How do you "coach" NTRP 4.5+ players in matches? What does Federer get "coached" on?

[FedererExpress]

I'm a very analytical player, and am curious what "coaching" strategies you use for higher caliber players. In my limited experience, at the lower levels, <4.5, there are typically glaring fundamental flaws in stroke mechanics, court positioning, or basic game strategy that you can "coach" and remind players.

However, at the higher levels, 4.5+ I feel the players are fundamentally sound and their court strategy is better. At the higher level, many times I find that winning is not just ground and pound strategy, but sometimes you have to make your opponent "uncomfortable" by working the angles/giving them different looks. How do you coach a player at that high of a level in a productive/effective manner? Personally, I've found that it's almost impossible to coach at that level. I find what's more effective, is to observe their weakness in a match, practice it outside/replicate it in practice, and build the player's skillset so they can handle the situation better in the future.

Eg: If my player is playing an opponent that has difficulty hitting short low slices, I obviously would tell my player to slice low balls. However, if my player cannot hit the short low slice effectively, where do you go from there? This is a shot typically never practiced?

Or let's say, I think my player should hit sharper cross court, and then attack the short ball down the line; however, my player is not confident or cannot effectively transition in on the short ball, how do you "coach" that in a match?

Sorry, I'm having a very difficult time verbalizing what I'm trying to say. Essentially, a very "strong" fundamentally sound player is struggling in match. How do you "coach" them when you want them to do things that are not typical/they are not confident in?

Hope that makes sense, lmk what your experiences are!

 

[FedererExpress]

Another great example: I'm watching this match:

How do you "coach" either player?

 

[mcs1970]

A former player talking in great detail about this topic:

http://www.playtopotential.com/audio/18

 

[Bender]

I dunno about fedr, but I now know what ralph gets coached on (courtesy of the GPPD board on TTW):

 

[Deleted member 23235]

I'm a very analytical player, and am curious what "coaching" strategies you use for higher caliber players. In my limited experience, at the lower levels, <4.5, there are typically glaring fundamental flaws in stroke mechanics, court positioning, or basic game strategy that you can "coach" and remind players.

However, at the higher levels, 4.5+ I feel the players are fundamentally sound and their court strategy is better. At the higher level, many times I find that winning is not just ground and pound strategy, but sometimes you have to make your opponent "uncomfortable" by working the angles/giving them different looks. How do you coach a player at that high of a level in a productive/effective manner? Personally, I've found that it's almost impossible to coach at that level. I find what's more effective, is to observe their weakness in a match, practice it outside/replicate it in practice, and build the player's skillset so they can handle the situation better in the future.

Eg: If my player is playing an opponent that has difficulty hitting short low slices, I obviously would tell my player to slice low balls. However, if my player cannot hit the short low slice effectively, where do you go from there? This is a shot typically never practiced?

Or let's say, I think my player should hit sharper cross court, and then attack the short ball down the line; however, my player is not confident or cannot effectively transition in on the short ball, how do you "coach" that in a match?

Sorry, I'm having a very difficult time verbalizing what I'm trying to say. Essentially, a very "strong" fundamentally sound player is struggling in match. How do you "coach" them when you want them to do things that are not typical/they are not confident in?

Hope that makes sense, lmk what your experiences are!

IMO, the job of a coach for high level folks (at least what i'd want in a coach):
* point out obvious technical flaws/tweaks-for-improvement and/or ways to improve a fundamental (eg. serve, or running fh, etc...)
* point out obvious tactical flaws (ie. should have come in on a certain ball)
* recognize my favorite/strongest pattern plays (based on my unique strenghts/weaknesses)
* recognize my opponents favorite/weakest pattern plays
* guide me to avoid his favorite/strongest pattern; gravitate to my strongest pattern vs. my opponent's weakest pattern
* recognize when my opponent is adjusting (ie. when i need to slightly switch gears)
* offcourt: take data from match(es), and strengthen strengths and shore up weaknesses; add tools

and i think this is where it mandatory to have a coach that has played at a high level (at least to the level you're aspiring to, even if they no longer can play at a high level)... because they will recognize "deeper" patterns of play... (taking into account: tension of a given point, or psychology build up of the last few points, conditions of play, etc...)

 

[Enga]

I think being coached at the highest levels, its important that both the player and coach develop an understanding of each other beyond simply tennis. Not saying they have to become the greatest buds, but the coach has to understand the player's game, their goals, and the player has to be able to trust that the coach isn't some simple fool with empty words. I also think a coach needs to learn to let things be, because yes, at the top of the game a player can be playing their best already with hardly anything that can be helped.

TBH on a day to day basis, I think a coaches job has a lot to do with making sure things go smoothly in practice and in the worst times, keeping morale up. I don't think a coach with crazy ideas and all new approaches from day 1 is gonna make it far with a top level player. But its hard not to share all the ideas you have, so some of the best coaches have to be really patient. The player will only listen when they're ready.

This is an individual sport, and I don't really see what the point would be in a coach trying to dominate a player's mind and playstyle, when they're the one on court and need to be able to make decisions for their own self. And honestly, if you're a coach, the best person to coach is someone who can think for their self, because someone who expects you to tell them what to do in a sport like tennis? Already has very little chance to win vs the best IMO. They should already know what they want, and its the coaches job to throw in perspective, and extra brainpower into the thought process. Other than that, the coach just has to work crazy hard to make sure the player can just focus on the game, and not have distractions.

From personal experience, nothing pisses me off more than a coach who won't shut up from day 1, offering little perspective other than "do what I want you to do, little puppet".

Anyway, that's my best guess. Probably would be my approach.

 

[FedererExpress]

Thanks for the replies so far! I'll try to think about what you guys said.

Another great example, is the recent "on court" coaching you see in the WTA. I find it HILARIOUS that most of the time, it's just the player being pissed/yelling at their coach and the coach goes "you are doing great! Keep your head in the game! etc etc" I don't see that many "technical/strategy based coaching in match.

 

[ChaelAZ]

In my experience, I see the top players being coached on very specific technical improvements, but more so on patterns and play for specific match-ups. Last year I watched Sam Querry win a match and he immediately went to the practice court with a coach. He had thrown the winning ball up to my son so we followed him over to get it signed. No one else was around watching so we were right next to him and the coach, and they were drilling two specific play patterns for him to use in the next match. It was funny at one point because Sam said, "Now why am I doing this and when again", and the coach went over his opponents MO for serve patterns. Was great to see that kind of insight.

I also had the opportunity to be right behind Djokvic, and I was floored at how much technical discussion they were having on improving the drop position of his racquet on his backhand. You think, Djo has a very solid 2HBH, but even the smallest improvements can help them get a bit of competitive edge.

I have a few players I know that compete in Pro Circuit events and when asked the only things I usually comment on is energy levels and how they compete, and a lot about positioning. Just things I see having known them for so long.

 

[TimeToPlaySets]

I have seen 5.0+ and ATP videos where the guy should clearly be going into the net, but instead he stands waiting at baseline.

 

[MarinaHighTennis]

I've started getting coaching recently with a NCAA coach (whos giving me his spare time haha) and it works wonders. He would watch me play a match, find my weaknesses and shore up those weaknesses so the next time I play it won't happen again and I cant be picked on.

With coaching, my backhand (huge liability) improved tremendously and especially my match mentality in being patient to set up the perfect ball or being able to do the just enough to win for good decision making and efficient play. I just became an all-round stable player and getting better with each lesson & drill.

 

[Limpinhitter]

Another great example: I'm watching this match:

How do you "coach" either player?

In the first 3 minutes, both players exhibit technique and tactical issues that can be worked on. Are you looking for specifics?

 

[chatt_town]

I'm a very analytical player, and am curious what "coaching" strategies you use for higher caliber players. In my limited experience, at the lower levels, <4.5, there are typically glaring fundamental flaws in stroke mechanics, court positioning, or basic game strategy that you can "coach" and remind players.

However, at the higher levels, 4.5+ I feel the players are fundamentally sound and their court strategy is better. At the higher level, many times I find that winning is not just ground and pound strategy, but sometimes you have to make your opponent "uncomfortable" by working the angles/giving them different looks. How do you coach a player at that high of a level in a productive/effective manner? Personally, I've found that it's almost impossible to coach at that level. I find what's more effective, is to observe their weakness in a match, practice it outside/replicate it in practice, and build the player's skillset so they can handle the situation better in the future.

Eg: If my player is playing an opponent that has difficulty hitting short low slices, I obviously would tell my player to slice low balls. However, if my player cannot hit the short low slice effectively, where do you go from there? This is a shot typically never practiced?

Or let's say, I think my player should hit sharper cross court, and then attack the short ball down the line; however, my player is not confident or cannot effectively transition in on the short ball, how do you "coach" that in a match?

Sorry, I'm having a very difficult time verbalizing what I'm trying to say. Essentially, a very "strong" fundamentally sound player is struggling in match. How do you "coach" them when you want them to do things that are not typical/they are not confident in?

Hope that makes sense, lmk what your experiences are!

Well this is refreshing to see....someone that actually is trying to coach and not just working on a person's strengths. I generally don't have respect for a lot of coaches for various reasons. Many just take people's money and teach them to hit the shots they already know how to hit better. If I were coaching I'd note the issue and then at the next practice that is what they would work on. If they don't want to work on it then stop coaching them. To me that is what a real coach does. There is a female coach in atl that if you want do or work on what she is trying to teach you, she gets rid of the students because she says the students are a reflection of her. I think any coach worth a damn would adopt the same philosophy or something close to it if the student is out playing tourneys or/and league matches. Think about it like this. Why would I come to you for lessons if I'm beating the hell out of your student.

 

[FedererExpress]

I've started getting coaching recently with a NCAA coach (whos giving me his spare time haha) and it works wonders. He would watch me play a match, find my weaknesses and shore up those weaknesses so the next time I play it won't happen again and I cant be picked on.

With coaching, my backhand (huge liability) improved tremendously and especially my match mentality in being patient to set up the perfect ball or being able to do the just enough to win for good decision making and efficient play. I just became an all-round stable player and getting better with each lesson & drill.

I agree, that's the easy way to approach it. Find their weakness in matches, replicate in practice then improve. But what do you do in an "in match" situation. I mention this because the WTA allows on coaching now, and I think it's HILARIOUS that all the coaching that goes on is the player pissed/yelling at the coach, and the coach saying, it'll be ok! You are doing great!! etc." How do you coach within a match when your player cannot execute what you think is important?

- seems more like emotional coaching then strategy point play?

In the first 3 minutes, both players exhibit technique and tactical issues that can be worked on. Are you looking for specifics?

Yes, would love your insight. Also what would you suggest in terms of tactical issues? These guys are 5.0+ players to a certain extent, I feel like you can't tell them to "just hit cross court more, and deeper?" I'm sure at certain times, the shot they get back is because that's the best they can do? It's not like they are "doing it on purpose..." or are they? I don't know, would love to see what you think.

Well this is refreshing to see....someone that actually is trying to coach and not just working on a person's strengths. I generally don't have respect for a lot of coaches for various reasons. Many just take people's money and teach them to hit the shots they already know how to hit better. If I were coaching I'd note the issue and then at the next practice that is what they would work on. If they don't want to work on it then stop coaching them. To me that is what a real coach does. There is a female coach in atl that if you want do or work on what she is trying to teach you, she gets rid of the students because she says the students are a reflection of her. I think any coach worth a damn would adopt the same philosophy or something close to it if the student is out playing tourneys or/and league matches. Think about it like this. Why would I come to you for lessons if I'm beating the hell out of your student.

Yes, unfortunately, I think a lot of coaches have a ton to offer, but most are pretty burnt out at that higher level, hence the lackadaisical approach. I agree, working things in practice is the way to go, but during a match, what would you tell players who's struggling with consistency or inability to execute basic shots?

 

[Bender]

Coach to Bouchard: If you lose this match, don't worry, you're hotter than most other girls so there's always a modelling career to fall back on.

 

[chatt_town]

I agree, that's the easy way to approach it. Find their weakness in matches, replicate in practice then improve. But what do you do in an "in match" situation. I mention this because the WTA allows on coaching now, and I think it's HILARIOUS that all the coaching that goes on is the player pissed/yelling at the coach, and the coach saying, it'll be ok! You are doing great!! etc." How do you coach within a match when your player cannot execute what you think is important?

- seems more like emotional coaching then strategy point play?



Yes, would love your insight. Also what would you suggest in terms of tactical issues? These guys are 5.0+ players to a certain extent, I feel like you can't tell them to "just hit cross court more, and deeper?" I'm sure at certain times, the shot they get back is because that's the best they can do? It's not like they are "doing it on purpose..." or are they? I don't know, would love to see what you think




Yes, unfortunately, I think a lot of coaches have a ton to offer, but most are pretty burnt out at that higher level, hence the lackadaisical approach. I agree, working things in practice is the way to go, but during a match, what would you tell players who's struggling with consistency or inability to execute basic shots?

Depends on how bad they are missing...I'd tell them to for example return to the T and at least get the point started if they are missing a truck load of returns. That's for singles... of course. I remember Fed even saying the very first job is to get the return back into play...that doesn't mean the return needs to pin the server in a corner...it doesn't mean get it to his backhand...it means get it into play. A lot can happen if you just return the serve. I've told the story a few times of a guy acing me 19 times in two sets and me beating him 1 and 2 in a final. That happened after me watching Aggasi get aced like 56 times one match and beating a guy. I learned then that you have to keep working to get the serve back. As far as being consistent...I'd tell him not to aim so close to the lines and make the guy play.

 

[MarinaHighTennis]

I agree, that's the easy way to approach it. Find their weakness in matches, replicate in practice then improve. But what do you do in an "in match" situation. I mention this because the WTA allows on coaching now, and I think it's HILARIOUS that all the coaching that goes on is the player pissed/yelling at the coach, and the coach saying, it'll be ok! You are doing great!! etc." How do you coach within a match when your player cannot execute what you think is important?

- seems more like emotional coaching then strategy point play?

you find the others player's strengths & weaknesses and go about the question: "now what are you gonna do about it?" or what happens if you do this, how will they respond? A cool way of seeing this is if you watch the tennis anime "Baby Steps" the kid is very analytical and is problem solving his way to winning matches (nerd who gets obsessed w/ playing tennis and tries winning on intellect & prac to make up for his lack of initial physical build). Good series, he ends up going pro.

if my student is pissed & crying to me like that, I'll have no sympathy and I'm gonna say is "get better"

 

[golden chicken]

As a player, I think I would like a coach to point out things that I don't have the mental capacity to notice in the middle of the point/set/match and to give a scouting report so we can formulate a plan ahead of time.

For example, if the opponent has trouble with my kick serve to the forehand on the ad side, I'd want someone to point it out because I probably wouldn't notice in the middle of the match. Or, if the opponent tries to pass crosscourt from the backhand side 90% of the time, again, I'd want someone to point it out sooner if possible.

Stuff like that.

 

[ByakuFubuki]

I dunno about fedr, but I now know what ralph gets coached on (courtesy of the GPPD board on TTW):

Cool, but it reminds me a little bit of the Tennis Tips & Instructions mentality. Like, "If you play an attacking game you may have fun or feel cool, but bunting the ball back with no purpose will win you everything up to the professional level" yet I don't remember any of the members here making it that far, the next best thing being adding a little topspin to the ball.

What Rafa is missing here is the next step, where after winning three matches with a certain strategy, if you lose the next one, you blame it all on your previous tactic and find a new, revolutionary one like "If I hit a little flatter and angled more, but still refused to adapt to my opponent/situation, I'm sure they'll be less comfortable with the timing and footwork and this will win me every match to come".

So, can we say current World #1 and 16 Slams holder is falling just a little bit short of the TT&I greatness?

IMO, the job of a coach for high level folks (at least what i'd want in a coach):
* point out obvious technical flaws/tweaks-for-improvement and/or ways to improve a fundamental (eg. serve, or running fh, etc...)
* point out obvious tactical flaws (ie. should have come in on a certain ball)
* recognize my favorite/strongest pattern plays (based on my unique strenghts/weaknesses)
* recognize my opponents favorite/weakest pattern plays
* guide me to avoid his favorite/strongest pattern; gravitate to my strongest pattern vs. my opponent's weakest pattern
* recognize when my opponent is adjusting (ie. when i need to slightly switch gears)
* offcourt: take data from match(es), and strengthen strengths and shore up weaknesses; add tools

and i think this is where it mandatory to have a coach that has played at a high level (at least to the level you're aspiring to, even if they no longer can play at a high level)... because they will recognize "deeper" patterns of play... (taking into account: tension of a given point, or psychology build up of the last few points, conditions of play, etc...)

Take out the last point and that's basically what my first coach does.

A little bittersweet, considering my level probably gravitates around 0.5 with some glorious peaks at 1.5 occasionally...

Thanks for the replies so far! I'll try to think about what you guys said.

Another great example, is the recent "on court" coaching you see in the WTA. I find it HILARIOUS that most of the time, it's just the player being pissed/yelling at their coach and the coach goes "you are doing great! Keep your head in the game! etc etc" I don't see that many "technical/strategy based coaching in match.

Well, sometimes I do hear some more tactical adivce, although it's generally simple stuff like "Try being more aggressive, because even if you're not making many unforced errors she's attacking every short ball" or "You don't need to take so much risk from the baseline, because she won't attack you anyway".

That said, although I certainly can't do much more than guessing what happens behind the scenes in a Pro match -see my self-rated level some lines above-, I think maybe sometimes the best thing a Coach can do during a match is giving the player a nervous outpot and/or some encouragement. You know, sometimes you're playing the match the right way but losing regardless because you're too tense and/or overthinking. Of course, an encouragement will only do so much for you, but in this situation it's probably better than fixating the player's mind in a specific pattern. Just my two cents.

you find the others player's strengths & weaknesses and go about the question: "now what are you gonna do about it?" or what happens if you do this, how will they respond? A cool way of seeing this is if you watch the tennis anime "Baby Steps" the kid is very analytical and is problem solving his way to winning matches (nerd who gets obsessed w/ playing tennis and tries winning on intellect & prac to make up for his lack of initial physical build). Good series, he ends up going pro.

if my student is pissed & crying to me like that, I'll have no sympathy and I'm gonna say is "get better"

Never heard of this Baby Steps. Sounds nice, the protagonist seems relatable -for once-, except I wouldn't make it to pro even if I started playing at 3. Guess I'll check it out if I ever find some free time. I tried watching Prince of Tennis, but gave it up after like three episodes.

 

[MarinaHighTennis]

It's free to watch on crunchyroll and no ads! I actually learned a lot watching from it haha

 

[ChaelAZ]

I have a few players I know that compete in Pro Circuit events and when asked the only things I usually comment on is energy levels and how they compete, and a lot about positioning. Just things I see having known them for so long.

Timely to say the least. The Surprise $25k is going on this weekend so got to see some girls I know. One is a player who her and my son were with a program for years, so when she is in town playing I get a chance to hang with at matches. Met up with her Monday and we sat and talked for a bit. Like most young players (she is 17) there is a LARGE portion of matches that is dealing with emotion and mental toughness. She has not been playing much since losing confidence this last year, so we just kinda talked about expectations and how it ties to performance. Technically, she is a solid performer, like most the girls there. So it is more than the physical and technical things.

I am no pro coach, mind you, but this is a reoccurring theme with young players I hit with and know, even up now with some of them playing college level. So my input is always about what things a player can control and learn to control. I had just posted this again since HS teams are back practicing:

The background story is, at the college I work at outside the football coaches office is a sign that said, "Expect to win". I went to talk to the coach about it because I COMPLETELY disagree with that sentiment. It isn't that you don't want to win as a goal, but that is NOT something you control - it is merely a result. I try to teach players (and myself) that the things I can control are:

• How prepared I get for practice and matches
• My effort in practice and matches
• And continuing to compete the best I can

Even with all of that done, the result of winning or losing has too many other variables to make my attitude and thoughts hinge on if I will win or lose. If that is the focus, I find when a player is losing they tend to have worse mental and emotional battles than if they are focused on giving effort and competing. Fact is, I have had plenty of losses that I walked away from feeling really good about because I played well, but just got beat. That is much better than the losses were I am still thinking I should have done more.

Anyway, makes sense on court when we talk at least.

 

[Bluefan75]

It's like the old Bobby Knight quote about the "will to win": "The key is not the will to win. Everybody has that. It is the will to prepare to win that is important."