquet drop. The narrower the slot or the closer the fence, the more racquet speed you'll see.

Once you've practice the above for awhile with a sock, then start aiming for the sky. Now, if you do this correctly, you'll notice that your arm motion starts to resemble a lot like Henin, rather than Federer or Sampras. Also, you'll notice that the combination of the takeback and your line of sight will help you naturally control your knees. You don't even have to think about it.

When you're comfortable with all that, then pick up a racquet and have fun! :D
 

hyogen

Hall of Fame
sigh......this really sucks.

I can't serve any more. Don't have the pop for my first serve anymore, nor the spin for my 2nd topspin serves. Man, they were so reliable for me before!

I could serve really well with the TT warrior (but i think it gave me tennis elbow so I got rid of it)...

tried out the Pure Drives and could serve really well...

Even the FXP prestige team i was serving pretty well (not as well as the TT warriors)....but I got rid of that too b/c I didn't like the FXP that much...

Now I've been playing with really flexy frames like the MG radical, radical pro, prestige classic MP, i.prestige Mid, Radical Tour OS..........

And GAH, I CAN'T GET MY SERVE BACK. I can get some topspin on my second serve, but not nearly as much confidence or kick....

Makes me want to go back to a Warrior or another stiff racquet again D:
 
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Ross K

Legend
Cheers tricky. I can see I'll be practising your shoulder-centric takeback routine (complete with sock and ball!) in the next few days... and for those who may mock, I can only say that if your serve just isn't doing the job, you might just want to grab hold of a large sock, stick a tenis ball down it, facing flush repeatedly throw the sock from behind your shoulder forwards, and then do the same thing but throw that sock upwards... Regularly doing the latter (with accompanying knee bend) has given me a far better understanding of what the desired takeback should really feel like. I'd also add that, although it's early days, I'm pretty sure my serve feels more powerful and fluid.

BTW, I haven't personally been previously exclusively leading with my hand as such. It's more a case of being unconscious of the precise mechanics of how one puts more shoulder in it, or utilises the elbow pivot, or whatever. (Basically, I suspect I've been employing poor technique and flitting in and out of all 3 modes.) But, as someone, admittedly a 'self-teacher', who has NEVER come across these precise terms in a good few years of intensive tennis book and especially internet study (TTW, other tennis sites, the internet at large, etc) to now hear it actually articulated thus really seems to be very effective indeed.

BTW2, tricky, if you don't mind, could you please clarify this statement re Henin takeback:
She uses a traditional, C-style "circular" motion, but the C/circle is led with the shoulder, and so it looks almost like a "diagonal" takeback.
... I'm with you all the way until 'So it looks almost like a 'diagonal' takeback?'

Many thanks,

Ross
 

tricky

Hall of Fame
... I'm with you all the way until 'So it looks almost like a 'diagonal' takeback?'
Henin's takeback kinda looks like she takes the racquet from the waist to the trophy position in a straight line. "Shoulder-centric" takebacks tend to look straight, but she is still observing a circular motion around the shoulder. Also you'll notice that the upper arm often moves behind the body in the takeback; this also helps your body tilt upwards and your legs to drop. The overall look is different than what you see in most instruction.

Elbow-centric takebacks kinda look like you first elbow the person behind you, and then you kinda "back slap the sky" to set up the trophy position. But, again, this is kind of an illusion too. It's still a circular motion, though the circle is traced around the elbow. When done this way, it resembes the clips (Sampras especially) you see of most people as well as the examples at fuzzy.

Hand-centric takebacks (i.e. arming the serve) often looks like they're doing "extra stuff" to get the racquet drop. Also, it often looks like they're exerting effort as they initiate the racquet drop. This is where most of us start out.

If you want to experiment a bit, this kinda helps:

In all backswings, you want to move right shoulder away from left shoulder, and keep it under the left. To initiate racquet drop, you take the right shoulder over and on top of left shoulder.

1) Elbow-centric backswing: You use the elbow to pull the right shoulder away from the left shoulder. You'll concentrate on the movement of the upper arm, as it makes a circular motion through the stroke.

2 ) Shoulder-centric backswing: You use the right shoulder to pull on the right upper pec, which will move it far away from and below the left shoulder. You concentrate on the right shoulder making a circular motion around the right upper pec.
 
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sharpy

Banned
2) When you're setting up the trophy position, imagine doing about 80% of the complete motion (i.e. the half circle) you'd normally do to get the full trophy position. Hold that position. When you turn the hips to intiate the racquet drop, complete the final 20% of that motion and then go into the upward swing (or top half of circle/C.) This will help give you the automatic racquet drop you've been looking for.

Tricky,

It sounds here like your saying to complete 80% of the windup first, then unload the hips, and finally last minute you conciously do the other 20% and this will somehow also get you an automatic drop...
Am i getting you right here?

I've been trying the above but i've also found that my racket drop isnt as deep as it could be yet and it feels like im arming the serve a bit this way
 
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tricky

Hall of Fame
I've been trying the above but i've also found that my racket drop isnt as deep as it could be yet and it feels like im arming the serve a bit this way
Yeah, it was meant to model what a circular backswing is like when you're trying to swing up (because you're swinging upwards instead of forwards, the axis of the backswing is not parallel with the ground.)Which is, erm, hard to convey on the net.

But I realize that it's much easier to split it up into two steps. First, get the basic arm motion down, swinging forward, so that you're used to the basic body sequence and the racquet drop. And then work on how the arm motion tilts with the body, so that then you're swinging upward. Your arm motion will resemble the "80/20."

The "shoulder over shoulder" works really, really well. That really surprised me. It more succinctly describes how the external rotation works, and it helps to make the racquet drop more automatic.

What happens is that, when you try to put "shoulder over shoulder", this automatically causes you to initiate from the hips. When you initiate the takeback with the hips, visualizing "shoulder over shoulder" tells your hips it needs to turn over the left side of your body, so that the right shoulder can come over. That causes the hips to go first, and then the shoulder to follow, and it happens almost in unison. Regardless of where the ball is, your arm motion remains pretty smooth and automatic.

That's the thing about serves. It's much easier to convey what's going on with forehands and backhands, but talking about the serve is a bit like learning how to make a tie. So I apologize for the mixups! :D
 
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sharpy

Banned
Yeah, it was meant to model what a circular backswing is like when you're trying to swing up (because you're swinging upwards instead of forwards, the axis of the backswing is not parallel with the ground.)Which is, erm, hard to convey on the net.

But I realize that it's much easier to split it up into two steps. First, get the basic arm motion down, swinging forward, so that you're used to the basic body sequence and the racquet drop. And then work on how the arm motion tilts with the body, so that then you're swinging upward. Your arm motion will resemble the "80/20."

The "shoulder over shoulder" works really, really well. That really surprised me. It more succinctly describes how the external rotation works, and it helps to make the racquet drop more automatic.

What happens is that, when you try to put "shoulder over shoulder", this automatically causes you to initiate from the hips. When you initiate the takeback with the hips, visualizing "shoulder over shoulder" tells your hips it needs to turn over the left side of your body, so that the right shoulder can come over. That causes the hips to go first, and then the shoulder to follow, and it happens almost in unison. Regardless of where the ball is, your arm motion remains pretty smooth and automatic.

That's the thing about serves. It's much easier to convey what's going on with forehands and backhands, but talking about the serve is a bit like learning how to make a tie. So I apologize for the mixups! :D


yeah. definately. you must have stated over 50 visualizations over this thread about getting the racket drop. also with your feel-based terminology combined with lack of pictures theres 100000's of possibilities of messing something up in the stroke....:)

so what's the key visualization now?

initiate windup with hips, then think of doing shoulder over shoulder to initiate the racket drop?
 

tricky

Hall of Fame
also with your feel-based terminology combined with lack of pictures theres 100000's of possibilities of messing something up in the stroke....
Exactly. There is The Way, but if I explain The Way, it is not The Way. Never reveal the Wu Tang. :D

initiate windup with hips, then think of doing shoulder over shoulder to initiate the racket drop?
Yup.

1) Windup: Start with Hips.
2) Arm takeback: Shoulder away from shoulder. (Make sure back shoulder stays below front shoulder.)
3) Body takeback: Aim for sky.
4) Racquet drop: Shoulder over shoulder.
 
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hyogen

Hall of Fame
sigh......this really sucks.

I can't serve any more. Don't have the pop for my first serve anymore, nor the spin for my 2nd topspin serves. Man, they were so reliable for me before!

I could serve really well with the TT warrior (but i think it gave me tennis elbow so I got rid of it)...

tried out the Pure Drives and could serve really well...

Even the FXP prestige team i was serving pretty well (not as well as the TT warriors)....but I got rid of that too b/c I didn't like the FXP that much...

Now I've been playing with really flexy frames like the MG radical, radical pro, prestige classic MP, i.prestige Mid, Radical Tour OS..........

And GAH, I CAN'T GET MY SERVE BACK. I can get some topspin on my second serve, but not nearly as much confidence or kick....

Makes me want to go back to a Warrior or another stiff racquet again D:

lol no one pays attention to me in my own thread anymore! D:

Well anyways, I'm almost back to my original serving consistency and speed. Had to go back to a stiff racquet--the puredrive cortex plus....lol
 

Ross K

Legend
Q's for tricky

Okay. It was a nightmare on serve today. Played with a new frame for the first time (obviously not ideal.) But really I think it's because I'd begun trying to make changes vis a vis recent posts ^... (I really wanted to get that Henin motion down pat and firing!)... Big mistake! Now I realise why I've left my serve well enough alone for the last few years!... Wo... once you start tinkering with takebacks and the like - uh-oh! Here comes trouble!... (I know - I've only got myself to blame!)... The truth of the matter is my previously consistant, reliable and low-powered serve is probably prefferable to the horror-show I was performing, free of charge, to the hushed players stood upon the adjoining courts!

Anyway... sock and ball time... that excersize of yours... in light of what I've just said (and my obvious need to get back to basics), would you a) still advise the simple throwing the sock skywards drill?... And if so, wouldn't it then be just a case of then replicating the motion with a frame?

Then b). If I still really wanted to try out that Henin motion regardless (although TBH, I still don't quite understand what's happening with the takeback arm and how to co-ordinate it with everything else. It's been a little confusing for me... like the straightarm, windmill motion you advised practicing?... I totally get the shoulder-led feeling doing this, but when in the real motion you have to drop your racquet down the back, that circular, windmill, straightarmer is obviously bent?... There's also this thing about the takeback being diagonal, or in a straight line... what does this mean?! :confused: ... How is the racquet being taken back exactly? To which exact position? How is she straightarming it? How is she giving it more shoulder? Etc...) Forgive me but this is frustrating because I intuit that it's a key image - possibly the key image to the Henin serve as far as I'm concerned - and I'm not quite picturing this properly... Sorry tricky, I'm not worthy!... I do wish I understood you a bit more on this one though...

Care to give it one last try?!;)
 

Ross K

Legend
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGJOiBOQZwo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Vkb2_3nFVU

Okay. Here's how I might describe the JH takeback.

She takes back to a relatively high point quite straight up and behind - (hence, with the tossing arm straight up also, it sometimes appears she creates a very pronounced V shape ) - and then, after the racquet drop, fires upwards and forwards from the shoulder. The result is a slightly upright, linear, straightforward, and - in her case - crisp looking, fired-from-the-shoulder motion.

Tricky, everybody, please feel free to add any comments. (And BTW, it's the finer detail about precisely how that takeback arm is brought back that's been my problem.)

Cheers all (and I promise I'll be exiting this thread very shortly there-after!)
 
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