How do you compare the WTF to Slams??

BGod

G.O.A.T.
An undefeated champions winning 5 matches gets 1,500 points. So in this sense it's certainly worth more than a Masters in terms of rankings. All matches are Bo3 however and many past champions won the tournament with 4 match wins.

At 4 match wins, that's a 250 tournament requirement (and many lower ranked players need 5 to win one).

The biggest sticking point for supporters is how you're looking at the Top 8-10 players on the year, HOWEVER that doesn't necessarily mean they're in that form come that time if most of their points came say, before the USO hard court season for example. Furthermore from a Slam Quarter onwards you're typically facing a Top 10 opponent in a Bo5. So you need to win 9 sets as oppose to 8 sets (in a 4-1 WTF champion). This is my sticking point as I think that's where the WTF credibility breaks down.

The point totals serve more of a guarantee for top players to bring up their gap for the following season and to justify sponsorships and ticket prices for the event. With lame duck matches the tournament itself without Bo5 for the last two rounds appears as a glorified exhibition and 3 prize money matches.

I have come to rate Indian Wells and Miami ahead of the WTF in terms of a player's resume. Winning 6 rounds where most of the Top 10 players participate in at least 1 of the 2 is a greater performance than winning 4 matches at the WTF.

So if I have to make a comparison I'd say making a Slam Final is above the level of a WTF champion. Yes some players luck out with a draw to make a Final but the same happens with the WTF in RR play and who your SF opponent is. Upsets are more common in Bo3 tournaments with top players losing early than at the Slams. But most importantly in recent times the victories of Davydenko (who made two final appearances), Dimitrov and Zverev confirm that it's easier to win a WTF than making a Slam Final.
 
Its lost some of its prestige since the 80s and 90s. Its nearly as comparable now as it was before and more top players were truly gunning for it.

1996 and 1999 for instance. That was "do or die time" between Sampras/Agassi and Sampras/Becker with that level of play. Now its more of a year end exhibition money grab
 
I think almost every year I contend the format should be changed more to what the Grand Slam Cup was.

I think it needs to be 12 players with 4 getting a BYE and 1st two rounds are Bo3 while SF-F are Bo5. That makes it's way more legitimate and then I think you even gain from tickets because you no longer have lame duck RR matches.
 
Slam win > Yec win (undef. or with 1 loss) > slam final

Have to beat top 10 players only to win the YEC.

None of the YEC wins were close to being as weak as some of the slam final runs - Lewis 83, Washington 96, Clement 01, schuettler 03 etc.

ATP points wise as well : 1500 and 1300 (yec undef. And YEC with 1 loss) > 1200 (slam final)
 
None of the YEC wins were close to being as weak as some of the slam final runs - Lewis 83, Washington 96, Clement 01, schuettler 03 etc.

The argument is however about the rate of difficulty.

Corretja essentially beat Rusedski-Costa in RR then Sampras-Moya.
Hewitt 01 beats Agassi, Rafter, Grosjean then Ferrero and again Grosjean. Keep in mind Rafter is playing his last matches and loses then all.
Hewitt 02 beats Safin-Costa then Federer-Ferrero, now what needs to be mentioned is all 3 of his pre-final wins were in 3 full sets so in a Bo5 format who the hell knows.
Nalbandian beats Coria-Ljubicic then Davydenko and the epic against Federer where Roger had apparently injured his ankle (still epic match)
Dimitrov beats Busta-Thiem-Goffin then Sock and Goffin again.
Zverev beats Cilic-Isner then Federer-Djokovic, impressive on paper with those last two but in reality the Roger win isn't and Novak had lost to Khachanov in Paris.


So yeah, you could say on name recognition none of those are below some of the runs you mention but the reality is Slams require 3 sets to win the match. Chris Lewis in 1983 won three 5 set matches. Those 3 matches ALONE took more time than any 4 matches for WTF outside a 5 set final like Corretja, Nalbandian and Hewitt had. Now I also think the Dimitrov run is powerfully weak. The best player in this on that surface is clearly Goffin who he gets twice. And I'm sorry but 4 sets against Goffin isn't worth more than a quarter and semifinal match of an open draw because those guys making it that far deserve some respect.

And frankly Lewis against Curren, Washington again Henman-Martin, Clement against Kafelnikov-Grosjean and Schuettler against Nalbandian-Roddick aren't clearly below some of the above especially given some of those names being in the WTF runs!

The RR matches can be VERY iffy and why I really think it downgrades the tournament because what is an 0-2 player really going to bring? He's getting the PAY CHEQUE ANYWAY!!! So you can legitimately argue in some of these cases the guy who won the WTF basically played 3 contentious Bo3 matches or 2 and 1 Bo5 in those earlier cases, but we're talking present-day.

Specifically also with beating a guy twice like Dimitrov had Goffin and Hewitt with Grosjean. Is it a plus or a takeaway? One could argue it's like getting a tasty semifinal match-up twice.
 
The argument is however about the rate of difficulty.

Corretja essentially beat Rusedski-Costa in RR then Sampras-Moya.
Hewitt 01 beats Agassi, Rafter, Grosjean then Ferrero and again Grosjean. Keep in mind Rafter is playing his last matches and loses then all.
Hewitt 02 beats Safin-Costa then Federer-Ferrero, now what needs to be mentioned is all 3 of his pre-final wins were in 3 full sets so in a Bo5 format who the hell knows.
Nalbandian beats Coria-Ljubicic then Davydenko and the epic against Federer where Roger had apparently injured his ankle (still epic match)
Dimitrov beats Busta-Thiem-Goffin then Sock and Goffin again.
Zverev beats Cilic-Isner then Federer-Djokovic, impressive on paper with those last two but in reality the Roger win isn't and Novak had lost to Khachanov in Paris.


So yeah, you could say on name recognition none of those are below some of the runs you mention but the reality is Slams require 3 sets to win the match. Chris Lewis in 1983 won three 5 set matches. Those 3 matches ALONE took more time than any 4 matches for WTF outside a 5 set final like Corretja, Nalbandian and Hewitt had. Now I also think the Dimitrov run is powerfully weak. The best player in this on that surface is clearly Goffin who he gets twice. And I'm sorry but 4 sets against Goffin isn't worth more than a quarter and semifinal match of an open draw because those guys making it that far deserve some respect.

And frankly Lewis against Curren, Washington again Henman-Martin, Clement against Kafelnikov-Grosjean and Schuettler against Nalbandian-Roddick aren't clearly below some of the above especially given some of those names being in the WTF runs!

The RR matches can be VERY iffy and why I really think it downgrades the tournament because what is an 0-2 player really going to bring? He's getting the PAY CHEQUE ANYWAY!!! So you can legitimately argue in some of these cases the guy who won the WTF basically played 3 contentious Bo3 matches or 2 and 1 Bo5 in those earlier cases, but we're talking present-day.

Specifically also with beating a guy twice like Dimitrov had Goffin and Hewitt with Grosjean. Is it a plus or a takeaway? One could argue it's like getting a tasty semifinal match-up twice.

That’s one of the worst mental mathematics I’ve ever seen :))) Look at this year’s AO open and tell me how difficult it was for Rafa to reach the final, and Nole to win it. Just say you don’t like Bo3 and be done with it, why torture us with this nonsense?
 
there are WTFs that were more difficult to win than certain slams but it's also harder to just get hot and win a slam due to the format.

WTFs are clearly the 5th biggest event to me, and 4th when AO wasn't a real slam.
 
WTF can't be compared to IW, or Rome imo as it only has 8 players (most of whom are burnt out by the end of the season) and we get winners like Dimitrov and Zverev as a result. In no way can a Round-Robin format (whereby you can lose 2/3 of your singles matches, make it to the SF depending on other results in your section, then end up winning it with only 3 match wins and 2 losses) compare with knock-out tennis at M1000 level.

It's the same on the WTA, Radwanska won the WTA Finals in 2016 (or was it 2015?) with a 3-2 W/L record and her opponent in the final Kvitová had a 2-3 W/L record (that's losing *more* matches than winning and ending up in the final). It's ridiculous.
 
WTF can't be compared to IW, or Rome imo as it only has 8 players (most of whom are burnt out by the end of the season) and we get winners like Dimitrov and Zverev as a result. In no way can a Round-Robin format (whereby you can lose 2/3 of your singles matches, make it to the SF depending on other results in your section, then end up winning it with only 3 match wins and 2 losses) compare with knock-out tennis at M1000 level.

It's the same on the WTA, Radwanska won the WTA Finals in 2016 (or was it 2015?) with a 3-2 W/L record and her opponent in the final Kvitová had a 2-3 W/L record (that's losing *more* matches than winning and ending up in the final). It's ridiculous.
I'd caution against using the outcomes of an event in some of the weakest fields ever as a proxy for its historical significance.

The problem with the WTF right now isn't that guys are burned out, it's that Thiem, Nishikori, Cilic and co. are regulars with no prime ATG. Obviously the likes of Zverev and Dimitrov can sneak through and win given that.

It's possible to win a masters without facing anyone playing well, that's usually pretty hard to do to win WTF even today. Zverev's WTF win was much more impressive than any of his masters wins.
 
I'd caution against using the outcomes of an event in some of the weakest fields ever as a proxy for its historical significance.

The problem with the WTF right now isn't that guys are burned out, it's that Thiem, Nishikori, Cilic and co. are regulars with no prime ATG. Obviously the likes of Zverev and Dimitrov can sneak through and win given that.

It's possible to win a masters without facing anyone playing well, that's usually pretty hard to do to win WTF even today. Zverev's WTF win was much more impressive than any of his masters wins.
Point A: It is *impossible* to win a M1000 if you lose a singles match
Point B: It is *possible* to win the WTF if you lose a singles match, or even *2 singles matches*

I rest my case.
 
there are WTFs that were more difficult to win than certain slams but it's also harder to just get hot and win a slam due to the format.

WTFs are clearly the 5th biggest event to me, and 4th when AO wasn't a real slam.
Lol we know what the 4th Slam is now hint: USO
 
Point B: It is *possible* to win the WTF if you lose a singles match, or even *2 singles matches*
No one has ever won it while losing 2 matches. It is technically possible, but given it's not happened in the decades that the tournament has run, it's not all that relevant. Your point about winning with 1 loss is more valid, as that does happen. But equally, all the matches are against the best of the best. It's quite hard to have a completely weak draw, whereas it's much easier in a masters 1000

It's above a masters for me, but definitely below a slam. It's lost some of its prestige over the years
 
No one has ever won it while losing 2 matches. It is technically possible, but given it's not happened in the decades that the tournament has run, it's not all that relevant. Your point about winning with 1 loss is more valid, as that does happen. But equally, all the matches are against the best of the best. It's quite hard to have a completely weak draw, whereas it's much easier in a masters 1000

It's above a masters for me, but definitely below a slam. It's lost some of its prestige over the years
It's not all that relevant despite it being possible? Huh? That's not even an argument honey.

POINT A: You can lose 2 matches in the RR stage and win the WTF
POINT B: You cannot lose any matches in a M1000 event and win the title

The end.
 
Furthermore you can lose 2 matches in the RR stage, advance to the SF and lose there, finishing your tournament with SF points despite winning 1 match and losing 3 = RR formats can never beat knock-out formats for this reason alone.
 
In terms of prestige, winning IW will get you noticed / more fanfare / more potential endorsement deals than winning WTF, nobody even remembers Dimitrov and Goffin playing only 14 months ago in the showpiece ATP finale, yet everyone remembers the IW winner each year.
 
The WTF has lost some prestige recently, I think because of the obsession over the slam count. Once Federer/Nadal/Djokovic are off the scene it might have a resurgence because no one will be realistically chasing the slam record for a decade plus. One change I think they should make, which normally won't matter but occasionally will is make the winner of Bercy an automatic entrant. There's always some burnt out players and poor matches at the WTF, and a guy like Khachanov coming into it in white hot form last year would have boosted the event.
 
In terms of prestige, winning IW will get you noticed / more fanfare / more potential endorsement deals than winning WTF, nobody even remembers Dimitrov and Goffin playing only 14 months ago in the showpiece ATP finale, yet everyone remembers the IW winner each year.
A product of injuries to top players.
 
Point B: It is *possible* to win the WTF if you lose a singles match, or even *2 singles matches*

No one has ever won it while losing 2 matches. It is technically possible, but given it's not happened in the decades that the tournament has run, it's not all that relevant.

Never yet happened in the WTF but it did happen once in the WTA Finals a few years ago. In 2015 both finalists, the winner Radwanska and the runner-up Kvitova, had lost 2 of their round-robin matches!
 
An undefeated champions winning 5 matches gets 1,500 points. So in this sense it's certainly worth more than a Masters in terms of rankings. All matches are Bo3 however and many past champions won the tournament with 4 match wins.

At 4 match wins, that's a 250 tournament requirement (and many lower ranked players need 5 to win one).

The biggest sticking point for supporters is how you're looking at the Top 8-10 players on the year, HOWEVER that doesn't necessarily mean they're in that form come that time if most of their points came say, before the USO hard court season for example. Furthermore from a Slam Quarter onwards you're typically facing a Top 10 opponent in a Bo5. So you need to win 9 sets as oppose to 8 sets (in a 4-1 WTF champion). This is my sticking point as I think that's where the WTF credibility breaks down.

The point totals serve more of a guarantee for top players to bring up their gap for the following season and to justify sponsorships and ticket prices for the event. With lame duck matches the tournament itself without Bo5 for the last two rounds appears as a glorified exhibition and 3 prize money matches.

I have come to rate Indian Wells and Miami ahead of the WTF in terms of a player's resume. Winning 6 rounds where most of the Top 10 players participate in at least 1 of the 2 is a greater performance than winning 4 matches at the WTF.

So if I have to make a comparison I'd say making a Slam Final is above the level of a WTF champion. Yes some players luck out with a draw to make a Final but the same happens with the WTF in RR play and who your SF opponent is. Upsets are more common in Bo3 tournaments with top players losing early than at the Slams. But most importantly in recent times the victories of Davydenko (who made two final appearances), Dimitrov and Zverev confirm that it's easier to win a WTF than making a Slam Final.

Out of interest, do you think that winning the WTF undefeated rates more than winning it with 1 RR loss?
 
Out of interest, do you think that winning the WTF undefeated rates more than winning it with 1 RR loss?

Of course, since that essentially makes it an elevated 5 round Masters given the players.

However the lame duck RR match can still come into play if a 2-0 player faces an 0-2. Similarly a 2-0 vs. 2-0 scenario downgrades the match. So then it's circumstantial. A 2-0 vs. 1-1 scenario would be ideal.

I still don't view it above winning 6 Bo5 matches and therefore 18 sets vs. 10.

The WTF really should be Bo5 at SF & F.
 
It's not all that relevant despite it being possible? Huh? That's not even an argument honey.

POINT A: You can lose 2 matches in the RR stage and win the WTF
POINT B: You cannot lose any matches in a M1000 event and win the title

The end.
You can technically win a slam without facing a player in the top 100, which is impossible for the WTF. It's never come even close to happening, so it's an irrelevant argument. Same goes for the 2 losses in the RR at the WTF
 
You can technically win a slam without facing a player in the top 100, which is impossible for the WTF. It's never come even close to happening, so it's an irrelevant argument. Same goes for the 2 losses in the RR at the WTF

You could technically win the WTF without facing a player in the top 100. It would require a hell of a lot of withdrawals, but technically could happen.
 
You could technically win the WTF without facing a player in the top 100. It would require a hell of a lot of withdrawals, but technically could happen.
Yeah if the whole top 100 were injured, that'd be a pretty concerning state for tennis lol
 
Furthermore you can lose 2 matches in the RR stage, advance to the SF and lose there, finishing your tournament with SF points despite winning 1 match and losing 3 = RR formats can never beat knock-out formats for this reason alone.
Twit! in the WTF you only get points for the matches you win so in the above scenario you would only get 200 points for the lone rr win
 
The argument against WTF is always the same: you can win it with 2 losses, such a shame etc.. However, it never happened and it would also mean you need at least 3 top8 wins.

You can win a slam without a top25 win. I think we can also find some examples of easy draw for M1000.

It's been discussed over and over, but no argument shows that any M1000 is harder than WTF.
 
WTF is a marketing tourney (exhibition) to retain viewers and sponsorship through a whole year since the important GS events are over. The extra points, grabbing the hottest players, etc. are all to bring end of the year drama and keep people interested.
 
WTF is only one time a year, so it's like four slams, no?

Olympics is every 4th year = 4 WTFs = 16 slams (singles only!)

Adjusted slam accounts:
Fraud: 44
MuryGoat: 39
Novack: 35
Rafito: 33


Edited: 39 - not 40 - for MuryGoat, I sorry! Courtesy of @Im(moral) Winner

6 Majors are subtracted from the total of the loser (sounds fitting), if the guy who won the OG beat the other guy in the running for the GOAT in the final.

Plz, correct and present the results.

:cool:
 
Its an unusual tournament that only tennis fans are aware of . It has no historical venue, strange rules, and is insulated from the public. I was reminded of the bubble that I'm in yesterday on one of these millionaire type gameshows. One of the questions was whether the aus open was the 1st-4th slam of the year. She wasn't even sure if the aus open was tennis and had to use a lifeline. Another older person I know who is just well read but doesn't care for tennis can only name Wimbledon as a tournament by name. Imagine telling these people someone won the the WTF.
 
WTF is a marketing tourney (exhibition) to retain viewers and sponsorship through a whole year since the important GS events are over. The extra points, grabbing the hottest players, etc. are all to bring end of the year drama and keep people interested.

^^ Bad trolling.

8-)
 
Slam win > Yec win (undef. or with 1 loss) > slam final

Have to beat top 10 players only to win the YEC.

None of the YEC wins were close to being as weak as some of the slam final runs - Lewis 83, Washington 96, Clement 01, schuettler 03 etc.

ATP points wise as well : 1500 and 1300 (yec undef. And YEC with 1 loss) > 1200 (slam final)

Logically, historically, mathematically accurate. Close the thread after this.
 
The argument is however about the rate of difficulty.

Corretja essentially beat Rusedski-Costa in RR then Sampras-Moya.
Hewitt 01 beats Agassi, Rafter, Grosjean then Ferrero and again Grosjean. Keep in mind Rafter is playing his last matches and loses then all.
Hewitt 02 beats Safin-Costa then Federer-Ferrero, now what needs to be mentioned is all 3 of his pre-final wins were in 3 full sets so in a Bo5 format who the hell knows.
Nalbandian beats Coria-Ljubicic then Davydenko and the epic against Federer where Roger had apparently injured his ankle (still epic match)
Dimitrov beats Busta-Thiem-Goffin then Sock and Goffin again.
Zverev beats Cilic-Isner then Federer-Djokovic, impressive on paper with those last two but in reality the Roger win isn't and Novak had lost to Khachanov in Paris.


So yeah, you could say on name recognition none of those are below some of the runs you mention but the reality is Slams require 3 sets to win the match. Chris Lewis in 1983 won three 5 set matches. Those 3 matches ALONE took more time than any 4 matches for WTF outside a 5 set final like Corretja, Nalbandian and Hewitt had. Now I also think the Dimitrov run is powerfully weak. The best player in this on that surface is clearly Goffin who he gets twice. And I'm sorry but 4 sets against Goffin isn't worth more than a quarter and semifinal match of an open draw because those guys making it that far deserve some respect.

And frankly Lewis against Curren, Washington again Henman-Martin, Clement against Kafelnikov-Grosjean and Schuettler against Nalbandian-Roddick aren't clearly below some of the above especially given some of those names being in the WTF runs!

The RR matches can be VERY iffy and why I really think it downgrades the tournament because what is an 0-2 player really going to bring? He's getting the PAY CHEQUE ANYWAY!!! So you can legitimately argue in some of these cases the guy who won the WTF basically played 3 contentious Bo3 matches or 2 and 1 Bo5 in those earlier cases, but we're talking present-day.

Specifically also with beating a guy twice like Dimitrov had Goffin and Hewitt with Grosjean. Is it a plus or a takeaway? One could argue it's like getting a tasty semifinal match-up twice.

yeah, they are.
Sampras alone in 98 YEC (Corretja), Agassi alone in 01 YEC (Hewitt) are bigger/better wins than wins in the runs of the guys I mentioned.
The mention of Djokovic losing to Khachanov in Paris is pointless , so is talking about Bo3 for Hewitt's 02 win.
Dimitrov's YEC is one of the weakest, if not the weakest. But his form was damn good. Obviously wouldn't come close to getting destroyed like the other guys did in their slam finals. And Goffin actually played a good final, unlike in the RR.

Schuettler obviously got advantaged by Roddick coming off 2 5-setters , incl a 21-19 in the QF vs El Ayanoui.
Washington benifitted from a massive Todd Martin choke. He didn't face Henman in Wim 96.
Lewis benefitted from Curren't choke.


As far as 0-2 player in RR is concerned, 200 points and pride.
 
Does it even do what the trolling claims? People here get excited for it but except the bbc when Andy Murray is playing I don't see hype for the tourney.

It is an official tournament with a prestige built on decades of existence and participation of the best of the best.

8-)
 
In terms of prestige, winning IW will get you noticed / more fanfare / more potential endorsement deals than winning WTF, nobody even remembers Dimitrov and Goffin playing only 14 months ago in the showpiece ATP finale, yet everyone remembers the IW winner each year.

This is BS. WTF is much more impressive. No player on tour would trade a WTF championship with any other masters.
 
In terms of prestige, winning IW will get you noticed / more fanfare / more potential endorsement deals than winning WTF, nobody even remembers Dimitrov and Goffin playing only 14 months ago in the showpiece ATP finale, yet everyone remembers the IW winner each year.

You can't just assert this stuff as if it were self-evident. You have to prove it. "Everyone remembers the IW winner each year"? Who says? Have you taken a comprehensive survey? And who is "everyone"?
 
Its an unusual tournament that only tennis fans are aware of . It has no historical venue, strange rules, and is insulated from the public. I was reminded of the bubble that I'm in yesterday on one of these millionaire type gameshows. One of the questions was whether the aus open was the 1st-4th slam of the year. She wasn't even sure if the aus open was tennis and had to use a lifeline. Another older person I know who is just well read but doesn't care for tennis can only name Wimbledon as a tournament by name. Imagine telling these people someone won the the WTF.

These anecdotes might be relevant if the question posed by the thread were, "How do people who know absolutely nothing about tennis compare the WTF to the slams?" Answer: They don't.
 
In terms of prestige, winning IW will get you noticed / more fanfare / more potential endorsement deals than winning WTF, nobody even remembers Dimitrov and Goffin playing only 14 months ago in the showpiece ATP finale, yet everyone remembers the IW winner each year.

1106514-cool_story_bro_super.jpg
 
WTF can't be compared to IW, or Rome imo as it only has 8 players (most of whom are burnt out by the end of the season) and we get winners like Dimitrov and Zverev as a result.

Compared to other tournaments that have existed for all or almost all of the Open Era, the YEC (variously called the Masters Grand Prix, ATP World Championship, Masters Cup, WTF, ATP Finals) has a roster of champions that is second to none in terms of overall accomplishment and stature. For example, the fact that Nadal has dominated Roland Garros this century does not erase the memory of past French Open champions such as Andres Gomez (never progressed beyond the QF of any other slam, ever) and Gaston Gaudio (never progressed beyond the third round of any other slam, ever).

But of course Jimmy Arias won Rome, so perhaps you're right about its prestige.
 
Last edited:
These anecdotes might be relevant if the question posed by the thread were, "How do people who know absolutely nothing about tennis compare the WTF to the slams?" Answer: They don't.

The anecdotes were just here to show that even slams which some people think are common knowledge among the general public aren't. I don't need anecdotes to show how little known the WTF is outside of these circles.

The question was just a disguised version of how WTF influence GOAT debate. I would say very little since the media doesn't hype it and so the general public doesn't care. A big part of being the GOAT is making a player a buzzword associated with the sport to non fans.
 
Easily below Slams, easily above all Masters. Would rather win the YEC than be runner-up of a Slam, but winning a Slam is way above winning the YEC.
 
Back
Top