How do you hit topspin on a low-toss serve?

[Phyneas123]

How do players who hit their serves at the apex of the toss (Roscoe Tanner, Dolgopolov, Ivanisevic) hit effective topspin serves? I have lowered my toss so that I hit in one continuous motion and found it to be a big improvement on my flat serves as I no longer wait under the toss and mis-time it, but I have found it extremely difficult to hit effective topspin serves like this, especially as I toss the ball almost directly forwards into the court and thus when hitting a kick serve have to actually toss the ball backwards towards myself and hit it on the rise or at its apex which becomes very awkward. Does anyone have any tips about how to accomplish/improve this?

 

[ballmachineguy]

I’m in the camp that too much is made of getting extra or easier to access topspin from a high falling toss. People return Rafa’s forehands and return them with their own 3000rpms.
Check your kick serve technique. If it is correct, toss height shouldn’t matter. Maybe your low toss is taking time away from getting your knees bent and your shoulders tilted appropriately for driving the racquet up the back of the ball.

 

[ProStaffFanatic]

Imo, toss height isn't so much about the type of serve (flat, kick, slice) as it is about what your personal "rhythm" is of your overall serve motion.
Some have a quick motion, like Kyrgios. The ball almost doesn't drop from his toss.
Other serve motions are slower and then there will be more of a drop from the toss (and thus a higher toss, assuming same strike zone).

Having said that, the strike zone of a kick serve will typically be a little lower then the strike zone of a flat serve. Seems to make sense, since you need that extra "height" buffer to brush up to get that kick effect. If you're at your appex with your racket when striking, you can't really brush up anymore to get that topspin on the ball. I don't think toss height between my flat and kick serve is much different. I think for the kick it just drops a little bit lower. Not much though. Perhaps a "ball" lower. The toss however is more over my head with a kick serve.
Say if the flat serve is tossed over my right shoulder (and a little in front of me), then for a kick serve it will be more above my head and a little less in front of me. My grip probably also moves a tiny bit from continental towards a backhand grip.

Having said that, my kick serve isn't what it used to be. Throwing my racket up in that swing path is a bit of a problem with my shoulder... I kick it a little, but the swing path sits somewhere between flat and kick. Not ideal, but more then enough for a decent second serve.

 

[tjanev]

what is a top spin serve? do you mean kick serve?

 

[ProStaffFanatic]

what is a top spin serve? do you mean kick serve?

Yes.

 

[Phyneas123]

I’m in the camp that too much is made of getting extra or easier to access topspin from a high falling toss. People return Rafa’s forehands and return them with their own 3000rpms.
Check your kick serve technique. If it is correct, toss height shouldn’t matter. Maybe your low toss is taking time away from getting your knees bent and your shoulders tilted appropriately for driving the racquet up the back of the ball.

I suspect that this is the primary culprit, my coach mentioned when I lowered my toss that I was not bending my knees as much as before, probably because I do no feel like I have enough time to do so, which could suggest either a problem with my toss location relative to my body, or how I am loading into the swing.

Assuming I can fix the above, should it still be possible for me to hit a good kick serve while tossing the ball directly forwards into the court, or is that going to be a point of difficulty as well? I think Dolgopolov tossed fairly perpendicular to the baseline, but I will have to look at it more closely.

 

[Grafil Injection]

To hit topspin all that has to happen is the racket face (contact point) is closed to the path of the same racket face (contact point). Even if it's just 1mm, so long as the face is closed to the path, topspin will be applied. And since tall players are contacting at a higher point, the face of their racket can be slightly more downward facing at contact so even a downward travelling racket can apply topspin, so long as it is moving on a downward path that is less steep than the angle of the racket face.

 

[Phyneas123]

Here is a cap from Tanner and Connors in 1976, first and second serves, the second serve looks like maybe a slice-kick serve, but still impressive action on it and Roscoe hitting it at its apex.

https://imgur.com/a/wCeHwGH

 

[Phyneas123]

To hit topspin all that has to happen is the racket face (contact point) is closed to the path of the same racket face (contact point). Even if it's just 1mm, so long as the face is closed to the path, topspin will be applied. And since tall players are contacting at a higher point, the face of their racket can be slightly more downward facing at contact so even a downward travelling racket can apply topspin, so long as it is moving on a downward path that is less steep than the angle of the racket face.

Does this mean that a server can hit a topspin serve tossed infront of them as opposed to over their head just as long as these conditions are met for the racket-face relative to the racket-path?

 

[Dragy]

It may be that you cannot hit “topspin” serve off low toss you use for your first serve. But if it’s a low toss placed where you need it for your second spin serve, it shall absolutely work.

In your case, turn more in windup for kick serve, so the ball isn’t going straight back but arcing a bit sideways. You may feel better with just a tad higher toss for 2nd serves (watch Ruud), I agree it’s all rhythm thing.

With high toss you may achieve an arc that is suitable for any serve, taking into account you have time to position your body under the ball any way you need it. Som free servers even step with front foot.

 

[LuckyR]

If your "low toss serve" is being struck at a point lower than your maximum contact point, it's too low.

 

[ballmachineguy]

I suspect that this is the primary culprit, my coach mentioned when I lowered my toss that I was not bending my knees as much as before, probably because I do no feel like I have enough time to do so, which could suggest either a problem with my toss location relative to my body, or how I am loading into the swing.

Assuming I can fix the above, should it still be possible for me to hit a good kick serve while tossing the ball directly forwards into the court, or is that going to be a point of difficulty as well? I think Dolgopolov tossed fairly perpendicular to the baseline, but I will have to look at it more closely.

To answer the question about whether you can hit kick/topspin tossing out into the court, you can as long as you also toss 11:30-12 o’clock ish on a clock face viewed from behind a right-hander.