How do you think about tennis techniques?

C

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
For your tennis stroke goals, we all must have information on our techniques.

For your tennis goals, how do you think about tennis stroke techniques?

1 - Images from videos
2 - Word descriptions of technique.
3 - Instruction (as in person, instructional video, internet coach, etc)
4 - Other methods......

Comment about how you think about your strokes and "other methods".

For me, it is some of all, but with video being the most important and believable by far. Believe videos, but word descriptions and instructions have a true or false issue for you to deal with. Believing one false thing about a tennis stroke may be a show stopper!

As a much younger tennis player in the 1970s, high speed filming or videos cost too much. I 16mm high speed filmed my tennis strokes only once, in 1980. I had no idea of stroke techniques at the ATP level or for me and the other tennis players at my club. I did not understand and was completely ignorant of ATP tennis stroke techniques. Everything for me was little true information, DIY and minimal instruction. What a disaster!

Many times when analyzing poster's stroke videos - the posters are after FREE advice - but do not want to look at the videos themselves. They are missing a lot.

I should add, that in the 1970's I read many tennis books intensively.
 
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Combination of words and images. But words more important than images.

Primary: words
Secondary: images

Must have both though.
 
Different folks learn differently. Personally I learned tennis stroke mechanics best from watching and mimicking. But to actually answer your question: "Comment about how you think about your strokes", I (almost) never think about stroke mechanics, thay have to be grooved to the point of muscle memory. Only think about what you're trying to accomplish on the court and let your body relax and make it happen.
 
What do we think about for how the racket head is lowered for the 1HBH and 2HBH? One sub-motion.

To single frame on Youtube, stop video, go full screen and use the period & comma keys.

I can't remember this stuff, I consider the video as part of my memory and always bring it up and watch it.

(Answer later.)
 
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LuckyR said:
Different folks learn differently. Personally I learned tennis stroke mechanics best from watching and mimicking. But to actually answer your question: "Comment about how you think about your strokes", I (almost) never think about stroke mechanics, thay have to be grooved to the point of muscle memory. Only think about what you're trying to accomplish on the court and let your body relax and make it happen.
Click to expand...
Make what happen?
 
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LuckyR said:
Different folks learn differently. Personally I learned tennis stroke mechanics best from watching and mimicking. But to actually answer your question: "Comment about how you think about your strokes", I (almost) never think about stroke mechanics, thay have to be grooved to the point of muscle memory. Only think about what you're trying to accomplish on the court and let your body relax and make it happen.
Click to expand...
This thread is focused on how we describe tennis strokes to ourselves. It's less about learning strokes and the additional complications of learning.

For example, let's say you knew enough information about the stroke, but keep learning of the stroke out of it.

For about 35 years, I used DIY piecemeal chaos for information, with little accurate information mixed in. I had a disorganized collection of true and false information.

If you try to describe tennis strokes to yourself - is it images, words, or what an instructor said, or - worst of all - easy to remember mini instructions such as 'hit up and out', 'toss the ball over your head' etc.?

In other words, what are you thinking?
 
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Chas Tennis said:
For your tennis stroke goals, we all must have information on our techniques.

For your tennis goals, how do you think about tennis stroke techniques?

1 - Images from videos
2 - Word descriptions of technique.
3 - Instruction (as in person, instructional video, internet coach, etc)
4 - Other methods......

Comment about how you think about your strokes and "other methods".

For me, it is some of all, but with video being the most important and believable by far. Believe videos, but word descriptions and instructions have a true or false issue for you to deal with. Believing one false thing about a tennis stroke may be a show stopper!

As a much younger tennis player in the 1970s, high speed filming or videos cost too much. I 16mm high speed filmed my tennis strokes only once, in 1980. I had no idea of stroke techniques at the ATP level or for me and the other tennis players at my club. I did not understand and was completely ignorant of ATP tennis stroke techniques. Everything for me was little true information, DIY and minimal instruction. What a disaster!

Many times when analyzing poster's stroke videos - the posters are after FREE advice - but do not want to look at the videos themselves. They are missing a lot.

I should add, that in the 1970's I read many tennis books intensively.
Click to expand...
Complex issue that leads to others

Adults think way too much, gets in the way of learning.

If u buy into the v a r k learning theory u have visual, audio, read write, kinaesthetic.

Usually a combo if all 4 in differing amounts I'd go feel as more important to me as a learner.

I'm looking for a feel or a key. We're naturally quite visual I like to write less like to read if I'm learning.

Video is 2d and has its limitations,it can deceive us because of its 2d nature. the slo mo stuff whilst potentially very useful for declarative knowledge (good for coaches to have) can be misleading and get in the way of implicit knowledge (players need this more).

i prefer video For temporal spatial stuff, it's way to easy for people to get caught up in positions, trying to make a position happen when it's a result not a cause canvteally screw people over.

We move basically for 3 reasons

Pain a result of a parasympathetic nervous sysem. Fire burn, move hand owww.

Momentum in a system, happens in tennis cricket tennis etc we react to an incoming ball and if u go to perception action coupling there's attractor variables yada yada yada

An image in our mind. This is what golfers rely on. Tennis players can use it.

So to learn for yes images instructions words images feel

Sadly I'm inquisitive and the above IMHO sliws down the learning process though it can lead to deep learning and understanding.

To play feel, there's a reason most gamesmanship tactics are centered around getting us to think.
 
Chas Tennis said:
What do we think about for how the racket head is lowered for the 1HBH and 2HBH? One sub-motion.

To single frame on Youtube, stop video, go full screen and use the period & comma keys.

I can't remember this stuff, I consider the video as part of my memory and always bring it up and watch it.

(Answer later.)
Click to expand...

Lol the infamous 'drop', @Curious ?
 
ratherlosethanpush said:
Complex issue that leads to others

Adults think way too much, gets in the way of learning.

If u buy into the v a r k learning theory u have visual, audio, read write, kinaesthetic.

Usually a combo if all 4 in differing amounts I'd go feel as more important to me as a learner.

I'm looking for a feel or a key. We're naturally quite visual I like to write less like to read if I'm learning.

Video is 2d and has its limitations,it can deceive us because of its 2d nature. the slo mo stuff whilst potentially very useful for declarative knowledge (good for coaches to have) can be misleading and get in the way of implicit knowledge (players need this more).

i prefer video For temporal spatial stuff, it's way to easy for people to get caught up in positions, trying to make a position happen when it's a result not a cause canvteally screw people over.

We move basically for 3 reasons

Pain a result of a parasympathetic nervous sysem. Fire burn, move hand owww.

Momentum in a system, happens in tennis cricket tennis etc we react to an incoming ball and if u go to perception action coupling there's attractor variables yada yada yada

An image in our mind. This is what golfers rely on. Tennis players can use it.

So to learn for yes images instructions words images feel

Sadly I'm inquisitive and the above IMHO sliws down the learning process though it can lead to deep learning and understanding.

To play feel, there's a reason most gamesmanship tactics are centered around getting us to think.
Click to expand...
Too many difficulties and considerations.

Given all the issues - how do you describe to yourself what a tennis stroke is?

I mostly have a list of specific sub-motions that I have observered in high speed videos of higher ranked ATP players. I view the ATP videos to remember my list of sub-motions

What do you have?
 
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Anything in tennis or life, I think about cause effect relationship. Words, videos, images, data plots, every category is just a tool to understand the casual relationship.
 
Chas Tennis said:
This thread is focused on how we describe tennis strokes to ourselves. It's less about learning strokes and the additional complications of learning.

For example, let's say you knew enough information about the stroke, but keep learning of the stroke out of it.

For about 35 years, I used DIY piecemeal chaos for information, with little accurate information mixed in. I had a disorganized collection of true and false information.

If you try to describe tennis strokes to yourself - is it images, words, or what an instructor said, or - worst of all - easy to remember mini instructions such as 'hit up and out', 'toss the ball over your head' etc.?

In other words, what are you thinking?
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When are you "describing" your stroke to yourself? I was answering that question as during matchplay, that is during hitting the stroke itself. If you're talking about other times, the answer is going to vary between people depending on how they learned them in the first place (as I mentioned). If you mean during matchplay, l stand by my comment/advice that your stroke mechanics should be grooved to the point that you never think about them directly, instead thinking about where, how much pace and type of spin you want the shot to have, not the technique to create such a shot.
 
johnmccabe said:
Anything in tennis or life, I think about cause effect relationship. Words, videos, images, data plots, every category is just a tool to understand the casual relationship.
Click to expand...
Some of those sources of information have higher percentages of false information than other sources.

Video has almost no false information, but it can be incorrectly interpreted. I have experience with interpreting high speed video. Two orthogonal camera views can solve most of those misinterpretions. For example, an arm may appear vertical in one camera view, such as behind a server. But only if it appears vertical in two orthogonal camera views - is it really vertical.

With what is said on the internet, it's often The Tennis Stroke Nuthouse regarding true VS false.

The Tennis Serve - What's True?

On the other hand, when it comes to new stroke technique information, this Gavin MacMillan video is loaded. Listen carefully and have the captions on, view it slowly, stopping on each subject. Record the details that interest you carefully with the times of the video. Much of what he has to...
tt.tennis-warehouse.com tt.tennis-warehouse.com
 
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For me, I learned best by seeing (a coach demonstrating and me working on mimicking that, and then the coach applying corrections). In the early 90s I went to a USD tennis camp and that was the first place I saw myself on video, they rolled out a TV on a cart with a VCR and taped people with a camera that recorded directly to the video tape, and it was helpful to see myself and understand what the coaches were trying to say. It was not done in slow motion at that time, but you could start and stop the video to correct things. After visual, some small word cues do help me, but they are usually tied to images in my mind. I definitely did not learn by reading books.
 
MGArchitect said:
For me, I learned best by seeing (a coach demonstrating and me working on mimicking that, and then the coach applying corrections). In the early 90s I went to a USD tennis camp and that was the first place I saw myself on video, they rolled out a TV on a cart with a VCR and taped people with a camera that recorded directly to the video tape, and it was helpful to see myself and understand what the coaches were trying to say. It was not done in slow motion at that time, but you could start and stop the video to correct things. After visual, some small word cues do help me, but they are usually tied to images in my mind. I definitely did not learn by reading books.
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This sounds out of date if you are not viewing high speed video single frame. ? Do you view any high speed videos of your strokes?
 
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Chas Tennis said:
Some of those sources of information have higher percentages of false information than other sources.

Video has almost no false information, but it can be incorrectly interpreted. I have experience with interpreting high speed video. Two orthogonal camera views can solve most of those misinterpretions. For example, an arm may appear vertical in one camera view, such as behind a server. But only if it appears vertical in two orthogonal camera views - is it really vertical.

With what is said on the internet, it's often The Tennis Stroke Nuthouse regarding true VS false.

The Tennis Serve - What's True?

On the other hand, when it comes to new stroke technique information, this Gavin MacMillan video is loaded. Listen carefully and have the captions on, view it slowly, stopping on each subject. Record the details that interest you carefully with the times of the video. Much of what he has to...
tt.tennis-warehouse.com tt.tennis-warehouse.com
Click to expand...
Videos can be misinterpreted just as easily. This is why no one will be able to figure it out on their own just by comparing self recorded videos with pros. Videos show effect, but do not explain the cause.

Videos are super helpful during practice to enforce the right move after the correct instructions are given.
 
Chas Tennis said:
This sounds out of date if you are not viewing high speed video single frame. ? Do you view any high speed videos of your strokes?
Click to expand...
that was a long time ago, so definitely outdated. These days I don't film myself, but do occasionally play at a facility that has playsight installed and I watch those videos and use slow motion feature that they offer. Of course, these aren't high speed cameras, so I don't see it in quite the resolution you suggest, but it is generally good enough for what I want to see.
 
LuckyR said:
should be grooved to the point that you never think about them directly, instead thinking about where, how much pace and type of spin you want the shot to have, not the technique to create such a shot.
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That’s the concept which seems like best way and proper, but then you always see best players of the world doing some shadow swings and demonstrating how they wanted to “close it more” or something. That’s definitely not scientific analysis during a match of whether the angle of approach and power distribution between ISR and pronation was correct… but most of the best are quite aware of their mechanics and some small focus points they pay attention to.

So I would warn against totally no-thought no-reflection approach to tennis technique execution, even during a match. But on the other side there’s the overthinking + over-controlling problem we are possibly into with this thread.
 
Each sub-motion is a simple thing, simple enough to picture or discusss, that is sort of what a sub-motion is. But how to not miss any of them? And some sub-motions nobody knows about yet, like 'tossing arm inversion' recently from Gavin MacMillan.

How do you think about 'tossing arm inversion'? My mental image covers it perfectly and I never miss it anymore.

I was surprised to see 'tossing arm inversion' in about 10 ATP servers in a row that I checked.
 
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It's all about racquet swing path and orientation. But in any case, for it to make sense to the brain it's all about feel.
 
ppma said:
It's all about racquet swing path and orientation. But in any case, for it to make sense to the brain it's all about feel.
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What racket swing path and orientation? Agree, feel is huge, but leave that out for the future. How do you know the stroke?

Is everyone clear on tossing arm inversion?
 
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Chas Tennis said:
And some sub-motions nobody knows about yet, like 'tossing arm inversion' recently from Gavin MacMillan.
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It was well know long before, just had no fancy name maybe. For serve, and also for FH, tossing arm "palp-out" rotation was used by coaches. The main thing is to use it intentionally as coaching cue, when important. And not interfere highlighting "sub-motions" when nothing misses, and swings are good as a whole. You only think details to correct. You don't think details to perform.
 
Chas Tennis said:
Is everyone clear on tossing arm inversion?
Click to expand...
It's very natural way of doing it with enough repetition, if fundamentals are correct. I never tried to develop it intentionally, but I have it in my serve.

Now when you occasionally face someone who's stuck with some technique deficiency, you individually address it. But you don't teach a person to serve good by arm inversion or thoratic extension. You make them "get the tossing arm high and keep it there" and "open the chest towards the sky". And that's how they think about it until they don't need to.
 
Dragy said:
That’s the concept which seems like best way and proper, but then you always see best players of the world doing some shadow swings and demonstrating how they wanted to “close it more” or something. That’s definitely not scientific analysis during a match of whether the angle of approach and power distribution between ISR and pronation was correct… but most of the best are quite aware of their mechanics and some small focus points they pay attention to.

So I would warn against totally no-thought no-reflection approach to tennis technique execution, even during a match. But on the other side there’s the overthinking + over-controlling problem we are possibly into with this thread.
Click to expand...
Let me put it this way: if some guy is a little better than you and thus you are losing to him, on a changeover say: "wow you're really a great shotmaker, how do you perform your groundstrokes?" I can almost guaratee his level will drop. In fact saying that is such blatant gamesmanship it borders on cheating.
 
LuckyR said:
Let me put it this way: if some guy is a little better than you and thus you are losing to him, on a changeover say: "wow you're really a great shotmaker, how do you perform your groundstrokes?" I can almost guaratee his level will drop. In fact saying that is such blatant gamesmanship it borders on cheating.
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Yeah yeah and a centipede died when she tried to think how she moves all her legs to walk…
 
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Chas Tennis said:
Too many difficulties and considerations.

Given all the issues - how do you describe to yourself what a tennis stroke is?

I mostly have a list of specific sub-motions that I have observered in high speed videos of higher ranked ATP players. I view the ATP videos to remember my list of sub-motions

What do you have?
Click to expand...
2 turns and a swish

I try not to describe it to myself in detail except for an intellectual interest in it which I do have. However, that whole idea screams declarative knowledge.

If I'm playing I'm not interested in the complexities. Most sub motions observed are results or effects not causes, they happen naturally if u get out of your own way and let them by getting your preparations and transition right.

At most 2 swing thoughts 1 max for preparation and 1 for action (that may be a particular finishing position even though that would be recovery if u get there it means the action was right) or an image of the shot I want to hit like the trackman or hawkeye images.

Points of low momentum in the swing count most imo, its where u can wrong and get off plane or go right.

If u get off plane the result is usually ugly as the forces involved will be against you getting back on track. If u get that transition or initiation right then the forces on the swing want to keep you on track.

So the transition between backswing preparation and stroke would be my focus.
 
Chas Tennis said:
Is everyone clear on tossing arm inversion?
Click to expand...
When I first heard about this I was curious myself, checked videos of my serve and saw that I was doing it, but I don't ever recall it being something that was coached or taught to me. Perhaps it was, but for me anyway, it seems more to be a result of other parts of the serve. And I certainly don't mentally think about it when performing my serve currently. How it got there? I have no idea.
 
Dragy said:
It's very natural way of doing it with enough repetition, if fundamentals are correct. I never tried to develop it intentionally, but I have it in my serve.

Now when you occasionally face someone who's stuck with some technique deficiency, you individually address it. But you don't teach a person to serve good by arm inversion or thoratic extension. You make them "get the tossing arm high and keep it there" and "open the chest towards the sky". And that's how they think about it until they don't need to.
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And loading the back foot? :)
 
Fintft said:
And loading the back foot? :)
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Depends on your serve. Step-up pinpoint has legs working together. Platform without big jump is also quite obvious, just use legs to be base for throwing motion unwinding.

Pro-level platform is a bit more complicated, it has back leg drive and then front leg used as a pole (like in pole vault), and need to sequence them. Starting with back foot loading and foot “loosening”…

Anyway, I’d look at particular server to determine what to say and practice, or not.
 
Dragy said:
Depends on your serve. Step-up pinpoint has legs working together. Platform without big jump is also quite obvious, just use legs to be base for throwing motion unwinding.

Pro-level platform is a bit more complicated, it has back leg drive and then front leg used as a pole (like in pole vault), and need to sequence them. Starting with back foot loading and foot “loosening”…

Anyway, I’d look at particular server to determine what to say and practice, or not.
Click to expand...
Step-up pinpoint and I was the impression that the "tossing arm inversion" only happens if you load the back foot, from the serve fundamentals video...
 
Fintft said:
Step-up pinpoint and I was the impression that the "tossing arm inversion" only happens if you load the back foot, from the serve fundamentals video...
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I don’t know. It just happens for many who have overall proper service motion and enough practice.

You can find enough pro players who seemingly don’t load back foot in pinpoint (only bring it up with the very tip just touching the ground), and have “inverted arm”.
 
Dragy said:
I don’t know. It just happens for many who have overall proper service motion and enough practice.

You can find enough pro players who seemingly don’t load back foot in pinpoint (only bring it up with the very tip just touching the ground), and have “inverted arm”.
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Could be, but atm, I am trying to follow that serve doctor.
 
Chas Tennis said:
What do we think about for how the racket head is lowered for the 1HBH and 2HBH? One sub-motion.

To single frame on Youtube, stop video, go full screen and use the period & comma keys.

I can't remember this stuff, I consider the video as part of my memory and always bring it up and watch it.

(Answer later.)
Click to expand...
To single frame on Youtube, stop video, go full screen and use the period & comma keys.

I see one sub-motion that the ATP players use to lower their racket heads:

1) They tilt the racket shaft down at an angle. Look at the racket shaft tilt and the head of the racket lowers. I first noticed that as I looked at ATP players hitting the 1HBH. Then the 2HBH. I was surprised, it did not seem right, and found I could do it.

But the main thing is for you to look at what they are doing. Percentage wise, look at the sub-motion that so many of the ATP players are doing.

Where is this sub-motion known? In ATP videos? Yes. Where else does it appear?

Where you feeling it?
Was it taught to you by others?
Where did you hear of racket tilting before I just told you?
I missed it for about 80 years!

Now that you see tilting, is it convincing when you see it?

And last, the main issue - do you believe that ATP players are often tilting their racket shafts to lower the heads of their rackets?

Just relax and look.

That is just one sub-motion observed.......one true thing.....
 
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Chas Tennis said:
That is just one sub-motion observed.......one true thing.....
Click to expand...
One misinterpreted thing more likely ;) missing the key part — how do they achieve it, how someone who doesn’t get this “tilting” naturally can (and should? when exactly?) implement such racquet head drop into their swing?

Until you start asking yourself these questions, it’s not useful to use period and comma keys. You cannot see what you don’t know here, unfortunately.

How you actually know? You make hypothesis and test it with actual players, actual strokes. When you want to discuss it, you come up with:
“Look guys, here what I proposed, here’s what a player (or me) achieved doing that, here’s the improved swing video, here’s the difference in ball produced” — great, now you have something you can call fact, or knowledge.
 
Dragy said:
One misinterpreted thing more likely ;) missing the key part — how do they achieve it, how someone who doesn’t get this “tilting” naturally can (and should? when exactly?) implement such racquet head drop into their swing?

Until you start asking yourself these questions, it’s not useful to use period and comma keys. You cannot see what you don’t know here, unfortunately.

How you actually know? You make hypothesis and test it with actual players, actual strokes. When you want to discuss it, you come up with:
“Look guys, here what I proposed, here’s what a player (or me) achieved doing that, here’s the improved swing video, here’s the difference in ball produced” — great, now you have something you can call fact, or knowledge.
Click to expand...
You can work on the other things, for now this is

How do you think about tennis techniques?​


To focus on something and get an answer -
If you count 10 of the backhands in the compilation, how many show racket shaft tilt to adjust the racket head height?
 
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Dragy said:
One misinterpreted thing more likely ;) missing the key part — how do they achieve it, how someone who doesn’t get this “tilting” naturally can (and should? when exactly?) implement such racquet head drop into their swing?
............................................................
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Good question.

I have seen the 1HBH doing ISR with a straight arm for racket tilt. Then they add ESR for top spin before impact. But look at the details in videos.

The 2HBH used racket shaft tilt but it did not appear so simple as the1HBH. Tilt may have hand use variety in the hand details. ?

Justine Henin has a good video for the racket tilt lowering the racket head for the 1HBH, I'd expect that to be on most backands of her backhand drives where she wants to lower the racket head for impact.

One Hand Backhand - Waht Force to Start Forward Swing?

Fxanimator1, What do you think of this description? When the upper body/chest turn is used to initially accelerate the arm by the chest directly pressing on the upper arm, the pace of the one hand backhand can be higher and the initial acceleration can be higher. Imagine squeezing a credit...
tt.tennis-warehouse.com tt.tennis-warehouse.com

Starts (first video playback) at 56 sec with Justine's 1HBH.

There are also other ways to lower the racket head. As bend knees & body.....
 
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Chas Tennis said:
To single frame on Youtube, stop video, go full screen and use the period & comma keys.

I see one sub-motion that the ATP players use to lower their racket heads:

1) They tilt the racket shaft down at an angle. Look at the racket shaft tilt and the head of the racket lowers. I first noticed that as I looked at ATP players hitting the 1HBH. Then the 2HBH. I was surprised, it did not seem right, and found I could do it.

But the main thing is for you to look at what they are doing. Percentage wise, look at the sub-motion that so many of the ATP players are doing.

Where is this sub-motion known? In ATP videos? Yes. Where else does it appear?

Where you feeling it?
Was it taught to you by others?
Where did you hear of racket tilting before I just told you?
I missed it for about 80 years!

Now that you see tilting, is it convincing when you see it?

And last, the main issue - do you believe that ATP players are often tilting their racket shafts to lower the heads of their rackets?

Just relax and look.

That is just one sub-motion observed.......one true thing.....
Click to expand...
One challenge I find with analyzing slow motion video of the pros is that, myself I find it hard to perceive whether something is being done actively with contraction, or if it is happening passively from a relaxed joint responding to acceleration (perhaps involving stretch/shorten). For example is the racquet head in the THBH dropping from actively tilting the racquet downward, or is it similar to backward lag on the forehand, which in my estimation is fully passive.

Re the main topic of the thread, I try to utilize both regular speed and slow motion video sources, to get a better guess at interpreting pro strokes, and from there go to shadow swings (and sometimes static poses) to try out guesses as to what they're doing, and from there go practice on the wall and film and try to compare how things look on my own stroke vs. the pros. I'm four years in and still on a steep learning trajectory, so the question of 'how do you describe the details of proper stroke technique to yourself' is very relevant.
 
liimey86 said:
One challenge I find with analyzing slow motion video of the pros is that, myself I find it hard to perceive whether something is being done actively with contraction, or if it is happening passively from a relaxed joint responding to acceleration (perhaps involving stretch/shorten). For example is the racquet head in the THBH dropping from actively tilting the racquet downward, or is it similar to backward lag on the forehand, which in my estimation is fully passive.
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“By creating conditions for things to happen” — this is a part @Chas Tennis doesn’t get trying to look at things in videos directly when and where they are happening. The more he narrows down what he looks at, the more (sometimes) he misses the forest for the trees.

Well, not him solely, he’s just like a superhero, representing everyone’s features to extreme.
 
Dragy said:
“By creating conditions for things to happen” — this is a part @Chas Tennis doesn’t get trying to look at things in videos directly when and where they are happening. The more he narrows down what he looks at, the more (sometimes) he misses the forest for the trees.

Well, not him solely, he’s just like a superhero, representing everyone’s features to extreme.
Click to expand...
How about some examples?
 
Chas Tennis said:
How about some examples?
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In order to achieve “shaft tilt” on 2HBH one drops his both hands to the desired “slot” below the ball, and likely “inside”, and then starts unwinding achieving the pull with the dominant hand (a lot like frisbee throw), while relaxing wrists and allowing everything else to passively lag behind for an instance. In these conditions “shaft tilt” is achieved thanks to inertia+gravity.
 
Dragy said:
In order to achieve “shaft tilt” on 2HBH one drops his both hands to the desired “slot” below the ball, and likely “inside”, and then starts unwinding achieving the pull with the dominant hand (a lot like frisbee throw), while relaxing wrists and allowing everything else to passively lag behind for an instance. In these conditions “shaft tilt” is achieved thanks to inertia+gravity.
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I have not studied the 2HBH other than to see Djokovic tilting his raket shaft down. I would never use words to communicate to you. I would show you a video and discuss the stroke sub-motions that I had observed.

This is the full analysis of the ATP 1HBH plus Justine Henin's.

Sub-motions of the 1HBH.

One Hand Backhand - Waht Force to Start Forward Swing?

If the swing is properly sequenced/balanced, centrifugal force makes the arm straighten, you kind of hold the swinging racquet so that it doesn’t fly away while its inertia pulls the arm against the shoulder. Meanwhile, if you try to push your upper arm forward, it causes elbow to bend, forearm...
tt.tennis-warehouse.com tt.tennis-warehouse.com

I expect that this is the most thorough 1HBH information that you will find. The sub-motions appeared as they were found over a period of some years. All take the approach of information based on ATP high speed video frames, with some elaboration with other information, all divided into sub-motions wherever useful.

Not much information from me on volleys, 2HBHs, footwork and other stuff other than just the videos.

Quote what I said and show it if you disagree with something.

Quick Stats - look at 10 or so ATP or WTA players and see if they use a specific sub-motion. If a number of the 10 players use a specific sub-motion, then you can be pretty sure it is used in the ATP or WTA. Tilting the racket shaft down is one sub-motion and tossing arm invertion is another. Some call this "commonalities".
 
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