How do appeals work

HBK4life

Hall of Fame
I have a friend that got bumped to 5.0 last year and has now appealed down to 4.5. It’s not medical he just clicked appeal and was granted. He wants to play on our 4.5 team. My question is is he safe for a year? If he does not well in singles will he get DQed? Should he stick to doubles?
 

UtahPack

New User
That means he's going to be a high rated 4.5. Yes, if he plays and does well he's eligible for NTRP Disqualification. Meaning he could get mid season bumped. From my understanding, singles is the easiest way to get bumped. I'd try to mask his rating in doubles as much as possible.
 

Pass750

Professional
That means he's going to be a high rated 4.5. Yes, if he plays and does well he's eligible for NTRP Disqualification. Meaning he could get mid season bumped. From my understanding, singles is the easiest way to get bumped. I'd try to mask his rating in doubles as much as possible.
The sportsman like thing to do, manipulate the ratings. User name checks out too….
 

UtahPack

New User
LOL. he asked is he safe for a year? Short answer is NO, but it's more complex than that. Just helping him understand how to try to keep his friend at 4.5 as long as possible. I didn't say tell your friend to throw matches. Just that playing doubles doesn't kill your rating as much as singles does.
 

nyta2

Legend
I have a friend that got bumped to 5.0 last year and has now appealed down to 4.5. It’s not medical he just clicked appeal and was granted. He wants to play on our 4.5 team. My question is is he safe for a year? If he does not well in singles will he get DQed? Should he stick to doubles?
That means he's going to be a high rated 4.5. Yes, if he plays and does well he's eligible for NTRP Disqualification. Meaning he could get mid season bumped. From my understanding, singles is the easiest way to get bumped. I'd try to mask his rating in doubles as much as possible.
best way to avoid getting bumped is to manage the score :) ideally lose more games while winning the match (eg. 7-6, 0-6, 1-0)

that said, someone playing at that high a level is probably not really interested in sandbagging
 

J_R_B

Hall of Fame
I have a friend that got bumped to 5.0 last year and has now appealed down to 4.5. It’s not medical he just clicked appeal and was granted. He wants to play on our 4.5 team. My question is is he safe for a year? If he does not well in singles will he get DQed? Should he stick to doubles?
There is a lot to unpack here. I'll take it one at a time.

The auto-appeal of C-ratings is just based on the player's underlying year-end DNTRP. If it's within a certain tolerance, the appeal is granted. If it is not, the appeal is denied. If he was bumped, his DNTRP was 4.50 or higher. Since the appeal was granted, it wasn't higher than the appeal tolerance, so his year-end DNTRP was somewhere in the range of 4.50-4.55 (or whatever the exact tolerance is).

This is different than either medical appeals or self-rating appeals where the person has to fill out a more detailed form about either their background or their medical status and a committee of actual people look at it and decide.

For the other question, A-rated players can get strikes and get dynamically DQ'd. BUT, it is much more difficult to get DQ'd as an appeal than as a self-rate. The reason for this is that the player has a DNTRP that is barely over the bump threshold but significantly below the strike threshold, so the averaging of the match rating and existing DNTRP can be done as it is for C-rated players from the first match. For S-rated players, there is no existing DNTRP, so the match rating *IS* the DNTRP for the purpose of strike determination in their first two matches. Most S-rate DQ's happen because the self-rated player puts up a big match rating in their first match and can't recover from it when it starts to be averaged into the DNTRP. In other words, if the strike threshold for 4.5 is 4.70, then an A-rate with a starting DNTRP of 4.55 can play a match with a rating of 4.75 and the DNTRP is only 4.65 (average of 4.55 and 4.75). If he plays a second match at 4.75, it is also only a 4.65 DNTRP (average of 4.55, 4.65, and 4.75). Two matches over the strike threshold, no strikes. For the S-rate, the strike threshold is compared to the raw match rating (i.e. 4.75 in both cases) for the first two matches, and that player would have two strikes. In addition, if the player was bumped but only into the appeal range, then that player played at a 4.55 level the previous year. If that rating was not manipulated, then a sudden jump from playing 4.55 level tennis to 4.75 level tennis would be very unusual (i.e. not many people go from 4.5/5.0 borderline level to mid-5.0 or better between the end of one season and the start of the next). The easiest way to get strike level match ratings is to play up and win, so I'd recommend that he doesn't play in a 5.0 league, and the risk of DQ for an A-rate is very low.

As for singles vs doubles, I don't think that singles is more risky in terms of strikes unless he is very significantly better at singles. In other words, if he got a 4.55 rating as an average of playing 4.30 level doubles and 4.80 level singles, then he should probably save the singles for sectionals/nationals. But, if he's not some kind of singles hammer who is lost in doubles, then doubles might actually be more risky. The doubles calculation is more complex because there are 4 people to consider in the match ratings, but the partners in a doubles calculation maintain their starting rating differential in their individual match ratings. As an A-rate, your buddy will always be the higher rated partner, so if the rating differential is significant (i.e. he plays with a low-rated 4.5 partner), there is a danger of generating very high ratings because of the differential. In other words, if he is 4.55 and he plays with a 4.05 rated partner and they beat a top 4.5 team (so that their match rating as a team is 4.55 or something like that), your buddy would get a 4.80 match rating and his partner 4.30 to maintain the original 0.50 rating differential. If you're in a league where the higher rated players always play singles and you think you'll face lower rated players in doubles, then I'd recommend that he always has a higher-rated partner so that an anomaly with the rating differential doesn't generate strikes.
 

HBK4life

Hall of Fame
best way to avoid getting bumped is to manage the score :) ideally lose more games while winning the match (eg. 7-6, 0-6, 1-0)

that said, someone playing at that high a level is probably not really interested in sandbagging
Yea he won’t do that. I told him we could have him play doubles. Thanks everyone.
 

schmke

Legend
There is a lot to unpack here. I'll take it one at a time.

The auto-appeal of C-ratings is just based on the player's underlying year-end DNTRP. If it's within a certain tolerance, the appeal is granted. If it is not, the appeal is denied. If he was bumped, his DNTRP was 4.50 or higher. Since the appeal was granted, it wasn't higher than the appeal tolerance, so his year-end DNTRP was somewhere in the range of 4.50-4.55 (or whatever the exact tolerance is).

This is different than either medical appeals or self-rating appeals where the person has to fill out a more detailed form about either their background or their medical status and a committee of actual people look at it and decide.

For the other question, A-rated players can get strikes and get dynamically DQ'd. BUT, it is much more difficult to get DQ'd as an appeal than as a self-rate. The reason for this is that the player has a DNTRP that is barely over the bump threshold but significantly below the strike threshold, so the averaging of the match rating and existing DNTRP can be done as it is for C-rated players from the first match. For S-rated players, there is no existing DNTRP, so the match rating *IS* the DNTRP for the purpose of strike determination in their first two matches. Most S-rate DQ's happen because the self-rated player puts up a big match rating in their first match and can't recover from it when it starts to be averaged into the DNTRP. In other words, if the strike threshold for 4.5 is 4.70, then an A-rate with a starting DNTRP of 4.55 can play a match with a rating of 4.75 and the DNTRP is only 4.65 (average of 4.55 and 4.75). If he plays a second match at 4.75, it is also only a 4.65 DNTRP (average of 4.55, 4.65, and 4.75). Two matches over the strike threshold, no strikes. For the S-rate, the strike threshold is compared to the raw match rating (i.e. 4.75 in both cases) for the first two matches, and that player would have two strikes. In addition, if the player was bumped but only into the appeal range, then that player played at a 4.55 level the previous year. If that rating was not manipulated, then a sudden jump from playing 4.55 level tennis to 4.75 level tennis would be very unusual (i.e. not many people go from 4.5/5.0 borderline level to mid-5.0 or better between the end of one season and the start of the next). The easiest way to get strike level match ratings is to play up and win, so I'd recommend that he doesn't play in a 5.0 league, and the risk of DQ for an A-rate is very low.

As for singles vs doubles, I don't think that singles is more risky in terms of strikes unless he is very significantly better at singles. In other words, if he got a 4.55 rating as an average of playing 4.30 level doubles and 4.80 level singles, then he should probably save the singles for sectionals/nationals. But, if he's not some kind of singles hammer who is lost in doubles, then doubles might actually be more risky. The doubles calculation is more complex because there are 4 people to consider in the match ratings, but the partners in a doubles calculation maintain their starting rating differential in their individual match ratings. As an A-rate, your buddy will always be the higher rated partner, so if the rating differential is significant (i.e. he plays with a low-rated 4.5 partner), there is a danger of generating very high ratings because of the differential. In other words, if he is 4.55 and he plays with a 4.05 rated partner and they beat a top 4.5 team (so that their match rating as a team is 4.55 or something like that), your buddy would get a 4.80 match rating and his partner 4.30 to maintain the original 0.50 rating differential. If you're in a league where the higher rated players always play singles and you think you'll face lower rated players in doubles, then I'd recommend that he always has a higher-rated partner so that an anomaly with the rating differential doesn't generate strikes.
The other thing I'd add is that if the player got his 4.55 (or whatever was in appeal range) through normal play, it may be hard for them to get strikes simply because they can continue to play at the level they were and keep their rating around 4.55 and that is below the strike threshold. It is only if they begin to play better than they did the prior year that they become at risk of getting strikes.
 

smithy173

New User
Both knee's replaced left hip replaced USTA will not downgrade me to 3.5.
Played last year first time in a couple of years lost both of my matches level of play was to great for me to move. Looking to appeal again this year I'll be turning 67 this year what are my chances of the appeal going thur.
 

schmke

Legend
Both knee's replaced left hip replaced USTA will not downgrade me to 3.5.
Played last year first time in a couple of years lost both of my matches level of play was to great for me to move. Looking to appeal again this year I'll be turning 67 this year what are my chances of the appeal going thur.
Did you only play two matches? If so, you won't get a new year-end rating and your previous just carries over, unless it is 3 years old then it expires and you self-rate again.
 

Injured Again

Hall of Fame
Both knee's replaced left hip replaced USTA will not downgrade me to 3.5.
Played last year first time in a couple of years lost both of my matches level of play was to great for me to move. Looking to appeal again this year I'll be turning 67 this year what are my chances of the appeal going thur.

I am 63 and 11 months ago, I had a total knee replacement. I asked in a thread here around a year ago about my chances of asking for a medical appeal down and was told it would be unlikely.

I haven’t play USTA league much for a few years, and then only doubles on a 55+ 9.0 team where I think I went something like 1-2 or something like that over a period of three years (even though I was captain). Because my rating had expired, I had to self-rate and the system would not let me self-rate lower than 4.5.

There was a nearby NTRP event a couple of months ago that was apparent a feeder into NTRP nationals. I figured I‘d medically appeal down just for the heck of it to see if I could play it as a 4.0, using the rationale of my recent knee replacement and my age. Surprisingly, my appeal was granted! Unfortunately, I was both injured and traveling until just days before the event so I didn’t play.

I don’t know what the USTA uses to determine if an appeal is accepted. Three years ago, my last year before a cascading series of knee issues that led to the knee replacement, I was 90th nationally in 60’s singles.

I haven’t kept up with the rating systems and don’t understand if singles and doubles are calculated separately and if not, how they each affect a single overall rating. Tournament play is my focus and USTA is for fun only. I’m a much better singles player than doubles player, and as I’ve been asked to join a social team for doubles, a 4.0 rating is probably appropriate. I’m still competitive against 4.5 players of any age in singles, but with only singles on 18+ and 40+ teams, who would want a 63 year old, middling 4.5 to be the one singles spot. So I don’t feel like I’m abusing the system, well, with the exception of the USTA nationals qualifier, but I didn’t think I’d be granted the appeal.

So now I’m an 4.0S. I say give it a try. Good luck!
 

Roforot

Hall of Fame
I am 63 and 11 months ago, I had a total knee replacement. I asked in a thread here around a year ago about my chances of asking for a medical appeal down and was told it would be unlikely.

I haven’t play USTA league much for a few years, and then only doubles on a 55+ 9.0 team where I think I went something like 1-2 or something like that over a period of three years (even though I was captain). Because my rating had expired, I had to self-rate and the system would not let me self-rate lower than 4.5.

There was a nearby NTRP event a couple of months ago that was apparent a feeder into NTRP nationals. I figured I‘d medically appeal down just for the heck of it to see if I could play it as a 4.0, using the rationale of my recent knee replacement and my age. Surprisingly, my appeal was granted! Unfortunately, I was both injured and traveling until just days before the event so I didn’t play.

I don’t know what the USTA uses to determine if an appeal is accepted. Three years ago, my last year before a cascading series of knee issues that led to the knee replacement, I was 90th nationally in 60’s singles.

I haven’t kept up with the rating systems and don’t understand if singles and doubles are calculated separately and if not, how they each affect a single overall rating. Tournament play is my focus and USTA is for fun only. I’m a much better singles player than doubles player, and as I’ve been asked to join a social team for doubles, a 4.0 rating is probably appropriate. I’m still competitive against 4.5 players of any age in singles, but with only singles on 18+ and 40+ teams, who would want a 63 year old, middling 4.5 to be the one singles spot. So I don’t feel like I’m abusing the system, well, with the exception of the USTA nationals qualifier, but I didn’t think I’d be granted the appeal.

So now I’m an 4.0S. I say give it a try. Good luck!
It'd be odd if you struggle at 4.0 doubles but win 4.5 singles in that I don't know if you'd get strikes or captains just not sure what to make of you. Hopefully you stay healthy over 2025.
 

J_R_B

Hall of Fame
The 2025 national rules have been published.


There appears to be a big change in the DQ procedure in that automated appeal rated players (i.e. A-rated) are now NOT subject to dynamic DQ. See rule 3.03E(1)b:

3.03E(1)b A player with a valid NTRP Computer (C) rating or granted an Automatic Appeal (A) rating of a Computer (C) rating is not subject to an NTRP Grievance. Players 60 or over who are promoted and granted an appeal per Reg. 2.05E are also not subject to an NTRP Grievance. Any other player is subject to an NTRP Grievance including players with granted Medical Appeals.

This seems new to me for this year. In the past, I've always thought that A-rated players could be DQ'd, even though it would be extremely rare.
 

ncgator

Rookie
Appeal-rated players could definitely be DQ’d in the past based on experience with someone who was on one of my teams.
 

J_R_B

Hall of Fame
Appeal-rated players could definitely be DQ’d in the past based on experience with someone who was on one of my teams.
Yes, this is the first that I've ever seen anything that says they can't. It seems to be a change for this year (or a typo for this year, you never know with the USTA, LOL).
 

silverwyvern4

Semi-Pro
The 2025 national rules have been published.


There appears to be a big change in the DQ procedure in that automated appeal rated players (i.e. A-rated) are now NOT subject to dynamic DQ. See rule 3.03E(1)b:



This seems new to me for this year. In the past, I've always thought that A-rated players could be DQ'd, even though it would be extremely rare.
Grievances are filed by captains, they aren't automatic
 

schmke

Legend
The 2025 national rules have been published.


There appears to be a big change in the DQ procedure in that automated appeal rated players (i.e. A-rated) are now NOT subject to dynamic DQ. See rule 3.03E(1)b:



This seems new to me for this year. In the past, I've always thought that A-rated players could be DQ'd, even though it would be extremely rare.
I think this is referring only to filing NTRP grievances, not 3-strike DQs.
 

smithy173

New User
can you get bump down after a certain age.Now I'm a 4.0 at 67 years old can I go down to a 3.5 because of my age if I appeal.
 

Injured Again

Hall of Fame
It'd be odd if you struggle at 4.0 doubles but win 4.5 singles in that I don't know if you'd get strikes or captains just not sure what to make of you. Hopefully you stay healthy over 2025.

The only USTA teams I‘ve played on in recent years were the 55+ 9.0 teams that I captained, so the only captain wondering about me is me.

I just don’t have the experience playing doubles to be competent at the movement and teamwork aspects. I tend to also make an inordinate percentage of errors if my first shot is not a serve or return, and if I miss a shot and then don’t hit another shot for a point or two, my miss rate on that next shot is pretty high. I don’t have the unconscious competence that doubles seems to need.
 

schmke

Legend
can you get bump down after a certain age.Now I'm a 4.0 at 67 years old can I go down to a 3.5 because of my age if I appeal.
Yes, although it is no longer documented in the regulations. From the 2024 regs:

2.05E(1)–(5) that described the eligibility criteria for players 60 and older to
appeal their rating down have been removed from the 2024 USTA League
Regulations. The opportunity for these players to appeal their rating has not changed.
The player can appeal their rating with a few clicks, and will receive an immediate
answer, based on the criteria programmed into TennisLink. As such, the specific
criteria are not needed in these regulations.

So just go click the appeal button and see what happens.
 

smithy173

New User
Thanks I have to wait until 2025 to appeal because I tried to appeal earlier this year for medical reasons and was denied.
 

schmke

Legend
Thanks I have to wait until 2025 to appeal because I tried to appeal earlier this year for medical reasons and was denied.
Did you play in 2024 and get a new year-end rating? If so, you should be able to try an auto appeal of that rating on-line right now.
 
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