Djokovic2011
Bionic Poster
Terminator 2 is amazing but Godfather Part II has to be the greatest sequel ever.
How competitive Fedkovic was on clay compared to other surfaces
- Thread starter Winner Sinner
- Start date
Hitman
Bionic Poster
The Godfather 2 is so good, many people often mix up the scenes of the first two movies, not knowing which one goes to which, because it is such a good sequel.
Nadal thought he had won 3rd set! He broke Djokovic's first service game in the 4th! Perhaps, he looked injured in the last few games of the 4th when he couldn't hold his serve!
It was Nadal's old trick: I lost because I was injured.
He was on crutches at the airport, looking crippled; next day, he was jet-skiing off his yacht.
Third Serve
Talk Tennis Guru
You could easily fit the table scene at the end into the first movie. Makes me kinda disappointed Brando didn’t return for the cameo though.
Hitman
Bionic Poster
Exactly.
He was competitive up to that point but then could barely run in that 4th set. He needed to get it done in 3/4.
Because for many here, all-time means only open era which began before many here were born or were very young.
Rafa4LifeEver
G.O.A.T.
I agree.
Dead balls + sauna conditions + literally nobody standing up except for old Rafa.
Nadal was speedy until he knew he couldn't regain the lost initiative in the 4th, then he pretended to be unable to run!
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The Blond Blur
G.O.A.T.
Just stop while you’re behind, lol
Nadal was competitive until his last RG in '22. Of course, he and Djokovic couldn't maintain their peaks in the 2010's, way past '11?
Did you not see their 5-setter in '13? Nadal was at his peak then, he substituted power for speed, on clay! He was sick of chasing after Djokovic's shots after '12 AO!
Poisoned Slice
Bionic Poster
Pay me what I'm worth or I'll stay on the couch. Unfortunately, Paramount didn't listen.
Or at least that is how it played out in my mind after everything read and heard about Marlon Brando through the years. Incredible actor but a bit of a Richard.
I stand behind what I said! I was never behind!Just stop while you’re behind, lol
Poisoned Slice
Bionic Poster
But this was Marlon Brando. He kept calling it Cripton and it didn't matter because he's Marlon Brando.
The Blond Blur
G.O.A.T.
That just means you’re doubling down on being wrong
nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
Not really true at all.
Federer 4-5 FOs? Highly likely several CYGS and several MCs, Italia and Madrid? 5 FOs would be on par with his 5USOs and 6AOs.
Same with Djokovic.
nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
If fed wins five then Nole wins 8.
They are not the same. Fed is 1 tier behind on clay.
Yeah Nole would probably win even more.
But without Rafa Fed would likely have 5 FOs and he would have been the top clay player from 2006-2011, even beat Djoko at FO2011. You cant call that one tier behind imo.
nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
I will have to calculate.
Roger had a living hell on clay. Never got any peace from superpeak Rafa, and later Djokovic joined the show.
nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
Now coming to Fedkovic, their peaks did not coincide especially on clay. Maybe for a year or two.
But let's see 2008 to 2012 is the only time they were really both at peak on clay.
2009 Djokovic lost without facing Fedal. 2010 both lost.
Its only 2008/11/12 three years. So while Rafa did make Roger suffer on clay, not Nole as much.
I think it would be very non competitive in BO5 on clay.
Competitive matches all happened on hard courts from way back in 2006 to 2020. 15 years.
Yeah it was 3 finals in a row losing FO to Rafa 06-08. You could probably put any player in his peak from any era in those finals, and Rafa would destroy them, so you cant really blame Roger. Then he won in 09, and in 10 he was tragedy after AO. Came back in 11-12. I think 4-5 FOs is a fair estimate without Rafa around.
Like you said, Fedovic had a short prime overlap on clay, after 2011-2012 you had defintely seen the best of Federer on clay. I think Rafole have distorted peoples perception of what you usually can expect in tennis. At 30+ the younger ATGs are usually starting to take over, so what happened to Federer is normal. You also see it now with only 2 of top20 being past 30 (Nole & Dimitrov). Rafole was an extreme anomaly, but recency bias is strong. There were plenty of threads with 30 is the new 25, and yet, here we are.
Why would he do that bro he went a break ahead. He couldn’t maintain his level physically and Djokovic took over. Nadal should’ve took that 3rd set tiebreak as he had the initiative. He had no chance in 5, his body gave in.
Djokodalerer31
Hall of Fame
I don't buy it! Remove all of his slam titles on clay and grass respectively and Djokovic still has 12 big titles on clay, 17 in total, while on grass LOL guess what? only 1 and it's not even ATP500 level tournament, just some irrelevant grass court event, that players usually play the last second before the main event and his competition for that tournament was pathetic in his worst year ever, he got Monfils in a grass courts final, Monfils Carl, his biggest pigeon! LOL Not to mention he defeated clay GOAT 9 freaking times in ALL of the big events, including Olympics this year, he scored everywhere against Nadal on clay where it matters at least once in his career, it should tell you something! Meanwhile take all of his Wimbledons away and what does he ends up with? Aggassi like career on grass...LMAO Again clay is NOT his worst surface, grass is...
nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
Very good analysis. Maybe give more details like how many true grass events are left in the world. Newport is gone now. You have no right to remove slam results when slams are the most important things in tennis.
Boneheaded moment.
nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
Pete Sampras only has 3 grass titles outside of Wimbledon and not one of them at 500 level.
Pretty weak player.
Maybe Andy Murray is better than Sampras on grass now because he has more titles on grass outside Wimbledon LMAO
Pretty weak player.
Maybe Andy Murray is better than Sampras on grass now because he has more titles on grass outside Wimbledon LMAO
Djokodalerer31
Hall of Fame
We shouldn't be handing titles of "king of the surface" based on what happening only at one tournament no matter how big it is...just like on clay there are other grass court tournaments, each with various speeds and conditions, Queen's Club is still one of the fastest resembling true 90's grass (or at least close to), others are a little slower, but still not as slow as Wimbledon is these days (especially on 2nd week, when grass courts gets trotten and play more like fast maroon clay)...Wimbledon is historically the biggest and single most important grass court tournament, so it only makes sense for a GOAT-tier legend like Djokovic to be focused on that, because that's the one, that everyone dream winning...that says more about tournament's status than Djokovic's abilities to excell on grass...the whole thing is misleading, just because it's the Wimbledon, aka the historic battleground of most of the biggest and most significant matches in the history...If we were to replace the surface at the Wimbledon and turn back the time to when Djokovic first a had a run to the title back in 2011 he would still be winning it the same amount of times (which is 7) even if it was on ice! LOL Because to win big, you have to face big competition and that's where all the biggest competition usually is on grass - the Wimbledon and not just grass, but in general!...My argument is simply that his unusual/unlikely success has more to do with the status of the event, rather than surface being as a deciding factor...
nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
NOPE sorry very wrong opinions can pollute the board
Djokodalerer31
Hall of Fame
Can you please give me a better argument than that, because i got plenty to support my claim, what are yours to refute all of those points i made? Just this - "You are wrong and i am right!" that's it?...
nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
To anyone that is honest, grass has been synonymous with Wimbledon for DECADES. If you own Wimbledon, you are king of grass.
Great Bjorn didn't have time to slum around 250s in his time after grueling clay campaign and he won 5 in a row at Wimbledon.
Nole won 4 in a row and has already created an aura on grass.
Who cares who was winning Queens and Halle if they couldn't win the big one. Its not like clay at all where there is time to prepare.
Great Bjorn didn't have time to slum around 250s in his time after grueling clay campaign and he won 5 in a row at Wimbledon.
Nole won 4 in a row and has already created an aura on grass.
Who cares who was winning Queens and Halle if they couldn't win the big one. Its not like clay at all where there is time to prepare.
Djokodalerer31
Hall of Fame
The argument is more about the notion behind the reason of such a success, not to dispute or refute statistical facts or historical significance of each particular result. The reason behind Novak's success as a grass courter at the Wimbledon is not because of the surface it is played on, but because of the status of the tournament (He tries extra harder there, because that's where the stakes are highest historically! So he pushes harder and has bigger success because of that!). If Wimbledon was historically played on clay, you would be your bottoms Novak would have won almost as many times there as he did on grass even with Nadal around!...
nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
Sorry , this is a lot like a word salad to me.
Djokodalerer31
Hall of Fame
Sorry i simply cannot dumb it down to your level, you don't seem to grasp simple concept of sentences and phrases...or just refuse to accept my points, which are perfectly valid...whatever that is, i refuse to participate in this polemic any further, let's either switch the subject entirely or let's just ignore each other from now on...i'm done here, i've already explained everything i can in the simpliest of terms imaginable to prove my point and if you still don't see at least where i come from my perspective, there is nothing that can convince you, i'll stay with my opinion, you can do whatever the heck you want with yours...
nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
Thank you
Djokodalerer31
Hall of Fame
And don't get this funny idea, that you somehow "won the argument", you didn't...i still think your is a full of stench and i stick to mine, it's just that i don't see what else i can say that can make you at least open minded about it...all you do here is say - "I am right you are wrong bla bla bla" it' just a trolling, not a productive argument, if you had something more productive to say we could have kept this going for a while, but i don't see a point arguing with someone, whose best clapbacks boil down to - "I am right and you are wrong"...NOW i am done! Ciao!
nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
Thank you. Be done dont reply and don't spread these theories that no one in right mind on ttw will buy
JoJoHackshow
Rookie
Federer beat Djokovic on clay in both of his peakiest years ever, 2011 and 2015 (or was it 2014? Doesn't matter...) despite the former being well out of his prime in those years.
As someone else mentioned, Federer is the superior player, but didn't have the privilege of benefiting from the CIE like Nole did
As someone else mentioned, Federer is the superior player, but didn't have the privilege of benefiting from the CIE like Nole did
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
It's pretty rare for him to play a tournament on grass outside of Wimbledon, and he's one the rare dominant Wimbledon champions who goes in with no grass play all year and won it over and over. Borg was another one. If there was a real grass season like clay season, there's no doubt he'd have lots of grass titles. Saying the reason this is his worst surface because of lack of titles doesn't hold up. He won Wimbledon 6 times without playing a grass warmup which is the most of any male player in the Open Era.
nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
Grass is pretty different than clay and hc. You can't use big titles or any other words for a surface that's played for just 3/4 weeks like you said. Just Wimbledon is enough.
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
For Djokovic, Wimbledon is enough. He's played 19 Wimbledons. He's only played a grass tournament outside Wimbledon 8 times in his career and one was the Olympics.
nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
It's rather sad that grass has short season or Nole would win a lot more big titles on grass.
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
I wish there was a grass Masters and a true grass season so we could see more grass tennis tbh.
