How did Wawrinka have Djokovic on his knees between 2014-2019?

Well, you can only play who's in front of you and strive to be in good shape for the longest period of time possible. That's what Djokovic has managed to do better than anyone else and he's being rewarded for it. I don't see how that in any way diminishes his accomplishments, quite the contrary. My advice to people hanging on to this notion that he has no challengers is to let it go, no good can come out of wishing a different reality existed.
Nonetheless there are no players of in-form Wawrinka on the tour currently that Djokovic faced in recent Slams, bar Rafa at RG last year. Your point seemed to be that they it's irrelevant, if I understood correctly. Well, it's not irrelevant for those who want to see good quality competitive tennis matches being played in Slams. Hoping for a quick return of Alcaraz and for Rune to make more progress this season.
 

RF-18

Talk Tennis Guru
20-6 h2h, even cherry picking since 2013, it's 9-4 nole. For sure Wawrinka had 2 good wins vs Djokovic in 2014 and 2015 but people think Djokovic feared Wawrinka? Okey.
 
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Ovie

Rookie
It's not a mystery at all..

Djokovic was well tamed by Fedal at the slams from 08-13 - the strong era, apart from 12 months.

From 14-present it's been full of Twitter gen pretenders, heavily declined Nadal, Murray and geriatric Roger. Stanimal was the only guy really playing fearless tennis against him.

So it's no surprise he was too much for Djok to handle given we know Djok has a very hard time dealing with strong opponents who won't poop their shorts against him...
Lol
I love how the years were arbitrarily chosen, even in the 08-13, he won 8 times against both of these guys so he was
8-10 vs Nadal and Fed combined

How about the tamers in the same period vs the other two guys
Nadal was 10 -3 vs both guys 5-3 vs Nole, 5-0 vs Fed in the 08-13 arbitrarily chosen time frame
Fed was 4-10 (embarrassing)
If anyone was tamed, it was Federer.
 

vex

Legend
Stan the man had this guy begging for mercy between this period :oops:

4-1 H2H in slams and 3 of those matches Djokovic won the first set and lost o_O. When you look at the Next Gen chokers who had Djokovic in trouble from 2020 onwards in various situations and failed to capitalize it always makes you think how Stanimal did it.

And no excuses for 2019 when Djokovic has played through ab tears and hamstring injuries against the Next Gen :mad: Stanimal was mowing his lawn, uninvited!

Even in 2013 he was giving Djokovic fits at AO and USO. Where other players crumble after a heavy defeat, Wawrinka was the total opposite.

I think Wawrinka thoroughly enjoyed playing Djokovic compared to any other player whereas others fear him.
TLDR: No, Stan was always an up and down mess whereas Djokovic was a constant at the top of the game. Stan’s wins came from him being able to Uber-Peak and execute the only game plan that works against peak Djokovic: overwelm him with offense - something only Fed/Rafa were able to do and Stan only able to do like twice. One of Stan’s USO wins over Djoker doesn’t mean anything bc Djoker was trash that slam.
 
Lol
I love how the years were arbitrarily chosen, even in the 08-10, he won 8 times against both of these guys so he was
8-10 vs Nadal and Fed combined

How about the tamers in the same period vs the other two guys
Nadal was 10 -3 vs both guys 5-3 vs Nole, 5-0 vs Fed in the 08-13 arbitrarily chosen time frame
Fed was 4-10 (embarrassing)
If anyone was tamed, it was Federer.
Embarrassing when you omit any and all context of the H2H. :rolleyes:
 

ScentOfDefeat

G.O.A.T.
Nonetheless there are no players of in-form Wawrinka on the tour currently that Djokovic faced in recent Slams, bar Rafa at RG last year. Your point seemed to be that they it's irrelevant, if I understood correctly. Well, it's not irrelevant for those who want to see good quality competitive tennis matches being played in Slams. Hoping for a quick return of Alcaraz and for Rune to make more progress this season.

"Bar Rafa at Roland-Garros last year" or Medvedev at the US Open (you have to mention that one as well) is about the same scarcity Djokovic has had in terms of challengers since he became the player to beat. I don't see how anything has changed in that regard. Losses in Slams are not irrelevant, I agree, but they continue to happen (despite being scarce). What you seem to resent is the fact the guy is resilient and keeps coming back to reinstate his dominance, while others can't do it to the same extent.
 

slipgrip93

Professional
I'd guess Stan could plow those 1hbackhands, and his game seemed that it could be behind it as a weapon when he wanted it to rather than just stay more defensive on the bh side. Also his yonex racquet reportedly wasn't/isn't a lightweight, at ~360g , and 95 sq in. strung at 61lbs mains, 57 lbs crosses, so perhaps "1hbh friendly". (tennisnerd's article on Warinka's racquet)
of course not saying it's the whole picture, just that Stan could use his 1hbh's mastery as an extra versatile tool in his game, perhaps during the periods in those years mentioned when he was able to challenge Djkovic a bit.
 
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"Bar Rafa at Roland-Garros last year" or Medvedev at the US Open (you have to mention that one as well) is about the same scarcity Djokovic has had in terms of challengers since he became the player to beat. I don't see how anything has changed in that regard. Losses in Slams are not irrelevant, I agree, but they continue to happen (despite being scarce). What you seem to resent is the fact the guy is resilient and keeps coming back to reinstate his dominance, while others can't do it to the same extent.
Didn't mention Medvedev because it was pretty clear Djokovic himself faltered mentally in that match. Someone like Wawrinka - and I know I've referenced him enough already but want to stress the point - dind'trely on Djokovic's game falling apart in his wins or playing Novak very close, except for USO 2016. I resent lack of tough competition and matches like yesterday's AO final, for sure. That's why I really want there to be actual challengers for the biggest titles, that are not Djokovic and Nadal.
 
We're talking about slams here, otherwise Novak blows Wawrinka out with the whole h2h stuff too
i've no problem with whatever H2H you're talking about, but when you call Federer's H2H vs Djokofal in 2008-2013 embarrassing, you're omitting a whole lot of context of how those numbers came to be.
 

Ovie

Rookie
i've no problem with whatever H2H you're talking about, but when you call Federer's H2H vs Djokofal in 2008-2013 embarrassing, you're omitting a whole lot of context of how those numbers came to be.
What context would you like that I add? That he lost some close matches? So did the other two against each other, that he won more matches outside slams? We're only considering slams, that, truth is, in the 08-13 time period, he had a losing record in slams vs both Nadal and Novak, he was 0-5 vs Nadal and 4-5 vs Novak, he was the one being tamed. So pls hint me as to what context you're referring to.
 
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Ovie

Rookie
I will also like to remind everyone that slams H2H for Novak and Wawrinka is 4-4 but we like to pretend Stan joined the tour in 2014.
 

ScentOfDefeat

G.O.A.T.
Didn't mention Medvedev because it was pretty clear Djokovic himself faltered mentally in that match. Someone like Wawrinka - and I know I've referenced him enough already but want to stress the point - dind'trely on Djokovic's game falling apart in his wins or playing Novak very close, except for USO 2016. I resent lack of tough competition and matches like yesterday's AO final, for sure. That's why I really want there to be actual challengers for the biggest titles, that are not Djokovic and Nadal.

Well, there's always going to be mismatched or unbalanced Slam finals, no matter which era you're in, it's part of the game.
Even the glory days of Fedal included some pretty uncompetitive matches (Roland-Garros 2008 comes to mind), and this is also true of Borg-McEnroe and Sampras-Agassi, but most people overlook it because of the names and the legend surrounding them.
We can't exactly demand spectacle and competition at all times (and remember, Tsitsipas took Djokovic to 5 sets in a Slam final just a couple of years ago), a sport is not exactly a "service" provided to "clients" (neither is art, although it seems to be going that way).
But I must say I appreciate the game of tennis well beyond the need for drama or spectacle, which is perhaps why I've remained a fan for about 3 decades now.
Sometimes straight-setters can be more interesting than five-setters, it's not an exact science.
 
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-snake-

Hall of Fame
If it's a matchup issue, why was Nole 15-2 pre-2014? Why don't we see similar match-up results in BO3?


Because Stan's beast mode is unsustainable. Djoko playing at his average level is better than 99% of the tour most of the time, Wawrinka had to be dialed in to have a chance. Novak doesn't like being overpowered on his BH side and only some players are capable of doing that to him. That's the reason why Marat, Waws, Zvrv and Tim gave him more headaches than the guys with a stronk FH.
 
What context would you like that I add? That he lost some close matches? So did the other two against each other, that he won more matches outside slams? We're only considering slams, that, truth is, in the 08-13 time period, he had a losing record in slams vs both Nadal and Novak, he was 0-5 vs Nadal and 4-5 vs Novak, he was the one being tamed. So pls hint me as to what context you're referring to.
That from 2011 Federer was playing against Djokovic and Nadal when they were generally in better form than him. Overall, indeed Roger mostly kept it pretty close in his losses, with 2 matches lost while having MPs and another 2 epic battles lost in 5 sets. Federer was, of course, the one to beat the red-hot Djokovic and break the best winning streak of Novak's career.

If you think that was "embarrassing" for Roger, maybe double-check what the word means.
 
Well, there's always going to be mismatched or unbalanced Slam finals, no matter which era you're in, it's part of the game.
Even the glory days of Fedal included some pretty uncompetitive matches (Roland-Garros 2008 comes to mind), and this is also true of Borg-McEnroe and Sampras-Agassi, but most people overlook it because of the names and the legend surrounding them.
We can't exactly demand spectacle and competition at all times (and remember, Tsitsipas took Djokovic to 5 sets in a Slam final just a couple of years ago), a sport is not exactly a "service" provided to "clients" (neither is art, although it seems to be going that way).
But I must say I appreciate the game of tennis well beyond the need for drama or spectacle, which is perhaps why I've remained a fan for about 3 decades now.
Sometimes straight-setters can be more interesting than five-setters, it's not an exact science.
Good for you, but there are plenty of people who watch tennis that would like to see high-quality competitive matches more often than that one time Tsitsipas took Djokovic to 5 sets in 2021. If that's not something you care about much, it's totally fine. For those who care, it's why we want there to be more players with strong Slam potential on the tour.
 

Rafa4LifeEver

G.O.A.T.
Stan the man had this guy begging for mercy between this period :oops:

4-1 H2H in slams and 3 of those matches Djokovic won the first set and lost o_O. When you look at the Next Gen chokers who had Djokovic in trouble from 2020 onwards in various situations and failed to capitalize it always makes you think how Stanimal did it.

And no excuses for 2019 when Djokovic has played through ab tears and hamstring injuries against the Next Gen :mad: Stanimal was mowing his lawn, uninvited!

Even in 2013 he was giving Djokovic fits at AO and USO. Where other players crumble after a heavy defeat, Wawrinka was the total opposite.

I think Wawrinka thoroughly enjoyed playing Djokovic compared to any other player whereas others fear him.
Power hitting & mental toughness.
Both of which are absent in almost all younger players today except for Alcaraz, who again, is made out of glass as it seems.
 

Rafa4LifeEver

G.O.A.T.
Wawrinka could outpower Djokovic from both wings with heavy shots (pace/spin) and dictate point patterns which frustrated Djokovic a lot because he wasn’t used to other players doing it. This usually resulted in Djokovic trying to be hyper-aggressive and making too many errors. In those years Stan was very confident against Djokovic and also more consistent in not missing on long rallies. I do think that Thiem was building up to that level of power and consistency before the wrist injury derailed him.
There is a vast difference between Thiem and Wawrinka when it comes to power generation. Thiem had to move a lot of parts in his body, use a highly mechanical kinetic chain to generate power; aka sustain more wear and tear; whereas Wawrinka's power came from his core brute strength which was more effective and less taxing on body.
 

Ovie

Rookie
Good for you, but there are plenty of people who watch tennis that would like to see high-quality competitive matches more often than that one time Tsitsipas took Djokovic to 5 sets in 2021. If that's not something you care about much, it's totally fine. For those who care, it's why we want there to be more players with strong Slam potential on the tour.
Tsitsipas has managed to take Novak to 5 sets twice, it's more than what Hewitt was able to do against Federer in slam, Hewitt was also bagelled twice in a slam final. Poor.
 

GabeT

G.O.A.T.
20-6 h2h, even cherry picking since 2013, it's 9-4 nole. For sure Wawrinka had 2 good wins vs Djokovic in 2014 and 2015 but people think Djokovic feared Wawrinka? Okey.
As usual there‘s a mix of trolling and analysis in this thread. Trolls are easy to understand and ignore. But the analysis is a bit harder. My sense is that much of fit falls prey to a common fallacy, trying to read too much from limited data.

The reality is that we are basically talking of just a few matches. Wawa deserves all credit for his wins but do people think that Novak should be Superman? Novak has already won 22 slams and is the youngest to do so. If you think that those losses against Wawa reflect badly on Novak you are in effect claiming he should already be at 25 slams. Remember that Novak lost two key opportunities due to COvid, so are we saying his ‘normal’ state should be to have 27 slams at this point? That‘s ridiculous and it’s holding Novak to a standard that we would use with any of the other Big 3.
 

onehandbh

G.O.A.T.
What I find the most amazing about their H2H is that Wawrinka won their last three grand slam meetings, and two of them were in the finals. And Djokovic is unbelievably tough in grand slam finals.
 

Silverbullet96

Hall of Fame
My sense is that much of fit falls prey to a common fallacy, trying to read too much from limited data.

The reality is that we are basically talking of just a few matches.

I mean it's not like they were matches from a 250 event. They were Slam matches/finals, you can see from AO 21 & 23 how badly Djokovic wants to win these events. No one here is saying Stan dominated Djokovic in their H2H, but it's a very unique circumstance that in 2014-2017 for most of the calendar he was not even Top 10 level player but had these big runs in Slams where he played like the Big 3.
The data is limited and cherry picked of course, but even so it's pretty curious.
 

Sputnik Bulgorov

Professional
Tsitsipas has managed to take Novak to 5 sets twice, it's more than what Hewitt was able to do against Federer in slam, Hewitt was also bagelled twice in a slam final. Poor.

Hewitt took out Roger in the 2 best of 5 Davis cup matches. And the massive difference in context you’ve ignored is that Hewitt had to face Roger at his peak while Tsitsipas lost in straights to an injured 36 year old Novak. When Hewitt did get a chance to face an ATG 10 years older, Sampras, he destroyed him 7-6 6-1 6-1.
 

Cortana

Legend
Anyone who has done a sport in a professional way for more than a decade will know this. You‘ll have years where just everything is working. No physical pain or injuries, less stress in personal life and other ideal circumstances. Then there are years where you are more experienced, but suck anyway. Can be frustrating, but it is what it is.

Tennis is no different. Wawrinka had his 5-year stretch where everything was working. Plus he lacked something that almost any player had: fear of Djokovic. He just knew that he could beat him at every event, so he did.
 

jl809

Hall of Fame
Stan had super high rally tolerance, so unlike Mug Gen he could happily sit at the back of the court hitting big groundstrokes for hours without any trouble. The other thing is that by big we mean BIG. He “neutral” rally groundstroke was heavy enough as it was and he could very easily go DTL and inject pace out of nowhere without making errors. Djokovic never had an ATG drop shot or net game to disrupt him, and couldn’t generate nasty angles like Rafa, so it was a nightmare for him
 

jl809

Hall of Fame
I remember at the start of 2017 thinking that Djoker would finish behind Nadal and Federer because he seemed to have problems with more players on tour than just those 2 - Stan on HC and clay, and Murray on grass (sometimes HC under Lendlray), were nasty matchups for him. Whereas apart from Dustin Brown for Nadal (lol), neither of Fedal had any other real nightmare individuals across surfaces.

But then they got old and injured and he outlasted them, so here we are
 

maratha_warrior

Hall of Fame
Djokovic and Wawrinka played at Slams :
1 match in 2012
2 matches in 2013
1 match in 2014
2 matches in 2015
1 matching in 2016
0 matches - 2017
0 matches - 2018
1 match in 2019

But lets include 2019 to make 2014-19 a separate era . :-D
 
Under Magnus Norman, Stan developed tailor made game to trouble Novak's counter-punching style of tennis (I always thought this project originated in Fed camp). Imho, it was quite a mistake from Novak and his team to keep playing counter-punching style with not much variety against him in slams. Actually, it's quite baffling, as Novak was still beating Wawrinka with ease in masters level tournaments with much more proactive game approach.
 

GabeT

G.O.A.T.
I mean it's not like they were matches from a 250 event. They were Slam matches/finals, you can see from AO 21 & 23 how badly Djokovic wants to win these events. No one here is saying Stan dominated Djokovic in their H2H, but it's a very unique circumstance that in 2014-2017 for most of the calendar he was not even Top 10 level player but had these big runs in Slams where he played like the Big 3.
The data is limited and cherry picked of course, but even so it's pretty curious.

I don’t doubt Novak wanted to win those matches. And kudos to Stan for winning. I’m just saying that Novak was bound to lose matches like that at some point unless we think he should be winning it all.
 

Ovie

Rookie
That from 2011 Federer was playing against Djokovic and Nadal when they were generally in better form than him. Overall, indeed Roger mostly kept it pretty close in his losses, with 2 matches lost while having MPs and another 2 epic battles lost in 5 sets. Federer was, of course, the one to beat the red-hot Djokovic and break the best winning streak of Novak's career.

If you think that was "embarrassing" for Roger, maybe double-check what the word means.
He lost 3 slam matches in straight sets Vs Novak in the 08-13 period, lost all slam matches Vs Nadal, yea he did stop Novak 43 matches unbeaten run, after he's lost 3 times in all tournaments that year before that RG, could he really allow it be 4 in a row?
 
He lost 3 slam matches in straight sets Vs Novak in the 08-13 period, lost all slam matches Vs Nadal, yea he did stop Novak 43 matches unbeaten run, after he's lost 3 times in all tournaments that year before that RG, could he really allow it be 4 in a row?
Okay, and what's embarrassing about it?
 

Silverbullet96

Hall of Fame
I don’t doubt Novak wanted to win those matches. And kudos to Stan for winning. I’m just saying that Novak was bound to lose matches like that at some point unless we think he should be winning it all.

He's bound to lose matches, but the way it happened with Stan is quite unique. Stan challenged him heavily and consistently in Slams from 2013-2016 better than any other player could, won against him 3 times in the biggest of matches fair and square (if we don't count US Open 2019 because of injury), while playing less than Top 10 level for most of the season. It's not the same as Nadal losing in one-offs to Rosol, Darcis, Brown etc.
 

mattennis

Hall of Fame
Peak Wawrinka could sustain a level of aggression and consistency that no one player from the new generations can achieve.

To derail him you had to have a lot of variety, angles, different heights of shot, spins, drop shots, net game...

Novak chose to go full-head-on baseline battle against him, hoping that his consistency and defense would be enough, but against peak Wawrinka that was very dangerous.

Only Thiem from the newer generations was getting there (in terms of aggression and consistency) but he fell off due to injuries, mental exhaustion, or whatever it was.
 

tex123

Hall of Fame
Magnus Norman had something to do with his success. A proper taskmaster.

Tsitsipas or Shapovalov should've hired him.
 

duaneeo

Legend
I don’t doubt Novak wanted to win those matches. And kudos to Stan for winning. I’m just saying that Novak was bound to lose matches like that at some point unless we think he should be winning it all.

Nah. A peak/prime ATG may suffer an occasional loss to a less-superior/non-ATG contemporary at a slam. But after losing to Stan at 2014 AO, Nole lost to him again in the final of 2015 RG (nullifying his celebrated win over Nadal), and lost to him still again in the final of 2016 USO. Slam finals are typically where the ATG gains the advantage.


The reality is that we are basically talking of just a few matches.

Three slam titles/the 2015 CYGS are "just a few matches"? I'm not even including the possible 2019 USO title had he beaten Stan.

Those "few matches" were huge losses, and ATG Nole has two non-ATGs who have multiple slam final wins him. Not very GOATlike.
 

The Blond Blur

G.O.A.T.
Djokovic and Wawrinka played at Slams :
1 match in 2012
2 matches in 2013
1 match in 2014
2 matches in 2015
1 matching in 2016
0 matches - 2017
0 matches - 2018
1 match in 2019

But lets include 2019 to make 2014-19 a separate era . :-D
I mean you guys do the exact same thing in regards to the Nadovic matchup on HC.
 

GabeT

G.O.A.T.
Nah. A peak/prime ATG may suffer an occasional loss to a less-superior/non-ATG contemporary at a slam. But after losing to Stan at 2014 AO, Nole lost to him again in the final of 2015 RG (nullifying his celebrated win over Nadal), and lost to him still again in the final of 2016 USO. Slam finals are typically where the ATG gains the advantage.




Three slam titles/the 2015 CYGS are "just a few matches"? I'm not even including the possible 2019 USO title had he beaten Stan.

Those "few matches" were huge losses, and ATG Nole has two non-ATGs who have multiple slam final wins him. Not very GOATlike.
Lol, yeah, Novak should be at 30 slams! :X3:
 

Milanez82

Hall of Fame
Stan was amazing in his wins but people forget Djokovic broke in the 5th set of AO14 at 2-2 after a crazy 56 shot rally or something then played poor with bunch of UEs following game to bring back Stan into it and then at 7-8 30-30 missed an easy volley to hand the match away, far from narrative that Stan blew him off the court.

In RG final his legs were affected by playing 3rd straight day(the usual awful scheduling for SF didn't provide enough time to finish the match on friday) and his serve dipped as the match went on.

In any case a better player on the day won, just like in AO15 Djokovic won.
 

Ja_rapp

New User
It's simple. When Wawrinka was in Stanimal mode he was a bad match up for djokovic. Fed took time away from him and didn't give him any rhythym while Nadal used heavy topspin to keep the ball out of his strikezone. Djokovic though played right into his strengths giving him rhythm and the ball into his stroke zone. Plus Wawrinka could hit big from both wings with consistency
 

RunDatGame

Semi-Pro
One of the most excited match-ups in the last decade. Some memorable matches also that would hardly repeat... pure magic.
 
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