how do i execute different serves from same toss?

[palikero]

i was watching a video of federer's different serves and he doesn't seem to change his toss regardless of what type of serve he does (flat, kick, slice).

MY Question is How can you perform different serves without changing toss styles??

thanks for feedback

 

[Rickson]

i was watching a video of federer's different serves and he doesn't seem to change his toss regardless of what type of serve he does (flat, kick, slice).

MY Question is How can you perform different serves without changing toss styles??

thanks for feedback

Use a different swing path.

 

[FiveO]

Most first serves: flat, slice and topspin, can be hit off a single toss. It is "easier" to slice a serve off a ball tossed further to one's right but what is gained in ease of execution is lost in lack of disguise. What dictates direction and type of spin on the serve is a product of swing path and contact point. That's where the descriptions of the face of the ball and the clock-face come into play. The direction of the swing and its path through a contact point on the ball not only dictate what type of spin the ball leaves with but it's direction toward the service box (down the T, wide or into the body). Learning those controls (path and contact point) off one basic toss will increase one's effectiveness on the serve. By developing the ability to do so, one prevents "telegraphing" their intent. Fed uses a very similar toss with very little variance, if any, on first serves, as did the master of disguise, Sampras. Sampras serve practice is legendary in that his coach could pick serve type and direction for Pete after the toss and Pete would be able to hit it via swing path and contact point. Path and contact are what allows these serves to change direction and spin w/o giving it away by toss placement.

Second serves hit with more topspin are tossed further behind a "side on net" body line of the server. The tosses are LESS out in front of the baseline than first serves, but still out in front. This is true for both Fed and Sampras. It facilitates the kicker, which to me is the American Twist serve but does not preclude hitting topspin or safer topspin slice. Again path and contact dictates type of spin and direction.

 

[Kaptain Karl]

When I was a Jr -- about a thousand years ago -- one of my adult friends and former Instructors suggested I use the same toss for all my serves. I thought he was *nuts*. But I love a challenge, so I tried it.

It (finally) worked for me. Now I even have trouble *demonstrating* the "standard" Kick toss

1 - Can you already hit a variety of serves ... using different tosses? (I think this helps.)

2 - Do you have the fortitude to watch your serves ALL get worse before they get better? (I promise this will happen.)

3 - Can you commit to yourself that you will spend hours and hours -- baskets and baskets -- practicing your new serves? (Otherwise, forget the whole idea.)

I am right-handed and use only three basic serves: Slice, Kick & Flat. I used to toss ALL my tosses in such a manner that they promoted my S&V style. (They would all land about a full stride into the court, if I allowed them to bounce.) I tossed my Slice out to the racket side of my Flat ... and my Kick toss just a bit behind my head -- and still forward into the court. (Some people toss WAY back of their heads for Topspin or Kick serves. I would think adjusting this toss to a uniform-for-all-serves toss would be more difficult.) Oh yes ... I also (already) used an extreme EB grip for all my serves.

It took lots of practice, but I now hit all serves from a toss just about where my Flat toss used to be. I really think my EB grip is a big contributor to my success with this.

What serves are you now hitting? Where are your current tosses? Are you "up for the challenge?"

P.S. - I have been reminded -- even by respected posters here on TW -- that only few people can manage this. (I'd guess only a little more than 5% of players can do this.) If it is not working, you are still in (large) good company.

- KK

 

[palikero]

THANKS FOR ALL THE FEED BACK, GUYS..

To Kaptain Karl,

1) I can already hit a flat and topspin serve using different tosses.

2) I can stand the fact that things will get worse (a lot worse) before they get better

3)I practice almost daily so practice time is not an issue.

I use something between an Eastern Backhand grip and Continental grip for sevice.
My toss for flat serve is about 8 inches in front and 6 inches to the right.
My toss for topspin serve is about over my head.

THanks, I dont feel as worried knowing that most people don't know how to do this. THough I'd like to add it to my arsenal.

Also, thanks to FiveO for the advice

 

[TennsDog]

The only serve I hit that I find necessary to move my toss to hit effectively is the twist serve. The slice can gain an extra bite if you move the toss right, but it isn't essential to do so. Pretty much find the place where you can hit a great topspin serve, then move the toss just a very little bit right (assuming righty). That way, you can still hit the topspin serve, as it has not moved too far from your prefered location, and the slice and flat will become easier to hit as well. It will not (for any non-tennis god) be possible to hit a great serve of any type from the same location. It will always compromise effectiveness for disguise. Practice, obviously, is also key in becoming proficient in hitting multiple serve types from the same toss.

 

[FiveO]

...My toss for flat serve is about 8 inches in front and 6 inches to the right.
My toss for topspin serve is about over my head...

For first serves you may want to adjust the toss a little. Firstly, a little further out in front of the baseline say 12-18" forward. Depending on what you mean by "6 inches to the right" (it's hard to tell without seeing it) I would probably move it in a bit. You'll probably be better off getting the toss more toward the inside of your hitting shoulder. Reason is that your at contact with full extension the hitting shoulder should rotate almost directly over the toss shoulder and the hitting arm should be very near pure vertical. Tossing out to the side will cause you to swing out to the side and lose the upward extension you want on the serve and the ability to drive more forward on flatter serves.

Second serves can be hit about 8" or so in front and aligned almost over your head. They're different tosses but not that different.

 

[Kaptain Karl]

FiveO's clarification (#7) is excellent. Good luck with it....

- KK

 

[Bungalo Bill]

For first serves you may want to adjust the toss a little. Firstly, a little further out in front of the baseline say 12-18" forward. Depending on what you mean by "6 inches to the right" (it's hard to tell without seeing it) I would probably move it in a bit. You'll probably be better off getting the toss more toward the inside of your hitting shoulder. Reason is that your at contact with full extension the hitting shoulder should rotate almost directly over the toss shoulder and the hitting arm should be very near pure vertical. Tossing out to the side will cause you to swing out to the side and lose the upward extension you want on the serve and the ability to drive more forward on flatter serves.

Second serves can be hit about 8" or so in front and aligned almost over your head. They're different tosses but not that different.

Good advice FiveO

 

[kevhen]

I agree, if you want a toss for all 3 serves, you would want to toss it over your right shoulder and a little in front. Too much overhead and you won't get full power and too far to the right or too far in front and you won't be able to hit it with topspin.

I use the same toss for slice and flat and then mostly just use an undisguised over the head topspin toss when going wide on the ad court to my opponent's backhand. I also move farther left along the baseline so there is no disquise at all but alot of people still make errors when dealing with heavy topspin on their backhand returns.

If you want one toss for all 3 then you serve will probably get worse before it gets better, but then with enough persistence, ultimately you will have a nasty unpredictable serve to deal with. Good luck.

 

[TennsDog]

I only question the necessity for a disguise on shots, particularly serves, at the most common levels of play. I cannot imagine that any level of play below division 1 or 2 college level (over or maybe including 4.5) would really need to actually put focus on disguising shots. I can see stuff like how you step or other obvious giveaways, but toss location is not something that most people will pick up on as long as it is at least in the same area (obviously, a twist toss will always look different than a slice toss). How many people here actually observe your opponents trends in ball toss on serve (or other aspects of other shots) to know what to expect is coming?

 

[kevhen]

Of course you read your opponent's ball toss to anticipate where his serve is going even at 4.0-4.5 level. Most people don't have big serves but it's nice to be in position early for a good return. My old 3.5 doubles partner could disguise his toss and serve well and hit to either corner for aces against me when he was on.

 

[tennisaddict1]

well. my coach told me to tilt my continental grip a little to the left so that the raquet is facing in. This way you get more spin and pace. When I tried this I found that I could toss the ball in the same place and hit slice, flat, and kick.
Hope this helps.

 

[Bagumbawalla]

In SOME ways the serve is like a sidways groundstroke. So let's look at the groundstroke for a second.

The ball bounces up to your comfort zone on (say) the backhand side, right where you like it.

You can slice the ball, put various degrees of topspin on it, pull your racket and create sidespin-- all from hitting a ball in almost exactly the same spot.

In each case what you did is imagine the effect you wanted to create with the ball and imagined the path the racket would have to take through the ball to create that effect.

That is similar to what you have to do with a serve.

Though the preparation for the serve may vary somewhat, you try to "disguise" that (like a poker player) by creating as few "tells" as possible.

At first your toss and preparation may give away your serve, eventually, as you hone your skills, you will be able to create surprises because the opponent will not be able to prepare for his return.

Good luck-- lots of good advice, above.

 

[Tennis_Monk]

I am asking a rather dumb question here. please bear with me.

for more upcoming rec players developing their serves, they dont even know where their serve lands (if it does land). So how can the opponent telegraph?

at higher levels i understand opponents could zero in a on a pattern if one exists. but at lower levels i am not so sure.

 

[Bagumbawalla]

TM

Obviously there is a level of play where skill/technique/form/consistamsy are nonexistant. They do not not lknow what they are doing, so they are hard/unpleasant to play with- event to ralley.

If you get two players of that type together-- trying to rally-- you have a disaster. A skilled player might, however, be able to pick up on something and, at least have a better chance of tracking down where the ball might land and keep the ball in play so the novice can get some feel for the game.

But all that is almost beside the point. That kind of tennis needs serious work of a different kind than this thread is geared to.

After a certain level, when you get to the point where you can begin to control the ball-- at that turning point, almost all your movements are as clear as sign language is to the deaf-- to an experienced player.

To progress beyond that point requires not only more skills, but more subtlity in preventing others from reading your intentions, and the, aboe answers touched on that quite well.

So, your question is not dumb, it is just not very relevant, because you would never really need to "read" the serve of a player who is that bad.

 

[Tennis_Monk]

TM

Obviously there is a level of play where skill/technique/form/consistamsy are nonexistant. They do not not lknow what they are doing, so they are hard/unpleasant to play with- event to ralley.

If you get two players of that type together-- trying to rally-- you have a disaster. A skilled player might, however, be able to pick up on something and, at least have a better chance of tracking down where the ball might land and keep the ball in play so the novice can get some feel for the game.

But all that is almost beside the point. That kind of tennis needs serious work of a different kind than this thread is geared to.

After a certain level, when you get to the point where you can begin to control the ball-- at that turning point, almost all your movements are as clear as sign language is to the deaf-- to an experienced player.

To progress beyond that point requires not only more skills, but more subtlity in preventing others from reading your intentions, and the, aboe answers touched on that quite well.

So, your question is not dumb, it is just not very relevant, because you would never really need to "read" the serve of a player who is that bad.

I dont neccesarily think that all 3.5/4.0/4.5 have best serves. They can range from best to worse just like anything else. Not really sure of the level we are discussing.

I am not referring to bad servers. i am referring to people with good serving technique but probably dont decide on the shot until after the toss.

I am considered big server but there are times i just dont think. i just toss and rip the racquet. 70% of times it lands in and significant %age of them are winners. Frankly i have no clue where it will land (except inside the service box). So i am not so sure what an opponent would telegraph.

 

[Bungalo Bill]

In SOME ways the serve is like a sidways groundstroke. So let's look at the groundstroke for a second.

The ball bounces up to your comfort zone on (say) the backhand side, right where you like it.

You can slice the ball, put various degrees of topspin on it, pull your racket and create sidespin-- all from hitting a ball in almost exactly the same spot.

In each case what you did is imagine the effect you wanted to create with the ball and imagined the path the racket would have to take through the ball to create that effect.

That is similar to what you have to do with a serve.

Though the preparation for the serve may vary somewhat, you try to "disguise" that (like a poker player) by creating as few "tells" as possible.

At first your toss and preparation may give away your serve, eventually, as you hone your skills, you will be able to create surprises because the opponent will not be able to prepare for his return.

Good luck-- lots of good advice, above.

Geez, what are you saying here and who are you advising.

At the levels most of us are, just hitting the serve in on a consistent basis is hard enough.

Use the tosses prescribed for each serve. If you hit a twist serve, use the toss for the twist serve. If you want to hit a topspin serve, use the darn topspin toss. The returner will have a hard enough time returning a well placed kicking serve with pace to run your play.

A server should focus on spin, placement, pop, and consistent more then disguising their toss. This will cause players even at high levels fits trying to return it.

 

[tennisaddict1]

hey bungalo bill what if Im really good at tossing the ball and hitting all the serves. I want to disguise my serves now. (specifically slice just for now)(my kick Im still working on my toss. sometimes it kicks othertimes it just speeds forward) i usually throw out to the side my serve goes in most of the time really high pace but my opponent always seem to get it. (I try to vary it with my flat and slice)

oh and How do you put the ball in three differnt places. My slice is always to the right. My flat is always in the middle. My kick is also usually in the middle.

 

[tennisaddict1]

i meant slice when i start"i usually throw...

 

[Bagumbawalla]

TM

The topic of this thread is how to hit different serves using the same basic motion.

That implies (to me) that we are talking about a level of play where the player has control over the type of serve and the placement of serve, but is now, striving for some "disguies". Obviously you would not need to disguise your serve if have no control over where you hit it and the opponent has enough trouble hitting it anyway.

So, possibly your question belongs in its own thread where it would get more specific/to-the-point-responses.

Sorry that I mis-interpreted your question and was not able to help you.

 

[Tennis_Monk]

TM

The topic of this thread is how to hit different serves using the same basic motion.

That implies (to me) that we are talking about a level of play where the player has control over the type of serve and the placement of serve, but is now, striving for some "disguies". Obviously you would not need to disguise your serve if have no control over where you hit it and the opponent has enough trouble hitting it anyway.

So, possibly your question belongs in its own thread where it would get more specific/to-the-point-responses.

Sorry that I mis-interpreted your question and was not able to help you.

No big deal. You probably are right anyway.
I am actually trying to see how one would telegraph something that even the originator has NO control over. May be i will post it as a seperate thread at a later date.
Fortunately (or unfortunately depending on one's view point) most people i play against dont have great consistent serves.however they have dangerous serves and when they get in they are so freaking tough. very dfficult to read. tryin to see if i can get some insights.

 

[Tennismastery]

Not sure if any of the posts addressed this, but the issue of changing the typ of serve from a similar toss, is to change your position under the ball after the toss. This does not mean to move your feet. The pros will lean more under a toss to create a topspin or kick serve. For a hard slice or hybrid serve the pro will stay a little to the left of the toss so the action of the side spin of the slice can be accented. However, You can hit a hard slice serve from a similar toss as a kick. You CAN'T hit a kick or topspin serve, however, from a toss out away from you (ie: slice), it is physically impossible.

Hope this helps clarify this question.

 

[Nellie]

^^^
This is really interesting comment.

Does this mean that, for disguise, the toss should be more in front and centered and not to the side?

 

[Tennismastery]

^^^
This is really interesting comment.

Does this mean that, for disguise, the toss should be more in front and centered and not to the side?

Generally speaking yes. Anything to the side is going to be a slice or a hard flatter serve. But, few opponents are that keyed into a player's toss (unless it is really obvious!) to be able to know exactly what serve might be coming, nor where they might be hitting it. A slice serve can be hit down the T and out wide. The only advantage is to know the type of serve coming a fraction of a moment earlier...which, of course is helpful.

I would recommend a player learn to hit the different serves from a racquet path standpoint, then tighten the toss pattern up as he advances. Players who are usually concerned with telegraphing their serve because of their toss might be thinking way too much about this part and not enough about playing the point.

My opinion, anyway!

 

[Bungalo Bill]

hey bungalo bill what if Im really good at tossing the ball and hitting all the serves. I want to disguise my serves now. (specifically slice just for now)(my kick Im still working on my toss. sometimes it kicks othertimes it just speeds forward) i usually throw out to the side my serve goes in most of the time really high pace but my opponent always seem to get it. (I try to vary it with my flat and slice)

Absolutely, you can practice hitting the various serves you have learned with a near common toss.

However, always keep in mind it is more important to be consistent with your serves, be able to place your serves, and be able to hit your serves at various speeds (including with power), then it is to vary the toss.

If you have a real good serve, it will be difficult to return no matter where you toss.

oh and How do you put the ball in three differnt places. My slice is always to the right. My flat is always in the middle. My kick is also usually in the middle.

Here are some tips:

1. Relax your arm and wrist. The wrist provides very little power in a serve. The motion that provides this power is called wrist pronation. What this basically means is that the wrist snaps downward when it contacts the ball. Pronation will occur naturally if your arm and wrist are very relaxed. Snapping the wrist not only adds power to the serve, but it adds more consistency and control. When you serve, you hit the toss when it reaches its peak. If you did not snap your wrist downward, the ball would go long more often. By pronating your wrist, you can more easily hit the ball into the box.

2. You need to have a fluid service motion. I view the service motion as an energy chain. The energy starts at your feet, and your motion adds more energy until you release the energy when you hit the ball. If you have a choppy service motion, your energy will not compound like a chain. You will lose all of the energy from previous parts of the motion. Try and keep your motion very fluid. Your arms and legs should not stop moving until the service motion is complete.

3. Jump into the court. A large portion of the power in a serve comes from the legs. Your legs allow you to throw your entire body weight into the serve thus greatly increasing its speed. If you use just your arm, then you are missing out on plenty of energy that is generated by your legs. Jumping allows you to also hit the ball at a higher height. This means that you will have an easier time hitting the ball into the box.

4. Line up your body with your target. By lining up your body, you should have your shoulder facing the service box. When you hit your serve, your body weight will be moving towards the service box. This will increase the speed of your serve, its consistency, and its accuracy.

5. Last but not least, practice your serve. The serve requires precise timing and technique. You cannot expect yourself to have a great serve unless you put in the practice time. Go to your local courts once a week with a hopper of balls, and just practice serves. You will notice that after practicing your serve it will be more powerful, more accurate, and more consistent.

Finally, always remember the serve sets up the play you are trying to run. Do not hit blindly into the service box and then be surprised with the reply. When you are serving study your opponent and what they like to do with various serves. Think three shots ahead. Use the serve to start the point and gain the advantage for the tactics you want to run.

 

[tennisaddict1]

thanks Bungalo Bill

 

[Bungalo Bill]

thanks Bungalo Bill

YOU'RE WELCOME!