How come Federer was a better returner against big servers compared to Djokovic?

Novak is a better overall returner than Rafa, Roger or Andy .Murray none of whom were slouches in that department.

Novak"s returning of most players serves were absolutely outrageous at his peak and time and time again he would return good serves to within a foot of baseline putting server immediately on backfoot.

However, I do think that when it comes to the really huge servers who just serve with pure blunt force both Andy and Roger where better at just chipping or blocking the return back and getting rally going.

Novak returns are much more aggressive and is so effective against 90% of the tour but maybe he should take tip from Andy and just try and block return back when facing huge servers
 
Nole lost some matches at insignificant tournaments to those players but always routined them at big ones. Guess Federer is a superior MM ltournament level player, congrats.
 
Federer had a better defensive/reactive return which helped him against the big servers. Djokovic is clearly better at punishing medium to good serves, or second serves e.g. the offensive return. I do think Fed's first serve return at his peak is very good and getting underrated by some here.
 
The block-slice BH return was the key shot that reset the point and kept the ball low, making life difficult for bots to generate any kind of pressure, let alone a winner off serve+1.

socallefty said:
Was he though? I seem to remember Wimbledon losses by Federer to Raonic, Andersen and Hurkacz and offhand, I can’t recall any Slam losses by Djokovic to bots if you don’t consider Quarrey as one. Are there some stats to show this as my memory seems to indicate both of them winning against servebots at their normal 80-85% career winning rate with the odd losses here and there.
Click to expand...

Fed's Ls mentioned there at age 37+? Dude handled bots with eeeeease when he could move.
 
mental midget said:
The eye test checks out on the premise of this thread...would be interesting to see if the statistics do too. But anyway like I said, if it's true it comes down to fed's combination of incredible hands, reflexes and racket control/awareness in particular. Along with mac (and rios), he's one of those players that just has an innate feel for where the racket face is...where a lot of players' 'stick save' returns would fly long or dump into the net, he just had an uncanny ability to catch it just right and keep it in play.

Isner talked about that in one of their matches in Miami afterwards, i remember in his interview he was like 'you guys don't get it,' was just like...flummoxed by fed's ability to control the ball on big bombs.

overall novak is clearly the better returner, but fed definitely had that unique ability to fight off the heat.
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Yeah I remember Kyrgios just laughing about it too. He tried to explain it during some AO commentary on a Fed match and then just laughed at the idiot he was co-commentating with. He ended up saying it's hard to explain just how good that (the block slice return) is.

I remember some non-moron commentator, maybe Cahill, talking about the heavy racquet Fed used as a factor in helping absorb the pace. But that was lonnnng ago.
 
NatF said:
Federer had a better defensive/reactive return which helped him against the big servers. Djokovic is clearly better at punishing medium to good serves, or second serves e.g. the offensive return. I do think Fed's first serve return at his peak is very good and getting underrated by some here.
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I mean there’s a reason he was putting up better return stats than even Djokovic at Wimbledon in the 2003-2006 period when a good chunk of his competition was big servers. Did such a good job returning the first serves of Roddick, Philippoussis, and others.
 
Third Serve said:
I mean there’s a reason he was putting up better return stats than even Djokovic at Wimbledon in the 2003-2006 period when a good chunk of his competition was big servers. Did such a good job returning the first serves of Roddick, Philippoussis, and others.
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Federer became complacent and more of a coaster as he got older. His return stats in 2004 in particular (on grass) were pretty nuts.
 
yokied said:
Yeah I remember Kyrgios just laughing about it too. He tried to explain it during some AO commentary on a Fed match and then just laughed at the idiot he was co-commentating with. He ended up saying it's hard to explain just how good that (the block slice return) is.

I remember some non-moron commentator, maybe Cahill, talking about the heavy racquet Fed used as a factor in helping absorb the pace. But that was lonnnng ago.
Click to expand...
for sure, i can say from my own experience that a heavier racket does wonders for blocking back big serves. murray and novak both use pretty heavy sticks as well.
 
JoJoHackshow said:
Don't get me wrong, Djokovic is the better returner overall, but Federer handled big servers with ease. In fact, I know he wouldn't have struggled nearly as bad as Nole did today against Opelka.

Fed often humiliated big servers such as Roddick, Karlovic, Isner, etc... why was Fed so much better at returning against big servers compared to Nole?
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Better hands. Quick, reaction-type shots. Ability to take pace off the rise. Lot of people think Fed's best shots were his forehand or even his slice backhand, but I always thought his ability to half-volley was nearly untouchable. Not that different from returning serve bots.
 
Here's what's weird, folks. Djoker's return of serve on grass improved markedly in his 30s.

Let's look at their return stats on grass(Djoker 2014-15 vs Djoker 2018-22 vs Federer 2003-06)

Djoker 2014-15, 23.7% break% and a 38.1% RPW%
Federer 2003-06, 30.4% break% and a 41.2% RPW%
Djoker 2018-22, 29.8% break% and a 41.6% RPW%

If we only include Wimbledon, then
Djoker 2018-22, 30.2% break% and 41.8% RPW%
Federer 2003-06, 31.7% break% and 41.6% RPW%
Djoker 2014-15, 23.7% break% and 38.1% RPW%

Ok. I kind of get where the OP is coming from; sort of. For a short peak, Fed is right there on grass with Djoker; perhaps has a slight edge if we look at bomb-servers. The shocker is that Djoker was at his best on grass as an old man as a returner. That part shocked me, since that never happens. But when watching his matches, he tends to read the server better than ever before. So often, you see him guessing right to be there to crush the return. I've also seen him be on the opposite side of the serve too. But his reading has been very effective.

Side note: Djoker's hold% from 2018-22 was a staggering 91.1% at Wimbledon. That's getting broken only once every 11.24 games. However, Fed's hold% from 2003-06 at Wimbledon was a whopping 94.1%, which means he was broken once every 16.95 games. That competes with Karlovic's best seasons.

Either way, the OP actually elicited a good conversation here. It's thought-provoking(perhaps not intentionally). And honestly, I don't care who's better in this metric. I was just searching for an answer either way. On grass courts against bomb servers, the OP might be right.
 
SonnyT said:
How dumb! Fed was NEVER in the league of Djokovic, Nadal or Murray, for that matter, in terms of returning serves!

Show me an analysis where Federer ranked alongside Djokovic and Nadal! Words are cheap, analysis is much more fact-based!
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Thats surface based.

On grass Fed is second only to Murray and Nole is right behind them if I am right. Nadal is far behind all.
On hard Fed is behind all.
 
Pheasant said:
Here's what's weird, folks. Djoker's return of serve on grass improved markedly in his 30s.

Let's look at their return stats on grass(Djoker 2014-15 vs Djoker 2018-22 vs Federer 2003-06)

Djoker 2014-15, 23.7% break% and a 38.1% RPW%
Federer 2003-06, 30.4% break% and a 41.2% RPW%
Djoker 2018-22, 29.8% break% and a 41.6% RPW%

If we only include Wimbledon, then
Djoker 2018-22, 30.2% break% and 41.8% RPW%
Federer 2003-06, 31.7% break% and 41.6% RPW%
Djoker 2014-15, 23.7% break% and 38.1% RPW%

Ok. I kind of get where the OP is coming from; sort of. For a short peak, Fed is right there on grass with Djoker; perhaps has a slight edge if we look at bomb-servers. The shocker is that Djoker was at his best on grass as an old man as a returner. That part shocked me, since that never happens. But when watching his matches, he tends to read the server better than ever before. So often, you see him guessing right to be there to crush the return. I've also seen him be on the opposite side of the serve too. But his reading has been very effective.

Side note: Djoker's hold% from 2018-22 was a staggering 91.1% at Wimbledon. That's getting broken only once every 11.24 games. However, Fed's hold% from 2003-06 at Wimbledon was a whopping 94.1%, which means he was broken once every 16.95 games. That competes with Karlovic's best seasons.

Either way, the OP actually elicited a good conversation here. It's thought-provoking(perhaps not intentionally). And honestly, I don't care who's better in this metric. I was just searching for an answer either way. On grass courts against bomb servers, the OP might be right.
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They are almost equal


Djokovic is slightly ahead. You are looking only for grass then Fed is ahead but on fast courts including Hard, Djokovic is ahead.
 
SonnyT said:
How dumb! Fed was NEVER in the league of Djokovic, Nadal or Murray, for that matter, in terms of returning serves!

Show me an analysis where Federer ranked alongside Djokovic and Nadal! Words are cheap, analysis is much more fact-based!
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Tennis TV says Djokovic is the best returner ever followed by Andre and Andy Murray finishing the top 3.

Fed is right behind them and Nadal is 2 spots behind at number 6.


This is spot on.
 
nolefam_2024 said:
Tennis TV says Djokovic is the best returner ever followed by Andre and Andy Murray finishing the top 3.

Fed is right behind them and Nadal is 2 spots behind at number 6.

This is spot on.
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Fantastic.

mtommer says Federer is the best fast serve returner ever. Nailed it dead center bullseye.
 
Pheasant said:
Here's what's weird, folks. Djoker's return of serve on grass improved markedly in his 30s.

Let's look at their return stats on grass(Djoker 2014-15 vs Djoker 2018-22 vs Federer 2003-06)

Djoker 2014-15, 23.7% break% and a 38.1% RPW%
Federer 2003-06, 30.4% break% and a 41.2% RPW%
Djoker 2018-22, 29.8% break% and a 41.6% RPW%

If we only include Wimbledon, then
Djoker 2018-22, 30.2% break% and 41.8% RPW%
Federer 2003-06, 31.7% break% and 41.6% RPW%
Djoker 2014-15, 23.7% break% and 38.1% RPW%

Ok. I kind of get where the OP is coming from; sort of. For a short peak, Fed is right there on grass with Djoker; perhaps has a slight edge if we look at bomb-servers. The shocker is that Djoker was at his best on grass as an old man as a returner. That part shocked me, since that never happens. But when watching his matches, he tends to read the server better than ever before. So often, you see him guessing right to be there to crush the return. I've also seen him be on the opposite side of the serve too. But his reading has been very effective.

Side note: Djoker's hold% from 2018-22 was a staggering 91.1% at Wimbledon. That's getting broken only once every 11.24 games. However, Fed's hold% from 2003-06 at Wimbledon was a whopping 94.1%, which means he was broken once every 16.95 games. That competes with Karlovic's best seasons.

Either way, the OP actually elicited a good conversation here. It's thought-provoking(perhaps not intentionally). And honestly, I don't care who's better in this metric. I was just searching for an answer either way. On grass courts against bomb servers, the OP might be right.
Click to expand...
Djokovic's competition at Wimbledon in his latter career has been an absolute joke for the most part, his draw in 2014 was a minefield with lots of good players and in 2015 he had Anderson and Federer. Considering it's a small two year sample that really matters compared to 2018-2022 which is a much large rperiod with as a I said garbage competition. So no Djokovic was not returning better in 18-22 lol.
 
NatF said:
Djokovic's competition at Wimbledon in his latter career has been an absolute joke for the most part, his draw in 2014 was a minefield with lots of good players and in 2015 he had Anderson and Federer. Considering it's a small two year sample that really matters compared to 2018-2022 which is a much large rperiod with as a I said garbage competition. So no Djokovic was not returning better in 18-22 lol.
Click to expand...
I’ll add a caveat that I was very impressed by his returning against Kyrgios in 2022.
 
Pheasant said:
The shocker is that Djoker was at his best on grass as an old man as a returner. That part shocked me, since that never happens. But when watching his matches, he tends to read the server better than ever before. So often, you see him guessing right to be there to crush the return. I've also seen him be on the opposite side of the serve too. But his reading has been very effective.
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Novak's become more interested in analytics as his career has gone on. I wonder if that's playing a part in the increase. He could be leaning more on guessing than reading now, which will pay off more than not, but also explains him looking completely fooled when getting it wrong.

Tennis is by all measures a very simple game, but if there's one area where math could possibly help, it's serve predictability.
 
MeatTornado said:
Novak's become more interested in analytics as his career has gone on. I wonder if that's playing a part in the increase. He could be leaning more on guessing than reading now, which will pay off more than not, but also explains him looking completely fooled when getting it wrong.

Tennis is by all measures a very simple game, but if there's one area where math could possibly help, it's serve predictability.
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I think this has a lot to do with it. The top players invest in guys providing analytics to them for each match and developing game plans accordingly.
 
RS said:
I never saw Djokovic his BH as good as Federer did in USO 06 or AO 17.
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Novak AO 2008 and 2019 backhands were pretty good imo. It was pretty absurd what he was able to do off the back foot in 2019 AO.

Not as good as the Fedr binaries you mentioned but its a closely run thing.
 
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Pheasant said:
Here's what's weird, folks. Djoker's return of serve on grass improved markedly in his 30s.

Let's look at their return stats on grass(Djoker 2014-15 vs Djoker 2018-22 vs Federer 2003-06)

Djoker 2014-15, 23.7% break% and a 38.1% RPW%
Federer 2003-06, 30.4% break% and a 41.2% RPW%
Djoker 2018-22, 29.8% break% and a 41.6% RPW%

If we only include Wimbledon, then
Djoker 2018-22, 30.2% break% and 41.8% RPW%
Federer 2003-06, 31.7% break% and 41.6% RPW%
Djoker 2014-15, 23.7% break% and 38.1% RPW%

Ok. I kind of get where the OP is coming from; sort of. For a short peak, Fed is right there on grass with Djoker; perhaps has a slight edge if we look at bomb-servers. The shocker is that Djoker was at his best on grass as an old man as a returner. That part shocked me, since that never happens. But when watching his matches, he tends to read the server better than ever before. So often, you see him guessing right to be there to crush the return. I've also seen him be on the opposite side of the serve too. But his reading has been very effective.

Side note: Djoker's hold% from 2018-22 was a staggering 91.1% at Wimbledon. That's getting broken only once every 11.24 games. However, Fed's hold% from 2003-06 at Wimbledon was a whopping 94.1%, which means he was broken once every 16.95 games. That competes with Karlovic's best seasons.

Either way, the OP actually elicited a good conversation here. It's thought-provoking(perhaps not intentionally). And honestly, I don't care who's better in this metric. I was just searching for an answer either way. On grass courts against bomb servers, the OP might be right.
Click to expand...
peak Fed would be putting up 08 RG Nadal numbers on grass against the 18-22 field if he wanted to. That's the real answer.
 
Federer RPW on HC all matches

RPW2.png






Vs Djokovic RPW all matches on HC


RPW.png
 
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There is not much evidence that even Fed return went bad after 2003-06.

What shows on contrary that on HC his return points won has increased in 2010s than 2000s. His lower break chances and RPW may be due to skipping clay majorly in 2010s, especially post 2012. But on HC, Fed return was always very good.
 
Fed's uncanny ability to neutralize huge first serves he had no business neutralizing was ludicrous - he did it to a laundry list of massive servers over the course of his career (Roddick, Ivanisevic, Philippousis, Raonic, Mirnyi, Arthurs, Isner, Karlovic, Kyrgios etc) and it never got old to watch.
 
nolefam_2024 said:
There is not much evidence that even Fed return went bad after 2003-06.

What shows on contrary that on HC his return points won has increased in 2010s than 2000s. His lower break chances and RPW may be due to skipping clay majorly in 2010s, especially post 2012. But on HC, Fed return was always very good.
Click to expand...
Federer:

'05-'06: 41.8-42.2% RPW on hard
'04, '11, '15: 41.1-41.2% RPW on hard
'07, '10, '14: 40.6-40.7% RPW on hard
'17, '19: 39.5-6% RPW on hard
'08-'09, '12, '18: 38.6-38.8% RPW on hard

Djokovic:

'11: 45.5% RPW on hard
'12, '15-'16: 44.0-44.4% RPW on hard
'13-'14: 43.5% RPW on hard
'18-'20: 41.4-42.3% RPW on hard
'21-'23: 39.8-40.9% RPW on hard

i'd say Federer's returning pretty clearly dropped off after '04-'06 and he recovered it to some extent in later prime/primeish years. honestly kinda funny that Djokovic's RPW stats fit the age-related decline narrative a lot more cleanly (iirc his 1st return even more so than Federer's 1st or 2nd return)
 
Angrybirdstar said:
Federer:

'05-'06: 41.8-42.2% RPW on hard
'04, '11, '15: 41.1-41.2% RPW on hard
'07, '10, '14: 40.6-40.7% RPW on hard
'17, '19: 39.5-6% RPW on hard
'08-'09, '12, '18: 38.6-38.8% RPW on hard

Djokovic:

'11: 45.5% RPW on hard
'12, '15-'16: 44.0-44.4% RPW on hard
'13-'14: 43.5% RPW on hard
'18-'20: 41.4-42.3% RPW on hard
'21-'23: 39.8-40.9% RPW on hard

honestly kinda funny that Djokovic's RPW stats fit the age-related decline narrative a lot more cleanly (iirc his 1st return even more so than Federer's 1st or 2nd return)
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@Pheasant

See the last paragraph.
 
Um, how about  no.

NoleFam said:
It depends on who the server is. I did a return stats composition a few months ago on Isner, Raonic, Karlovic and Roddick (they have the 4 greatest serving stats according to ATP) on faster surfaces for Murray, Federer and Djokovic. Overall, Djokovic came out on top but Federer had better return stats against Roddick and slightly better against Karlovic.

Djokovic return points won versus Isner -- 163/424 -- 38.4%
Federer " " " versus Isner -- 160/478 -- 33.5%
Murray " " versus Isner -- 163/492 -- 33.1%

Murray return points won versus Karlovic -- 178/533 -- 33.4%
Federer " " " versus Karlovic -- 185/693 -- 26.7%
Djokovic " " " versus Karlovic -- 45/182 -- 24.7%

Djokovic return points won versus Raonic -- 53/134 -- 39.6%
Murray " " " " versus Raonic -- 226/649 -- 34.8%
Federer " " " " versus Raonic -- 268/862 -- 31.1%

Federer return points won versus Roddick -- 482/1320 -- 36.5%
Murray " " " " versus Roddick -- 242/665 -- 36.4%
Djokovic " " " " versus Roddick -- 158/467 -- 33.8%

Overall
1. Djokovic 419/1207 -- 34.7%
2. Murray 809/2339 -- 34.5%
3. Federer 1095/3353 -- 32.6%
Click to expand...
 
Angrybirdstar said:
Federer:

'05-'06: 41.8-42.2% RPW on hard
'04, '11, '15: 41.1-41.2% RPW on hard
'07, '10, '14: 40.6-40.7% RPW on hard
'17, '19: 39.5-6% RPW on hard
'08-'09, '12, '18: 38.6-38.8% RPW on hard

Djokovic:

'11: 45.5% RPW on hard
'12, '15-'16: 44.0-44.4% RPW on hard
'13-'14: 43.5% RPW on hard
'18-'20: 41.4-42.3% RPW on hard
'21-'23: 39.8-40.9% RPW on hard

i'd say Federer's returning pretty clearly dropped off after '04-'06 and he recovered it to some extent in later prime/primeish years. honestly kinda funny that Djokovic's RPW stats fit the age-related decline narrative a lot more cleanly (iirc his 1st return even more so than Federer's 1st or 2nd return)
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I think there are two reasons for this.

1. The hard courts started slowing down as Fed entered his late-20s
2. Fed switched to a much bigger racket, which revived his game.

By the time Djoker hit his prime, the courts were at their slowest. By the time he was older, some of the courts were sped up(AO 2017 and USO; for example, also Miami).

However, I posted some return stats on grass courts for Djoker. And they don't change much from 2011-2015 on grass when compared to 2014-2015. So this isn't a sample size issue. i thinks that Djoker's game mechanically improved a lot, which offset a large chunk of his loss in footspeed; especially on grass courts.

Anyway, thanks for posting this. This is a good conversation. And I'm open to more theories.
 
SonnyT said:
HAHAHA! What can I say!

Pardon me, didn't Nadal take advantage of Federer's BH to dominate him the first 2/3 of Federer's career to the tune of 23-10, advantage Nadal? And their rivalry started in '05!
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Nadal vs. Federer had their first match in 2004, in Key Biscayne.

Nadal's style was unique to exploit a tiny weakness in the Federer backhand, because of a combination of Nadal's left-handedness, high topspin, high intensity approach. Against other players, Federer would neutralize his opponent's attempts at targeting his backhand, usually by using slice.
 
Angrybirdstar said:
Federer:

'05-'06: 41.8-42.2% RPW on hard
'04, '11, '15: 41.1-41.2% RPW on hard
'07, '10, '14: 40.6-40.7% RPW on hard
'17, '19: 39.5-6% RPW on hard
'08-'09, '12, '18: 38.6-38.8% RPW on hard
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The 2015 numbers are really surprising to me. I wasn’t that impressed by his returning that year and generally thought it was one of the glaring weaknesses of the Fedberg years.
 
NatF said:
Djokovic's competition at Wimbledon in his latter career has been an absolute joke for the most part, his draw in 2014 was a minefield with lots of good players and in 2015 he had Anderson and Federer. Considering it's a small two year sample that really matters compared to 2018-2022 which is a much large rperiod with as a I said garbage competition. So no Djokovic was not returning better in 18-22 lol.
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notable serving competition in rough tiers:

'03-'06:

S: Karlovic, Roddick x3, Philippoussis
A: Lopez, Ancic, Fish, Mahut, Johansson
B: Berdych, Gonzalez, Kiefer

'14-'15:

S: Anderson, Federer x2
A: Tsonga, Cilic x2, Dimitrov, Tomic
B: Stepanek?

'18-22:

S: Kyrgios, Anderson, Federer
A: van Rijthoven, Berrettini, Kokkinakis, Khachanov, Sandgren, Shapovalov
B: Edmund, Humbert, young Hurkacz, young Draper

Pheasant said:
i thinks that Djoker's game mechanically improved a lot, which offset a large chunk of his loss in footspeed; especially on grass courts.
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so considering the competition gap, i don't buy this take at all, especially when we look at the trend of Djokovic's return stats on hard courts
Pheasant said:
1. The hard courts started slowing down as Fed entered his late-20s
2. Fed switched to a much bigger racket, which revived his game.
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this doesn't explain Federer's '10 and '11 primeish seasons, with his smaller racket, being on par with his clearly prime seasons of '07 and '04 respectively. also, which hard courts slowed down when? i've got this data from the UTS stats timeline for hard court matches on tour, for example:

04-0708-1314-1617-2021-23
Ace %
8.20%​
8.30%​
8.80%​
8.90%​
8.50%​
Double Fault %
3.90%​
3.70%​
4.00%​
3.90%​
3.60%​
1st Serve %
59.70%​
60.20%​
59.80%​
61.10%​
62.30%​
1st Serve Won %
71.80%​
71.90%​
72.70%​
72.60%​
72.30%​
2nd Serve Won %
50.80%​
50.80%​
50.90%​
50.60%​
50.70%​
Break Points Saved %
60.20%​
60.60%​
60.90%​
61.20%​
61.10%​
Service Points Won %
63.30%​
63.50%​
64.00%​
64.10%​
64.10%​
Service Games Won %
78.70%​
78.90%​
79.70%​
79.90%​
80.00%​
Click to expand...
 
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Mustard said:
Nadal vs. Federer had their first match in 2004, in Key Biscayne.

Nadal's style was unique to exploit a tiny weakness in the Federer backhand, because of a combination of Nadal's left-handedness, high topspin, high intensity approach. Against other players, Federer would neutralize his opponent's attempts at targeting his backhand, usually by using slice.
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Djokovic didn't have to go to BH to dominate Federer, Nadal had to!
 
SonnyT said:
Djokovic didn't have to go to BH to dominate Federer, Nadal had to!
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Federer had a lot more mobility in the noughties than in the tens.

What was the main key to Djokovic winning most matches against Federer in the 2010s? Mostly that he could move better than Federer, and be more consistent in terms of outlasting Federer. It wouldn't happen in the noughties.
 
NatF said:
Federer had a better defensive/reactive return which helped him against the big servers. Djokovic is clearly better at punishing medium to good serves, or second serves e.g. the offensive return. I do think Fed's first serve return at his peak is very good and getting underrated by some here.
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Yeah, would agree with this.

NatF said:
Federer became complacent and more of a coaster as he got older. His return stats in 2004 in particular (on grass) were pretty nuts.
Click to expand...

However, this I'm not really buying. Being more content to coast plays a part (especially as in some ways Fed's serve game became more consistent as he got older) but overall I think his ROS as a shot just flat out declined after his magic period of 2004-2006, especially on grass.

Matches that stand out to me in this regard are 2007 and 2009 Wimbledon finals, those are matches Fed won and was otherwise in excellent form throughout the tourney but struggled more than 2003-2006 Fed would have IMO because ROS wasn't the shot it once was.
 
jl809 said:
True, but he could have driven the return more. Proved he more than had the skill to do it in later years
Click to expand...

That's when he switched to a 97-inch racquet.

People talk about Fed's neo BH winners and whatever but IMO it's the ROS that made the biggest different in the match-up, in 2017 when Fed had time to actually adjust to the new stick because he took off time in 2016. He was finally coming over the BH return against Nadal's serve regularly.

Really, you could argue that in some ways Fed was unlucky to fall in-between two eras so to speak. Game and conditions where quite different when he was growing up compared to what came later, especially with all the massive slowdown of the surfaces.
 
Glad the Fedals, now that the goat race is finally over, are on a 'tennis fans searching for meaning' in all kinds of stats everywhere , leaving no stone unturned to keep going post-goat race.

But respect to them for doing this, and more so measuring every possible tennis stat to the bar that has been set, the Novak Djokovic Goat standard, as it should be. (y)

We will get more and more in the years to come, cannot wait, which is a good thing now that we cannot only keep talking about the epic Goat race that is over. :censored::)
 
zagor said:
Yeah, would agree with this.



However, this I'm not really buying. Being more content to coast plays a part (especially as in some ways Fed's serve game became more consistent as he got older) but overall I think his ROS as a shot just flat out declined after his magic period of 2004-2006, especially on grass.

Matches that stand out to me in this regard are 2007 and 2009 Wimbledon finals, those are matches Fed won and was otherwise in excellent form throughout the tourney but struggled more than 2003-2006 Fed would have IMO because ROS wasn't the shot it once was.
Click to expand...
Both can be true no?
 
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