How did you increase serve speed from 90mph to 110mph?

jiangrm

jiangrm

Rookie
Background:
I'm 190lb, 6', fit. Played badminton for 30+ years, turned to tennis during COVID. Now tennis is my #1 sport. Never been coached/trained.
I play men's doubles most of the time so serves are crucial. I found the similarity between the serve motion and smash in badminton, worked quite hard on it, and got good result. Radar gun says my 1st serve averages 90mph and peaks at 100mph. In real games I can usually ace 4.0 players and surprise 4.5 players, if the ball clears the net and hits the box.
I've only met one guy who serves consistenly around 110mph. He is a title winner of 4.5 group in a local tournament and believed he has the best serve among 5.0 players. Only thing is he used to play competitvely at youth age, so serveing fast after 10+ years pause is merely picking up muscle memory to him, not much I can learn.

Objective:
I wanted to increase my 1st serve to 110mph by learning the insights from those who have been through this process (from 90mph to 110mph or higher) in this forum (higher chance than I can meet in reality).

Questions:
What's the aha moment like when it comes to your serve speed increase?
How long (approx.) did it take for you to improve from 90mph to 110mph?
At what age did that process happen, teens, 20s, 30s, 40s or older?
Were you being coached when that happened?
Did you clock the speed with radar or estimated (by a coach or opponents in tournaments)?
What's your gender and body type when achieved 110mph?
Did you use gym for strength training? ( I once thought about it but doubted when I saw two slim boy ITF youth players serving incredibly fast)
What's the weight and balance of your racket?

Not in scope:
I guess some would ask for a video but I'm not looking for specific advice on motions. I prefer dealing with problems with a holistic approach.
Doubles strategy, serve success rate, placement, consistency, winnig games etc. are not considered. Focus on the numbers. Keep it simple.
Radar gun calibration will be done the other day. Will update if discrepancy is found.
 
jiangrm said:
I guess some would ask for a video but I'm not looking for specific advice on motions. I prefer dealing with problems with a holistic approach.
Click to expand...
If you are 6’ fit healthy male with badminton background, there’s no reason you cannot hit over 100 mph flat serves with proper technique. At least cracking it every now and then, even if not making 60+ % in real match.

So the most likely reason you are not there is technical shortcomings. Some timing issues, lack of leg and torso involvement, drop leak — are prime suspects.

So refusing the video-analysis opportunity is worst thing you can do if actually want to achieve your goal. With serve technique is first and most important part, and you can only be gauged from the outside (qualified coach best, video — second best).

As a separate advice, go with TPAtennis from YouTube — watch his serve videos, do his drills, patiently practice them for several months. His stuff is easily best to actually “figure it out”, if you don’t want to go straight with video-deconstruction and direct technique practice.
 
I have nothing useful to add, just had a good chuckle that these threads showed up next to each other.

Untitled.jpg
 
jiangrm said:
Background:
I'm 190lb, 6', fit. Played badminton for 30+ years, turned to tennis during COVID. Now tennis is my #1 sport. Never been coached/trained.
I play men's doubles most of the time so serves are crucial. I found the similarity between the serve motion and smash in badminton, worked quite hard on it, and got good result. Radar gun says my 1st serve averages 90mph and peaks at 100mph. In real games I can usually ace 4.0 players and surprise 4.5 players, if the ball clears the net and hits the box.
I've only met one guy who serves consistenly around 110mph. He is a title winner of 4.5 group in a local tournament and believed he has the best serve among 5.0 players. Only thing is he used to play competitvely at youth age, so serveing fast after 10+ years pause is merely picking up muscle memory to him, not much I can learn.

Objective:
I wanted to increase my 1st serve to 110mph by learning the insights from those who have been through this process (from 90mph to 110mph or higher) in this forum (higher chance than I can meet in reality).

Questions:
What's the aha moment like when it comes to your serve speed increase?
How long (approx.) did it take for you to improve from 90mph to 110mph?
At what age did that process happen, teens, 20s, 30s, 40s or older?
Were you being coached when that happened?
Did you clock the speed with radar or estimated (by a coach or opponents in tournaments)?
What's your gender and body type when achieved 110mph?
Did you use gym for strength training? ( I once thought about it but doubted when I saw two slim boy ITF youth players serving incredibly fast)
What's the weight and balance of your racket?

Not in scope:
I guess some would ask for a video but I'm not looking for specific advice on motions. I prefer dealing with problems with a holistic approach.
Doubles strategy, serve success rate, placement, consistency, winnig games etc. are not considered. Focus on the numbers. Keep it simple.
Radar gun calibration will be done the other day. Will update if discrepancy is found.
Click to expand...
Without video, it is impossible to give advice or suggestions on what adjustments and changes you could try.

Sometimes we may be doing something we are not aware of or we may think we are doing something a certain way but are not. Video is objective.
 
jiangrm said:
I guess some would ask for a video but I'm not looking for specific advice on motions.
Click to expand...
Then I'm not sure how you hope to get the help required tbh. If something is blocking you from progressing further, there is *something* that is going to be blocking you.
It can be motion related (= most likely), it can be equipment related, it can be overall fitness,.... there's a whole range of things that might be going on. It might be a combination of all of the above.

From my own experience (which isn't necessarily useful for you, for reasons stated above):
- I changed my toss a bit more to the right (over right shoulder, making more of the "power triangle" and less stress on my shoulder also) and also a bit more in front (allows me to put more "body" into it- you have less "strength" the further back you go)

- I cheated and added 5gr to 2 and 10 :-D :-D
 
Dragy said:
If you are 6’ fit healthy male with badminton background, there’s no reason you cannot hit over 100 mph flat serves with proper technique. At least cracking it every now and then, even if not making 60+ % in real match.

So the most likely reason you are not there is technical shortcomings. Some timing issues, lack of leg and torso involvement, drop leak — are prime suspects.

So refusing the video-analysis opportunity is worst thing you can do if actually want to achieve your goal. With serve technique is first and most important part, and you can only be gauged from the outside (qualified coach best, video — second best).

As a separate advice, go with TPAtennis from YouTube — watch his serve videos, do his drills, patiently practice them for several months. His stuff is easily best to actually “figure it out”, if you don’t want to go straight with video-deconstruction and direct technique practice.
Click to expand...
I believe my T serve is 100mph, but it requires a bit of energy from my legs/core and the timing of the toss + hitting arm contact.
It's more natural to hit a slice deuce side anyway.
I'm using softer poly mains so it helps too.

I'm sure I cannot hit one 2nd set in a real match.
Cheers.
 
I don't think I have averaged 100 mph even when much younger and I played 4.5 and a little 5.0 level but I will say this. I attended a pro tournament and watched ATP player Donald Young play Ivo Karlovic. Ivo Karlovic was frequently serving over 130 mph. I don't think Young served a single serve over 110 mph. In fact, most of his 1st serves were around 100 mph and several were slices around 95 mph. It was late in Young's career and his serve speed had dropped a little. Even serving in the 90-100 mph range, Young's serve was far better than what you see at local 4.5 USTA matches. If you can average 90-95 mph, get 60+% in the box and place them left, right and middle; you have all you need to win at 4.5 level or even 5.0 level. I think you would be much better served (pun intended) to spend your time learning to hit top/slice and kick serves and place them where you want them versus chasing a 110 mph serve. If you insist on chasing speed, my two tips without seeing your serve are 1. toss the ball farther into the court and 2. find a coach who is knowledgeable about the serve and take a series of lessons. My experience is it is difficult to find a coach who is really good at teaching serve mechanics. I've taken lessons from pros who were good amateur and pro players and I get the feeling they don't know much more about the serve than I do.
 
TennisCJC said:
I don't think I have averaged 100 mph even when much younger and I played 4.5 and a little 5.0 level but I will say this. I attended a pro tournament and watched ATP player Donald Young play Ivo Karlovic. Ivo Karlovic was frequently serving over 130 mph. I don't think Young served a single serve over 110 mph. In fact, most of his 1st serves were around 100 mph and several were slices around 95 mph. It was late in Young's career and his serve speed had dropped a little. Even serving in the 90-100 mph range, Young's serve was far better than what you see at local 4.5 USTA matches. If you can average 90-95 mph, get 60+% in the box and place them left, right and middle; you have all you need to win at 4.5 level or even 5.0 level. I think you would be much better served (pun intended) to spend your time learning to hit top/slice and kick serves and place them where you want them versus chasing a 110 mph serve. If you insist on chasing speed, my two tips without seeing your serve are 1. toss the ball farther into the court and 2. find a coach who is knowledgeable about the serve and take a series of lessons. My experience is it is difficult to find a coach who is really good at teaching serve mechanics. I've taken lessons from pros who were good amateur and pro players and I get the feeling they don't know much more about the serve than I do.
Click to expand...
Donald Young has spin all on his first serves from what I can remember. He's not that tall, so it's not surprising.
 
ProStaffFanatic said:
Then I'm not sure how you hope to get the help required tbh. If something is blocking you from progressing further, there is *something* that is going to be blocking you.
It can be motion related (= most likely), it can be equipment related, it can be overall fitness,.... there's a whole range of things that might be going on. It might be a combination of all of the above.

From my own experience (which isn't necessarily useful for you, for reasons stated above):
- I changed my toss a bit more to the right (over right shoulder, making more of the "power triangle" and less stress on my shoulder also) and also a bit more in front (allows me to put more "body" into it- you have less "strength" the further back you go)

- I cheated and added 5gr to 2 and 10 :-D :-D
Click to expand...
Equipment is a big part. I serve much faster with pure drive than weighted gravity pro.

Trying to raise serve speed without letting coaches seeing the serve is like asking for medicine without seeing the doctor. So many things could go wrong.
 
ProStaffFanatic said:
Then I'm not sure how you hope to get the help required tbh. If something is blocking you from progressing further, there is *something* that is going to be blocking you.
It can be motion related (= most likely), it can be equipment related, it can be overall fitness,.... there's a whole range of things that might be going on. It might be a combination of all of the above.

From my own experience (which isn't necessarily useful for you, for reasons stated above):
- I changed my toss a bit more to the right (over right shoulder, making more of the "power triangle" and less stress on my shoulder also) and also a bit more in front (allows me to put more "body" into it- you have less "strength" the further back you go)

- I cheated and added 5gr to 2 and 10 :-D :-D
Click to expand...
That's exactly what I'm looking for: Your experience. Thanks!
 
onehandbh said:
Without video, it is impossible to give advice or suggestions on what adjustments and changes you could try.

Sometimes we may be doing something we are not aware of or we may think we are doing something a certain way but are not. Video is objective.
Click to expand...
I'm trying to understand how you realized it, if you have been through the process.

My question is more about the methodology or discovery process, rather than the technique.
 
TennisCJC said:
I don't think I have averaged 100 mph even when much younger and I played 4.5 and a little 5.0 level but I will say this. I attended a pro tournament and watched ATP player Donald Young play Ivo Karlovic. Ivo Karlovic was frequently serving over 130 mph. I don't think Young served a single serve over 110 mph. In fact, most of his 1st serves were around 100 mph and several were slices around 95 mph. It was late in Young's career and his serve speed had dropped a little. Even serving in the 90-100 mph range, Young's serve was far better than what you see at local 4.5 USTA matches. If you can average 90-95 mph, get 60+% in the box and place them left, right and middle; you have all you need to win at 4.5 level or even 5.0 level. I think you would be much better served (pun intended) to spend your time learning to hit top/slice and kick serves and place them where you want them versus chasing a 110 mph serve. If you insist on chasing speed, my two tips without seeing your serve are 1. toss the ball farther into the court and 2. find a coach who is knowledgeable about the serve and take a series of lessons. My experience is it is difficult to find a coach who is really good at teaching serve mechanics. I've taken lessons from pros who were good amateur and pro players and I get the feeling they don't know much more about the serve than I do.
Click to expand...

Thanks for your experience. Yes, I focus on consistency, variations and placement in my practices. Chasing the speed is a personal challenge.

I have to agree with you on the difficulty to find a good serve coach. My hypothosis is majority of pros and coaches learned tennis since childhood and built the muscle memory over decades. Unlike knowledge, muscle memory is not transferrable.
 
There’s not too much discovery past understanding the technique. You need to use continental grip, you need to apply proper throwing motion to accelerate the racquet. You need to utilize whole body and drive with your legs off the ground. You need to align the swing and the body launch efficiently — and have good toss to proper location to achieve that.

All break-through’s are results of achieving good proficiency with the above via practice. Most struggles are linked to lack of the technique or misbeliefs regarding what you are actually doing. Clean technique comes first, but also shall be polished first years, as we see many pro players serving better as they age (if not injured, hopefully).

Unguided discovery drives people to weird places, too often :rolleyes: while in sports there’re usually well-established guidelines to follow up to very high level.
 
I used to serve big. Multiple aha moments as a young guy led to big gains in velocity.

1. The faster your body center of mass is moving forward at the moment of contact, the faster your serve. When you jump to hit the ball, the further you land inside the court, the faster the serve. And jumping up and in has other benefits. Making contact higher off the ground and with fuller vertical extension will increase velocity and enlarge angle into the box. And making contact further inside court will shorten distance to target, taking time away from opponent.

2. To enhance power, lean into the court with front hip as you sag into the trophy position, to get center of mass forward in front of feet, then explode upward and forward.

3. Instead of letting gravity drop your racquet, actively yank your racquet downward to use your shoulder as a spring and get racquet lower, giving you more distance to accelerate upward toward contact.

4. Experiment with adding weight to racquet to optimize for serving.
 
travlerajm said:
I used to serve big. Multiple aha moments as a young guy led to big gains in velocity.

1. The faster your body center of mass is moving forward at the moment of contact, the faster your serve. When you jump to hit the ball, the further you land inside the court, the faster the serve. And jumping up and in has other benefits. Making contact higher off the ground and with fuller vertical extension will increase velocity and enlarge angle into the box. And making contact further inside court will shorten distance to target, taking time away from opponent.

2. To enhance power, lean into the court with front hip as you sag into the trophy position, to get center of mass forward in front of feet, then explode upward and forward.

3. Instead of letting gravity drop your racquet, actively yank your racquet downward to use your shoulder as a spring and get racquet lower, giving you more distance to accelerate upward toward contact.

4. Experiment with adding weight to racquet to optimize for serving.
Click to expand...

Case in point, if you contact more into the court your hand/arm is further through the pronation so the racket face is actually flat to the service box at contact. If you want to easily add 5-10mph, learn this true flat or even reverse serve technique (which no Pros regularly use because of the low consistency). You need to angle your body with the direction of the ball, rather than at an angle to the court that it usually is. Raducanu's shot here is actually a slightly over pronated 'reverse' serve.


Otherwise, if you want a consistent controllable first serve that averages 100-110mph, you just need to be very good to start with and practice a lot. Very few 4.0s can achieve an average of 110mph with control, although they may hit it a few times erratically. Most WTA Pros don't achieve 110mph average, and they're playing 3-5hrs a day for 10+ years.
 
I think, as others have mentioned, posting a video of you serve would be most helpful.

Basic keys for me are:
1) Load the legs then unload from ground up.
2) Really focus on getting a strong coil/external shoulder rotation on the racquet drop and follow that up with explosive 'shoulder-over-shoulder' and internal shoulder rotation into the ball.
3) Proper pronation through the shot. Just recently got this working properly on my deuce serve and this added an almost instant 10mph to my serve.
 
jiangrm said:
Thanks for your experience. Yes, I focus on consistency, variations and placement in my practices. Chasing the speed is a personal challenge.

I have to agree with you on the difficulty to find a good serve coach. My hypothosis is majority of pros and coaches learned tennis since childhood and built the muscle memory over decades. Unlike knowledge, muscle memory is not transferrable.
Click to expand...
YouTube coach Ryan at 2 Minute Tennis has a video lesson feature and he's a decent coach. You can send him a few videos of your serve and he return an analysis with tips to improve your serve. He returns slo-mo showing what you are doing wrong and tips to improve it. I think this might be worth looking into if you want to improve your serve.
 
I can no longer serve around 110mph at will, but I can go and hit around 100mph almost any day without too much effort. Technique is key and will give the most returns. Trying to force speed with the arm tends to increase injury risk and slow down the max velocity. The days I've hit serves in at over 120mph, I've been very relaxed. Those are days I'm feeling fully recovered and my nervous system is firing at high speed. The big serves are a result of excellent toss location, aggressive leg drive, and timing so that the energy is going into high racquet head speed at contact due to internal shoulder rotation.

I'm a fan of some of the tips from this Raonic video, especially the insights about using video to confirm that your body is basically in a forward leaning line at ball contact (as seen from the side). and noticing that your hitting shoulder hasn't passed your lead shoulder at contact (avoiding over-rotation allows more energy to be transferred to racquet head speed).

A third thing to look for from video taken from behind the server is that the racquet head is to the left of the hand at contact (for a right-hand serve). If you reach up too high with the racquet, you can lose much of the benefit of internal shoulder rotation. By maintaining an angle between the arm and the racquet, internal shoulder rotation is better translated into racquet head speed at contact.

I used to measure serve speed during practice with a radar gun, but haven't used it in a while. I've never measured over 120mph in practice, but have estimated my biggest serves have been in that range during matches (when I was younger) based on how quickly they were hitting the back fence. I've always thought if I had more natural shoulder mobility, I would have been able to consistently hit big flat serves in the 120mph range when I was young, but who knows. My shoulder flexibility has always been rather limited.
 
WildVolley said:
I can no longer serve around 110mph at will, but I can go and hit around 100mph almost any day without too much effort. Technique is key and will give the most returns. Trying to force speed with the arm tends to increase injury risk and slow down the max velocity. The days I've hit serves in at over 120mph, I've been very relaxed. Those are days I'm feeling fully recovered and my nervous system is firing at high speed. The big serves are a result of excellent toss location, aggressive leg drive, and timing so that the energy is going into high racquet head speed at contact due to internal shoulder rotation.

I'm a fan of some of the tips from this Raonic video, especially the insights about using video to confirm that your body is basically in a forward leaning line at ball contact (as seen from the side). and noticing that your hitting shoulder hasn't passed your lead shoulder at contact (avoiding over-rotation allows more energy to be transferred to racquet head speed).

A third thing to look for from video taken from behind the server is that the racquet head is to the left of the hand at contact (for a right-hand serve). If you reach up too high with the racquet, you can lose much of the benefit of internal shoulder rotation. By maintaining an angle between the arm and the racquet, internal shoulder rotation is better translated into racquet head speed at contact.

I used to measure serve speed during practice with a radar gun, but haven't used it in a while. I've never measured over 120mph in practice, but have estimated my biggest serves have been in that range during matches (when I was younger) based on how quickly they were hitting the back fence. I've always thought if I had more natural shoulder mobility, I would have been able to consistently hit big flat serves in the 120mph range when I was young, but who knows. My shoulder flexibility has always been rather limited.
Click to expand...

This is really well said, what a great high level overview and summary. I didn't realize the bit about the raquet head ideally being a bit to the left of the hand at contact to maximize the effect from ISR/pronation until it was pointed out to me on one of my serve videos. Good stuff - thanks.
 
tennistime3030 said:
This is really well said, what a great high level overview and summary. I didn't realize the bit about the raquet head ideally being a bit to the left of the hand at contact to maximize the effect from ISR/pronation until it was pointed out to me on one of my serve videos. Good stuff - thanks.
Click to expand...
Yeah, this was something I discovered on video a long time ago. I wondered why my fastest serves were hit at a lower ball contact height than my other serves. Slow motion video showed that it was due to the angle between the arm and racquet (my arm was still basically straight at contact). Now knowing about ISR, it makes obvious sense.

A few other tips. I'm a big believer in the rule of thumb that your hitting elbow should basically be in line with shoulders during the racquet take-back and drop. Let that elbow drop too low and you lose easy power. Let the elbow get too high and you risk shoulder impingement and injury. You can use video from the side to confirm that you're hitting proper angles.

Also, maintaining shoulder health is crucial to increasing serve speed. I believe that hanging from a bar after serving and doing the Throwers 10 exercises can help you serve more while protecting shoulder health. Always warm up before doing serve practice at full speed. It is important to try hitting big serves in practice, but monitor your serve count and don't try to hit too many serves in a row. I think it is best to warm-up and try big serves while you're fresh, then take time practicing some other aspect of tennis, and then perhaps end a session with serve practice more focused on form or spin serves.
 
WildVolley said:
...
A few other tips. I'm a big believer in the rule of thumb that your hitting elbow should basically be in line with shoulders during the racquet take-back and drop. Let that elbow drop too low and you lose easy power. Let the elbow get too high and you risk shoulder impingement and injury. You can use video from the side to confirm that you're hitting proper angles.

Also, maintaining shoulder health is crucial to increasing serve speed. I believe that hanging from a bar after serving and doing the Throwers 10 exercises can help you serve more while protecting shoulder health. Always warm up before doing serve practice at full speed. It is important to try hitting big serves in practice, but monitor your serve count and don't try to hit too many serves in a row. I think it is best to warm-up and try big serves while you're fresh, then take time practicing some other aspect of tennis, and then perhaps end a session with serve practice more focused on form or spin serves.
Click to expand...

I agree - both these items are critical, for me the trophy is very similar to when I have a baseball cocked and ready to throw from centerfield, can definitely notice how changes in the elbow positioning affect throwing velocity.

I've noticed a significant boost in a number of tennis skills after getting back into weight training a year ago, not only is it great for general health but it's really good for the tennis game - and keeping the shoulder/back happy. Good stuff!
 
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jiangrm said:
I'm trying to understand how you realized it, if you have been through the process.

My question is more about the methodology or discovery process, rather than the technique.
Click to expand...
I think the limiting factor (for reaching X mph) for many adults is that they don't have a good throwing motion. Perhaps they never learned to throw a ball well as a kid. Playing football and baseball and just throwing all kinds of things like rocks when I was as young as 5 years old definitely helped me I think. (initally with a smaller football in the playground).

Can you easily throw a tennis ball from the baseline to the opposite back fence? Over the fence? From back fence to over the opposite back fence? From your knees? Someone suggested this exercise and I tried it a couple years ago.

 
WildVolley said:
A few other tips. I'm a big believer in the rule of thumb that your hitting elbow should basically be in line with shoulders during the racquet take-back and drop. Let that elbow drop too low and you lose easy power. Let the elbow get too high and you risk shoulder impingement and injury. You can use video from the side to confirm that you're hitting proper angles.
Click to expand...
I know a few people who injured thier shoulders after years of serving with a high elbow and trying to apply high force/arming their serves to hit it harder.

They believed in maximizing the contact point by reaching higher. They also had a poor kinetic chain and very little -- if any -- shoulder over shoulder in their motion. (left shoulder above right shoulder at trophy -> left shoulder down and right (hitting shoulder) up at contact)
 
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Grafil Injection said:
Yes, all strokes in badminton are with a Continental grip. There's no time or need for grip changes when each stroke is effectively 'flat'.
Click to expand...
@SunkTheBirdie @jiangrm

This is FALSE. Elite badminton players typically employ a multitude of grip changes— more grip changes than tennis. And so did I back when I was competing. I normally used 4-5 grip changes when playing — with short grip (net play) and long grip (backcourt play) versions of many of those. Even high level intermediate players typically use, at least, 2 or 3 grip variations. Players who use only one grip have to seriously compromise on their stroke mechanics. They usually leave a lot on the table.

My smashing grip was usually very close to a standard badminton Fh (neutral) grip — somewhat similar to the Aussie (semi-Conti) tennis grip… for many players, the basic Fh grip could be close to either a tennis Conti grip or an EFh grip. It is not easy to compare Badminton and Tennis grips since elite baddie players hold the grip more in the fingers whereas tennis player have it more across the palm of the hand.

Renowned international badminton coach, Lee Jae Bok, advocated, a slightly different smashing grip — it was something between a panhandle grip and a basic Fh grip.

The most common grips used for badminton are: Fh (shakehand) grip, Panhandle grip, Thumb grip & Bevel grip. Here’s a very decent grip primer for badminton:

Grips | Badminton Bible

Grips are how you hold the racket. You need to learn about these early on, as we'll refer to them all the time when learning shots.
www.badmintonbible.com

Learning the basic grips | Badminton Bible

You need to know a few different grips, because we'll use these names when you're learning a shot. Remember that these grips are **only a starting point.**
www.badmintonbible.com
 
SystemicAnomaly said:
@SunkTheBirdie @jiangrm

This is FALSE. Elite badminton players typically employ a multitude of grip changes— more grip changes than tennis. And so did I back when I was competing. I normally used 4-5 grip changes when playing — with short grip (net play) and long grip (backcourt play) versions of many of those. Even high level intermediate players typically use, at least, 2 or 3 grip variations. Players who use only one grip have to seriously compromise on their stroke mechanics. They usually leave a lot on the table.

My smashing grip was usually very close to a standard badminton Fh (neutral) grip — somewhat similar to the Aussie (semi-Conti) tennis grip… for many players, the basic Fh grip could be close to either a tennis Conti grip or an EFh grip. It is not easy to compare Badminton and Tennis grips since elite baddie players hold the grip more in the fingers whereas tennis player have it more across the palm of the hand.

Renowned international badminton coach, Lee Jae Bok, advocated, a slightly different smashing grip — it was something between a panhandle grip and a basic Fh grip.

The most common grips used for badminton are: Fh (shakehand) grip, Panhandle grip, Thumb grip & Bevel grip. Here’s a very decent grip primer for badminton:

Grips | Badminton Bible

Grips are how you hold the racket. You need to learn about these early on, as we'll refer to them all the time when learning shots.
www.badmintonbible.com

Learning the basic grips | Badminton Bible

You need to know a few different grips, because we'll use these names when you're learning a shot. Remember that these grips are **only a starting point.**
www.badmintonbible.com
Click to expand...

I think the key term here is Elite. Most amateurs don't change grips from my limited experience anyway, and no coach has ever even mentioned variation.
 
jiangrm said:
Background:
I'm 190lb, 6', fit. Played badminton for 30+ years, turned to tennis during COVID. Now tennis is my #1 sport. Never been coached/trained.
I play men's doubles most of the time so serves are crucial. I found the similarity between the serve motion and smash in badminton, worked quite hard on it, and got good result. Radar gun says my 1st serve averages 90mph and peaks at 100mph. In real games I can usually ace 4.0 players and surprise 4.5 players, if the ball clears the net and hits the box.
I've only met one guy who serves consistenly around 110mph. He is a title winner of 4.5 group in a local tournament and believed he has the best serve among 5.0 players. Only thing is he used to play competitvely at youth age, so serveing fast after 10+ years pause is merely picking up muscle memory to him, not much I can learn.

Objective:
I wanted to increase my 1st serve to 110mph by learning the insights from those who have been through this process (from 90mph to 110mph or higher) in this forum (higher chance than I can meet in reality).

Questions:
What's the aha moment like when it comes to your serve speed increase?
How long (approx.) did it take for you to improve from 90mph to 110mph?
At what age did that process happen, teens, 20s, 30s, 40s or older?
Were you being coached when that happened?
Did you clock the speed with radar or estimated (by a coach or opponents in tournaments)?
What's your gender and body type when achieved 110mph?
Did you use gym for strength training? ( I once thought about it but doubted when I saw two slim boy ITF youth players serving incredibly fast)
What's the weight and balance of your racket?

Not in scope:
I guess some would ask for a video but I'm not looking for specific advice on motions. I prefer dealing with problems with a holistic approach.
Doubles strategy, serve success rate, placement, consistency, winnig games etc. are not considered. Focus on the numbers. Keep it simple.
Radar gun calibration will be done the other day. Will update if discrepancy is found.
Click to expand...
aged 50+ or 60+ could be a factor or a limitation
 
SystemicAnomaly said:
@SunkTheBirdie @jiangrm

This is FALSE. Elite badminton players typically employ a multitude of grip changes— more grip changes than tennis. And so did I back when I was competing. I normally used 4-5 grip changes when playing — with short grip (net play) and long grip (backcourt play) versions of many of those. Even high level intermediate players typically use, at least, 2 or 3 grip variations. Players who use only one grip have to seriously compromise on their stroke mechanics. They usually leave a lot on the table.

My smashing grip was usually very close to a standard badminton Fh (neutral) grip — somewhat similar to the Aussie (semi-Conti) tennis grip… for many players, the basic Fh grip could be close to either a tennis Conti grip or an EFh grip. It is not easy to compare Badminton and Tennis grips since elite baddie players hold the grip more in the fingers whereas tennis player have it more across the palm of the hand.

Renowned international badminton coach, Lee Jae Bok, advocated, a slightly different smashing grip — it was something between a panhandle grip and a basic Fh grip.

The most common grips used for badminton are: Fh (shakehand) grip, Panhandle grip, Thumb grip & Bevel grip. Here’s a very decent grip primer for badminton:

Grips | Badminton Bible

Grips are how you hold the racket. You need to learn about these early on, as we'll refer to them all the time when learning shots.
www.badmintonbible.com

Learning the basic grips | Badminton Bible

You need to know a few different grips, because we'll use these names when you're learning a shot. Remember that these grips are **only a starting point.**
www.badmintonbible.com
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(y)You must be an advanced player, and can be a good coach.

I mentioned grip changes in #19, but never thought about how many grips I used.
 
onehandbh said:
I know a few people who injured thier shoulders after years of serving with a high elbow and trying to apply high force/arming their serves to hit it harder.

They believed in maximizing the contact point by reaching higher. They also had a poor kinetic chain and very little -- if any -- shoulder over shoulder in their motion. (left shoulder above right shoulder at trophy -> left shoulder down and right (hitting shoulder) up at contact)
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Luckily I've never hurt my shoulder in tennis. Even after 1K serves, I only feel occational muscle pain in upper arm. Hopefully that means my kinetic chain is okay.
 
jiangrm said:
(y)You must be an advanced player, and can be a good coach.

I mentioned grip changes in #19, but never thought about how many grips I used.
Click to expand...
Have not played competitively in more than 15 years — cuz of chronic injuries (auto accidents & exercise-related overuse injuries). Picked up the sport in my late 20s and was playing & competing at a high intermediate to a low advanced level — primarily in my 30s thru my mid 50s. The USBA, now USAB, had 5 levels for amateur competition. At my peak, I played at a B level, the 2nd highest USBA level.

I had done some badminton coaching for high school & college players. (However, I’ve done far more coaching in tennis than badminton). I had been posting on the Badminton Central forums for several years prior to posting joining Talk Tennis. I started using the SystemicAnomaly username on BC before joining TT. For several years prior to 2004, I had been posting on BC under other names.
 
Grafil Injection said:
I think the key term here is Elite. Most amateurs don't change grips from my limited experience anyway, and no coach has ever even mentioned variation.
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@jiangrm

No. Seems you misunderstood my posting on that. I was saying that most elite / advanced employed 4 or more different grips. And most competitive intermediate players used at least 2 or 3 different grips.

However, if you are playing primarily at recreational open gyms or in college classes, you may witness a large majority of players who only use 1 or 2 different grips. Many of these players played on high school teams— but not usually at the top HS level. In dedicated badminton gyms, you’ll likely witness a higher % of players who use 2 or more grips.

It’s fairly easy for me to spot players who use 1 grip for all of their shots. Most have a fairly weak Bh serve, suboptimal Bh strokes and often struggle with net kills and some of their hairpin net drops. Many of their Bh clears are not as strong or as effective
 
Grafil Injection said:
I think the key term here is Elite. Most amateurs don't change grips from my limited experience anyway, and no coach has ever even mentioned variation.
Click to expand...
Picked up tennis at 21 and badminton at 27/8 (college classes). As a novice player, for the first 3-6 months or so, I was primarily using my tennis strokes to play badminton against novice and low intermediate players. I believe I was using 2 grips — similar to my tennis grips. But, after 6 months, I started learning proper badminton stroke mechanics. Even as a low intermediate player (D level), I had learned to use a proper Thumb grip for many of my Bh shots.

When I started playing competitive tournaments, there were some D level and C level (strong intermediate) players using only one grip but a majority of these players were using at least two different grips. Most B players and the top C players were using 3 or more grip variations.
 
SystemicAnomaly said:
Picked up tennis at 21 and badminton at 27/8 (college classes). As a novice player, for the first 3-6 months or so, I was primarily using my tennis strokes to play badminton against novice and low intermediate players. I believe I was using 2 grips — similar to my tennis grips. But, after 6 months, I started learning proper badminton stroke mechanics. Even as a low intermediate player (D level), I had learned to use a proper Thumb grip for many of my Bh shots.

When I started playing competitive tournaments, there were some D level and C level (strong intermediate) players using only one grip but a majority of these players were using at least two different grips. Most B players and the top C players were using 3 or more grip variations.
Click to expand...

I'm sure you are right at an advanced level that small changes are regularly made, but all I know from going to 'recreational' coaching sessions in the UK, France and Switzerland over the years, is not one coach even mentioned the grip, so long as you had something like a Continental. It's pretty clear you can hit a perfectly good FH, BH and Smash on either wing with a Continental. The Neutral grip seems very similar but with different finger positioning for rapid changes (so not really a grip but more a ready position), and the Panhandle and Thumb grip appear to be for 'dink' shots at the net, so not really full strokes.

Indeed, in the grip videos above, the badminton FH grip appears to be the same as Continental in tennis, as it is also demonstrated as a 'chopper' grip, with the same way of finding it and the same thumb-forefinger v-shape. So since the original question was 'are badminton (FH) smashes hit with Continental?', I think that is still generally correct.
 
Grafil Injection said:
I'm sure you are right at an advanced level that small changes are regularly made, but all I know from going to 'recreational' coaching sessions in the UK, France and Switzerland over the years, is not one coach even mentioned the grip, so long as you had something like a Continental. It's pretty clear you can hit a perfectly good FH, BH and Smash on either wing with a Continental. The Neutral grip seems very similar but with different finger positioning for rapid changes (so not really a grip but more a ready position), and the Panhandle and Thumb grip appear to be for 'dink' shots at the net, so not really full strokes.

Indeed, in the grip videos above, the badminton FH grip appears to be the same as Continental in tennis, as it is also demonstrated as a 'chopper' grip, with the same way of finding it and the same thumb-forefinger v-shape. So since the original question was 'are badminton (FH) smashes hit with Continental?', I think that is still generally correct.
Click to expand...
Seriously, grip changes are NOT just for advanced players. Intermediate players are limiting themselves if they use just one grip for all strokes. I’ve been playing, competing (& watching) badminton for more than 45 years and have seen how a one-grip approach limits novices & intermediate players. I’ve been coaching the sport for nearly 35 years.

Even the legendary “Winning Badminton” by Kenneth R Davidson & Lealand R Gustavson, from 1953, discusses the importance of grip changes in badminton.

Players who employ just a single grip usually utilize one of two “forehand” grips. Many/some of these players use something close a Panhandle grip for (all of) their strokes. As a result, they employ very little (usually none) forearm rotations (pronation & supination) on any of their strokes. They may incorporate some shoulder rotation (ESR & ISR) — but not as much as they would if they used proper grip choices. The Panhandle grip is a very useful grip in badminton but it is optimal / appropriate for less than 15% of shots in badminton play.

Many single-grip players use something close to basic shakehand Fh grip (aka a V-grip). SOMEWHAT similar to a tennis Conti grip or Aussie grip (semi-Conti). As I indicated previously, it is best not to equate badminton grips to tennis grips since a badminton racket handle lies more in the fingers rather than the palm of the hand (as it does for tennis).

These players are somewhat better off than the Panhandle-only crowd. A basic badminton Fh grip is often suitable for more than half the shots used in badminton. Some players might even get decent results on nearly 2/3 of their shots with the handshake Fh grip. From what I’ve experienced & observed, this default grip is unsuitable or, at least, suboptimal for 30-40% of shots in competitive or even recreational badminton play.
 
Last edited:
@Grafil Injection @jiangrm

Players who use a frying pan (Panhandle) grip as their only grip for badminton should definitely also learn a Handshake grip (V-grip).

However, whether a single-grip player employs a Panhandle or V-grip, the 2nd grip they should develop is the Thumb grip. Some sources refer to this as the Backhand grip but I consider this to be misleading since there are 3 different grips commonly used for badminton backhands. And the Thumb grip can also be utilized for the Fh in certain situations.

Some decent information on the Thumb grip. A couple of these sources also provide hints on how to make grip changes a habit. There is additional information in some of these resources on how to utilize “finger power”.

https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZTMAaK31s
https://youtube.com/shorts/L2TFqZ9f0xs

https://youtu.be/2hot1hgjuyA
https://youtu.be/Laiu3Myd4J0

badminton-insight.com

The 4 Basic Grips In Badminton -With Pictures – Badminton Insight

Discover the four essential badminton grips—from forehand to backhand—to boost your control, precision, and overall performance on the court.
badminton-insight.com badminton-insight.com
 
Last edited:
SystemicAnomaly said:
@Grafil Injection @jiangrm

Players who use a frying pan (Panhandle) grip as their only grip for badminton should definitely also learn a Handshake grip (V-grip).

However, whether a single-grip player employs a Panhandle or V-grip, the 2nd grip they should develop is the Thumb grip. Some sources refer to this as the Backhand grip but I consider this to be misleading since there are 3 different grips commonly used for badminton backhands. And the Thumb grip can also be utilized for the Fh in certain situations.

Some decent information on the Thumb grip. A couple of these sources also provide hints on how to make grip changes a habit. There is additional information in some of these resources on how to utilize “finger power”.

https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZTMAaK31s
https://youtube.com/shorts/L2TFqZ9f0xs

https://youtu.be/2hot1hgjuyA
https://youtu.be/Laiu3Myd4J0

badminton-insight.com

The 4 Basic Grips In Badminton -With Pictures – Badminton Insight

Discover the four essential badminton grips—from forehand to backhand—to boost your control, precision, and overall performance on the court.
badminton-insight.com badminton-insight.com
Click to expand...

Yeah, I'm definitely not offering advice on badminton! Thinking about my amateur efforts, I actually think I rotated the handle slightly for those little dink-shots, just didn't really consider them grips. Kinda feel you have to hold the racket really lightly and constantly move it mm for shots when you can react quick enough.

Still the forehand badminton grip is Continental and as I recall you can vary your wrist pronation and racket path to vary the angle of smashes, which is kind-of what you can do in a tennis serve, just that it takes place much more slowly in tennis given the higher racket weight.
 
Grafil Injection said:
… the Panhandle and Thumb grip appear to be for 'dink' shots at the net, so not really full strokes.

So since the original question was 'are badminton (FH) smashes hit with Continental?', I think that is still generally correct.
Click to expand...
I am reluctant to refer to the badminton V-grip (Fh/ Handshake grip) as a Continental grip for the reason stated earlier. I believe my own implementation is closer to a tennis Aussie (semi-Conti) grip. Some competitive players use a partial / modified V-grip (rotated somewhat toward a Panhandle grip) for their baddie smashes (Lee Jae Bok).

The Thumb grip, Panhandle grip (and Bevel grip) are NOT just used for ‘dink’ shots at the net. (Even when they are utilized for shots that are not full strikes, they are not unimportant).

These grips, especially the Thumb & Panhandle grips, are particularly important for net kill shots — both basic kills and brush kills. The Thumb grip is also useful for hitting clears (lobs) off the net. Deceptions, like the Hold & Clear (aka Hold & Flick) can easily be implemented with this grip. This deception on the Fh side is often implemented with a V-grip or modified V-grip. The Fh implementation often requires a cocked (extended) wrist and the utilization of “finger power”.

Bevel & Thumb grips are often used for mid-court drives (& for push shots). The Bevel grip is commonly used for cross-court shots in the mid-court and for contacts deep in the backcourt on the Bh side.

The Panhandle is occasionally used on the Bh when the shuttle has gotten past the body. It can also be utilized for Fh reverse shots or for Fh smash deceptions.

 
Bringing it back to tennis …

The “finger power” technique I mentioned in a few of the badminton posts is actually something I learned in tennis, back in the 1980s, before learning about its use in badminton in the early /mid ‘90s. In tennis, “ finger power” can be utilized for serves, overheads and for volleys —particularly when volleying slow or moderately-paced incoming balls. Considerable RHS can be generated with a very short volley stroke if finger power is employed.
 
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