How can Sinner become more popular?

KennyoFatoBoiyo said:
I've literally never been banned so not sure what you're on about to be honest. I only joined the forum a week ago ...But anyways my point stands settle down if only a little.
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Wow son, a new user joining the forum and starts attacking me straight away lmao. Now leave me alone or I'll report you
 
Nothing, he should just be himself. If people try to mold him into someone else I'd hope he'd tell them to go f**k themselves
 
Midaso240 said:
Nothing, he should just be himself. If people try to mold him into someone else I'd hope he'd tell them to go f**k themselves
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Changing style and looks is not becoming someone else. Did Fed become someone else when he changed his style from ugly pony tail to cool hair with a stylish bandana?nope!
 
NeutralFan said:
Changing style and looks is not becoming someone else. Did Fed become someone else when he changed his style from ugly pony tail to cool hair with a stylish bandana?nope!
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Federer's pony was super effeminate, at that time I had a very bad view of him compared to the roddicks and hewitts before 2003, however I was forced to warm up to Federer since he started to win over them, later when he removed the pony he was the Fed we all liked wholesome.
 
Just win baby, just win!

Lack of any discernible grunt, his gentle demeanour, his overall game, his sportsmanship…what more could one ask for from a fan? Maybe a ohbh, but can’t have everything!

Look forward to 30 slams from this kid.
 
GAS said:
Sinner can be more popular if Italians are fan of his. Unfortunately he's not a real Italian...
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lol, have you been in Italy recently ? People are just crazy about him.
Razer said:
Federer's pony was super effeminate, at that time I had a very bad view of him compared to the roddicks and hewitts before 2003, however I was forced to warm up to Federer since he started to win over them, later when he removed the pony he was the Fed we all liked wholesome.
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You had a 'very bad view' of him because he had a ponytail and it looked effeminate to you ??
 
randomtoss said:
lol, have you been in Italy recently ? People are just crazy about him.

You had a 'very bad view' of him because he had a ponytail and it looked effeminate to you ??
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Yes he looked effeminate to me... with roddick, hewitt and gang wearing their caps backwards a guy with a pony certainly looked out of place to me.
 
ActualTennisPlayer said:
Also Djokovic is quite polarizing. One reason for that is that there is a negative bias against Serbians in the west.
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This has been repeated here endlessly in the past 16 years and it's so idiotic. Nobody outside of Serbia knows or cares where Serbia is, where it's located or anything else about it. Nobody has any bias towards a country unknown to 99.9% of the rest of the world. Does the west hate Latvians, Croatians or Lithuanians too? Do tell.
 
BeatlesFan said:
This has been repeated here endlessly in the past 16 years and it's so idiotic. Nobody outside of Serbia knows or cares where Serbia is, where it's located or anything else about it. Nobody has any bias towards a country unknown to 99.9% of the rest of the world. Does the west hate Latvians, Croatians or Lithuanians too? Do tell.
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So Western Europeans (Scandinavians, Germans, Swiss, British, Austrians, Dutch, etc.) clearly know where Serbia is and have a negative bias against Eastern Europeans in general, including Serbs. Polish jokes are very common for example. Brexit was also a backlash against Eastern European immigration.

I think over time this negative bias has decreased. However it is still present against Serbians IMO whose country is economically and politically much less developed than other eastern European countries. On top of the west did fight a war against them and they are seen as aligned with Russia.

I say that as a Western European btw

Edit: I never used the word hate btw. That’s too strong
 
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The only thing Sinner needs is better celebration of points and more communication with the audience. When that is combined with the constant winning of titles, his popularity will soar and surpass Alcaraz.
 
ActualTennisPlayer said:
So Western Europeans (Scandinavians, Germans, Swiss, British, Austrians, Dutch, etc.) clearly know where Serbia is and have a negative bias against Eastern Europeans in general, including Serbs. Polish jokes are very common for example. Brexit was also a backlash against Eastern European immigration.

I think over time this negative bias has decreased. However it is still present against Serbians IMO whose country is economically and politically much less developed than other eastern European countries. On top of the west did fight a war against them and they are seen as aligned with Russia.

I say that as a Western European btw
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Djo himself is more than capable of creating a negative image of himself. You are underestimating his own capacity to be disliked and overestimating people's (especially outside Europe) knowledge of history and geography.

His fans, first by unnecessarily attaching too much nationalism to the player and then by blaming the country's imagined negative image for his own follies, are actually doing a great disservice to the country.
 
_phantom said:
Djo himself is more than capable of creating a negative image of himself. You are underestimating his own capacity to be disliked and overestimating people's (especially outside Europe) knowledge of history and geography.

His fans, first by unnecessarily attaching too much nationalism to the player and then by blaming the country's imagined negative image for his own follies, are actually doing a great disservice to the country.
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I think if you read my first post again you will see that what you “accuse” me of is mostly false:
“Also Djokovic is quite polarizing. One reason for that is that there is a negative bias against Serbians in the west. Another one is that he has some controversial views. On top of that djokovic is quite emotional on the court and does break some rackets.”

I said the bias against Serbians is one reason - not the only one. I also gave three reasons related to his “own capacity to be disliked”. Therefore I dont underestimate that.

I wrote in my post bias against Serbians in the west. That was a mistake. I should have written bias against Serbians in Western Europe, Scandinavia and the UK - I did this correctly in the post you quoted.

I think you are incorrect when you say I’m overestimating people’s knowledge of history and geography. The bias against Eastern Europeans in Western Europe comes a lot from immigration. Think of it like the bias against Mexicans in the US or like the bias against Italians and Irish in the US in the past.

On top of that Europeans are quite knowledgeable about European history and geography. The Yugoslav wars were pretty big - after all they were the first major European wars after WW2. It’s actually pretty similar to the Ukraine war - which is also a big topic in Europe.
 
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The situation with Serbia is not great...

Balkan has been used by Europa for centuries to shield against Turks and other muslim countries and has trafitionally been more poor than the rest of Europe.

At the war Serbia was given the title of The Boogeyman. Serbia got the blame and was bombed by NATO except it wasnt NATO. It was just a few countries with no jurisdiktion but bombs fell.

After the war only Serbian war criminals were cinvicted in Haag.

Kosovo was an old Serbian region and it's now independant but with strong ties to Albania and the Serbian minority is not being treated well.

Serbian people are angry and they shot the only decent politicians they has. Since then It's been very corrupt.

The west doesn't understand the mentality and the west doesn't adresse the anger Serbians have from the war.

Let's just say the relationship could be better. Not really a lot of cakes for birthday's.
 
ActualTennisPlayer said:
I think if you read my first post again you will see that what you “accuse” me of is mostly false:
“Also Djokovic is quite polarizing. One reason for that is that there is a negative bias against Serbians in the west. Another one is that he has some controversial views. On top of that djokovic is quite emotional on the court and does break some rackets.”

I said the bias against Serbians is one reason - not the only one. I also gave three reasons related to his “own capacity to be disliked”. Therefore I dont underestimate that.

I wrote in my post bias against Serbians in the west. That was incorrect. I should have written bias against Serbians in Western Europe, Scandinavia and the UK - I did this correctly in the post you quoted.

I think you are incorrect when you say I’m overestimating people’s knowledge of history and geography. The bias against Eastern Europeans in Western Europe comes from immigration. Think of it like the bias against Mexicans in the US or like the bias against Italians and Irish in the US in the past.

On top of that Europeans are quite knowledgeable about European history and geography. The Yugoslav wars were pretty big - after all they were the first major European war after WW2. It’s actually pretty similar to the Ukraine war - which is also a big topic in Europe.
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These days there is hardly any bias against Serbians for those wars. However, if a player from Serbia and their devotees consistently display traits such as grudges, victimhood, or sneakiness, and you dislike them for those characteristics, that is a different matter. Was Ivanovic disliked? Or was Dokic disliked when she defeated Hingis at Wimbledon in 99? As a Croat, Ivanisevic was well admired. Iga, I don't think, ever complains about being Polish. Many -ova's have become megastars.

If you still believe it was a contributing factor to Djokovic's popularity problem, then please explain how it doesn't affect Jokic.

In terms of geography and history, most people have vague knowledge. If you don't have any connection to the Balkans, I can almost certainly say that you'll find it difficult to pinpoint FBiH, Srpska, Vojvodina and Kosovo on a map without labels, or describe the difference between BiH and FBiH. Explaining why it was a bad idea for Djokovic to bring attention to Srpska last year through relocation of his tournament would be more challenging.
 
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_phantom said:
These days there is hardly any bias against Serbians for those wars. However, if a player from Serbia and their devotees consistently display traits such as grudges, victimhood, or sneakiness, and you dislike them for those characteristics, that is a different matter. Was Ivanovic disliked? Or Dokic disliked when she defeated Graf at Wimbledon only a year after? As a Croat, Ivanisevic was well admired. Iga, I don't think, ever complains about being Polish. Many -ova's have become megastars.

If you still believe it was a contributing factor to Djokovic's popularity problem, then please explain how it doesn't affect Jokic.

In terms of geography and history, most people have vague knowledge. If you don't have any connection to the Balkans, I can almost certainly say that you'll find it hard to pinpoint FBiH, Srpska, Vojvodina and Kosovo on a map without labels.
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So all else being equal, I think being Serbian hurts for a players popularity. That’s what I mean with bias against.

As I said before, hate is a strong word. Disliked I think is also a strong word. I think not liked is more accurate - it’s uncool and unsexy to be from the east and, hence, you have less supporters.

On top of that I think if you are controversial, you will be even more controversial if you are Eastern European. This is something Zlatan Ibrahimovic claimed https://www.goal.com/en-sa/news/ibr...ank-theyd-defend-me/46wrq1i359tz15wowmcz3q9lq

To your examples:
- I think the bias is only there for men, not for women.
- for a lot of Eastern European countries, there is not a big bias anymore, especially among younger people. When I grew up stereotypes and jokes about poles being criminal was common. Now not anymore.
- there was never a bias against Croats.
- Jokic is in the US. As I said, I don’t think Americans have a bias against Serbians. Though I do think he would be more popular if he was American.

You are absolutely right that the nationalism of Djokovic supporters hurts him. But interestingly the croat soccer team is also super nationalistic and nobody cared about that.
 
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ActualTennisPlayer said:
So all else being equal, I think being Serbian hurts for a players popularity. That’s what I mean with bias against.

As I said before, hate is a strong word. Disliked I think is also a strong word. I think not liked is more accurate - it’s uncool and unsexy to be from the east and, hence, you have less supporters.
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I disagree. Djokovic, with Rafa's attitude and team around him, would not have any problem being equally popular.
ActualTennisPlayer said:
On top of that I think if you are controversial, you will be even more controversial if you are Eastern European.
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It has nothing to do with being Eastern European. When you come from a relatively smaller community or country (in terms of power), your controversies are less tolerated, unfortunately. It's a hard fact. When England and Australia dominated cricket financially, players from those countries could get away with many controversies. Players from India or South Africa didn't have that luxury.
ActualTennisPlayer said:
To your examples:
- I think the bias is only there for men, not for women.
- for a lot of Eastern European countries, there is not a big bias anymore, especially among younger people. When I grew up stereotypes and jokes about poles being criminal was common. Now not anymore.
- there was never a bias against Croats.
- Jokic is in the US. As I said, I don’t think Americans have a bias against Serbians. Though I do think he would be more popular if he was American.
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Women are out, Croats are out, Jokic is out. We only have Djokovic in the circle now, so maybe it's not a systematic bias. :)
ActualTennisPlayer said:
You are absolutely right that the nationalism of Djokovic supporters hurts him. But interestingly the croat soccer team is also super nationalistic and nobody cared about that.
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It is the "national" team, so they can exhibit some nationalism. As long as they don't sing and dance for a greater Croat nation, it's acceptable I guess.
 
this thread is laughable considering how guys like Borg Bjorg were actually... boring, only carry by good looks, and his games were no better not more fantastic than Sinner.

It goes along to what i've always said. personality doesnt matter, being good looking is everything (job, dating, frienship etc...)
 
Funny statement, we are not in 2010, so you can claim that Nadal is more popular than Novak. Today, they enjoy literally equal popularity, it is so easily visible.
 
_phantom said:
I disagree. Djokovic, with Rafa's attitude and team around him, would not have any problem being equally popular.

It has nothing to do with being Eastern European. When you come from a relatively smaller community or country (in terms of power), your controversies are less tolerated, unfortunately. It's a hard fact. When England and Australia dominated cricket financially, players from those countries could get away with many controversies. Players from India or South Africa didn't have that luxury.

Women are out, Croats are out, Jokic is out. We only have Djokovic in the circle now, so maybe it's not a systematic bias. :)

It is the "national" team, so they can exhibit some nationalism. As long as they don't sing and dance for a greater Croat nation, it's acceptable I guess.
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it is bias directed from Western Europeans against males from most Eastern European countries. This comes historically from male immigration.

So yes jokic doesn’t fit the bill because as I said Americans don’t have a systematic bias. It’s from Western Europeans!

So yes women don’t fit the bill. Women didn’t come as immigrants to “steal the jobs” nor were they associated with crime and brutishness. No, Western European men were super happy to date and marry them.

And as I also said as Eastern European countries got richer, more politically integrated and as Western Europeans travelled to these countries, the bias disappeared over time. But it is still present though much less than in the past against Albanians, Serbs and Bosnians (plus maybe Macedonians) IMO (my prediction Give it another decade or so and it will have been completely disappeared)

So does it only leave Djokovic? No, I would say Ibrahimovic and shaqiri, too. I know not too many… but how many Serbian, Bosnian and Albanian male “stars” are there in Western Europe to begin with?

Not sure what you mean with for a greater nation… but You tell me what you think about the Croat song https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/f...en-filmed-singing-fascist-song-nightclub.html
 
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_phantom said:
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So I know of a survey, about xenophobia in Zurich, Switzerland, in 1994/1995. In that survey the strongest hostility was against “Yugoslavs” with 51.1%. In comparison the hostility against Spaniards was 1.9% (source: https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutsche_in_der_Schweiz).

I’m not gonna look up more statistics on this. But I assume the following (based on my personal experience):
1. Most people associate Serbs with Yugoslavs (and not Croats).
2. You also have such bad scores in other Western European countries
3. You also have bad scores in the 2000s. (But now the scores wouldn’t be that bad).

Now simple questions for you. Do you think this would hurt Novak’s popularity? are Western Europeans going to like Novak equally to a Western European player when Novak became big in 2007 - considering that in a survey a large percentage of them stated that they have hostility against Serbs?
 
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ActualTennisPlayer said:
So does it only leave Djokovic? No, I would say Ibrahimovic and shaqiri, too. I know not too many… but how many Serbian, Bosnian and Albanian male “stars” are there in Western Europe to begin with?
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Ibrahimovic is of Bosniak-Croat descent, born in Sweden, while Shaqiri is Kosovar-Albanian. Both of them were on the "right" side with the West during the conflicts of the 1990s. If your assumption that Western Europeans possess a solid grasp of history and geography is correct, then there shouldn't be grounds for disdain toward them based on their backgrounds. Shaqiri drew animosity from Serbians and ethnic Serbs, and mostly annoyance from others.

These two can be grouped together with Djokovic due to their tendency to get into various controversies. As I've mentioned before, controversies involving individuals from smaller/less powerful countries or communities tend to be less tolerated. I gave example of Indian, Sri Lankan, or South African cricketers compared to those from England and Australia a decade ago in my previous post. This dynamic isn't indicative of systematic bias against Serbians.
ActualTennisPlayer said:
Not sure what you mean with for a greater nation… but You tell me what you think about the Croat song
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Yes, it was really bad. And it seems they apologized.
ActualTennisPlayer said:
So I know of a survey, about xenophobia in Zurich, Switzerland, in 1994/1995. In that survey the strongest hostility was against “Yugoslavs” with 51.1%.
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ActualTennisPlayer said:
But it is still present though much less than in the past against Albanians, Serbs and Bosnians (plus maybe Macedonians) IMO (my prediction Give it another decade or so and it will have been completely disappeared)
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Quoting a survey that was conducted while the first conflict of the 90s was still raging on won't prove anything. People are ready to move on quite easily within 4-5 years. You're suggesting that in 10 years from now, it will disappear. I would argue that it has already disappeared.
 
_phantom said:
Ibrahimovic is of Bosniak-Croat descent, born in Sweden, while Shaqiri is Kosovar-Albanian. Both of them were on the "right" side with the West during the conflicts of the 1990s. If your assumption that Western Europeans possess a solid grasp of history and geography is correct, then there shouldn't be grounds for disdain toward them based on their backgrounds. Shaqiri drew animosity from Serbians and ethnic Serbs, and mostly annoyance from others.
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my argument is not that the main reason Serbians are not liked is because they were on the “wrong side of the war” (though it does contribute). My argument is that they are mainly not liked because Western Europe has received lots of immigrants, especially poorer ones, from Serbia. Again, think of Serbians (or Bosnians or Albanians) like Mexicans in the US or Italians/Irish in the past in the US. Nobody doubts that there is/was a bias against them. Why is it different for Serbians, albanians and Bosnians in Western Europe?

Also the survey asked about immigrants. Not about the politics. Swiss are very neutral when it comes to foreign wars - they weren’t fighting against Serbs. However, some did react negatively to the large Serbian, Bosnian and Albanian immigration. And here is a newer source from 2010 for Switzerland “On the unpopularity scale, the Germans rank fourth after migrants from the former Yugoslavia and Arab and Turkish immigrants - at least that's what your study shows”
(source: https://www.swissinfo.ch/ger/bundes...iebter-als-alle-anderen-westeuropaeer/8279826). Would you also doubt there is no bias against Arabs and Turks in Western Europe?
 
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ActualTennisPlayer said:
my argument is not that the main reason Serbians are not liked is because they were on the “wrong side of the war” (though it does contribute). My argument is that they are mainly not liked because Western Europe has received lots of immigrants, especially poorer ones, from Serbia. Again, think of Serbians (or Bosnians or Albanians) like Mexicans in the US or Italians/Irish in the past in the US. Nobody doubts that there is/was a bias against them. Why is it different for Serbians, albanians and Bosnians in Western Europe?

Also the survey asked about immigrants. Not about the politics. Swiss are very neutral when it comes to foreign wars - they weren’t fighting against Serbs. However, some did react negatively to the large Serbian, Bosnian and Albanian immigration. And here is a newer source from 2010 for Switzerland “On the unpopularity scale, the Germans rank fourth after migrants from the former Yugoslavia and Arab and Turkish immigrants - at least that's what your study shows”
(source: https://www.swissinfo.ch/ger/bundes...iebter-als-alle-anderen-westeuropaeer/8279826). Would you also doubt there is no bias against Arabs and Turks in Western Europe?
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A survey that depicts Germans almost as unwelcome as Arabs should not be taken seriously. Croatia was the country where the idea of a southern Slavic nation first originated almost 200 years ago, and it also happens to have more emigrants than immigrants. However, for your argument, you have completely disregarded Croats from Yugoslavs. One doesn't need to engage in so much mental gymnastics to demonstrate that being Serbian had a significant impact on Djokovic's popularity problem.

We may have to agree to disagree here. My point is that most people lack sufficient knowledge to differentiate between a Serbian, a Croat or a Slovak. If Djokovic had shown better behavior on and off the court, and tried to be more genuine and less sneaky, he would not have faced any popularity issues. On top of that I believe that Serbia is currently facing an image problem due to Djokovic and his zealous supporters.
 
Best bet for Sinner to be popular - repeatedly beat the unpopular players like Djokovic, Medvedev, Zverev, Rune on the way to tournament finals and then lose in the final to a popular player like Alcaraz. Lovable losers are very popular.
 
_phantom said:
A survey that depicts Germans almost as unwelcome as Arabs should not be taken seriously. Croatia was the country where the idea of a southern Slavic nation first originated almost 200 years ago, and it also happens to have more emigrants than immigrants. However, for your argument, you have completely disregarded Croats from Yugoslavs. One doesn't need to engage in so much mental gymnastics to demonstrate that being Serbian had a significant impact on Djokovic's popularity problem.

We may have to agree to disagree here. My point is that most people lack sufficient knowledge to differentiate between a Serbian, a Croat or a Slovak. If Djokovic had shown better behavior on and off the court, and tried to be more genuine and less sneaky, he would not have faced any popularity issues. On top of that I believe that Serbia is currently facing an image problem due to Djokovic and his zealous supporters.
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the quote I send you just said that Germans are the fourth least popular group. It didn’t say anything how unpopular they are compared to Arabs.

But look - you are clearly clueless about western Europe. Germans are extremely disliked in Switzerland. (Because there was a lot of German immigration). Just ask any German speaking swiss. Or just google it and read some articles - for example: https://suissebook.ch/de/arrogant-u...hen-bei-den-schweizern-so-unbeliebt-2/887312/
www.20min.ch

«Ich habe die Schnauze voll von der Schweiz»

Fast 310’000 Deutsche lebten letztes Jahr in der Schweiz. Viele sind nach einigen Jahren aber enttäuscht über die Schweizer Gesellschaft. Sechs Deutsche erzählen, wieso sie die Schweiz wieder verlassen wollen.
www.20min.ch www.20min.ch

Look it’s fine to have no clue about western Europe. I also don’t have a clue about New Zealand or India for example. I’m not going to debate an Indian about India though. So I don’t get why you debate me about Western Europe. I know about these countries, you don’t.

Edit: Croatia is a super popular tourist destination. Of course people know Croatia and Croatians. And yes they are seen as different to other balkan people. I mean they already look very different. Croatians have mostly light hair and look like Western Europeans, Serbs have more dark hair and dark eyes, like people from the south. Again a western european would know this. But someone who just wants to be against Djokovic like you, won’t.

Edit: you wanted to say Slovenian right and not Slovak? Slovenia part of Yugoslavia, Slovakia not. (Lots of non European confuse them)
 
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socallefty said:
Best bet for Sinner to be popular - repeatedly beat the unpopular players like Djokovic, Medvedev, Zverev, Rune on the way to tournament finals and then lose in the final to a popular player like Alcaraz. Lovable losers are very popular.
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Was the optician closed today since you grouped Rune into this gang of skinny baseline bangers?
 
Impetus said:
Was the optician closed today since you grouped Rune into this gang of skinny baseline bangers?
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Don’t wear your Danish blinders. I’ve been in the stadium a couple of times when he got a lot of boos from not trying hard at times plus behaving bad at other times. The reason that the guys I mentioned are unpopular has to do more with their behavior and not due to any baseline style - pretty much everyone is a power baseliner these days and they hit winners at the first short ball they get.
 
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socallefty said:
Don’t wear your Danish blinders. I’ve been in the stadium a couple of times when he got a lot of boos from not trying hard at times plus behaving bad. The reason that the guys I mentioned are unpopular has to do more with their behavior and not due to any baseline style - pretty much everyone is a power baseliner these days and hit winners at the first short ball they get.
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I'm convinced the boos were utterly deserved. He does misbehave a lot. I hate his fake MTO's and how he sometimes stops playing when things don't go his way. I even saw him spit on an indoor court. I consider myself very liberal but that kid pushes my bottons at times.

At the end of the day I don't think it will matter the most. The game style is way more important and the personality only has a smaller influence. Mostly It's about entertainment and preferably we want great tennis and people with personality performing.

I certainty don't agree with you that all modern tennis players are boring baseline bangers. Rune comes to the net a lot more often than anyone in #10 and he has personality.

90% of the spectators cheered for Dimitrov in Miami and I don't see any hype on Sinner except in Italy.

Sinner has a boring game and a bland personality. It's really the worst cocktail for entertainment.
 
Impetus said:
I'm convinced the boos were utterly deserved. He does misbehave a lot. I hate his fake MTO's and how he sometimes stops playing when things don't go his way. I even saw him spit on an indoor court. I consider myself very liberal but that kid pushes my bottons at times.

At the end of the day I don't think it will matter the most. The game style is way more important and the personality only has a smaller influence. Mostly It's about entertainment and preferably we want great tennis and people with personality performing.

I certainty don't agree with you that all modern tennis players are boring baseline bangers. Rune comes to the net a lot more often than anyone in #10 and he has personality.

90% of the spectators cheered for Dimitrov in Miami and I don't see any hype on Sinner except in Italy.

He has boring game and a bland personality. It's really the worst cocktail for entertainment.
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I don’t find any of the baseline guys or all court players boring. ATP tennis is supremely entertaining to me because of the high quality of play either at the Challenger level or at the Slam level. I don’t need someone to come to the net for tennis to be entertaining, although it is nice to see some points finished that way when the opportunity is there. The player who is playing better tennis is usually more entertaining for me whether it is Djokovic playing Federer or Sinner playing Alcaraz - they don’t win points just by accident, but by carefully constructing patterns. Federer and Alcaraz are more fun to watch when they are coming out on top, but I‘ve watched them being beat in some matches by opponents playing better and running them around when the opponent was more entertaining.

If you can’t appreciate the higher pace/spin and higher speed movement of today’s tennis played by top class athletes, then I don’t see the point in debating the beauty of tennis with you.
 
socallefty said:
I don’t find any of the baseline guys or all court players boring. ATP tennis is supremely entertaining to me because of the high quality of play either at the Challenger level or at the Slam level. I don’t need someone to come to the net for tennis to be entertaining, although it is nice to see some points finished that way when the opportunity is there. The player who is playing better tennis is usually more entertaining for me whether it is Djokovic playing Federer or Sinner playing Alcaraz - they don’t win points just by accident, but by carefully constructing patterns. Federer and Alcaraz are more fun to watch when they are coming out on top, but I‘ve watched them being beat in some matches by opponents playing better and running them around when the opponent was more entertaining.

If you can’t appreciate the higher pace/spin and higher speed movement of today’s tennis played by top class athletes, then I don’t see the point in debating the beauty of tennis with you.
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You're right. It doesn't sound like we appreciate the same things in tennis.

Let's see if Sinner becomes popular. I doubt it.
 
ActualTennisPlayer said:
the quote I send you just said that Germans are the fourth least popular group. It didn’t say anything how unpopular they are compared to Arabs.

But look - you are clearly clueless about western Europe. Germans are extremely disliked in Switzerland. (Because there was a lot of German immigration). Just ask any German speaking swiss. Or just google it and read some articles - for example: https://suissebook.ch/de/arrogant-u...hen-bei-den-schweizern-so-unbeliebt-2/887312/
www.20min.ch

«Ich habe die Schnauze voll von der Schweiz»

Fast 310’000 Deutsche lebten letztes Jahr in der Schweiz. Viele sind nach einigen Jahren aber enttäuscht über die Schweizer Gesellschaft. Sechs Deutsche erzählen, wieso sie die Schweiz wieder verlassen wollen.
www.20min.ch www.20min.ch

Look it’s fine to have no clue about western Europe. I also don’t have a clue about New Zealand or India for example. I’m not going to debate an Indian about India though. So I don’t get why you debate me about Western Europe. I know about these countries, you don’t.

Edit: Croatia is a super popular tourist destination. Of course people know Croatia and Croatians. And yes they are seen as different to other balkan people. I mean they already look very different. Croatians have mostly light hair and look like Western Europeans, Serbs have more dark hair and dark eyes, like people from the south. Again a western european would know this. But someone who just wants to be against Djokovic like you, won’t.

Edit: you wanted to say Slovenian right and not Slovak? Slovenia part of Yugoslavia, Slovakia not. (Lots of non European confuse them)
Click to expand...
A few things.

I intentionally mentioned Slovak to emphasize how little some people know about geography, especially those outside of Europe. They might not even know enough to dislike a player just because of his nationality. And remember when I asked if you could tell the difference between BiH and FBiH? That was a little hint that I've got at least some grasp of the Balkans. This stuff is basic af anyway so I am not asking for a pat on the back.

Being genuinely curious without any hubris or prejudice is a good thing. I'm not from New Zealand, India, or have any connection to the Balkans, but I happed to know about the Illyrian movement, the first South Slav or Yugoslav moments in history. No one was paying me to do that, just piqued my interest. If you had pointed out that Croats might be more accepted because they're mainly Catholic, unlike Serbs who are more Orthodox, that would've made more sense than just talking about skin or eye color.

When Djokovic and his team kept playing the "he's from Serbia" card over the past decade and a half, they tried to evoke memories of the 90s conflicts. Western European dislike towards immigrants of various ethnicities (which you selectively add and remove to make a point) should not have been brought into this discussion.
 
_phantom said:
A few things.

I intentionally mentioned Slovak to emphasize how little some people know about geography, especially those outside of Europe. They might not even know enough to dislike a player just because of his nationality. And remember when I asked if you could tell the difference between BiH and FBiH? That was a little hint that I've got at least some grasp of the Balkans. This stuff is basic af anyway so I am not asking for a pat on the back.

Being genuinely curious without any hubris or prejudice is a good thing. I'm not from New Zealand, India, or have any connection to the Balkans, but I happed to know about the Illyrian movement, the first South Slav or Yugoslav moments in history. No one was paying me to do that, just piqued my interest. If you had pointed out that Croats might be more accepted because they're mainly Catholic, unlike Serbs who are more Orthodox, that would've made more sense than just talking about skin or eye color.

When Djokovic and his team kept playing the "he's from Serbia" card over the past decade and a half, they tried to evoke memories of the 90s conflicts. Western European dislike towards immigrants of various ethnicities (which you selectively add and remove to make a point) should not have been brought into this discussion.
Click to expand...

You might know a lot about history and politics from Europe by reading books. But I am talking about cultural knowledge, which you don’t pick up from books.

I feel like you are trying to debate someone else. I don’t care what Novak’s team or his fans or Serbs say.

But I can tell you that as a Western European growing up in Western Europe that *we* have biases against Eastern Europeans in general and Serbs in particular. And yes we can differentiate between countries and people (though that also depends a bit on the Western European country you are from). Some countries and people we rate more highly than others. And our biases change over time.

So basically this debate is akin to me, a European, saying to you, presumably American, “in the US you don’t have biases against latinos” (while you are saying “we US Americans do have biases against Latinos”). A bit weird isn’t it ?

Edit: I also noticed the following. Eastern European immigration mostly started in the 90s. So talking about whether players were disliked in the 80s or beginning of the 90s is probably irrelevant to the debate.
 
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