How did Rafael Nadal beat Novak Djokovic in the 2013 US Open Final?

Mr Feeny

Hall of Fame
It robbed us all an opportunity to see a tighter match but it certainly didn't deny Federer a victory, Djokovic was unstoppable at that tournament.

And when you look at it better, it's also kind of hypocritical when mono is desperately used like that. Whenever Novak retired during a match no matter what the reason was, a lot of people called him fake, coming up with comments like "If you start the match, you are fit to play", "He is trying to put a stain on his opponent's win". In this case the match was even completed but hey it was decided by mono and not by Djokovic's near perfect performance.

Come on mate. Djokovic retiring for whatever reason (as many players do ) is nothing like mono. Federer had made 10 straight finals. He dominated that tour until the aussie where even tipsaravic nearly put him out and badly outplayed Federer. Scrubs were beating him. Mardy fish waxed him that spring.

You're entitled to your opinion but very few are going to credit Novak for that, seeing as how Federer was being manhandled by everyone in the early part of that year.

Mono is not an excuse. And it's not like a player retiring for tiredness or niggling aches or anything else.
 

Mr Feeny

Hall of Fame
It robbed us all an opportunity to see a tighter match but it certainly didn't deny Federer a victory, Djokovic was unstoppable at that tournament.

And when you look at it better, it's also kind of hypocritical when mono is desperately used like that. Whenever Novak retired during a match no matter what the reason was, a lot of people called him fake, coming up with comments like "If you start the match, you are fit to play", "He is trying to put a stain on his opponent's win". In this case the match was even completed but hey it was decided by mono and not by Djokovic's near perfect performance.

It's not used "desperately". It's a legitimate excuse. Federer shouldn't have even been out there playing.

As for the analogy, how many times has Novak quit in the middle of a match and how many times has federer. THAT is the reason people call Djokovic fake. The sheer number of times he'd done it. Whether they're right or wrong.

For an iron man like Federer who rarely misses a match or retired, it's not desperation.
 
C

Charlie

Guest
Come on mate. Djokovic retiring for whatever reason (as many players do ) is nothing like mono. Federer had made 10 straight finals. He dominated that tour until the aussie where even tipsaravic nearly put him out and badly outplayed Federer. Scrubs were beating him. Mardy fish waxed him that spring.

You're entitled to your opinion but very few are going to credit Novak for that, seeing as how Federer was being manhandled by everyone in the early part of that year.

Mono is not an excuse. And it's not like a player retiring for tiredness or niggling aches or anything else.
It's not used "desperately". It's a legitimate excuse. Federer shouldn't have even been out there playing.

As for the analogy, how many times has Novak quit in the middle of a match and how many times has federer. THAT is the reason people call Djokovic fake. The sheer number of times he'd done it. Whether they're right or wrong.

For an iron man like Federer who rarely misses a match or retired, it's not desperation.
I am not saying mono didn't make Federer play worse, clearly it did. But he played the match, it lasted about 3 hours, tight 3 setter, good effort, but Djokovic was just too good. He proved himself at AO many times again after all, both against Fed and other opponents. Fed's run of consecutive Slam finals was legendary but it had to end at some point. Doesn't mean only health issues could stop him. He had to slow down after his incredible few years of dominance, just like any other great, father time does it's job while younger players step up as well. As for giving Novak credit I really don't care about it, pretty much all of his wins over Federer have been questioned for one reason or another, I stopped paying much attention about that and focused on enjoying both of their games.
 

mike danny

Bionic Poster
I am not saying mono didn't make Federer play worse, clearly it did. But he played the match, it lasted about 3 hours, tight 3 setter, good effort, but Djokovic was just too good. He proved himself at AO many times again after all, both against Fed and other opponents. Fed's run of consecutive Slam finals was legendary but it had to end at some point. Doesn't mean only health issues could stop him. He had to slow down after his incredible few years of dominance, just like any other great, father time does it's job while younger players step up as well. As for giving Novak credit I really don't care about it, pretty much all of his wins over Federer have been questioned for one reason or another, I stopped paying much attention about that and focused on enjoying both of their games.
The thing is, Fed's run didn't end at that 2008 AO. His run extended until 2010 AO.

Fed though wasn't in great form that AO. He was pushed to 10-8 in the 5th set by Tipsarevic.
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
Fair. I can agree with this. Everyone has their own interpretation- and mine is that Djoko has a chance against Fed at USO peak for peak. At Cincy, no chance, but at the USO, he does.
Of course he has a chance, but it's not that big.What I was objecting to was that somehow according to you Nole is a bigger fav at the AO than federer at the USO. That's not backed up by their respective peak levels.

Sent from my MotoG3 using Tapatalk
 
C

Charlie

Guest
The thing is, Fed's run didn't end at that 2008 AO. His run extended until 2010 AO.

Fed though wasn't in great form that AO. He was pushed to 10-8 in the 5th set by Tipsarevic.
Semifinal streak yes. Final streak of 10 in a row ended at 2008 AO and then he went on a new one of 8 in a row.

Definitely. He could have lost to Tsonga/Nadal too. I just think Djokovic would have come out victorious that year even if Federer had no issues, that's all. I apologize to @Mr Feeny if I gave an impression that I was questioning that mono existed or that I said it didn't affect his tennis.
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
Using the excuse mono.. don't do that. Just looks bad.
That's the reality. If you can't handle it, too bad for you.

As well as djoko played, fed would've the fav(not by too much) , had he not been sick and if he was in prime form (like the previous tournament he played - YEc 07 or the previous AO - 07)

Sent from my MotoG3 using Tapatalk
 

mike danny

Bionic Poster
Semifinal streak yes. Final streak of 10 in a row ended at 2008 AO and then he went on a new one of 8 in a row.

Definitely. He could have lost to Tsonga/Nadal too. I just think Djokovic would have come out victorious that year even if Federer had no issues, that's all. I apologize to @Mr Feeny if I gave an impression that I was questioning that mono existed or that I said it didn't affect his tennis.
Oh definitely, Djokovic was on fire. A better playing Fed would have probably still lost, but not in straights. More like in 4 tough or 5 sets.
 
Fed though wasn't in great form that AO. He was pushed to 10-8 in the 5th set by Tipsarevic.

Not to say Federer was playing that well, but using the Tipsarevic match to prove the whole tournament was a failure for Fed isn't really fair.

I got to see the match in full just recently and the only thing about Fed that I didn't like was his clutchness. He served for the 1st set and had set points into the 3rd. Djokovic played awesome to save himself each time. Nothing wrong with Fed.

He played below par, but facing a zoning Djokovic in the 2nd. And yet again, from a poor set that nearly ended 6-1 he went as far as nearly breaking Djokovic twice in a row. Djokovic saved it in the last moment with huge serves.

Nothing wrong with Fed from my perspective.
 

AnOctorokForDinner

Talk Tennis Guru
His level was much higher in 2011 on HC. Most consecutive finals he ever made across all surfaces.

So, you talk HC, but then throw an all-surface stat to support your view. That's dishonest.

Let us compare the hardcourt records.

2011dull on HC:

Doha - bagelled by Lacko (who?), owned by past-it Denko in SF (Kolya was not the same player after the 2010 wrist injury; Doha 2010 F was a much better match between the two)

AO - owned by Ferrer (injury)

IW - makes it to the final with a soft draw (no top 80 players faced), loses to Djokovic while barely making 30% 1st serves in the last two sets - how can it be called "good level" when 1st serve cannot be found?

Miami - Nadal was actually in great form here, bulldozed into the final and barely lost to Djok in 3rd set TB.

Canada - massive choke to Dodig.

Cincy - barely beats Verdasco saving multiple match points, then loses to Fish easily

USO - another soft draw to the final, only to get tamed by BOATovic (Nadal has to play out of his skin to even take a set, lel)

Tokyo - destroyed by Mandy in the last two sets.

Shanghai - easy loss to Mayer.

WTF - barely beats Fish, loses a close one to Tsonga, completely dissected by GOATerer


2013dull on HC:

IW - wins with a better draw, although Fedzie was injured, and going a set and a break down to a clearly inferior del Potro was not great. Wouldn't put struggling vs Gulbis against him, Ernie was GOATing on the offence until he choked. All in all maybe a bit better than in 2011.

Canada - outclutched Novack. Botnic in the final was as soft as it gets, but still a much better perf than 2011.

Cincy - made the most of his opportunity and was clutch not to lose a set to Birdie and Jizzner. Struggling with 2013muger wasn't great, but again this is a much better level than 2011.

USO - typical soft draw and Djokester was underwhelming, but still Noodli had to show big balls to snatch that 3rd set under No2e's nose. Looks clear to me than Nadal was better while Djokovic was worse than 2 years prior.

Beijing - rolls into the final and gets shut out by BOATov2c. Nothing unusual here.

Shanghai - clutches into semis but is outplayed and outclutched by Delpo. Obviously better than 2011.

Paris - loses to pidgeon Ferrer in semis, now that's not great.

WTF - tough to say. 2011 was more passive, but 2013 had a softer draw (Purrdick, Ferrer, 2013muger) and still got easily swatted in the final. I'd lean towards 2013 for being clutch against Wawrinka (won in TBs despite winning fewer points).


Don't see where 2011 is better, other than playing more HC tournaments.
 

AnOctorokForDinner

Talk Tennis Guru
I got to see the match in full just recently and the only thing about Fed that I didn't like was his clutchness. He served for the 1st set and had set points into the 3rd. Djokovic played awesome to save himself each time. Nothing wrong with Fed.

He played below par, but facing a zoning Djokovic in the 2nd. And yet again, from a poor set that nearly ended 6-1 he went as far as nearly breaking Djokovic twice in a row. Djokovic saved it in the last moment with huge serves.

Nothing wrong with Fed from my perspective.

Bolded 1 is the first sign - increased mental midgetry. 04-07fedr didn't mug up like that in hard/grass majors, other than AO 06 when he was not 100% either.

Bolded 2 is the second sign - increased inconsistency. That was highly visible later over the course of 2008, repeatedly going back and forth between Magicianerer and Mugerer in every tournament.

Isn't that what's been happening to Djovack? He hasn't been that bad, either, but his mentality is greatly weakened, and the Chokovic moments are much more frequent than previously when he was owning. Decline isn't just switching off.
 

K-H

Hall of Fame
His level was much higher in 2011 on HC. Most consecutive finals he ever made across all surfaces.
His level wasn't higher in 2011. Nadal won Montreal beating a really good Djokovic in the process. He then won Cincinnati a tournament he's never won before because he doesn't play as well there but did in 2013. He also only got broken a few times from Montreal to US open breaking some record in the process. And of course he won the American series of Montreal Cincinnati and US Open something fed and Djokovic couldn't even do. And you think 2011 level was higher please. If you watch him properly you'll know his FHDTL was better in 2013.
 

Tennisanity

Legend
So, you talk HC, but then throw an all-surface stat to support your view. That's dishonest.

Let us compare the hardcourt records.

2011dull on HC:

Doha - bagelled by Lacko (who?), owned by past-it Denko in SF (Kolya was not the same player after the 2010 wrist injury; Doha 2010 F was a much better match between the two)

AO - owned by Ferrer (injury)

IW - makes it to the final with a soft draw (no top 80 players faced), loses to Djokovic while barely making 30% 1st serves in the last two sets - how can it be called "good level" when 1st serve cannot be found?

Miami - Nadal was actually in great form here, bulldozed into the final and barely lost to Djok in 3rd set TB.

Canada - massive choke to Dodig.

Cincy - barely beats Verdasco saving multiple match points, then loses to Fish easily

USO - another soft draw to the final, only to get tamed by BOATovic (Nadal has to play out of his skin to even take a set, lel)

Tokyo - destroyed by Mandy in the last two sets.

Shanghai - easy loss to Mayer.

WTF - barely beats Fish, loses a close one to Tsonga, completely dissected by GOATerer


2013dull on HC:

IW - wins with a better draw, although Fedzie was injured, and going a set and a break down to a clearly inferior del Potro was not great. Wouldn't put struggling vs Gulbis against him, Ernie was GOATing on the offence until he choked. All in all maybe a bit better than in 2011.

Canada - outclutched Novack. Botnic in the final was as soft as it gets, but still a much better perf than 2011.

Cincy - made the most of his opportunity and was clutch not to lose a set to Birdie and Jizzner. Struggling with 2013muger wasn't great, but again this is a much better level than 2011.

USO - typical soft draw and Djokester was underwhelming, but still Noodli had to show big balls to snatch that 3rd set under No2e's nose. Looks clear to me than Nadal was better while Djokovic was worse than 2 years prior.

Beijing - rolls into the final and gets shut out by BOATov2c. Nothing unusual here.

Shanghai - clutches into semis but is outplayed and outclutched by Delpo. Obviously better than 2011.

Paris - loses to pidgeon Ferrer in semis, now that's not great.

WTF - tough to say. 2011 was more passive, but 2013 had a softer draw (Purrdick, Ferrer, 2013muger) and still got easily swatted in the final. I'd lean towards 2013 for being clutch against Wawrinka (won in TBs despite winning fewer points).


Don't see where 2011 is better, other than playing more HC tournaments.

You injected a lot of subjective views into that. I can do the same by simply saying he moved better and made better shots in 2011.
 

Tennisanity

Legend
His level wasn't higher in 2011. Nadal won Montreal beating a really good Djokovic in the process. He then won Cincinnati a tournament he's never won before because he doesn't play as well there but did in 2013. He also only got broken a few times from Montreal to US open breaking some record in the process. And of course he won the American series of Montreal Cincinnati and US Open something fed and Djokovic couldn't even do. And you think 2011 level was higher please. If you watch him properly you'll know his FHDTL was better in 2013.

Djokovic's level was dramatically lower in 2013 vs. 2011.
 

AnOctorokForDinner

Talk Tennis Guru
You injected a lot of subjective views into that. I can do the same by simply saying he moved better and made better shots in 2011.
Indeed, so they carry no real weight, just typical forum banter.
Can you point me to where you acknowledge your statements are opinionated and as such have no objective value? Or do you fail to acknowledge that?
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
That's because ran into better competition.

you mean like losing to dodig at Canada masters and Fish in cincy ? :rolleyes:
meanwhile he beat djokovic and Raonic in Canada in 13 ; federer, berdych and isner in cincy 13.

slow HC is debatable ( he won IW in 13, but was aided by delpo being tired ; 11, he reached final of IW and miami & got injured at the AO), but fast HC he was clearly better in 13.
 

cc0509

Talk Tennis Guru
It was a bit surprising. The 6-2 and 6-2 were petty brutal, especially since the majority of pundits going into the match had Novak as favorite. Nadal turned back the clock and went Bull-mode there.

He did but it wasn't surprising to me at all given his 2013 year on hc.
 

cc0509

Talk Tennis Guru
USO 13 final :

djokovic had 46 W to 53 UEs
nadal had 27 W to 20 UEs.

nadal was pushed on the backfoot and played passively for most part when djoko played aggressive tennis and got the ball in in sets 2 and 3.
he was just clutch and managed to escape with some help from djokovic in set 3.

djokovic missed a lot in sets 1 and 4.

how on earth does that translate to nadal playing aggressive tennis ?


Contrast to a match where nadal did actually play aggressive tennis , USO 10 final

nadal had 49 W to 31 UEs
djokovic had 45 W to 47 UEs.

To me Nadal looked more aggressive in that entire match except for that one set which he lost. Nadal looked completely in control for most of the match and I never got the sense he would lose the match. Remember the USO 2013 win capped off his sweeping of the summer hc season. It was the best and most consistent period I've ever seen Nadal play on hc outside of his great outlier hc matches such as the 2010 USO final, the 2009 AO final vs Federer, etc.
 

Backspin1183

Talk Tennis Guru
Djokovic played as bad as he did in 2011 final and got his S handed to him. :D

Seriously, Djokovic played well but Nadal was better. It wasn't Djokovic's highest level but he was good. You can dug out the match thread of the 2013 final and you'd find my prediction prior to the match that Nadal would win 4 sets. Would win 1st set but his level would drop in 2 and then win the next 2 sets. I predicted this because I knew Nadal was playing great and serving well.

Federer fans at the time were afraid that Nadal would keep beating Djokovic from that point on and break the Slam record. You got the worst Nadal hate from Fed fangirls in 2013. I remember there was this Federer fan blog where the blog owner wrote a depressing article after Nadal's 2013 USO win that he was unstoppable. And now these same RF fangirls going around saying how Nadal didn't play that good but Djokovic gifted him the title. LoL I am happy to remind you that a certain GOAT tanked a match to avoid playing Nadal in 2013 USO form.
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
To me Nadal looked more aggressive in that entire match except for that one set which he lost. Nadal looked completely in control for most of the match and I never got the sense he would lose the match. Remember the USO 2013 win capped off his sweeping of the summer hc season. It was the best and most consistent period I've ever seen Nadal play on hc outside of his great outlier hc matches such as the 2010 USO final, the 2009 AO final vs Federer, etc.

1. how on earth was in he more aggressive in the 3rd set ?

3rd set :

djoko : 17 W to 17 UEs
nadal : 6 W to 6 UEs

djoko : 26 W+forced errors to 17 UEs
nadal : 17 W+forced errors to 6 UEs

https://web-beta.archive.org/web/20...n.org:80/en_US/scores/stats/day21/1701ms.html

its a joke to suggest that nadal was more aggressive in the 3rd set when he djoko had 11 more winners or 9 more winners+forced errors

2. As far as being in control goes :

a) at 2:03:36, nadal broken to love at 0-0
b) at 2:05:22 , commentator : "this is almost becoming one-sided. it seems incredible given the standard of tennis that we've seen , particularly from nadal early on. djokovic just looks supremely confident."
c) then djoko holds at 40 to make it 2-0.
d) then at 2:14:37, djoko hits a great FH return winner to get another BP ..
commentator : "is he going to break nadal for a 4th straight time", not 2nd, not 3rd, 4th !
then djoko hits a BH CC long - an UE, wasn't that tough.
So nadal was a point away from being a double break down, from being 0-3 down.
e) at 2:43:20, nadal is down 0-40, 4 all, facing 3 BPs ..he saves all 3 and gets out of jail with clutch play.(including one fh winner and one ace )

hardly constitutes being in control of the 3rd set ...djoko was in control...nadal just barely took it.


3. At 5-4 in the 3rd set (2:52:07)
djoko : 19 W to 40 UEs
nadal : 9 W to 17 UEs

djoko had twice the # the # of winners from his fh than nadal ( both dominant wings for them in this match (twice the # of UEs as well - many from the 1st and some extent from 2nd and 3rd set )

3. yes, the 2013 US HC season was probably nadal's best stretch on HC . its somewhat debatable considering his 2009 slow HC season - AO win beating fed/dasco, IW win beating murray/nalby, miami QF loss to delpo. (rotterdam final loss to murray - he was clearly injured)
But the USO final wasn't really his very best tennis. ( well, sets 1 and 4 were, but not 2 and 3 )

AO 09 final , USO 10 final were hardly outlier matches. He was playing well throughout those tournaments - AO 09/USO 10.
 
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cc0509

Talk Tennis Guru
1. how on earth was in he more aggressive in the 3rd set ?

3rd set :

djoko : 17 W to 17 UEs
nadal : 6 W to 6 UEs

djoko : 26 W+forced errors to 17 UEs
nadal : 17 W+forced errors to 6 UEs

https://web-beta.archive.org/web/20...n.org:80/en_US/scores/stats/day21/1701ms.html

its a joke to suggest that nadal was more aggressive in the 3rd set when he djoko had 11 more winners or 9 more winners+forced errors

2. As far as being in control goes :

a) at 2:03:36, nadal broken to love at 0-0
b) at 2:05:22 , commentator : "this is almost becoming one-sided. it seems incredible given the standard of tennis that we've seen , particularly from nadal early on. djokovic just looks supremely confident."
c) then djoko holds at 40 to make it 2-0.
d) then at 2:14:37, djoko hits a great FH return winner to get another BP ..
commentator : "is he going to break nadal for a 4th straight time", not 2nd, not 3rd, 4th !
then djoko hits a BH CC long - an UE, wasn't that tough.
So nadal was a point away from being a double break down, from being 0-3 down.
e) at 2:43:20, nadal is down 0-40, 4 all, facing 3 BPs ..he saves all 3 and gets out of jail with clutch play.(including one fh winner and one ace )

hardly constitutes being in control of the 3rd set ...djoko was in control...nadal just barely took it.


3. yes, the 2013 US HC season was probably nadal's best stretch on HC . its somewhat debatable considering his 2009 slow HC season - AO win beating fed/dasco, IW win beating murray/nalby, miami QF loss to delpo. (rotterdam final loss to murray - he was clearly injured)
But the USO final wasn't really his very best tennis. ( well, sets 1 and 4 were, but not 2 and 3 )

AO 09 final , USO 10 final were hardly outlier matches. He was playing well throughout those tournaments - AO 09/USO 10.

When I watched the USO 2013 final, I always felt Nadal looked more aggressive throughout most of that match and I felt he had control throughout most of that match. You can post all of the stats in the world but I never felt Djokovic would win that match and Nadal always looked like the superior player except for in the one set he lost. It looked like a day when Nadal didn't intend to lose. We haven't seen that type of Nadal for a few years. These days he's been losing finals at warp speed whereas at his best or in his prime(outside of the 2011 finals vs Djokovic) when he made a final how many times did he lose them?

In the Djokovic vs Nadal rivalry it's been up and down in terms of which player was in charge. Before 2011, Nadal was in charge. In 2011 and early 2012, Djokovic was in charge, in 2013 it was Nadal again and post 2014 it has been Djokovic. Will it change again? It will be interesting to see what happens now.
 

JoelSandwich

Hall of Fame
The thing is, Fed's run didn't end at that 2008 AO. His run extended until 2010 AO.

Fed though wasn't in great form that AO. He was pushed to 10-8 in the 5th set by Tipsarevic.
I do agree that he wasn't in great form but I thought Tipsarevic was awesome in that match. He would have been tough that day for anyone in the tournament.
 

Mr Feeny

Hall of Fame
Djokovic played as bad as he did in 2011 final and got his S handed to him. :D

Seriously, Djokovic played well but Nadal was better. It wasn't Djokovic's highest level but he was good. You can dug out the match thread of the 2013 final and you'd find my prediction prior to the match that Nadal would win 4 sets. Would win 1st set but his level would drop in 2 and then win the next 2 sets. I predicted this because I knew Nadal was playing great and serving well.

Federer fans at the time were afraid that Nadal would keep beating Djokovic from that point on and break the Slam record. You got the worst Nadal hate from Fed fangirls in 2013. I remember there was this Federer fan blog where the blog owner wrote a depressing article after Nadal's 2013 USO win that he was unstoppable. And now these same RF fangirls going around saying how Nadal didn't play that good but Djokovic gifted him the title. LoL I am happy to remind you that a certain GOAT tanked a match to avoid playing Nadal in 2013 USO form.

Saying that federer tanked any match to avoid Nadal is laughable. Federer could have avoided Nadal many times when he wouldn't have been favored e.g. 5 times during the French Open and this year's Aussie but he didn't tank because great players aren't wired this way.

Federer was derided for not letting Stan beat him to "have a better chance of beating Nadal" in the final this year. Yet he didn't. Great players believe in themselevs and Federer always did. Even when he ended up losing the next match.
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
When I watched the USO 2013 final, I always felt Nadal looked more aggressive throughout most of that match and I felt he had control throughout most of that match. You can post all of the stats in the world but I never felt Djokovic would win that match and Nadal always looked like the superior player except for in the one set he lost. It looked like a day when Nadal didn't intend to lose. We haven't seen that type of Nadal for a few years. These days he's been losing finals at warp speed whereas at his best or in his prime(outside of the 2011 finals vs Djokovic) when he made a final how many times did he lose them?

In the Djokovic vs Nadal rivalry it's been up and down in terms of which player was in charge. Before 2011, Nadal was in charge. In 2011 and early 2012, Djokovic was in charge, in 2013 it was Nadal again and post 2014 it has been Djokovic. Will it change again? It will be interesting to see what happens now.

I can say whatever I want. So can you. But it isn't going to make it true.
If I say federer played just ok tennis and took a peaking nadal to 5 sets at Rome 06 final, it isn't going to make it true.

go through all the posts here :
https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/ind...nal-nadal-v-djokovic-with-poll.476388/page-23

many of them point out nadal being quite passive. I could post atleast 15-20 of them. do you want me to ?
the stats show that as well.
you denying that isn't going to change it.

it very much looked like nadal could lose the 3rd set when he was down BP for a double break in the 3rd set or when he was down 0-40 4 all. If you are saying, it never felt like nadal could lose the 3rd set, then frankly you are delusional ...

how could nadal 'look' more aggressive when djokovic was better as far as winners+forced errors go ( with some margin ) ( both were about even defensively ) ?

seriously leave the denial.
 
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Cup8489

G.O.A.T.
I'm a little stunned to see people claiming that djokovic played crap. I saw Nadal pummeling the ball and hitting the forehand up the line with ridiculous power and precision.

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk
 

cc0509

Talk Tennis Guru
I can say whatever I want. So can you. But it isn't going to make it true.
If I say federer played just ok tennis and took a peaking nadal to 5 sets at Rome 06 final, it isn't going to make it true.

go through all the posts here :
https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/ind...nal-nadal-v-djokovic-with-poll.476388/page-23

many of them point out nadal being quite passive. I could post atleast 15-20 of them. do you want me to ?
the stats show that as well.
you denying that isn't going to change it.

it very much looked like nadal could lose the 3rd set when he was down BP for a double break in the 3rd set or when he was down 0-40 4 all. If you are saying, it never felt like nadal could lose the 3rd set, then frankly you are delusional ...

how could nadal 'look' more aggressive when djokovic was better as far as winners+forced errors go ( with some margin ) ( both were about even defensively ) ?

seriously leave the denial.

Honestly, you are never going to look at this objectively because you dislike Nadal so much. I dislike Djokovic but it's clear to me that in 2011 and early 2012 and post 2014, Djokovic was relentless in his game plan vs Nadal and Djokovic had the upper hand. When I look at that USO 2013 final between Djokovic and Nadal, IMO Nadal was the more aggressive player, the superior player, the one in control most of the time. I never thought Djokovic would win that match much like how I never thought Nadal stood a chance vs Djokovic in 2011 or post 2014. Give Nadal some credit for that 2013 USO final and for his 2013 summer hc dominance. He was better on hc than Djokovic was during that time. It is what it is.
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
Honestly, you are never going to look at this objectively because you dislike Nadal so much. I dislike Djokovic but it's clear to me that in 2011 and early 2012 and post 2014, Djokovic was relentless in his game plan vs Nadal and Djokovic had the upper hand. When I look at that USO 2013 final between Djokovic and Nadal, IMO Nadal was the more aggressive player, the superior player, the one in control most of the time. I never thought Djokovic would win that match much like how I never thought Nadal stood a chance vs Djokovic in 2011 or post 2014. Give Nadal some credit for that 2013 USO final and for his 2013 summer hc dominance. He was better on hc than Djokovic was during that time. It is what it is.

Everything what I said is backed up by reality. The stats, the posts here during the final. The stats show what I say . That is being objective.

RG 2013 was one occasion where nadal was in control, more aggressive. The stats show that. 61 W from nadal to 54 from djokovic IIRC.
So was USO 10 final , the stats show that again. Like I showed, 49 W to 31 UEs from nadal and 45 W to 47 UEs from djokovic.

again, its your objective to somehow make it look like nadal was oh so aggressive in that final vs djokovic in USO 13....well, he wasn't. 27 W to 46 W is a big difference. The W+Forced errors difference is also more than 10 in djokovic's favour. He was the more aggressive player.

Nadal was aggressive in USO 10, in RG 13, even in canada 13. but not this final.

again, explain how the hell was nadal the more aggressive player with far less winner+forced errors ? how was he in control of the 3rd set when he nearly went down a double break and could've been broken at 4 all ?
this is 90sclay level of denial from you. bringing up my supposed hate for nadal ( I dislike nadal to an extent, but I don't hate him ) is another level :rolleyes:...

yes, nadal was aggressive in general that HC summer. But when djokovic pushed him back in the USO 13 final, he reverted to a passive style of play ( sets 2 and 3 ) , unlike at RG where he grew more aggressive and hit out in the 5th set. That's the reality. Too bad you can't deal with it.

Of course nadal was better on hc than djokovic that summer. Where the hell did I deny that ?
 
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abmk

Bionic Poster
Honestly, you are never going to look at this objectively because you dislike Nadal so much.

yeah, right !

here's a list of posts from nadal "haters" in that match thread ...

Seriously Nadal has drifted back to his defensive pre 2010 tactics. I don't really understand. Where is the aggression of Montreal 2013? Is he still scared of Djokovic?


Djokovic is "dictating" because Nadal is letting him. He hits a pretty weak serve then immediately falls back playing defense.

Djokovic has some nice shots at times, but Nadal did too in the first set. He completely went away in the second set.

Nadal has got to attack more. Staying as far behind the baseline as he did late in the second set, is madness.

And there's the early break! Nadal playing like a scared kitty now. When he's dictating, he's a monster, but when someone takes that away from him he doesn't look so scary. He's just defending, lobbing and slicing balls back desperately, and allowing Novak to tee up.

Jeeze, why does Nadal use the losing tactics, when he did so well in the HCs?

He's playing so much defense now. Has to run a lot more. That's why he's sluggish. He is not being aggressive as he was in Montreal, Djokovic is just standing and dictating.

If Nadal continues like this, he's going to lose, no matter what. Match is totally on Djoker's racquet. Rafa has forgotten the aggression that got him French Open final and the Montreal match.

Come on Rafa, be aggressive on these returns!

Nadal PUSHING PUSHING PUSHING. What the hell is wrong with him? He'll get tired quickly.

I agree with you, Nadal looks sad right now. Yeah he's back in the match but it ain't pretty.

Nadal's first serve % is nowhere near good enough, getting pushed back by Djokovic returns from the first point on. Djokovic is dictating hitting that flat inside out forehand and as a result Nadal can't get any depth on his CC FH's leaving them way too short.

Nadal is also way too conservative on his returns, standing way too far back like he has a habit of doing. He's not replicating the tactics from Montreal which again is handing over the control to Djokovic.

this was at 4 all, before nadal went 0-40 down and hit that fh winner to save BP.

Nadal has two winners in the whole set? Who is he Wozniaki?

2 winners for Nadal in this set. Putrid, yet here we all at 4-4. Nadal is hanging in there somehow.

after nadal won that 3rd set ..

How did Rafa manage to win that set? Amazing

Geeze.. where'd THAT come from?

yeah, what a bunch of nadal haters, liars and morons, right ?

of course was in control of the set, so aggressive with only 2 winners until 4 all , 0-40 down because cc509 said so !
 

Tennisanity

Legend
Indeed, so they carry no real weight, just typical forum banter.
Can you point me to where you acknowledge your statements are opinionated and as such have no objective value? Or do you fail to acknowledge that?

I don't, I was just stating my opinion. I thought it was obvious that other than when someone posts actual stats, all else is opinion and it is pointless to begin every statement with IMO.
 

Tennisanity

Legend
you mean like losing to dodig at Canada masters and Fish in cincy ? :rolleyes:
meanwhile he beat djokovic and Raonic in Canada in 13 ; federer, berdych and isner in cincy 13.

slow HC is debatable ( he won IW in 13, but was aided by delpo being tired ; 11, he reached final of IW and miami & got injured at the AO), but fast HC he was clearly better in 13.

You can't just quote names you have to consider the level the opponent displayed too. Fed was complete crap in 2013. Delpo completely choked his match against Nadal in 13 too. Djoko was horrible in the USO13 final, seemed like he didn't even care to be there.
 

cc0509

Talk Tennis Guru
yeah, right !

here's a list of posts from nadal "haters" in that match thread ...




this was at 4 all, before nadal went 0-40 down and hit that fh winner to save BP.





after nadal won that 3rd set ..





yeah, what a bunch of nadal haters, liars and morons, right ?

of course was in control of the set, so aggressive with only 2 winners until 4 all , 0-40 down because cc509 said so !

Oh please! All those Nadal fans were probably sh*tting their pants because they were afraid Nadal would lose to Djokovic in that USO 2013 final after the way Djokovic owned Nadal in 2011. Fans tend to be irrational by nature. Either they are overconfident/cocky thinking their player will win everything or fears creep in and they become paranoid.

All I know is when "I' was watching that USO 2013 final it appeared that Nadal was in control and the more aggressive player throughout the match contrary to most of Nadal's matches vs Djokovic in 2011 where Djokovic was in firm control. If you can't see the difference, that's not my problem. I can only speak from my own perspective and tell you how I was feeling during that match. After the summer hc season in 2013 all the momentum was with Nadal and for me he was the favorite to win that match.
 

cc0509

Talk Tennis Guru
Everything what I said is backed up by reality. The stats, the posts here during the final. The stats show what I say . That is being objective.

RG 2013 was one occasion where nadal was in control, more aggressive. The stats show that. 61 W from nadal to 54 from djokovic IIRC.
So was USO 10 final , the stats show that again. Like I showed, 49 W to 31 UEs from nadal and 45 W to 47 UEs from djokovic.

again, its your objective to somehow make it look like nadal was oh so aggressive in that final vs djokovic in USO 13....well, he wasn't. 27 W to 46 W is a big difference. The W+Forced errors difference is also more than 10 in djokovic's favour. He was the more aggressive player.

Nadal was aggressive in USO 10, in RG 13, even in canada 13. but not this final.

again, explain how the hell was nadal the more aggressive player with far less winner+forced errors ? how was he in control of the 3rd set when he nearly went down a double break and could've been broken at 4 all ?
this is 90sclay level of denial from you. bringing up my supposed hate for nadal ( I dislike nadal to an extent, but I don't hate him ) is another level :rolleyes:...

yes, nadal was aggressive in general that HC summer. But when djokovic pushed him back in the USO 13 final, he reverted to a passive style of play ( sets 2 and 3 ) , unlike at RG where he grew more aggressive and hit out in the 5th set. That's the reality. Too bad you can't deal with it.

Of course nadal was better on hc than djokovic that summer. Where the hell did I deny that ?

We are never going to agree on this issue. As I said, to my eyes Nadal was in firm control and was the more aggressive player throughout most of that match. I didn't feel that Djokovic was likely to win before the match and I never felt it during the match. The momentum in that match-up shifted back to Nadal in 2013 and then he lost it again in 2014 and so far hasn't been able to get it back. It will be interesting to see what happens in 2017 now that both players are having their issues.
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
Oh please! All those Nadal fans were probably sh*tting their pants because they were afraid Nadal would lose to Djokovic in that USO 2013 final after the way Djokovic owned Nadal in 2011. Fans tend to be irrational by nature. Either they are overconfident/cocky thinking their player will win everything or fears creep in and they become paranoid.

All I know is when "I' was watching that USO 2013 final it appeared that Nadal was in control and the more aggressive player throughout the match contrary to most of Nadal's matches vs Djokovic in 2011 where Djokovic was in firm control. If you can't see the difference, that's not my problem. I can only speak from my own perspective and tell you how I was feeling during that match. After the summer hc season in 2013 all the momentum was with Nadal and for me he was the favorite to win that match.

yeah, you are the only rational, sane fan out there.

everyone else is paranoid or over-confident.
cool story bro.

I showed you the stats as well, but you refuse to acknowledge them as well. Just 2 winners until 4-4, 0-40 in that set from nadal.

6 winners from nadal to 17 from djokovic
17 winners+forced errors from nadal to 26 from djokovic -- what else can you choose as a parameter for a player being aggressive ?


your so called feeling of nadal being in control in the 3rd set is utterly delusional or revisionist history. your pick.

that you think he was more agressive despite the statistics having convincingly shown otherwise is your obstinacy.

This isn't some opinion/subjective matter like whose peak level is higher on grass or fast HC - nadal or djokovic.

Its plain cold reality of what happened in the USO 2013 final.
 
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abmk

Bionic Poster
We are never going to agree on this issue. As I said, to my eyes Nadal was in firm control and was the more aggressive player throughout most of that match. I didn't feel that Djokovic was likely to win before the match and I never felt it during the match. The momentum in that match-up shifted back to Nadal in 2013 and then he lost it again in 2014 and so far hasn't been able to get it back. It will be interesting to see what happens in 2017 now that both players are having their issues.

You don't address any of the points I mentioned and simply disagree. that's not called replying. that's just annoying parroting.

ok, then I think federer was in firm control of RG 2008 final and nadal only won it by luck.
I'm sure you will say nadal dominated the match. But hey , we're never going to agree on the issue/
I don't give a sh*t about stats like that federer won only 4 games in that match.
Like I said, when watching it, I felt like federer was in form control of the match and nadal only won it by luck.
 
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abmk

Bionic Poster
You can't just quote names you have to consider the level the opponent displayed too. Fed was complete crap in 2013. Delpo completely choked his match against Nadal in 13 too. Djoko was horrible in the USO13 final, seemed like he didn't even care to be there.

actually federer started off ok in that cincy match winning the first set. He only played cr*p from near the ending stages of set 2.

djoko played more than decent tennis in montreal 13 -- clearly better than dodig in canada and fish in cincy in 11.
Isner was playing well in cincy 13 as well, having taken out djoko in the QF.

djoko was no doubt better in 2011 USO. 13 was a match of 2 halves for him, he played well in one half ( sets 2 and 3 ) and cr*p in the other half. nadal did well to dig himself out of the 3rd set. But nadal was better in 2013 USO.

del potro in IW ? it wasn't choking. He was worn out by the 3 setters vs djoko and murray in the rounds before. which is why I said its debatable - even though he won IW in 13 and "only" reached the final in 11.
 

Feather

Legend
Rafa played Djokovic thrice in US finals. Each time Djokovic played a tough five setter in the semi final. Each time Rafa had a cake walk draw and easy semi final. All three times Djokovic played long matches in the semi final. I think that Stan Wawrinka took a lot out of Djokovic. Just the same thing that Federer did in 2010 and 2011 to Djokovic.
 

cc0509

Talk Tennis Guru
yeah, you are the only rational, sane fan out there.

everyone else is paranoid or over-confident.
cool story bro.

I showed you the stats as well, but you refuse to acknowledge them as well. Just 2 winners until 4-4, 0-40 in that set from nadal.

6 winners from nadal to 17 from djokovic
17 winners+forced errors from nadal to 26 from djokovic -- what else can you choose as a parameter for a player being aggressive ?


your so called feeling of nadal being in control in the 3rd set is utterly delusional or revisionist history. your pick.

that you think he was more agressive despite the statistics having convincingly shown otherwise is your obstinacy.

This isn't some opinion/subjective matter like whose peak level is higher on grass or fast HC - nadal or djokovic.

Its plain cold reality of what happened in the USO 2013 final.

Who's talking about the third set? I said IMO Nadal was in control and the more aggressive & superior player throughout most of the match. Djokovic looked out of sorts to me throughout most of the match. Before the match, I predicted Nadal would win based on his stellar form during that summer hc swing in 2013. The momentum was with him in that rivalry at the time. I see the stats you are quoting me and although Djokovic had more winners than Nadal (46-27), he had almost three times the number of unforced errors (53-20) so perhaps that's why Nadal appeared to be more aggressive to me. Also, Djokovic was very poor on break points won whereas Nadal was excellent(27% vs 58%.)

As for the plain cold reality, Nadal won the match relatively easily which is indicated by the scoreline of 6-2 3-6 6-4 6-1. That's not a scoreline which tells us that Nadal had much trouble winning the match.
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
Who's talking about the third set? I said IMO Nadal was in control and the more aggressive & superior player throughout most of the match.

umm, what else does this mean ?

To me Nadal looked more aggressive in that entire match except for that one set which he lost. Nadal looked completely in control for most of the match

except for that one set he lost ? well, jeez, he lost the 2nd set. So that means you included the 3rd set in the sets where nadal was supposedly more aggressive/in control.

I convincingly proved that was not the case. djoko was in control in the 2nd and 3rd set. clearly more aggressive in both.
Hence more aggressive/in control for >~50% of the match.

Djokovic looked out of sorts to me throughout most of the match. Before the match, I predicted Nadal would win based on his stellar form during that summer hc swing in 2013. The momentum was with him in that rivalry at the time. I see the stats you are quoting me and although Djokovic had more winners than Nadal (46-27), he had almost three times the number of unforced errors (53-20) so perhaps that's why Nadal appeared to be more aggressive to me. Also, Djokovic was very poor on break points won whereas Nadal was excellent(27% vs 58%.)

As for the plain cold reality, Nadal won the match relatively easily which is indicated by the scoreline of 6-2 3-6 6-4 6-1. That's not a scoreline which tells us that Nadal had much trouble winning the match.

who is talking about what you predicted ? No one. its not relevant.

Like I've said, it only seems relatively easy, because nadal saved those 3 BPs at 4 all in the 3rd set . If he had got broken, djoko would've probably taken that set to make it 2-1.

Also djoko gifted the 1st break in the 3rd set with UEs in that game. the final game was half djokovic errors, half well played by nadal.

djoko collapsed after that 3rd set which he lost despite being the better player/control of it.

how does djokovic hitting more UEs imply that nadal appeared more aggressive ? are you kidding me ?

you could have said nadal was playing cleaner tennis going by that , which is fine, but more aggressive ?
 
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cc0509

Talk Tennis Guru
umm, what else does this mean ?



except for that one set he lost ? well, jeez, he lost the 2nd set. So that means you included the 3rd set in the sets where nadal was supposedly more aggressive/in control.

I convincingly proved that was not the case. djoko was in control in the 2nd and 3rd set. clearly more aggressive in both.
Hence more aggressive/in control for >~50% of the match.



who is talking about what you predicted ? No one. its not relevant.

Like I've said, it only seems relatively easy, because nadal saved those 3 BPs at 4 all in the 3rd set . If he had got broken, djoko would've probably taken that set to make it 2-1.

Also djoko gifted the 1st break in the 3rd set with UEs in that game. the final game was half djokovic errors, half well played by nadal.

djoko collapsed after that 3rd set which he lost despite being the better player/control of it.

how does djokovic hitting more UEs imply that nadal appeared more aggressive ? are you kidding me ?

you could have said nadal was playing cleaner tennis going by that , which is fine, but more aggressive ?

Again the scoreline was 6-2 3-6 6-4 6-1. Despite what you are attempting to claim, that scoreline was a pretty easy thrashing by Nadal. To me Nadal was in control, the superior player and appeared more aggressive throughout the match and it was obvious to me that Djokovic was never winning that match. There are other people in this thread who watched the match and agree with my assessment that Nadal was in control and pummelling the ball with power and precision(see post # 182.)

We disagree about the match and you aren't going to convince me to change my mind and vice versa. Let it go and don't be obstinate for once.
 

RF-18

Talk Tennis Guru
That's the reality. If you can't handle it, too bad for you.

As well as djoko played, fed would've the fav(not by too much) , had he not been sick and if he was in prime form (like the previous tournament he played - YEc 07 or the previous AO - 07)

Sent from my MotoG3 using Tapatalk

dde89d42ebcab9e5a1ecf1b6862eecb3.jpg
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
Again the scoreline was 6-2 3-6 6-4 6-1. Despite what you are attempting to claim, that scoreline was a pretty easy thrashing by Nadal. To me Nadal was in control, the superior player and appeared more aggressive throughout the match and it was obvious to me that Djokovic was never winning that match. There are other people in this thread who watched the match and agree with my assessment that Nadal was in control and pummelling the ball with power and precision(see post # 182.)

We disagree about the match and you aren't going to convince me to change my mind and vice versa. Let it go and don't be obstinate for once.

lol, utter delusions... nadal barely escaped 3rd set. djoko was in control.
easy thrashing ? LOL !

post 182 in this thread ? ok, one post from 3.5 years later - with revisionism , as compared to posts at the actual time, stats of those sets and all clearly proving what I said ...ok guess which one wins.

again, you fail to address the actual point : how on earth does djokovic having more UEs mean nadal seemed more aggressive ? I mean, are you like using some common sense out here ?

djokovic was the aggressor and the superior player in sets 2 and 3. nadal just about escaped in set 3..that's the reality.
the 4th set was easy only because djokovic collapsed after losing set 3.


your so called opinion is like me saying :"federer is control in RG 08 final, I don't give a sh*t that about the stats, that he won only 4 games, nadal got lucky ...federer was in control , that's what I saw" ..

if you accept this above, then I'll leave you to your "opinion"
 
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