How do I beat a good serve and volleyer?

X

Xevoius

Semi-Pro
I just lined up a weekly game against one of the top 4 5.5 So Cal players. I needed to put in a good performance so this player wants to continue to hit with me but I got my xxx handed to me tonight. He is a serve and volleyer with a ultra consistent ground game. He is not the best mover so I was able to drag him wide hitting forehands to his two-handed backhand and then either coming to the net or hitting an angled cross-court shot immediately after.

I just can't find the tools to deal with his kickserve to my backhand because he is a highly proficient volleyier/approacher even from the service line. The second I cheat in to take the serve really early he seemed to come up with a hard flat serve out wide to my forehand and it was not pretty. We played in windy conditions which seemed to further accent his game.

The score was 2-6, 0-6, ouch. It was the type of match where every point I won I had to put in 100% effort and then all of a sudden I would lose the next three points in a flash.

He then proceeded to kick my arse at ping pong but that is another story...

Anyways, I think my lobs might have been more effective if the wind was not such an issue and maybe if I play him again I will be able to make him run more. As you can see, I am kinda at a loss. I am almost thinking about practicing his style of play and see how he likes a taste of his own medicine.

Any suggestions?
 
Xevoius,

I played a serve-and-volleyer a couple of days ago in a tournament (we're both good 4.0 players), so I know how you feel. IMO, when a serve-and-volleyer is really on, there is not much you can do at all... and if he also has super consistent baseline game you're pretty much done for :-)

What (nearly) worked for me (I lost in the third set tie-breaker after losing the first set 6-2) was to focus on holding my service games. Since I was having trouble returning his serve (he was putting away easy - and also not so easy - volleys) I decided to take more chances on the return. I was hoping that in one of his service games I would perhaps hit a couple of great returns, he would maybe donate one double fault and I would eventually break him. That's exactly what happened.

If your opponent is not that fast and you can lob well that may also be worth trying.

Good luck!
 
the main thing to improve is your returns: shorter takeback, on the rise, low into his legs. both top and slice.

how to practice that? have a partner serve to you 5 feet from the service line. yes, from there.

that will speed you up no time. I saw a father-coach doing that to his son, the finalist of a recent Canadian tournament and a very good returner and player in general.

his name is Bruno Agostinelli, he's ranked about 13th in Canada and will study on a tennis scholarship at Kentucky U. if you have an occasion to see him, it's really worthwhile, you will see great backhand work.
 
Xevoius. Yes, when a serve-and-volleyer is on, its very tough. My strategy is to try somehow to break the S & V'er's rhythm, or to somehow make him uncomfortable. All often easier said than done, and often risky. Lobbing is one way. Other tactics are staying way back for the service return. Or varying the service return position--one point way in, another point way back.

One tactic that I sometimes have success with, but is very hit-or-miss, is to aggressively come in on every serve, more-or-less blocking the return back as I'm coming in. It's very risky, but if nothing else is working, I figure there's nothing to lose so why not try it. My service return start position is slightly behind the baseline. As the server begins the service motion, I'm bouncing on my toes, stepping slightly forward toward the server. As the server is striking the ball, I attempt to take a step forward at about a 45 degree angle toward the side I think the serve is coming, cutting off and blocking the ball back. If I can get the ball back, it usually rushes the server, putting pressure on him. If I can do this for a couple of balls in a row and win a few points that way, it can sometimes unnerve the server. Actually, when successful, this tactic usually really pisses off the server. I guess its sort of a mano-mano direct challenge to the big server. I can tell you though, if you want to continue playing with this guy, he might not want to play with you if you're successful with this style. My experience is that big servers absolutely hate playing against someone who uses this tactic with any kind of success.
 
Those BLASTED Serve & Volley'ers. They outta be in a different league. The only effective way I've dealt with them - and some might consider this gamesmanship or unethical or something - but it works for me, is to run over their foot in the parking lot before the match. However, if they arrive before I do and they're already in the building, I'm sunk.
 
I second what Marius Hancu said. I will just add:

-- If you want to break his serve, hold yours! This will make him think about YOUR serve at all of HIS service games.

-- Granted, he holds his, you hold yours. At least you play a tiebreaker and in a tiebreaker anything can happen. Even the best serve and volleyer commits errors in pressure situations so drag him to that pressure point!

-- And as Marius suggested you should work on your return of serve situations. Have a partner serve to you from service line T, and then tell him to come behind his serve for volley, you try to pass.
 
A little more info about the block-and-charge tactic against big servers. I believe I first saw it done successfully by a pro who had some tournament success back in the mid to late 70's (I believe) named Brian Teacher. Brian was all about putting pressure on his opponent. He, himself, was a very methodical serve and volleyer. He was relentless and was very, very tough to break. When he played other big servers, he would almost always use the block-and-charge service return tactic to put pressure on the server. He was very good at it. Unfortunately, his career was cut short by injuries.

Another proponent of the block and charge was Paul Annacone. I believe John McEnroe picked up this tactic from Paul, who used to use it against John. There was some later stage in John's career where he used this tactic quite often.
 
If all else fails, take a lot more risk on your returns -- just let loose. Keep the backswing pretty short, but rip it. There are three main places I am my returns in such a situation. 1. Heavy topspin right at the player and at his feet. 2. Sharp cross-court angle, again with heavytopspin. 3. Flatter up the line. Such risk on returns is usually not a good idea. But I think being beaten so bad would be a good case to try it. If you are on, you should really be able to frustrate his game.
 
all of the above were right, how can you got your bud kick pretty bad?????? you didn`t hold your serve.The main focus you have to hold your serve, and work on your return slowly. maybe one of the reason not returning his serve well cause he kept breaking your serve and you lost your concentration and panic .......... who knows, try to hold your serve next time and good luck :)
 
Try giving him short, with no pace once in a while. Junkballs can throw his whole rhythm off and get him thinking.
 
Thanks for all the great advice everyone. So after spraining my ankle during a heavy point of drunken Ping Pong (which he also schooled me in with his world ranking and all) it looks like I am going to have to wait to give some your strategies a try.

Spraining your ankle in Ping Pong is like jamming your thumb in tiddlie winks - pretty embarassing. I also found it strange how all of my buds found out so quickly and proceeded to jump on the horn taking their turn giving me a hard time.

I hope this stupid thing heals within a week.
 
I have 2 regular serve volley tennis buddies,ones a lefty and both of them beat me more than I beat them.My advice is,if possible warm up before your match by hitting with a baseliner for 30 mins and really groove your shots.Practice your returns and make sure you're hitting the ball as cleanly as possible because a good serve volleyer wont give you time to adjust and its all over v quick.Mix up your returns,drift a backhand slice crosscourt to the volleyers feet and when you get a look at the second serve smack it down the line wide of the man at the net.Make him think,most volleyers serve in predictable patterns-kick out wide to backhand being the favorite-lob him.What Mahboob said-hold your serve at all costs ,if he gets some doubts about coming in you will probably be surprised at how quick his game goes down.When in a rally with chance to pass go crosscourt,it makes it harder for the volleyer to change direction and control his shot.Relax,remember you're under pressure to hit a meaningful shot on every single point so dont tense up and dont be afraid to make your opponant wait until you are ready to recieve otherwise the pressure builds on you ,as points are going so quickly.
 
Returns: stress height/depth over pace. Banged returns help a good serve and volleyer. The ball reaches the volleyer not only quicker, but generally HIGHER. Higher is where the volleyer wants to hit every volley from. Quicker and the ball reaches the volleyer sooner, before the returner can recover the center of possible returns. Result the volleyer routines high volleys into an open court. Keeping the return low is most important thing you can do. Try to hit your returns so they bounce along the service line. Your margin for error is smaller because your hitting closer to net height but this can be offset by returning closer to the center over the lowest part of the net. Remember you're not trying to hit around or through the volleyer, you're trying to make him hit his first volley consistently from shoetop height .

Keep the returns down and the S&V volleying up and he can't hit with as much authority. Then build your passes from there.

MK is also correct in putting an emphasis on holding. Consistently holding serve can shift the pressure to your opponent's serve.
 
That's really good advice FiveO. I tend to come in alot myself, and the superb returners who give me trouble are the ones who dip the ball low in front of the service line, get sharp angles, and who can take the pace off the ball, sort of just "drop the ball over the net". The power hitters tend to hit too high over the net, hit out, or make errors trying to pass you.
 
Hmmm, I don't agree with the notion that serve returns with a lot of pace will
"help a good serve volleyer" in any way. I mean the only way it might help the serve/volleyer is if you keep making unforced errors (i.e. hitting out or into the net) in trying to bang the return--thus giving the serve/volleyer an automatic free point.

But if your good enough to hit a fast paced ball against a serve/volleyer,without hitting it out or into the net, BY ALL MEANS DO IT!!! The advantages in doing this are pretty obvious. For one, a fast paced ball down the line makes for a great passing shot against a good serve/volleyer. I mean you start hitting fast paced passing shots down the line he/she is going to really start thinking twice about coming in. If that shot is too difficult to make, then a fast paced return combined with a low trajectory ball spinning towards your opponent's feet also makes for a lethal weapon against any serve/volleyer. Hitting low, fast paced balls directly at your opponent at the net is an effective strategy. In short, like in any shot, faster paced balls give your opponent less time to react, set up and make a clean shot. This clearly works to your advantage against a guy charging the net against you.

The only things that you obviously DO NOT want to do against a good serve/volleyer is:
1)miss the serve !! 2) hit high trajectory shots where a good serve/volleyer (especially a good "tall" serve volleyer) can smash it back to your side of the court 3) hit high trajectory shots that don't a lot of pace on them. I mean even a poor/mediocre serve/volleyer can put those kind of shots away!
 
troytennisbum said:
Hmmm, I don't agree with the notion that serve returns with a lot of pace will
"help a good serve volleyer" in any way. I mean the only way it might help the serve/volleyer is if you keep making unforced errors (i.e. hitting out or into the net) in trying to bang the return--thus giving the serve/volleyer an automatic free point.

But if your good enough to hit a fast paced ball against a serve/volleyer,without hitting it out or into the net, BY ALL MEANS DO IT!!! The advantages in doing this are pretty obvious. For one, a fast paced ball down the line makes for a great passing shot against a good serve/volleyer. I mean you start hitting fast paced passing shots down the line he/she is going to really start thinking twice about coming in. If that shot is too difficult to make, then a fast paced return combined with a low trajectory ball spinning towards your opponent's feet also makes for a lethal weapon against any serve/volleyer. Hitting low, fast paced balls directly at your opponent at the net is an effective strategy. In short, like in any shot, faster paced balls give your opponent less time to react, set up and make a clean shot. This clearly works to your advantage against a guy charging the net against you.

The only things that you obviously DO NOT want to do against a good serve/volleyer is:
1)miss the serve !! 2) hit high trajectory shots where a good serve/volleyer (especially a good "tall" serve volleyer) can smash it back to your side of the court 3) hit high trajectory shots that don't a lot of pace on them. I mean even a poor/mediocre serve/volleyer can put those kind of shots away!
Click to expand...

The question pertained to beating and GOOD s&v player. GOOD s&v are GOOD volleyers. Pace doesn't present as many problems to a GOOD s&v player as does making them hit low, court level volleys.

IF (big if) the returner can CONSISTENTLY hit with pace, down at the incoming volleyer's feet, GREAT! Which is why I said stress height/depth over pace. Depth and height control IS the MOST important factor in playing a s&v. Most recreational players can hit returns hard and deep because alot of players play mainly other baseliners and it is the effective return vs. a baseliner. Most can't hit low with pace consistently. SO for most players it becomes an either or proposition (w/ a little variety thrown in). Keeping the return low is the percentage play against the s&v to keep return percentage high and to keep pressure on the s&v by making him play difficult volleys, more often. Play those same deep to the baseline returns to a GOOD s&v and he will hold w/o much resistance and will feel freer going after his opponent's serve games.

Why would a good s&v player not mind pace on a comfortable height volley? For the most part, with pace comes height. What they/we want is ball contact at or above net height. Pace isn't the problem for GOOD volleyers. Volleying from the shoetops is. Whether at them or by them at the feet is what presents problems.

Consistently banging returns down the line?
A GOOD s&v would welcome anyone trying to hit hard down the line returns all day. First if you're going down the line most likely its because you've been pulled wide by the GOOD serve and volleyer whose first cover IS down the line. Hit hard, the ball is reaching the GOOD volleyer at hip height or higher. The return unless hit perfectly on or near the sideline doesn't force the GOOD volleyer to make a GOOD volley. He only has to make a decent volley into the open court because he's making contact while the returner is at or outside the sideline. Second, it is THE low percentage return, HIGHEST net SHORTEST distance to the baseline, and the shot is OUT the entire distance of flight before it may come down in the court. For the recreational player? Low percentage, lots of return errors.

If anyone can hit their returns hard to the service consistently, GO FOR IT. If on the other hand, your consistency will suffer, stress keeping the ball DOWN at the net rusher's feet, over pace on the return against a s&v. You only win one point for the eye-popping, 100 mph dtl return. But playing that return regularly, may yield 9 errors for every winner.

Good luck.
 
FiveO,
I'm sorry, I don't quite understand a key point to your arguement.
You restated above (your exact words in papragraph 3 above) "For the most part, with pace comes height." This is the core of your arguement, and one that I do not agree with. Let me explain:

Clearly we both agree that hitting high shoulder height balls at a good
serve/volleyer is suicide. This is common sense.
BUTyou are also saying, and making the strange connection that "WITH PACE COMES HEIGHT". Hence your rationale/reason for hitting slower returns.
Where is your evidence for this ??????????? Because it certainly is not
what I have observed playing this game. In fact, in my experience, I have
observed the OPPOSITE trend....that is FASTER, more penetrating groundies (i.e. killer forehands) are usually hit relatively LOWER over the net. Likewise the SLOWER, loopier shots are usually hit HIGHER over the net (I am pretty sure other people on this board who play a lot of tennis have observed the same exact thing).

I would also like to add a few additional points. As has been stated on numerous threads in the past and by numerous experts in tennis, in the pro/college game, the serve/volley style of play is essentialy extinct, especially in the singles game (with perhaps the exception of Taylor Dent). ONE primary reason for this is because of the POWER and PACE in today's ground game. So it seems to me that powerful and fast paced ground strokes is a good way to stop a serve/volleyer.

I would also add that in Brad Gilbert's book "Winning Ugly" he states that a good strategy at beating someone at the net is to hit the ball right at your opponent's body (hence winning ugly !!). I use this strategy all the time against people at the net. But to do this effectively, clearly you need some pace on your shot to cut down the reaction time of your opponent at the net !

Now one point you stated in your last reply may be true. That is IF your opponent
pulls you WIDE off the court by his serve, you may not want to hit down the line because a good serve/volleyer will cover it. But the simple fact is, that in order to hit an effective passing shot ANYWHERE against someone coming to the net, you need PACE on your return !! In that case I would either hit a low ball with pace right at him, and/or try to intercept his serve early on the rise so I wouldn't get pulled wide off the court. But the fact remains..fast, low balls with spin are the the best returns against serve/volleyers. These are the kinds of shots that I train my students to hit when they are
going to go up against a good serve/volleyer. This brings me to my last point....

It is true that hitting lower, faster paced balls over the net (i.e. killer forehands) is hard to do consistently. This does require a lot of skill and it requires you to be a pretty good tennis player (4.0 + ). But this is the level of skill that I think you need to defeat a "good serve/volleyer". The simple fact is whenever your opponent comes to the net against you, you must hit stronger shots that require relatively more skill to win the point....there are
no shortcuts.

eom.
 
I agree with FiveO, a high pace ball will travel further than a slower pace ball, when both ball travel pass over the net, the high pace ball will still be travelling around net height while the slower pace ball will be diving low into the ground, assuming both with topspins. I think thats what FiveO meant by WITH PACE COMES HEIGHT.
Most good players has no problem hitting net height volley, but they do have problem hitting low volley, and even they don`t have problem hitting low volley, they will still have to hit up, which means you will usually have only a shorter, slower pace ball to deal with for the next shot.
 
A fast, penetrating, low trajectory ball will have plenty of spin on it to drive
it into the ground before your opponent will reach it.

I think there are two problems with hitting a slow ball to a good serve/volleyer:
1). If the serve/volleyer is a good all-court player who can also
hit strong groundies, then he/she can simply set up, and put the slow, short
ball away in the corner with a ground stroke. I honesty don't think you should
ever hit a slow,topspin ball that bounces at/around the service line when your opponent is coming forward from the baseline. That kind of shot is essentialy a short ball that can be put away by anyone who can hit good
groundies.
2). If the serve/volleyer is really quick and is able to pull you out wide with the serve, he/she may be able to achieve volley position at the net before your slow return reaches the net and simply put the ball away with an easy volley.
 
troytennisbum, it is not slow ball, it is SLOWER ball comparatively, taking a little bit pace off, putting a little more topspins in.

1) the dipping passing short should be hit when the opponent is setup and at the net by the time the ball is returned back to the net player. If the opponent is a little late to come to the net, a higher pace passing shot is a better choice, or even a dipping crosscourt passing shot should work.

2) If the serve/volleyer pull you out wide and already at the net before you can hit it back, you are probably in big problem no matter how you hit the passing shot, maybe a lob might work once in a while. I would try to take the ball early and hit a DTL passing shot hoping the ball will go by the net-rusher before he can touch it.
 
We'll mucat, I do agree with you that yes you are probably in trouble NO MATTER what if you get pulled out off the court by a good serve/volley player, which is why I also stated above that I too would try to hit the serve early as you would in that particular situation. But I would still go for a more penetrating shot even then. The lob, we'll a good lob would be great, the problem is that hitting effective lobs off of good, fast penetrating, kick serves is very, very hard to do (those kinds of returns against
these kinds of serves usually end up going over the fence).

But, a "slower" ,low trajectory, topspin, return, that lands around the service line is, essentialy, a SHORT BALL! We'll if the serve/volleyer has an all-court game, then he/she will can simply setup, and put the ball away with a groundy (thats what I would do). Remember, the serve/volleyer is already coming IN, forward from the baseline, so he/she will be in the perfect position to do this to this kind of return.

As a coach, I think this topic comes down to the following concept. Effective, topspin ground strokes, including serve-returns, more or less come in two "flavors".
1) Slower paced, high trajectory, high bouncing, Loopier shots, and
2) Fast paced, low trajectory, Penetrating shots.
Now both of these shots have lots of topspin.
So, when you are playing against a baseliner, both of these kinds of shots are effective. BUT, when playing against a serve/volleyer, especially against a good serve/volleyer, you MUST be able to hit the Penetrating, Fast Paced, low trajectory topspin shots. It is true, as FiveO stated in his above post, these kinds of shots are difficult, especially for the intermediate (3.5-) player. BUT, when playing against a good serve/volleyer, there is simply no other way. There is no easy way out.

It is my firm belief that the primary reason why we do not really see serve/volley anymore in the modern singles games (pro/college level) is because players nowdays have become so good at hitting low trajectory, penetrating, FAST paced passing shots.

eom.
 
The best way to beat a serve and volleyer is to hold your serve. Then to get the break i would suggest blocking it back (use a volleying type motion and grip) and then hitting deep topspin to keep him back, or charging the net yourself and giving him a taste of his own medicine. Lobs are also effective though i (being a serve-n-volleyer) is something i dont like doing. You could also hit a very low very topspiny shot that drops right at him when he's a little in front of the service line. Though I wouldnt reccomend it if he's right at the net as it might not drop fast enough. Hope this helps, its how people normally beat me.
 
troytennisbum,

I'll agree, you don't understand. However, ferrari and mucat apparently do. My premise has always been to EMPHASIZE low over pace against a s&v. I NEVER advocated eliminating pace. If a player can't do both he should then hit with enough control to get the ball down. I have kept typing "low" and you insist on adding an 's'.

Your premise. Interesting, albiet confusing.
On one hand you argue the extinction of s&v. Then, you state outright, that the high-tech equipped, mid-level NTRP, power baseliner has to do something exceptional, perhaps out of his realm, hit risky, low percentage, low clearance, hard returns against a s&v or he's going to lose. As if the equally rated baseliner has to "play up" a 1/2 level or so, just to stay with the s&v. And, if he can't, "there are no shortcuts".

Your theory appears to advocate attempting clean return passes by repetitively hitting net hugging screamers as a some kind of "strategy". Returns seem to be treated as "one and done" passes and you slip in and out of describing them as such. *I wonder what kind of return percentage that approach will yield for the average player. Unfortunately, a lot of mid-level NTRP players, unfamiliar with s&v opponents and the kind of pressure they apply, fall into this, and end up contributing to their own demise. Missing more returns than they make and their makes end up deep and into the volleyers comfort zone. Either way they end up holding the short end of that "strategy" stick. IMO the premise makes an ill advised leap in assuming a given mid-level NTRP player can hit with high velocity, little or no net clearance, while getting the ball down and still achieve good return percentages. Big leap. And what if they can't?

Citing your description that mid-level NTRP apparently is out of options. He can continue missing/netting returns and/or reaching the volleyer at a comfortable volley height while going for outright winners, and what, HOPE to get “HOT”? To paraphrase: If they can't hit your return they're gonna lose.
Your words: "...there's simply no other way..."(?)

Really.

I'll disagree.

Good players neutralize, if not create immediate offensive opportunies off returns, while maintaining a high level of return consistency, using the strokes they OWN and do not over-reach to attempt Gonzo style returns. The percentage way to attack a s&v off the return is to create combination passes. First, neutralize or make defensive the incoming volleyer with a low return, putting the net in HIS way. When you've made the server, volley up, trying to solve the geometry problem you've presented him with, you are much closer to being in the driver's seat if not belted into an OFFENSIVE position (inside the baseline/contact at or above the net) on the next or even third ball. When you achieve that offensive position it IS the time to go for the high percentage pass. Again, hitting with enough control to ensure depth control on the return, does NOT mean hitting slow. How? Shortening up the stroke/positioning and hitting sooner, adding topspin, blocking, slicing, etc.. There are many more than "two flavors" to choose from. But get the return down consistently. Could a player throw in a few "one-timer" returns throughout the course of a match? In appropriate point/game situations, or when flat defensive on a return? Yes. Even an infrequent missed return can have a desirable effect on the s&v. But, can a mid-level NTRP player continuously bang successful, low-clearance returns against a s&v? That answer should be obvious. And, should high paced net skimmers consistitute the bulk of return attempts against an equal 'rated' s&v on any level. NO. Unless, the returner isn't concerned with consistently applying pressure and winning.

*BTW Gilbert advocates making every return.

IMO to advocate an approach which is likely to result in a bad return percentage, is equally bad advice.

Good luck.
 
rip or block to his backhand (as it is usually the weaker stroke otherwise to his forehand) and then odds are you get a weak shot that you can attack or go to the net
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

K
How do you beat a guy
Replies
21
Views
3K
@wright
@wright
V
Returning a Lefty Serve and volleyer advantage side
Replies
11
Views
1K
LeeD
L
K
tatic against a good serve volleyer
Replies
20
Views
2K
Cervantes
Cervantes
G
Playing a giant of a serve and volleyer
Replies
6
Views
1K
newnuse
N
D
Lost 6-0, 6-1 to a Serve and Volleyer, Help?
Replies
27
Views
2K
BreakPoint
BreakPoint
Back
Top