How do I get my former service rhythm back?

zill

Legend
I had some rhythm only a year ago but have lost it. I know it’s inside of me. How do I get it back?

This was my serve when I had the rhythm.

 

zill

Legend
Can rhythm change suddenly with no reason?
I suspect it’s the 20kg weight gain. That’s significant enough to slow things down.
Lol

Am working hard to get that off FYI. First or second priority now, after the serve which I hope is a quick fix.
 

zill

Legend
Which one(s) of the main parameters do you think you’ve lost? Pace, spin, placement.

Mainly Pace. And unsurprisingly lack of drop here is the issue again below. But unlike my 1bh I know I can drop in the serve, not perfectly but much better than below. See vid in OP.

 

Dragy

Legend
I think I have figured out something. Couldn't before but now it feels better. Will try again when on court. But good suggestion.
I like how Ian of Essential Tennis makes people shadow swing, than toss the ball and shadow swing without hitting it. That’s a way how you can first adjust the rhythm and swing (well if you know what you are doing or are supervised), and then bring your toss into that swing and rhythm smoothly.
 

zill

Legend
I like how Ian of Essential Tennis makes people shadow swing, than toss the ball and shadow swing without hitting it. That’s a way how you can first adjust the rhythm and swing (well if you know what you are doing or are supervised), and then bring your toss into that swing and rhythm smoothly.

Do you think it works for groundstrokes as well?
 

SystemicAnomaly

Bionic Poster
Have you tried a half serve motion (see Jeff Salzenstein) to see if you can find your rhythm / timing? It looks like you employ a semi-pendulum -- somewhere between a full pendulum and a simpler abbreviated motion.

Perhaps a simpler abbreviated motion motion might help. Jeff Salzenstein uses that for his "full" motion serve. Felix AA has a great one. Taylor Fritz and Carlos Alcaraz also come to mind.

For a simpler motion, think of getting your elbow into place sooner with a 90° bend. As it is now, your elbow stays low for a while and your elbow angle starts quite large. You don't get it to 90° til you reached your trophy phase. This might make the trophy / drop rhythm somewhat trickier. Maybe not.

Looks like you move you R foot too far to the R for your PP stance. This might make your hips open too early or too much. Instead, bring your R foot alongside your L foot (more or less).
 

ballmachineguy

Hall of Fame
You used to load much better. In the old pic you kept left arm up longer and exploded more. This kept you from opening too early which (the opening up early) is now exacerbated by the new foot placement.
In short, you are now just kinda rolling through your serve motion instead of setting up to crack it.
 
Last edited:

johnmccabe

Hall of Fame
Agreed 100%.

note @johnmccabe if your advice is good, I will listen.
Two rhythm related things to try. Reduce the time lag in hitting hand. Have the right hand start to go towards trophy position earlier to allow more gradual acceleration. Tune the toss height to allow quicker unloading of the legs, and hopefully slightly deeper knee bend. The longer you stay in max knee bent, the less likely you'll be able to bend deeper. Coming out of the knee bend quickly is most important.

To increase the racquet drop, you need to forget about pace for a couple of months. It can be harder to fix than you think. Likely need to take the full progression of shadow swing, toss/swing without striking the ball, serve from service line, then back to baseline. If you can't acheive enough racquet drop in shadow swing, then it's mechanics but not a problem of coordination. The racquet drop problem seems like because you rushed to chase pace without getting the basic motion correct in the early days.

Overall it looks to me you're hard muscling the arm to squeeze out as much racquet head speed as possible, but aging of the body is making it harder and harder. The rhythm related things are easier to implement with relatively smaller benefit. The racquet drop can be harder to fix with greater benefit.

My guess is you'll agree with less than 10% of all these.
 

zill

Legend
Two rhythm related things to try. Reduce the time lag in hitting hand. Have the right hand start to go towards trophy position earlier to allow more gradual acceleration. Tune the toss height to allow quicker unloading of the legs, and hopefully slightly deeper knee bend. The longer you stay in max knee bent, the less likely you'll be able to bend deeper. Coming out of the knee bend quickly is most important.

It can be harder to fix than you think. Likely need to take the full progression of shadow swing, toss/swing without striking the ball, serve from service line, then back to baseline. If you can't acheive enough racquet drop in shadow swing, then it's mechanics but not a problem of coordination. The racquet drop problem seems like because you rushed to chase pace without getting the basic motion correct in the early days.

Overall it looks to me you're hard muscling the arm to squeeze out as much racquet head speed as possible, but aging of the body is making it harder and harder. The rhythm related things are easier to implement with relatively smaller benefit. The racquet drop can be harder to fix with greater benefit.

My guess is you'll agree with less than 10% of all these.


I agree with most of this actually. The only thing I disagree with is this:

To increase the racquet drop, you need to forget about pace for a couple of months.


Maybe forget about maximum pace for a few months but if the drop is right then pace should come easily. If pace is not there then most likely drop is not there either.
 

zill

Legend
Have you tried a half serve motion (see Jeff Salzenstein) to see if you can find your rhythm / timing? It looks like you employ a semi-pendulum -- somewhere between a full pendulum and a simpler abbreviated motion.

Perhaps a simpler abbreviated motion motion might help. Jeff Salzenstein uses that for his "full" motion serve. Felix AA has a great one. Taylor Fritz and Carlos Alcaraz also come to mind.

For a simpler motion, think of getting your elbow into place sooner with a 90° bend. As it is now, your elbow stays low for a while and your elbow angle starts quite large. You don't get it to 90° til you reached your trophy phase. This might make the trophy / drop rhythm somewhat trickier. Maybe not.

Looks like you move you R foot too far to the R for your PP stance. This might make your hips open too early or too much. Instead, bring your R foot alongside your L foot (more or less).
I guess my advice was no good?

It's good. I am not a fan of half motion serves because of my quick lightning bolt action which must be done in sequence (hence full motion) without breaks. And my action is already compact.

But I am taking a lot of inspiration on my overhead technique here which is like a half motion serve. Key I think is to keep the racquet close to my body eg keeping it compact.

Pretty happy with my overheads that day.

 

SystemicAnomaly

Bionic Poster
It's good. I am not a fan of half motion serves because of my quick lightning bolt action which must be done in sequence (hence full motion) without breaks. And my action is already compact.

But I am taking a lot of inspiration on my overhead technique here which is like a half motion serve. Key I think is to keep the racquet close to my body eg keeping it compact.

Pretty happy with my overheads that day.

Had suggested the half-motion serve motion more as a stepping stone to the modern abbreviated motion of Felix, Carlos, Taylor F, Jeff S, etc. These serves incorporate an earlier elbow prep than your pseudo-compact motion. Your lower initial elbow position with the large elbow angle (much later than 90°) prior to the trophy could, possibly make timing / rhythm less consistent, less repeatable.

Not a fan of the extreme R foot position for the PP either. Opens up the hips too early & too much I think.
 

dlam

Semi-Pro
playing basketball today and practicing jump shots
Lost my rhythm, but after few practice shots I found it
I found my stance was getting to wide for my jumper and I was getting unstable in the air and fighting my balance when I was in the air
I went back to narrow stance ( pin point) with rhythm
I was rushing my shot
Taking my time set up with my feet first
when I feel the same in tennis , I tend to shuffle my feet and find my jump step again by dancing around at the baseline when Im preparing to serve
 

fuzz nation

G.O.A.T.
Do you think it works for groundstrokes as well?
Yes.

While one of the majors was running on TV some years ago, a camera-person caught some footage of Federer waiting in a tunnel/corridor on standby for a match out on a stadium court. He was doing some forehand and backhand ghost strokes and one of the talking heads briefly mentioned how that's a useful technique for keeping your tempo dialed in.

After rebuilding the fundamentals of my golf game a few years prior, I had a fresh appreciation for the value of proper tempo in so many things we do in so many sports. The ghost strokes that Fed used before hitting the court reminded me of how critical the "right" tempo is for any of us when hitting a serve and I've become a big fan of using full speed practice motions (without hitting a ball) to help with finding the feel for our own best serving tempo.

I think that our pal @Dragy is right on with this idea. If you're out there with a bucket and hitting some practice serves, perform one or two practice motions between each actual serve, at least when you're starting out. That should help you to feel whether your timing is off when you try to actually hit a ball. After settling into that practice session, I think it's smart to continue to revisit your practice motion - maybe after every three or four serves - to stay in touch with that best tempo.

After watching your serving video up top, the thing I spotted immediately was how you let your racquet drop below your waist when you toss the ball. That can create timing problems (even for the pros). You're leaving your racquet a long way from being ready to swing with only the hang time of your toss to get your entire swing set up and executed. If your toss gets slightly lower than usual or your windup gets delayed by even a tiny fraction of a second, that can easily force you to rush the racquet up to the ball before your windup is done. That destroys our serving tempo.

I'd say experiment with taking the racquet straight back when you start into your windup instead of letting it drop toward the ground. It will absolutely feel weird at first, but it should get your racquet to its ready position with less delay and make your swing easier to initiate without a rush to the ball. If you can't make that work at all, I'd say simply experiment with starting your windup and wait with your toss until slightly later in that progression. Toss later so that you can get more of your windup done. In either case, it should make your swing/release to contact more smooth and effortless.
 

zill

Legend
After watching your serving video up top, the thing I spotted immediately was how you let your racquet drop below your waist when you toss the ball. That can create timing problems (even for the pros). You're leaving your racquet a long way from being ready to swing with only the hang time of your toss to get your entire swing set up and executed. If your toss gets slightly lower than usual or your windup gets delayed by even a tiny fraction of a second, that can easily force you to rush the racquet up to the ball before your windup is done. That destroys our serving tempo.

I'd say experiment with taking the racquet straight back when you start into your windup instead of letting it drop toward the ground. It will absolutely feel weird at first, but it should get your racquet to its ready position with less delay and make your swing easier to initiate without a rush to the ball. If you can't make that work at all, I'd say simply experiment with starting your windup and wait with your toss until slightly later in that progression. Toss later so that you can get more of your windup done. In either case, it should make your swing/release to contact more smooth and effortless.


I agree.
 

Digital Atheist

Hall of Fame
I am not a fan of half motion serves because of my quick lightning bolt action which must be done in sequence (hence full motion) without breaks.
Imo all good serves require a sequence, and everyone can and should learn to hit a half serve. It could even be argued that with the fast motion, starting the racquet in the power position makes it easier to coordinate all the other body parts without rushing the arm. Also, do you know how much your ball toss drops into contact? Anyway .....

It's odd that your drop used to be better. I like the loose grip suggestion - try re-gripping as the racquet enters the trophy position or better yet, start in the PP and immediately regrip as the racquet moves into trophy after the toss release.

It is hard to do an analysis due to the different angles, but I'll try.
AP1GczPJXQs4G0_j-BwYaZnMP41NijaE3VBx3ondod3m_io6q7zDcwc5C07FKM_m_EEHjPAvp4yLb6CSPuXxuyF6GgG4Y4fde7Y9gDF_Kk5LjSToxvqwWPU1hh_4uBaDf_ujyrpyei-r--KPttbRs1n7c4nY=w714-h509-s-no-gm

In your old serve your hand (and therefore forearm) go back and down and behind your head slightly from a more "classic" trophy position, and that helps promote the deeper drop. In the first frame above the racquet is still slighty on your right side, which is good.

AP1GczMmIxWJmD7OTl5xbgtNJBVS9KwM8YBkvQjKDfIqppr__IQOsfpnCF8hE-gziLmrQklq_70c5U6rxOSthFQySlPPHJoWLUT5597ScuNhpy14XHp-usnChljd9MABjzYX3PrK1vAO4Ym7LDan3KuxZdW-=w655-h460-s-no-gm

In the new serve your "trophy" position is the first frame (back foot has landed and is about to push) is much more like Kyrgios, and is far away from your head. The racquet needs to play a lot of catchup to make that extreme position work. You bring your hand up closer to your head but it never goes back, and it never enters a position slightly behind the head like your old serve, which is what allowed for a decent drop. It looks like you have tried to keep the swing entirely on your right side and that has resulted in the bypassing of a crucial part of the motion, possibly so you can get to the ball in time. That last part is conjecture! This is the position you don't get to (hand slightly behind the head and also below the ear).
AP1GczPIKqMDfmG5ELLqnKrZEUOvcFwPzTGjI14E_QUfapspG8Ybjs8mKyUp-gJae3H7g0Jv-ZpVojaZaBJ2D1o9B8NqY6qTW1LcqcW_z4aoFztaOU1ToBPeKqf2bqTj9O8FEchDcMiZZ9UyEhBekkThILuQ=w245-h294-s-no-gm


You aren't going to like this, but my advice now is to definitely do the experiment and start from a half serve with the racquet somewhere nearer your ear but still on the hitting side like the first frame of your old serve - then timing the movement of the hand/racquet back/behind your head with leg drive. You dont need to do hundreds, but hit 15 or 20 and see what happens to the RD. Some shadow swings of that precise movement beforehand and during might also prove beneficial.

You're leaving your racquet a long way from being ready to swing with only the hang time of your toss to get your entire swing set up and executed.
+1. Zill is a big fan of the lightning bolt serve and I believe that is how this issue has developed.

Zill, sInce you don't like half serves, if you wont do them please try @fuzz nation's advice of cutting out part of the backswing, which will also hopefully get the racquet closer to your head when leg drive is ready.

Also, as mentioned your old pinpoint stance was better and you do step past now with some early opening. Good luck!
 
Last edited:

zill

Legend
+1. Zill is a big fan of the lightning bolt serve and I believe that is how this issue has developed.

It's the only motion I can do with power behind the ball. From memory you prefer a more static motion.


Zill, sInce you don't like half serves,

My half motions are overheads! Because my service motion is already compact enough. Which leads to the next point.



Even with my overheads you can see that I keep it dynamic (moving) never static like some who just set up in the trophy and wait statically for the ball to come down. I only set up my trophy when ball is very close to coming down to my strike zone so that everything is moving in sequence before striking the ball.


if you wont do them please try @fuzz nation's advice of cutting out part of the backswing, which will also hopefully get the racquet closer to your head when leg drive is ready.

Yes, I think that is exactly my problem from doing shadow swings. Will try it today.
 

zill

Legend
AP1GczMmIxWJmD7OTl5xbgtNJBVS9KwM8YBkvQjKDfIqppr__IQOsfpnCF8hE-gziLmrQklq_70c5U6rxOSthFQySlPPHJoWLUT5597ScuNhpy14XHp-usnChljd9MABjzYX3PrK1vAO4Ym7LDan3KuxZdW-=w655-h460-s-no-gm

In the new serve your "trophy" position is the first frame (back foot has landed and is about to push) is much more like Kyrgios, and is far away from your head. The racquet needs to play a lot of catchup to make that extreme position work. You bring your hand up closer to your head but it never goes back, and it never enters a position slightly behind the head like your old serve, which is what allowed for a decent drop. It looks like you have tried to keep the swing entirely on your right side and that has resulted in the bypassing of a crucial part of the motion, possibly so you can get to the ball in time. That last part is conjecture! This is the position you don't get to (hand slightly behind the head and also below the ear).

I think my trophy position is actually the second frame from the left. Like Kyrgios and other lightning bolt servers I get in and out of trophy very quickly. In the first frame I am pausing briefly to allow the rest of my body to catch up before getting in and out of trophy in a continuous motion.
 

user92626

G.O.A.T.
Can rhythm change suddenly with no reason?
I suspect it’s the 20kg weight gain. That’s significant enough to slow things down.
Really? Did zill really put on 20kg ? That's too much for any knees.

I'm working hard to drop some weight also. I run funny.
 

Dragy

Legend
I think my trophy position is actually the second frame from the left. Like Kyrgios and other lightning bolt servers I get in and out of trophy very quickly. In the first frame I am pausing briefly to allow the rest of my body to catch up before getting in and out of trophy in a continuous motion.
Trophy position is usually associated with the moment of lowest load — you can see by when your head starts moving up. First frame has lower head than second one, so can conclude the uncoil already begun.
 

zill

Legend
Trophy position is usually associated with the moment of lowest load — you can see by when your head starts moving up. First frame has lower head than second one, so can conclude the uncoil already begun.
Something is off then as that first pic definitely should not be trophy.
 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
Trophy position is usually associated with the moment of lowest load — you can see by when your head starts moving up. First frame has lower head than second one, so can conclude the uncoil already begun.
He doesn’t have a big take back. Do you think it’s the toss being too low maybe?
 

zill

Legend
He doesn’t have a big take back. Do you think it’s the toss being too low maybe?

Not big but should be even a smaller takeback.

Timing off, toss off as well.

Basically I worked hard to find my action then stopped practicing it for 3 years (focused on other things) and then had a two months break recently from tennis which is the straw that broke the camel’s back. Serve now completely deteriorated.

But I know this action is my action. Only action that suits me. I think just a matter of practice to get it back.
 

Dragy

Legend
Something is off then as that first pic definitely should not be trophy.
I personally made myself get the elbow all the way back stretching my pec as a “point of transition” from coiling to uncoiling. Like Rublev or maybe Roddick and many others. You kind of accentuate that “elbow the enemy”, then with it almost bouncing back you go for your swing (and altogether with leg drive, no separation). It helps me, and I immediately feel if my toss is too low/off.

But you definitely should go with “just practice” — but expect it to get like 95% there in one dedicated session, or you need to review the video and clean up the flaws.
 

Dragy

Legend
He doesn’t have a big take back. Do you think it’s the toss being too low maybe?
Maybe, I really believe the idea of shadow swinging near to the tossed ball. It makes it all so obvious, and you can work your way towards perfect toss height and timing.

It kind of makes you see how your “smooth and well timed swing” happens after the ball dropped almost on top on your head. Or opposite — when the ball is still high in the air. Or wrong spot. Then you just put effort into moving the toss towards the proper location.
 

mental midget

Hall of Fame
i find it helpful to not worry about the full windup or lower body. just stand at the line, loose arm, slow down swing a lot, and practice feeling the weight of the racket (swing like it weighs 5 lbs instead of 12 oz), making good contact, following all the way through. gradually re-introduce your full 'kinetic chain' as your contact improves.
 

nyta2

Legend
Maybe forget about maximum pace for a few months but if the drop is right then pace should come easily. If pace is not there then most likely drop is not there either.
i'd go further, and not even focus on hitting the ball in the box... at least that's what helped me switch lagging my hitting hand...
(had to avoid matches for a few weeks/months, and transition back to match play was with weaker that usual folks and/or with understanding partners that were patient with my doubles)
 

zill

Legend
i'd go further, and not even focus on hitting the ball in the box... at least that's what helped me switch lagging my hitting hand...
(had to avoid matches for a few weeks/months, and transition back to match play was with weaker that usual folks and/or with understanding partners that were patient with my doubles)
Or just bang it against the wall.
 

nyta2

Legend
Or just bang it against the wall.
hmm... i'd prefer to do it on the court... cuz once i got it right (lots of tweaks to my serve), suddenly i was albe to get way more spin... so i want to do see the curve through the air, bounce direction, and lastly to see if "one bouncing" it to the back fence, and how high...
 
Top