How do you feel about Max Purcell 'ratting out' a fellow tennis player's doping violation?

[Rovesciarete]

I was earlier curious how exactly ITIA discovered that Max used a prohibited method twice and five times over the limit and it seems it had to do with his text massages. ITIA cut his ban down by a quarter after getting his 'substantial assistance' against another player by 'discovering or bringing forward an Anti-Doping* Rule Violation':

B. Substantial Assistance

37. TADP Article 10.7.1 provides that prior to an appellate decision, the ITIA may "suspend a part of the Consequences" imposed on a player where that player has provided Substantial Assistance that "results in the ITIA or other Anti-Doping Organisation discovering or bringing forward an Anti-Doping Rule Violation by another Person"

38. cAccording to the definition of Substantial Assistance, in order for Article 10.7.1 to apply, "the information provided must be credible and must comprise an important part of any case or proceeding that is initiated"

P.S: Interesting that the PTPA has heavily attacked ITIA's search of player's cellphones - that would have made the discovery of Purcell's anti-doping violations highly unlikely...

*Anti-Doping Rule Violation is generally the correct phrase. As the ITIA had to prove intent in this case a settlement seemed sensible for both parties. If Max had been convicted of breaking those rule with intent to dope, his ban would have been well over two years. We will see how things go for the other guy, against whom he provided assistance...

 

[Bartelby]

According to another poster, a player whose phone was confiscated had an incriminating message about Purcell.

PTPA is right to criticise cellphone searches, so bring on the law suit and new players in the tennis tournament marketplace!

 

[Better_Call_Raul]

PTPA is right to criticise cellphone searches, so bring on the law suit and new players in the tennis tournament marketplace!

Will you just calm down? The second player might have voluntarily surrendered his phone upon request by the ITIA.
This is a common way that anti-doping agencies obtain evidence. Do you wish to catch dopers or not?

 

[Bartelby]

If you have to base a comment on a guess then why comment at all?

Will you just calm down? The second player might have voluntarily surrendered his phone upon request by the ITIA.
This is a common way that anti-doping agencies obtain evidence. Do you wish to catch dopers or not?

 

[jeroenn]

If you have to base a comment on a guess then why comment at all?

LOL!!! Look who's talking...

Oh my... As daft as most of your comments are, these are the nuggets that keep me reading them..

Oy, that was a good laugh

 

[Better_Call_Raul]

If you have to base a comment on a guess then why comment at all?

My dear dunderhead. You are the one that foolishly presumed, with no basis, that the phone of player only identified in documents as "Player 2" was confiscated by ITIA investigators.
Perhaps "Player 2" voluntarily surrendered his phone. Player 2 might simply be a witness. Nobody knows.
In any case it would generally be in Player 2's best interests to cooperate with ITIA investigators to mitigate any potential penalties if he is the subject of investigation.

 

[Bartelby]

So you are still going on about things you have no knowledge of!

My dear dunderhead. You are the one that foolishly presumed, with no basis, that the phone of player only identified in documents as "Player 2" was confiscated by ITIA investigators.
We do not know if "Player 2" voluntarily surrendered his phone. Player 2 might simply be a witness. Nobody knows.
In any case it would generally be in Player 2's best interests to cooperate with ITIA investigators to mitigate any potential penalties.

 

[Better_Call_Raul]

We prefer the term "Informant" as "Rat" has rather negative connotations.
And how could exposing more dopers ever be bad for the sport?

As for the informant, he is simply acting in his self-interest to mitigate his penalty. It is neither good or bad.
It is just what it is.

 

[mtommer]

If you have to base a comment on a guess then why comment at all?

Verryyy gooodddd! By George, there may be hope for you yet!

 

[Rovesciarete]

We prefer the term "Informant" as "Rat" has rather negative connotations.
And how could exposing more dopers ever be bad for the sport?

As for the informant, he is simply acting in his self-interest to mitigate his penalty. It is neither good or bad.
It is just what it is.

'Providing substantial assistance to the ITIA or other Anti-Doping Organisation in discovering or bringing forward an Anti-Doping Rule Violation by another Person' was a bit overly long, albeit informing on a player would have been a more neutral.

Maybe this provisional suspension of another Australian player is just pure coincidence and has absolutely nothing to do with important information coming from a fellow double specialist.

 

[Mainad]

I daresay one shouldn't be "ratting anybody out" unless there are compelling reasons to do so.

 

[travlerajm]

I’m not understanding how Purcell ratted out a fellow player. Are we referring to Player 2?

 

[Bartelby]

Have you forgotten your continual excuse-making for Sinner?

We prefer the term "Informant" as "Rat" has rather negative connotations.
And how could exposing more dopers ever be bad for the sport?

As for the informant, he is simply acting in his self-interest to mitigate his penalty. It is neither good or bad.
It is just what it is.

 

[Better_Call_Raul]

Maybe this provisional suspension of another Australian player is just pure coincidence and has absolutely nothing to do with important information coming from a fellow double specialist.

The provisional suspension of Fancutt above may or may not be related to the Purcell case.
It remains to be seen who is the player that Purcell informed on.

"Providing substantial assistance to the ITIA in discovering or bringing forward an Anti-Doping Rule Violation by another Person".
" in order for Article 10.7.1 to apply, "the information provided must be credible and must comprise an important part of any case or proceeding that is initiated"

The ITIA had already initiated an investigation unrelated to Purcell. Purcell was not under investigation.
A chat was discovered on a phone involved in the other investigation which implicated Purcell and opened up a new investigation into Purcell.

ITIA may already have had a strong case against the player in the other investigation. Purcell may have then informed on a player that the ITIA was unaware of.

It is not likely that ITIA would mitigate Purcell's penalty for informing on a player that the ITIA already had a strong case on.

 

[Better_Call_Raul]

Have you forgotten your continual excuse-making for Sinner?

Sinner did not inform on anybody to mitigate his penalty for his unfortunate accidental contamination.
Unlike your favourite 500 ml IV drip Purcell, the young Sinner does not move amongst the doping circles and had nothing to offer to the ITIA.
So Purcell the innocent vitamin dripper just so happens to know of doping players he can name to the ITIA. How convenient.
Purcell is the company that he keeps.

 

[norcal]

I heard after Max snitched on Player 2 he relocated to Omaha Nebaska, where he now manages a Cinnabon.

 

[Better_Call_Raul]

I daresay one shouldn't be "ratting anybody out" unless there are compelling reasons to do so.

It is suspicious that Purcell the innocent vitamin dripper just so happens to know of doping players he can name to the ITIA.

 

[Bartelby]

The ITIA and WADA offered everything to Sinner on a plate. Purcell has little commercial value, so no offers were forthcoming.

Sinner did not inform on anybody to mitigate his penalty for his unfortunate accidental contamination.
Unlike your favourite 500 ml IV drip Purcell, the young Sinner does not move amongst the doping circles and had nothing to offer to the ITIA.
So Purcell the innocent vitamin dripper just so happens to know of doping players he can name to the ITIA. How convenient.
Purcell is the company that he keeps.

 

[RSJfan]

I heard after Max snitched on Player 2 he relocated to Omaha Nebaska, where he now manages a Cinnabon.

 

[Shaolin]

Snitches get ditches.

 

[jon70]

It's highlighted something for me - maybe most, if not all of them, treat tennis as a job for money, and in jobs people often bend or break rules. Titles, prestige - secondary to the cheque. I know that's what professionalism is, but still...kind of sad.

 

[Bartelby]

The fish rots from the head down ... and that means "all tennis", not just players.

It's highlighted something for me - maybe most, if not all of them, treat tennis as a job for money, and in jobs people often bend or break rules. Titles, prestige - secondary to the cheque. I know that's what professionalism is, but still...kind of sad.

 

[aus89]

He lied about self reporting, he lied about the infusions, he says it wasn't in competition so gained no advantage (ie: he used it to maximise his training block to recover quicker and tried to cover it up) and blamed it on racist stereotypes of "third world countries" like Bali isn't full of expensive high end services like this for travelers - Purcell is clearly deserving of his 18 months

 

[Better_Call_Raul]

and blamed it on racist stereotypes of "third world countries" like Bali isn't full of expensive high end services like this for travelers - Purcell is clearly deserving of his 18 months

This millionaire got ill while on holiday in Bali and claims he needed an urgent vitamin infusion for fatigue.
He characterized it as a "third world clinic". Insinuating he was forced to take treatment at a shady Bali clinic which provided sloppy care and ignored his 100 ml dosage instructions.
As if there are not a million other modern reputable clinics in Bali that he could have visited.
Purcell purposefully chose a shady clinic that would do the needful; cover up for him.

 

[aus89]

This millionaire got ill while on holiday in Bali and claims he needed an urgent vitamin infusion for fatigue.
He characterized it as a "third world clinic". Insinuating he was forced to take treatment at a shady Bali clinic which provided sloppy care and ignored his 100 ml dosage instructions.
As if there are not a million other modern reputable clinics in Bali that he could have visited.
Purcell purposefully chose a shady clinic that would do the needful; cover up for him.

I doubt he went to some shady clinic or that they were sloppy lol he said he was fatigued from training not even sick so yeah clearly he just was getting infusions so he could train more and harder during the offseason, clearly seeking advantage.

 

[Better_Call_Raul]

I doubt he went to some shady clinic or that they were sloppy lol he said he was fatigued from training not even sick so yeah clearly he just was getting infusions so he could train more and harder during the offseason, clearly seeking advantage.

That is a generous reading of it.
A 500 ml infusion will also dilute urine samples and potentially mask prohibited substances. That is why WADA anti-doping rules strictly restricts infusions to 100 ml.
Very alarming and suspicious behaviour that could have easily justified a lifetime ban.
There is a reason that this Aussie quickly made the deal for a 2 year banishment minus 25% for his Dropper Man services.

 

[aus89]

A 500 ml infusion will also dilute urine and potentially mask prohibited substances. That is why WADA anti-doping rules strictly restricts infusions to 100 ml.
Very alarming and suspicious behaviour.

I mean even just the infusions alone is enough imo - 18 mths is very generous for something so egregious

 

[Better_Call_Raul]

I mean even just the infusions alone is enough imo - 18 mths is very generous for something so egregious

One month after the two huge 500 ml illegal infusions Purcell nearly knocked off Ruud at Australian Open.

 

[Aabye5]

Sinner did not inform on anybody to mitigate his penalty for his unfortunate accidental contamination.
Unlike your favourite 500 ml IV drip Purcell, the young Sinner does not move amongst the doping circles and had nothing to offer to the ITIA.
So Purcell the innocent vitamin dripper just so happens to know of doping players he can name to the ITIA. How convenient.
Purcell is the company that he keeps.

Still...the circles he does move in are not exactly unknown to doping investigators.

 

[Bartelby]

So you are confecting possible causation out of what could more probably be completely unrelated. Do you understand how outrageous this is?

One month after the two huge 500 ml illegal infusions Purcell nearly knocked off Ruud at Australian Open.

 

[Arak]

I feel that we worry too much about doping around here. It’s been obvious by now that everyone is on something. They catch someone every now and then but it’s just the tip of the iceberg. I personally have stopped caring about this. It’s totally pointless.

 

[Better_Call_Raul]

So you are confecting possible causation out of what could more probably be completely unrelated. Do you understand how outrageous this is?

A 500 ml infusion is a prohibited method. This method is prohibited precisely because of its potential to mask illicit substances.
You can not prove that his multiple infusions in late December did not mask illicit substance testing during January's Australian Open.

 

[aus89]

A 500 ml infusion is a prohibited method. This method is prohibited precisely because of its potential to mask illicit substances.
You can not prove that his multiple infusions in late December did not mask illicit substance testing during January's Australian Open.

I mean Ruud has had his own problems even without Purcell doping - I think the advantage here was being able to train more/harder in off season by using the infusions to recover quicker and badly attempting to cover it up, I don't think there was any doping here.

 

[Rosstour]

I mean Ruud has had his own problems even without Purcell doping - I think the advantage here was being able to train more/harder in off season by using the infusions to recover quicker and badly attempting to cover it up, I don't think there was any doping here.

How is that not doping lol

 

[aus89]

How is that not doping lol

it is - i just don't think he was covering up like roids/a prohibited substance like Raul was suggesting haha I think the vitamins were the extent of it - 18 months is very generous for the circumstances imo

 

[Rosstour]

it is - i just don't think he was covering up like roids/a prohibited substance like Raul was suggesting haha I think the vitamins were the extent of it - 18 months is very generous for the circumstances imo

True. He might have given someone/s up as well.

 

[travlerajm]

True. He might have given someone/s up as well.

Isn’t Player 2 the one whose phone had all the goods on Purcell?

 

[Rosstour]

Isn’t Player 2 the one whose phone had all the goods on Purcell?

Yes, but that doesn't mean it stopped there.

 

[Rovesciarete]

He lied about self reporting, he lied about the infusions, he says it wasn't in competition so gained no advantage (ie: he used it to maximise his training block to recover quicker and tried to cover it up) and blamed it on racist stereotypes of "third world countries" like Bali isn't full of expensive high end services like this for travelers - Purcell is clearly deserving of his 18 months

I mean Ruud has had his own problems even without Purcell doping - I think the advantage here was being able to train more/harder in off season by using the infusions to recover quicker and badly attempting to cover it up, I don't think there was any doping here.

Tennis Unfiltered, which features a coach of one of the main competitors, points out the same. Speaking to other players the nature, timing and extent of his anti-doping violation looks very bad indeed. That he was in contact with another player which seems to have done something quite similar makes it worse...

However I tend to believe that informing against the other player was not your classic ratting out and more of a reciprocal affair. Was just surprised how nobody seemed to notice the part, hello PTPA....

 

[Better_Call_Raul]

The investigators are not likely to cut a deal with Purcell for giving up Player 2, whom they already had the goods on.
Purcell may have dobbed on Player 3.

 

[Bartelby]

So were all the phone and email details of all communications between Sinner and his team poured over as a part of his doping investigation?

 

[Better_Call_Raul]

However I tend to believe that informing against the other player was not your classic ratting out and more of a reciprocal affair.

It is the classic scenario. These dopers are motivated purely by self-interest and are not out to clean the sport.

Once these dopers are caught, they will snitch on their doper friends to cut a deal. That is the doper crowd Purcell was in with.
It is shocking that he went in for a second illegal infusion just a day after discussing how to evade the first illegal infusion.
Such a brazen and reckless disregard for the doping rules. At first we assumed he was ill and needed an urgent infusion but he is on the chat
discussing how to feign an illness... And given that he was on Christmas holiday and out of competition, he would have no need for the quick recovery
benefits of a vitamin infusion; he was not playing in any tournament. It highly suggests that he was infusing for the purposes of masking illicit substances.

 

[jm1972]

Italian poster shocked omerta broken in this case.

 

[Bartelby]

If the examination of phones was useful in the Purcell case, then why not an examination of Team Sinner's phones to shed light on the truth of his cover story?

 

[mtommer]

If the examination of phones was useful in the Purcell case, then why not an examination of Team Sinner's phones to shed light on the truth of his cover story?

I don't understand. Why are you asking this question? Don't you know the answer?

 

[BenBen]

Snitches get stitches. (Federer's rental house in Miami when he and his family are staying at the Setai"

 

[jeroenn]

You only know personal abuse as a mode of engagement.

Like your personal abuse towards sinner.

 

[Bartelby]

You are the one engaging in personal abuse, as I've pointed out on several occasions. As for Sinner, you can defend him with argument rather than abuse.

Like your personal abuse towards sinner.

 

[Bartelby]

These are rhetorical questions so can you rephrase them as claims? I will be happy to respond to any and all assertions backed by argument.

I don't understand. Why are you asking this question? Don't you know the answer?

 

[ChrisJR3264]

I daresay one shouldn't be "ratting anybody out" unless there are compelling reasons to do so.

Unless it’s Sinner