How different would tennis history look w/o Nadal's wrist injury at RG 2016?

[pedro94]

Slightly inspired by @Phenomenal thread on Madrid 2016 Nadal vs Murray, I also had a feeling at the time that Nadal was playing so much better on clay that year than the year prior.

Before the injury forced him to withdraw, in his 2 matches played he dished out 3 breadsticks and 1 bagel. He would have faced Granollers, Thiem and Goffin (all very manageable) before running into Djokovic in the semis. In this hypothetical match, would he have a good chance of avenging the 2015 defeat and beating Djokovic en route to his RG la decima a year earlier?

If he did win the title, how different would have Djokovic's 2016 turned out to be? We all know after RG 2016, after completing the career slam Djokovic struggled with proper motivation and eventually injuries as well. All that goes out the window with him still chasing the career slam in 2017. Novak could have likely had another 3 slam year.

This potentially derails Federer's and Nadal's fairytale run at AO 2017 with Djokovic in the mix hungry and motivated. Rafa would have to contend with Novak chasing that elusive career slam at RG (not that it would matter that much with the form he was in but still), and Fed fighting with 3 time defending champion Novak at Wimbledon. Murray would only have 1 Wimbledon to his name and even further away from MuryGOAT status

Apart from RG I can see Novak going berserk in 2017-2018 and Fed likely staying at 17 slams when all is said and done. Althought maybe with Novak completing his career slam at RG 2018, Fed will snatch Wimbledon 2019 with Djokovic in a potential slump after 2018.

How different would have 2016-(early)2020 looked with Rafa taking RG 2016? Let's not take post-covid era into consideration here, too many variables with the pandemic, bans etc.

 

[tennis3]

Tennis history without injured Nadal? Obviously Nadal never loses a single match.

Healthy Nadal even beats hypothetical Federer I think.

 

[The Blond Blur]

Even without the wrist injury he’s not winning RG that year. He was in the absolute worst sustained form of his career in 2015-2016. Had Moya been his coach at the time and they implemented the changes in tactics earlier like they did in 2017 then I think he wins there. But that’s at least two additional massive changes that would have needed to take place simultaneously for that to have happened.

I don’t think that changes things for Joker tbh. He was getting burned out by that point. Had he lost there it would have been absolutely crushing for him.

 

[jl809]

Ned was the 2nd fave for RG 2016 according to the pre tournament TTW resident expert poll

With Djoker’s atrocious scheduling, Ned would have had a shot in their SF match for sure, particularly considering how tight their Rome match had been with Ned having lots of opportunities to win both sets. Idk why people pretend he was just miles off Djoker that year on clay

But IRL the balance laws of the universe dictated that Fed wasn’t the only one allowed to win a Nadal-free RG in his prime, which I think is fair enough. If he got one, Djoker deserved one too.

Djoker would have ended up winning at least 2 RGs either way with what happened in 2021-2023, and probably ended up winning more slams in 2016 and 2017 without the motivation drop from completing the CGS.

So no 2017 AO Fedal final for example, and probably 5 USOs for egg by now

 

[socallefty]

What would have happened if Djokovic didn’t get an elbow injury a few weeks later that he would not get surgery on for almost two years which then produced poor results till the summer of 2018? He followed the best stretch of his career with two years of terrible results for a top player. During this period Federer and Nadal won almost all the Slams that were held.

Injuries happen in sports.

 

[Sport]

Tennis history without injured Nadal? Obviously Nadal never loses a single match.

Healthy Nadal even beats hypothetical Federer I think.

That is a logical fallacy (wrong argument) known as appeal to ridicule, which consists in presenting an opponent's argument as absurd, ridiculous or humorous and therefore not worthy of serious consideration, to avoid discussing it seriously.

No one has ever said that healthy Nadal wins every single tennis match. Healthy Nadal loses hypothetical matchups at the AO 2015 or the AO 2016 to Novak quite easily, also to 2017 Federer at Wimbledon or to 2014 either Federer or Novak at Wimbledon. Those are only a few examples. 2015 Nadal also lost to Novak at RG despite being healthy.

Now, the specific question OP asked deserves serious consideration. 2016 Nadal wasn't 2015 Nadal. 2016 Nadal won a Masters 1000 on clay, in particular Montecarlo, while 2015 Nadal won nothing notorious. Also, in Rome 2016 Nadal disputed an extra-close match against Novak thast could've gone either way in the second set. In the first set, Nadal was leading 4-2 but Novak ended up winning. And in the second set, Nadal was serving 5-4 to win the set and Novak miraculously saved... 5 consecutive set points on the return! How many days do you save 5 set points on the return against Nadal on clay? That was an anomaly, rather than something we see everyday. Had Nadal won the second set, who knows what could've happened in the third.

Anyway, in Rome 2016 Nadal proved to have improved a lot. It reminds me of Rome 2018, where Nadal beat Novak in 2, but Novak showed some progression (in fact he then went on to win Wimbledon 2018).

Had Nadal stayed healthy at RG 2016, he'd have had a fantastic chance to win his then 10th RG. But we will never know. And, it's untestable, threfore unprovable, therefore irrelevant.

Credit to Novak for completing the Career Grand Slam against Murray though.

 

[BauerAlmeida]

So Djokovic wins over Nadal in 2016 don't count because of poor form but Nadal would have beaten him if he had been healthy



I think Djokovic would have been slight favorite had they meet in 2016, but the match would have been far closer than in 2015. 2015 was good to get the monkey off his back of a win vs Nadal, now in 2016 he didn't feel that pressure but he still had the pressure of winning RG. OTOH, Nadal was not in great form but still much better than 2015.

I think it would have been 60-40 for Djokovic, maybe 65-35?

And if Djokovic does not win that F.O I don't think he goes into a slump, probably wins Wimbledon I think. Maybe he deals with the injury in a different way.

 

[inflation_era]

Interesting so Nadal lost to Djokovic at 2015 FO despite being healthy?

 

[jl809]

Interesting so Nadal lost to Djokovic at 2015 FO despite being healthy?

Who tf has ever disputed this lol. The straw man to beat all straw men

 

[fedfan24]

If Nadal brings a leve anywhere close to 17-20 then Djokovic goes without a RG title until 21 where the pressure would be unbelievable high. Of course he would still likely win the 2023 challenger clay slam.

 

[Kralingen]

Nah I think the conditions especially of RG 16 make that an up hill battle for even a healthy Rafa. Remember how rainy and cloudy it was? The final vs Murray especially was the exact conditions that favourable to Novak and not Rafa in a clay match. I also think it was a rare time of confidence for Djokovic on clay vs Nadal coming off the RG 15 win, he would’ve felt that he turned the tide.

Plus it would’ve been the first Slam match of real intensity and stakes for Rafa in awhile. I just don’t think he was quite there wrist injury or not. He would’ve had a chance, a better one than Murray absolutely, but I’m not willing to give him the title that year. I think he was just a little bit too much behind schedule to actually win a Slam at that point in time.

 

[JFK_32]

I think it would change much. Rafa would won tournament, and then djokovic wouldnt win 4 slams in row, and he wont lose motivation like he did after this tournament. After that he was slamless for two years. For sure if Novak wouldnt lost this RG16, he would be still motivated to win 17,18 etc.

 

[Mustard]

Without the wrist injury? Nadal most likely would have lost to Djokovic in the semi finals.

 

[vive le beau jeu !]

@helterskelter

 

[kevaninho]

Ive always debated this on here. I felt Rafa was in good enough form by then to have won that match against Djokovic.

Of course it wasnt going to be easy for either player, probably 50/50 actually, considering their Rome match beforehand, plus Rafa wouldve gotten better and more confident by the time he got to Novak.

I cant understand anyone who says Nadal had no chance. He lost close matches to both Djoker and Murray right before RG on clay. His form was way better than 2015, and without the wrist injury, he wouldve been in the mix for the USO series and Asian swing IMO.

 

[Hitman]

8-3 instead of 8-2 if everything else stays the same.

 

[Deleted member 806402]

@helterskelter

 

[Phenomenal]

Ned was the 2nd fave for RG 2016 according to the pre tournament TTW resident expert poll

With Djoker’s atrocious scheduling, Ned would have had a shot in their SF match for sure, particularly considering how tight their Rome match had been with Ned having lots of opportunities to win both sets. Idk why people pretend he was just miles off Djoker that year on clay

But IRL the balance laws of the universe dictated that Fed wasn’t the only one allowed to win a Nadal-free RG in his prime, which I think is fair enough. If he got one, Djoker deserved one too.

Djoker would have ended up winning at least 2 RGs either way with what happened in 2021-2023, and probably ended up winning more slams in 2016 and 2017 without the motivation drop from completing the CGS.

So no 2017 AO Fedal final for example, and probably 5 USOs for egg by now

Yeah that's just weird agenda.

That is a logical fallacy (wrong argument) known as appeal to ridicule, which consists in presenting an opponent's argument as absurd, ridiculous or humorous and therefore not worthy of serious consideration, to avoid discussing it seriously.

No one has ever said that healthy Nadal wins every single tennis match. Healthy Nadal loses hypothetical matchups at the AO 2015 or the AO 2016 to Novak quite easily, also to 2017 Federer at Wimbledon or to 2014 either Federer or Novak at Wimbledon. Those are only a few examples. 2015 Nadal also lost to Novak at RG despite being healthy.

Now, the specific question OP asked deserves serious consideration. 2016 Nadal wasn't 2015 Nadal. 2016 Nadal won a Masters 1000 on clay, in particular Montecarlo, while 2015 Nadal won nothing notorious. Also, in Rome 2016 Nadal disputed an extra-close match against Novak thast could've gone either way in the second set. In the first set, Nadal was leading 4-2 but Novak ended up winning. And in the second set, Nadal was serving 5-4 to win the set and Novak miraculously saved... 5 consecutive set points on the return! How many days do you save 5 set points on the return against Nadal on clay? That was an anomaly, rather than something we see everyday. Had Nadal won the second set, who knows what could've happened in the third.

Anyway, in Rome 2016 Nadal proved to have improved a lot. It reminds me of Rome 2018, where Nadal beat Novak in 2, but Novak showed some progression (in fact he then went on to win Wimbledon 2018).

Had Nadal stayed healthy at RG 2016, he'd have had a fantastic chance to win his then 10th RG. But we will never know. And, it's untestable, threfore unprovable, therefore irrelevant.

Credit to Novak for completing the Career Grand Slam against Murray though.

That's the real and logical answer.

 

[Phenomenal]

What would have happened if Djokovic didn’t get an elbow injury a few weeks later that he would not get surgery on for almost two years which then produced poor results till the summer of 2018? He followed the best stretch of his career with two years of terrible results for a top player. During this period Federer and Nadal won almost all the Slams that were held.

Injuries happen in sports.

Comparing Nadal to Djokovic on injuries. Stop it really. Djokovic in his whole career didn't started playing only 1 slam due to injury. He even won rome in 2017 played consecutive 2 QF in both 2017 and 2018 at RG.

As i always say you are insanely biased.

Also do you have any idea why it was his best stretch? Fed and Nadal was at their absolute best.

 

[Phenomenal]

People have short memory and due to Nadal's horrible 2015 many think Nadal has no chance. He proved odds wrong in most of the time at RG.

Had 2015 never happened nobody would think like they now. Most combine Nadal's 2015 form with his 2016 clay form.

Nadal wasn't any favourite in 2014 before tournament(zero clay titles) or 2020 or 2022 but in the end he won. The thing is it cannot be proven but saying Nadal has no chance or Djokovic overwhelming favourite against Nadal is nonsense to me. IMO it would be close match that could gone either way.


There is also that Nadal never lost twice in a row at RG.

 

[Phenomenal]

Actually Rome match easily suggest that this would have never been easy for Djokovic. Only 3 more points for long straight set match for Djokovic at Rome.

 

[helterskelter]

@helterskelter

Moral victory for Bull for sure. I’m still frankly astonished when I think about how a pack of politicians managed to achieve three victories over him in 2022, after the entire tennis world had failed dismally for at least 145 years!

 

[djokovic the conqueror]

Djokovic still wins in the semifinal in straight sets but it would be a more competitive match than their 2015 quarterfinal.

 

[Hitman]

Nadal winning MC in 2016 being brought up to show how much better he was.

Nadal would have won MC in 2015 also without Djokovic beating him in the semi. No way was Berdych beating him in the final, the same Berdych who Nadal crushed in Madrid in 2015 on conditions less favorable to Nadal.

He won MC 2016 because no Djokovic was there. Had Nadal won MC in 2015 without facing Djokovic, and then forced to pull out of RG, I am certain we would have heard the same narrative that had Nadal played he likely would win.

Nadal only avoided back to back loses at RG in 2016. His form was questionable, and people are forgetting a very key thing, Nadal was blinking first more often than not in tight situations than his opponent would. He was not as reliable to deliver in clutch situations, hence why some say that Nadal was the best clutch player up until 2014 only.

So in short, nothing changes.

 

[GabeT]

we will never know. And, it's untestable, threfore unprovable, therefore irrelevant.

yes

 

[GabeT]

Tennis history without injured Nadal? Obviously Nadal never loses a single match.

Healthy Nadal even beats hypothetical Federer I think.

Healthy Nadal vs Hypothetical Fed. The Unstoppable Force meets the Unmovable Object

 

[Lauren_Girl']

Comparing Nadal to Djokovic on injuries. Stop it really. Djokovic in his whole career didn't started playing only 1 slam due to injury. He even won rome in 2017 played consecutive 2 QF in both 2017 and 2018 at RG.

As i always say you are insanely biased.

Also do you have any idea why it was his best stretch? Fed and Nadal was at their absolute best.

Meh. Djokovic had to deal with a lot of issues at the start of his career. Respiratory problems, allergies, asthma, gluten intolerance. He literally wasted 5 entire seasons (2006-2010) because of this. Who knows how many more Slams he'd have won during that period. We can say that maybe Nadal would have... if... but the same can be said about Djokovic. What if his gluten issue disappeared in 2006 rather than 2010? Nadal definitely had more injuries but let's not pretend Djokovic always avoided them. Fedal won 6 Slams between Wimbledon 2016 and RG 2018 because Djokovic was dealing with elbow/shoulder injuries. Djokovic is always playing with some minor injuries, I'll always remember what he said in RG a few years ago. Would have taken him too long to list all the injuries he was dealing with. He won Australia with an abs tear and again with an harmstring tear. Last year he won RG with elbow pain and the US Open with shoulder pain.

Every players have injuries, Nadal isn't the only one. Injuries are parts of the sport at the end of the day. There are specific reasons why Nadal had more injuries. He made a lot of mistakes with his calendars/planning. Played way too much on clay and couldn't be fresh the rest of the year. Djokovic never overplayed and has always been smarter with calendars. Djokovic (and Federer) were also able to evolve and adapt their playing style over the years. They became more aggressive, improved their net game and serve. Nadal also evolved and improved, but not in the same proportions as Djokovic. That's on Nadal himself. His game is very phyisical and demanding, there were always going to be some consequences.

People have short memory and due to Nadal's horrible 2015 many think Nadal has no chance. He proved odds wrong in most of the time at RG.

Had 2015 never happened nobody would think like they now. Most combine Nadal's 2015 form with his 2016 clay form.

Nadal wasn't any favourite in 2014 before tournament(zero clay titles) or 2020 or 2022 but in the end he won. The thing is it cannot be proven but saying Nadal has no chance or Djokovic overwhelming favourite against Nadal is nonsense to me. IMO it would be close match that could gone either way.


There is also that Nadal never lost twice in a row at RG.

Nadal will always have a chance against everyone including Djokovic on clay, but that's not true on other surfaces and that's the major difference between Nadal and Djokovic. One is verstatile and beat his rival everywhere, won every single major titles 3 times. Straight-setted him in every single clay Majors. The other one is less polyvalent, only won 1 Indoors title, never won WTF and 3 HC Masters, never beat his rival in 2 Slams and several HC Masters. You mention Rome and RG and you prove my point. Nadal and Djokovic met 10 times in Rome and 10 times in RG, Nadal won more matches but Djokovic still won several matches. They hardly ever met in Djokovic's favorite non-clay tournaments (AO, Miami, Wimbledon, Paris, Shanghaï, WTF). He hasn't won a set against Djokovic on hard courts since 2013. The few times they played in Miami, Paris or in Australia, we saw what happened. I don't have short memory about these things.

 

[BlueB]

What wrist injury? It was a typical case of "run for the hills". He got spanked the previous year, his form fas crap, he knew what was coming...

 

[ALCARAZWON]

What wrist injury? It was a typical case of "run for the hills". He got spanked the previous year, his form fas crap, he knew what was coming...

That wrist injury continued after Roland Garros too, and he skipped Wimbledon, and played in pain at the Olympics and looked weak at the US Open.
He had no power.

 

[BlueB]

That wrist injury continued after Roland Garros too, and he skipped Wimbledon, and played in pain at the Olympics and looked weak at the US Open.
He had no power.

Nadal always withdraws from Wim, when he's crappy at RG. Or, looses to Dustin Browns of the world...

 

[Rafa24]

Nadal always withdraws from Wim, when he's crappy at RG. Or, looses to Dustin Browns of the world...

*loses

 

[Phenomenal]

Meh. Djokovic had to deal with a lot of issues at the start of his career. Respiratory problems, allergies, asthma, gluten intolerance. He literally wasted 5 entire seasons (2006-2010) because of this. Who knows how many more Slams he'd have won during that period. We can say that maybe Nadal would have... if... but the same can be said about Djokovic. What if his gluten issue disappeared in 2006 rather than 2010? Nadal definitely had more injuries but let's not pretend Djokovic always avoided them. Fedal won 6 Slams between Wimbledon 2016 and RG 2018 because Djokovic was dealing with elbow/shoulder injuries. Djokovic is always playing with some minor injuries, I'll always remember what he said in RG a few years ago. Would have taken him too long to list all the injuries he was dealing with. He won Australia with an abs tear and again with an harmstring tear. Last year he won RG with elbow pain and the US Open with shoulder pain.

Every players have injuries, Nadal isn't the only one. Injuries are parts of the sport at the end of the day. There are specific reasons why Nadal had more injuries. He made a lot of mistakes with his calendars/planning. Played way too much on clay and couldn't be fresh the rest of the year. Djokovic never overplayed and has always been smarter with calendars. Djokovic (and Federer) were also able to evolve and adapt their playing style over the years. They became more aggressive, improved their net game and serve. Nadal also evolved and improved, but not in the same proportions as Djokovic. That's on Nadal himself. His game is very phyisical and demanding, there were always going to be some consequences.



Nadal will always have a chance against everyone including Djokovic on clay, but that's not true on other surfaces and that's the major difference between Nadal and Djokovic. One is verstatile and beat his rival everywhere, won every single major titles 3 times. Straight-setted him in every single clay Majors. The other one is less polyvalent, only won 1 Indoors title, never won WTF and 3 HC Masters, never beat his rival in 2 Slams and several HC Masters. You mention Rome and RG and you prove my point. Nadal and Djokovic met 10 times in Rome and 10 times in RG, Nadal won more matches but Djokovic still won several matches. They hardly ever met in Djokovic's favorite non-clay tournaments (AO, Miami, Wimbledon, Paris, Shanghaï, WTF). He hasn't won a set against Djokovic on hard courts since 2013. The few times they played in Miami, Paris or in Australia, we saw what happened. I don't have short memory about these things.

Meh? idk what are you talking about. Lets go further and claim Djokovic had more issues than Nadal. TTW is ridiculous place. Yeah as i said they are not comparable whatsoever.
One is the guy who is among best of all sports for taking care of his body or being healthy. i said this many times and praise him for that and it counts. Nadal has tons more those minor issues mid match things you talk about and it's not close.

Delpotro Murray or others are comparable to Nadal to have more or less injuries not Djokovic or Federer. Did you check yourself their career to see...

Djokovic is no more versatil than Nadal at slams. He won many of his late slams with the absense of Nadal. Until last year he was behind Nadal at USO despite Nadal missing tons.
We will never know he wouldn't have won in any of them easily with Nadal. In most 2021-2023 slams including Wimbledon 2022. Nadal has long history at AO being injured.

Yes he has 3 on all but 2 of his 3 RG where there was no Nadal. Only people here can say 0 time champion would have easy time to win RG in 2016. Most confuse Nadal's form with 2015.
Of course these are not Djokovic's fault and he deserved and won them but comparing Nadal to Djokovic doesn't even accepting injury part, including saying Nadal wouldn't have chance against Djokovic outside of clay is wrong. At slams only at AO Nadal will have very hard time winning against Djokovic.

About last part i didn't talk about that and say anything about who is more versatil or better on calendar year and it's Djokovic. Nadal beat him at Wimbledon at AO they played twice and Nadal is not the only responsible for playing less.

 

[Phenomenal]

Nadal winning MC in 2016 being brought up to show how much better he was.

Nadal would have won MC in 2015 also without Djokovic beating him in the semi. No way was Berdych beating him in the final, the same Berdych who Nadal crushed in Madrid in 2015 on conditions less favorable to Nadal.

He won MC 2016 because no Djokovic was there. Had Nadal won MC in 2015 without facing Djokovic, and then forced to pull out of RG, I am certain we would have heard the same narrative that had Nadal played he likely would win.

Nadal only avoided back to back loses at RG in 2016. His form was questionable, and people are forgetting a very key thing, Nadal was blinking first more often than not in tight situations than his opponent would. He was not as reliable to deliver in clutch situations, hence why some say that Nadal was the best clutch player up until 2014 only.

So in short, nothing changes.

Oh sure we would have hear those narratives as we are hearing now Had Nadal not played AO 09(he never won before) Wimbledon 2008 USO 2010(never done well there)
RG 11 he wouldn't have won anyway because he lost to Djokovic everywhere.
RG14 He didn't do almost anything on clay of course Nadal wouldn't have won had he missed RG 14.

USO 19(Nadal was not defeating Djokovic or Federer or whatever he wouldn't have won)
AO 2022( even without Djokovic he wouldn't have won the guy didn'T played 5-6 months of tennis outside of washington
he wouldn't stand a chance against Med don't be delusional Nadal fans)
He didn't do anything on clay season Djokovic and Alcaraz was in form Nadal wouldn't have won RG 22. These would be the reactions.

As i always say you can't win without playing, Nadal simply didn't have chance as much as Djokovic or Federer.

 

[Phenomenal]

Nadal winning MC in 2016 being brought up to show how much better he was.

Nadal would have won MC in 2015 also without Djokovic beating him in the semi. No way was Berdych beating him in the final, the same Berdych who Nadal crushed in Madrid in 2015 on conditions less favorable to Nadal.

He won MC 2016 because no Djokovic was there. Had Nadal won MC in 2015 without facing Djokovic, and then forced to pull out of RG, I am certain we would have heard the same narrative that had Nadal played he likely would win.

Most Nadal fans doesn't say that for RG 2015 Nadal likely would have lost to other players due to his form. It's actually some Djokovic fans says Nadal would still win RG15 without Djokovic probably to promote their win.

Djokovic was there and lost in MC 2016 it's not the same sitution. And go compare to Nadal at RG to Djokovic at MC.

 

[Hitman]

Most Nadal fans doesn't say that for RG 2015 Nadal likely would have lost to other players due to his form. It's actually some Djokovic fans says Nadal would still win RG15 without Djokovic probably to promote their win.

Djokovic was there and lost in MC 2016 it's not the same sitution. And go compare to Nadal at RG to Djokovic at MC.

Of course Nadal fans wouldn't, because they want to downplay the win against him, the same way Djokovic fans want to build the win up. If you take a step back and look at it, you will see this clearly. Had Nadal won MC in 2015 by not facing Djokovic and then somehow was injured for RG, no question we would be constantly hearing that Nadal would have won RG 2015 had he played.

The situation is exactly the same. I know how Nadal fans love to give hypothetical wins to Nadal, for events he didn't play to prop up the whole - If he wasn't injured narrative he would have won more. I see it with W 2009, USO 2012, USO 2014 and of course with RG 2016. I know the playbook on this.

I'm actually downplaying wins against the weak Nadal from 2015-2016 period, not bringing them up. It is very convenient that the one match that didn't happen, Nadal was legit contention to win, when he had his butt handed to him in seven straight matches leading in without winning a single set anywhere. And again, I say this because Nadal was not in form, and before you say again that anything before clay season doesn't matter, then that is cherry picking of the highest standard to push the narrative....had Djokovic not been there, Nadal wins Doha 2016 and wins IW 2016 also, it took Djokovic peaking to stop him, I can easily make the case that Nadal was already playing fantastic well before, as he had a very decent indoor season in 2015 by his own standard, so the wins in later 2015 also count, and that MC 2015 should also count as without Djokovic, Nadal beats Berdych to win MC that year also....See, we can keep going back and forth.

The thing is, I am not going to cherry pick - Nadal sucked in 2015 and 2016, that is it, he wasn't beat peak Djokovic anywhere, and after the loss the year before, Djokovic had not mental burdens heading into 2016 of facing a diminished Nadal again. He had crossed that hurdle already.

And what do you think you are going to achieve going around in circles with me here? You know full well we that we have very opposing views and opinions on this, so what do you think the aim of discussing this over and over with me is going to get for us both? We both agree to disagree, right?

Again, I like you as a poster, I enjoy reading your stuff, but this is something we cannot ever agree on, so it is fruitless to continue it. I'm saying any more on it.

 

[Phenomenal]

Of course Nadal fans wouldn't, because they want to downplay the win against him, the same way Djokovic fans want to build the win up. If you take a step back and look at it, you will see this clearly. Had Nadal won MC in 2015 by not facing Djokovic and then somehow was injured for RG, no question we would be constantly hearing that Nadal would have won RG 2015 had he played.

The situation is exactly the same. I know how Nadal fans love to give hypothetical wins to Nadal, for events he didn't play to prop up the whole - If he wasn't injured narrative he would have won more. I see it with W 2009, USO 2012, USO 2014 and of course with RG 2016. I know the playbook on this.

I'm actually downplaying wins against the weak Nadal from 2015-2016 period, not bringing them up. It is very convenient that the one match that didn't happen, Nadal was legit contention to win, when he had his butt handed to him in seven straight matches leading in without winning a single set anywhere. And again, I say this because Nadal was not in form, and before you say again that anything before clay season doesn't matter, then that is cherry picking of the highest standard to push the narrative....had Djokovic not been there, Nadal wins Doha 2016 and wins IW 2016 also, it took Djokovic peaking to stop him, I can easily make the case that Nadal was already playing fantastic well before, as he had a very decent indoor season in 2015 by his own standard, so the wins in later 2015 also count, and that MC 2015 should also count as without Djokovic, Nadal beats Berdych to win MC that year also....See, we can keep going back and forth.

The thing is, I am not going to cherry pick - Nadal sucked in 2015 and 2016, that is it, he wasn't beat peak Djokovic anywhere, and after the loss the year before, Djokovic had not mental burdens heading into 2016 of facing a diminished Nadal again. He had crossed that hurdle already.

And what do you think you are going to achieve going around in circles with me here? You know full well we that we have very opposing views and opinions on this, so what do you think the aim of discussing this over and over with me is going to get for us both? We both agree to disagree, right?

Again, I like you as a poster, I enjoy reading your stuff, but this is something we cannot ever agree on, so it is fruitless to continue it. I'm saying any more on it.

Absolutely true.
I feel you or some others doesn't give Nadal any credit or actually underrating him to the death here and i feel i'm giving more credit to Djokovic and accepting those many arguments in general but i don't see that from other side atleast in this topic. MC 2015 was not close like Rome in 2016.

Lastly yeah we have very opposing views I don't understand your accuse. I already wrote many times i didn't have any confidence in 2015 at RG against Djokovic was just wishing at the time.
But it was different in 2016 anyway i'm saying you can't accuse me on that or talk about the narrative just because few people you saw here talking different. That was never my opinion.

 

[Hitman]

Absolutely true.
I feel you or some others doesn't give Nadal any credit or actually underrating him to the death here and i feel i'm giving more credit to Djokovic and accepting those many arguments in general but i don't see that from other side atleast in this topic. MC 2015 was not close like Rome in 2016.

Lastly yeah we have very opposing views I don't understand your accuse. I already wrote many times i didn't have any confidence in 2015 at RG against Djokovic was just wishing at the time.
But it was different in 2016 anyway i'm saying you can't accuse me on that or talk about the narrative just because few people you saw here talking different. That was never my opinion.

My friend, find another dancing partner for this discussion, we'll catch up on something different down the road.

 

[nolefam_2024]

Of course Nadal fans wouldn't, because they want to downplay the win against him, the same way Djokovic fans want to build the win up. If you take a step back and look at it, you will see this clearly. Had Nadal won MC in 2015 by not facing Djokovic and then somehow was injured for RG, no question we would be constantly hearing that Nadal would have won RG 2015 had he played.

The situation is exactly the same. I know how Nadal fans love to give hypothetical wins to Nadal, for events he didn't play to prop up the whole - If he wasn't injured narrative he would have won more. I see it with W 2009, USO 2012, USO 2014 and of course with RG 2016. I know the playbook on this.

I'm actually downplaying wins against the weak Nadal from 2015-2016 period, not bringing them up. It is very convenient that the one match that didn't happen, Nadal was legit contention to win, when he had his butt handed to him in seven straight matches leading in without winning a single set anywhere. And again, I say this because Nadal was not in form, and before you say again that anything before clay season doesn't matter, then that is cherry picking of the highest standard to push the narrative....had Djokovic not been there, Nadal wins Doha 2016 and wins IW 2016 also, it took Djokovic peaking to stop him, I can easily make the case that Nadal was already playing fantastic well before, as he had a very decent indoor season in 2015 by his own standard, so the wins in later 2015 also count, and that MC 2015 should also count as without Djokovic, Nadal beats Berdych to win MC that year also....See, we can keep going back and forth.

The thing is, I am not going to cherry pick - Nadal sucked in 2015 and 2016, that is it, he wasn't beat peak Djokovic anywhere, and after the loss the year before, Djokovic had not mental burdens heading into 2016 of facing a diminished Nadal again. He had crossed that hurdle already.

And what do you think you are going to achieve going around in circles with me here? You know full well we that we have very opposing views and opinions on this, so what do you think the aim of discussing this over and over with me is going to get for us both? We both agree to disagree, right?

Again, I like you as a poster, I enjoy reading your stuff, but this is something we cannot ever agree on, so it is fruitless to continue it. I'm saying any more on it.

We don't need to build the win up .

7 matches zero sets lost and -125 odds on favorite. Djokovic was even more favorite than 2015 because people knew what he achieved in 2015 is NON REPLICABLE.

God mode.

 

[Mustard]

Nadal always withdraws from Wim, when he's crappy at RG. Or, looses to Dustin Browns of the world...

Nadal has withdrawn from Wimbledon in:

2004: Ankle stress fracture sustained at 2004 Estoril
2009: Knee tendinitis
2016: Wrist injury sustained at 2016 French Open
2021: Cited reasons of trying to prolong career
2023: Similar to 2021, after sustaining a hip injury at the Australian Open

 

[NAS]

Nadal has withdrawn from Wimbledon in:

2004: Ankle stress fracture sustained at 2004 Estoril
2009: Knee tendinitis
2016: Wrist injury sustained at 2016 French Open
2021: Cited reasons of trying to prolong career
2023: Similar to 2021, after sustaining a hip injury at the Australian Open

He got foot injury in 2021, he was not prolonging, he was being smart, which he should have done in 2022 also where he played whole Wimbledon and later US Open and yec with injured body and made everything worse

 

[ADuck]

Rafa would've had a good chance. 50/50 match I reckon. What we saw in Rome 2016 would've only been about 80% of the Nadal we'd see at RG that year. He always peaks at RG, people forget that.