How come Federer was a better returner against big servers compared to Djokovic?

zagor said:
Sure but a bigger factor is IMO the sharp decline of Fed's ROS, than him coasting after getting that one break.
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Sure, but I think his mindset hurt him a fair bit. The chip and put the ball in play worked fine when he had his peak athleticism and groundgame but it worked less well once all aspects of his game declined.
 
kinda funny no one brought it up but notable that Federer (and Murray) were generally much harder to ace than Djokovic, so that says something about how they do against big servers
 
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In Federer's peak years 2004-2006 when he was at the very height of his powers he had a better return than Djokovic. His FH return was noticeably better and on his BH he had the ability to chip the return as well as drive it, but as he got older he lost that ability to drive the return on BH and his reflexes were a bit slower to his FH side as well. Djokovic was a more consistent returner in that he doesnt try to do much with the return other than make sure he gets it back in play which as the game became more baseline based with less net rushers was a good tactic. When Djokovic gets his racket on a return it goes in and nobody has been as consistent in that regard as Nole.
 
socallefty said:
Was he though? I seem to remember Wimbledon losses by Federer to Raonic, Andersen and Hurkacz and offhand, I can’t recall any Slam losses by Djokovic to bots if you don’t consider Quarrey as one. Are there some stats to show this as my memory seems to indicate both of them winning against servebots at their normal 80-85% career winning rate with the odd losses here and there.
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Respectfully - lol.

Raonic - backerer. Thrashed him in 3 the next year on way to championship.

Anderson - handerer. Destroyed him next match on fast courts of ATP finals.

Hurkacz - 40erer and also knee-erer. Literally retired forever after that match with a thrashed knee.

List some more big slam matches where Fed lost to big servers. I don’t think you’ll find many unless Federer’s about to have surgery.
 
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thrust said:
Winning IS Winning, makes no difference how one does it, if done fairly.
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Well, I question fairly on Djokovic's part but that is pure speculation on my part. At any rate, from a player's perspective, I'd agree. From an integrity of the game perspective, I don't. That is why the shot clock was introduced in basketball. That is why the BESR and then BBCOR standard was brought about for baseball.

There are certain skills in tennis that are unique to tennis which make the sport what it is. Part of that is the ability and willingness to play offensively. Part of that, for sure, is to play defensively. There has to be an appropriate balance designed into the game itself. That's what makes tennis (any sport really) interesting to begin with. For tennis, excelling at offensive play has to be mandatory to win for it to be interesting. For Djokovic's play, I don't think that's a good long term positive trend for the sport. I think that was the case as serve bot tennis took hold as well.

So to bring it back, Federer was better at what tennis should be (making it interesting)...and Djokovic isn't. Tennis, the gameplay itself, needs to be changed to force players like Djokovic into playing more like Federer by default in order to be able to win. "How" one wins IS important.
 
mtommer said:
Because Federer has always been better at tennis. Federer won by skill. Djokovic by endurance and flexibility.
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You don't win at tennis by endurance and flexibility! Djokovic won by being well rounded skills (compare their BH's) and clutch!

I say Djokovic was at least as successful against big servers as Federer! I said that because Djokovic's win percentage was higher than Federer, in slams and non-slams.
 
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mtommer said:
Well, I question fairly on Djokovic's part but that is pure speculation on my part. At any rate, from a player's perspective, I'd agree. From an integrity of the game perspective, I don't. That is why the shot clock was introduced in basketball. That is why the BESR and then BBCOR standard was brought about for baseball.

There are certain skills in tennis that are unique to tennis which make the sport what it is. Part of that is the ability and willingness to play offensively. Part of that, for sure, is to play defensively. There has to be an appropriate balance designed into the game itself. That's what makes tennis (any sport really) interesting to begin with. For tennis, excelling at offensive play has to be mandatory to win for it to be interesting. For Djokovic's play, I don't think that's a good long term positive trend for the sport. I think that was the case as serve bot tennis took hold as well.

So to bring it back, Federer was better at what tennis should be (making it interesting)...and Djokovic isn't. Tennis, the gameplay itself, needs to be changed to force players like Djokovic into playing more like Federer by default in order to be able to win. "How" one wins IS important.
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I agree w the general sentiment.

If I had to trade Federer’s game for Novak’s slam record, I wouldn’t do it in a million years.

If your “goat” can’t do this, captivate like this, he can’t be my goat:

 
Stats show anyone saying Federer are wrong.

Yes Federer can handle his own game better vs servebots than Djokovic but on return it's unambiguously Djokovic. That is what stats show.
 
nolefam_2024 said:

Federer wins 151 matches loses 36.
First serve return won 28.45%
Second serve return won 52.35%


Djokovic wins 180 matches loses 33.
First serve return won 30.79%
Second serve return won 55.90%

So Djokovic won more first serve return pts and won more second serve return pts than Fed.
Won way more matches and lost less.
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@TennisGrandpA
 
better reflexes coupled with absolute all-time racket face control and awareness (i suppose you could call this 'hands'?). incredible ability to get those stab-saves in the court, and often, well-placed. fed/mac/rios are the three guys who just seemed to have absolute control over how they met the ball with the stringbed.
 
mental midget said:
better reflexes coupled with absolute all-time racket face control and awareness (i suppose you could call this 'hands'?). incredible ability to get those stab-saves in the court, and often, well-placed. fed/mac/rios are the three guys who just seemed to have absolute control over how they met the ball with the stringbed.
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Except fed didn't have better return vs big servers than nole. He didn't.
 
nolefam_2024 said:
Except fed didn't have better return vs big servers than nole. He didn't.
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Agree, statistically Novak was the better returner, this includes against 'big servers.' I'm speaking to a metric for which there are no stats: his uncanny ability to get so many seemingly unreturnable serves into play with crazy stabs and quick reflexes. This doesn't mean he went on to win as many return games as Novak, simply that he probably got more bombs back into play than Novak (who again, the stats say is simply the more effective returner over the course of a match.)
 
SonnyT said:
HAHAHA! What can I say!

Pardon me, didn't Nadal take advantage of Federer's BH to dominate him the first 2/3 of Federer's career to the tune of 23-10, advantage Nadal? And their rivalry started in '05!

The only slam that Federer won with a healthy Djokovic was the '12 WB! The last 3 slams that Federer played before Djokovic suffered an elbow injury in the middle of '16, Federer lost to Djokovic ('15 WB & US, '16 AO). The first 3 slams after Djokovic fixed his elbow, he won ('18 WB & US, '19 AO). In the process, he beat Nadal twice.

Federer won once in the slams between '11 and '17, so he was 1 for 28 with a healthy Djokovic, losing to Djokovic 8 times in the 28 slams. But he went 3 for his next 6 with an injured Djokovic!
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Nadal pigeoned Fed from 2008-2014 so 7 years

Fed played from 98-21 so 23 years

1/3 of his career was getting his butt kicked by Nadal but again, most of those matches were on clay. They only have three hardcourt Slam meetings
 
socallefty said:
Was he though? I seem to remember Wimbledon losses by Federer to Raonic, Andersen and Hurkacz and offhand, I can’t recall any Slam losses by Djokovic to bots if you don’t consider Quarrey as one. Are there some stats to show this as my memory seems to indicate both of them winning against servebots at their normal 80-85% career winning rate with the odd losses here and there.
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Citing the Hurkacz match, new low lol
 
His 1hbh gave him better reach than Nole, and his wrist was extremely firm. That in combination with great timing meant he was going to hit good blocks. And don't forget his backhand slice, which he used more often than not on first returns, and which allowed him to start the point neutral, or manageably defensive. If Novak sliced a return it wasn't going to be anywhere near as low or neutralizing since, unlike Federer, he didn't have a terrible topspin backhand that required him to develop a great slice.
 
Third Serve said:
I think this was only true for 2003-2007. Fed’s return declined a lot since then, and especially after 2012. His first serve return definitely took less damage compared to his second serve return though.

For sure though it was an excellent shot in his prime and could rival Djokovic’s.
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Only against big servers was it comparable or better than Nole's. Against a standard "good serve" his first serve backhand return was usually a slice which just started the point neutral. He didn't change that until 2017.
 
Rosstour said:
Nadal pigeoned Fed from 2008-2014 so 7 years

Fed played from 98-21 so 23 years

1/3 of his career was getting his butt kicked by Nadal but again, most of those matches were on clay. They only have three hardcourt Slam meetings
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They have 4. Three of which Nadal won.
 
socallefty said:
Was he though? I seem to remember Wimbledon losses by Federer to Raonic, Andersen and Hurkacz and offhand, I can’t recall any Slam losses by Djokovic to bots if you don’t consider Quarrey as one. Are there some stats to show this as my memory seems to indicate both of them winning against servebots at their normal 80-85% career winning rate with the odd losses here and there.
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TheFifthSet said:
Citing the Hurkacz match, new low lol
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For posterity I'll give this a serious reply: you can't lose to a style of player you don't run into. Djokovic has like 7 matches against servebots/borderline-reach-to-even-call-them-servebots his entire career: Ancic in '06, a journeyman era Anderson in '11, Anderson again in '15, Querrey in '16, an exhausted Anderson in '18, a pre-prime Hurkacz in '19, ancient Anderson in '21, Kyrgios in '22 and Hurkacz in '23.

That's nine matches (7-2). Going off memory but I promise I'm not missing much lol. Now lets compare that to:

Sampras '01, Ancic '02, Roddick and Scud in '03, Karlovic and Roddick in '04, Roddick in '05, Ancic in '06 and '08, Karlovic and Roddick in '09, Raonic in '14, Querrey and Groth in '15, Raonic in '16 and '17, non-exhausted Anderson in '18 and Hurkacz in his last professional match in '21.......eighteen matches against a vastly better cast of servers (14-4).................TELLS?
 
i am not sure what means "better"
i can only say for winning points, djoker is better (in terms of effectiveness)
for entertainment, fed is better as i love his silky style
 
The title of this thread clearly said Federer was a better returner than Djokovic, for the big servers. I challenge anyone to back it up!

It had to be a class of big servers, and it couldn't be several individuals, such as Roddick, who caught Djokovic as a teenager!
 
Holmes said:
His 1hbh gave him better reach than Nole, and his wrist was extremely firm. That in combination with great timing meant he was going to hit good blocks. And don't forget his backhand slice, which he used more often than not on first returns, and which allowed him to start the point neutral, or manageably defensive. If Novak sliced a return it wasn't going to be anywhere near as low or neutralizing since, unlike Federer, he didn't have a terrible topspin backhand that required him to develop a great slice.
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Excellent post. Against the big sluggish servers a block return would often not get punished that much. Novak would generally go for higher quality returns with his drive.

I have not looked that closely at the stats, but I guess Roger closed the return gap to Novak somewhat against the very best servers.
 
Rovesciarete said:
Excellent post. Against the big sluggish servers a block return would often not get punished that much. Novak would generally go for higher quality returns with his drive.

I have not looked that closely at the stats, but I guess Roger closed the return gap to Novak somewhat against the very best servers.
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Federer closed gap but was still behind.
 
socallefty said:
1st Serve return points won % - On ATP career Leaderboard, Nadal is #3, Alcaraz #4, Djokovic #6 and Federer #26.
2nd serve return points won % - Nadal #4, Djokovic #6, Alcaraz #24, Federer #113.
Total Return leaderboard - Nadal #3, Djokovic #7, Alcaraz #29, Federer #100

Individual Match Stats | ATP Tour | Tennis

www.atptour.com www.atptour.com

Leaderboard | ATP Tour | Tennis

Statistical measures of the best-performing players in three key categories in men's professional tennis.
www.atptour.com www.atptour.com

Yes, it includes clay which is one of the most popular surfaces in the world to play tennis and there is zero reason to exclude it. Federer could chip lower bouncing first serves better with his 1HBH and use the pace to return them deep. On higher bouncing, slower kick serves where he had to generate his own pace, he didn’t do as well. Similar to how he was a master on fast and low bouncing surfaces while slow, high bouncing clay was his worst surface. Considering how much of the tour is played on hard courts, it is a fantastic metric for Nadal to be ranked so high and above Djokovic who often gets lauded as the best returner.
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Still, rafa lost 4 consecutive in early rounds at Ws in his best years to 100+ ranked guys who did not have any big weapons besides serves. Fed lost to Andersson at W having MPs.
 
big ted said:
he returned roddicks serve better that’s for sure ;)
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the only match nole played with rodick after he reached his peak and the only match they played in noles era was at OG on grass that nole won 6-2, 6-1. one of the main reasons, according to himself, that he retired because he saw that he can not hang with top guys anymore.
 
i give big credit to todd martin for noles return GOAThood.

he messed his serv big time in 09-10 period that nole did not have any alternative than make his return even greater just to hang up with others.
 
GoatNo1 said:
the only match nole played with rodick after he reached his peak and the only match they played in noles era was at OG on grass that nole won 6-2, 6-1. one of the main reasons, according to himself, that he retired because he saw that he can not hang with top guys anymore.
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You are right Novak had to wait for roddicks shoulder to give out so he could return his serve well enough
 
Federer has bh chip return on the backhand wing
Djokovic thbh on the backhand wing
i think against monster serve the bh chip return is more percentage than the thbh (?!)
 
A young Federer wouldn't have beaten Sampras in 2001 Wimbledon if it wasn't for his great returner. Sampras was serving bomb that day and had Djokovic was facing him Sampras would have a field day
 
messiahrobins said:
In Federer's peak years 2004-2006 when he was at the very height of his powers he had a better return than Djokovic. His FH return was noticeably better and on his BH he had the ability to chip the return as well as drive it, but as he got older he lost that ability to drive the return on BH and his reflexes were a bit slower to his FH side as well. Djokovic was a more consistent returner in that he doesnt try to do much with the return other than make sure he gets it back in play which as the game became more baseline based with less net rushers was a good tactic. When Djokovic gets his racket on a return it goes in and nobody has been as consistent in that regard as Nole.
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Proof? Anybody has a license to say anything, but we need proof!

I can't imagine one who liked to block returns was able to be better than one who liked to take full swings.
 
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SonnyT said:
Proof? Anybody has a license to say anything, but we need proof!

I can't imagine one who liked to block returns was able to be better than one who liked to take full swings.
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YouTube has loads of Federer matches from his peak years. Perhaps start by watching his first Major final win in 2003
 
messiahrobins said:
YouTube has loads of Federer matches from his peak years. Perhaps start by watching his first Major final win in 2003
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The players of same age as Federer, like Roddick & Hewitt, were small fries! Federer needed not be at his best.

It's younger players who caused Federer endless trouble! Nadal was 11-4, and Djokovic was 11-6 at slams vs Federer! Where was peak Federer then?
 
SonnyT said:
The players of same age as Federer, like Roddick & Hewitt, were small fries! Federer needed not be at his best.
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Hewitt led Federer 7-2 in their head-to-head at the end of 2003.

Hewitt is underrated these days, as simple as that.

SonnyT said:
It's younger players who caused Federer endless trouble! Nadal was 11-4, and Djokovic was 11-6 at slams vs Federer! Where was peak Federer then?
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10-4 to Nadal vs. Federer in majors. 6-0 at the French Open, 3-1 at the Australian Open, and 1-3 at Wimbledon, famously never meeting at the US Open.
 
SonnyT said:
Djokovic was 11-6 at slams vs Federer! Where was peak Federer then?
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Um... He was past his peak for all of those losses except Mono-er in 2008.

During his peak, he was 4-1 v Novak.

Even by the end of 2013, well past his prime, Fed still had a 6-5 advantage.
  • Djokovic victories: 5 (2008 Australian Open, 2010 US Open, 2011 Australian Open, 2011 US Open, 2012 French Open)
  • Federer victories: 6 (2007 Australian Open, 2007 US Open, 2008 US Open, 2009 US Open, 2011 French Open, 2012 Wimbledon)
 
SonnyT said:
The players of same age as Federer, like Roddick & Hewitt, were small fries! Federer needed not be at his best.

It's younger players who caused Federer endless trouble! Nadal was 11-4, and Djokovic was 11-6 at slams vs Federer! Where was peak Federer then?
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You have never played sport have you. Federer struggled with Nadal no doubt. Djokovic wasn't an issue for him until he got past 30. Those are just facts.
 
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