How does Murray qualify for GOAT/ATG status?

F

FudgeControl

Banned
You tell me. He is a good player, but certainly undeserving of GOAT or ATG. He is also the weakest link of the Big 4. Big 4 does not exist, technically. Big 3 and that is it.

-0 weeks at #1

-Negative H2H against all other "Big 4" members

-Only 3 slams, in comparison to 12, 14, 17

-Most titles won are ATP 250 titles

-Fewest number of titles of "Big 4"

-3-8 GS Finals record


And he is still considered an "ATG" by his fans? Please tell me this is all a dream...
 
If only we could harness the power of Murray-bashing. We could make the world a better place. Free energy for everyone driven by the relentless keyboard mashing and brow furroughing of Murray-bashers.

We need more players like Murray to realise this vast untapped resource.
 
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OP clearly a hater of Murray and chooses to focus on Murray's 250 wins like thats all he does. If you view him as a ATG or not, the fact remains that Murray is a great player that has peaked in an era with 3 of the greatest players to ever play tennis. Yes he is the weakest member of the Big 4 but people saying he is closer to the rest of the tour are deluded. He has been right there in SF and finals with the Big 4 and has lost the finals to them and ONLY them. Observe:

Murray at Slams:
8 played
3 won
Has he lost any finals to anyone outside the Big 4? No.

Murray at masters 1000:
18 played
12 won
Has he lost any finals to anyone outside the Big 4? No.

Murray at 500:
7 played
6 won
Has he lost any finals to anyone outside the Big 4? No.
 
Who's calling Murray GOAT here? I'm not (except jokingly) and I doubt other fans are either - but Murray bashing does seem to be a popular pastime on TTW :mad:
 
Players with 6 majors (Wilander, Becker, Edberg) are normally included into the ATG group.
Considering Murray's overall success outside of GS wins, and the fact that he has been blocked massively but three Tier 1 ATGs, winning 5 majors makes it for me. So, two more, and I'll concede that he's an all-time great.
 
AnOctorokForDinner said:
Players with 6 majors (Wilander, Becker, Edberg) are normally included into the ATG group.
Considering Murray's overall success outside of GS wins, and the fact that he has been blocked massively but three Tier 1 ATGs, winning 5 majors makes it for me. So, two more, and I'll concede that he's an all-time great.
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I agree. If he can get two more and especially if he wins them from Novak, He is inducted in the ATG. He has a lot of tennis left in him.

Poisoned Slice said:
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socks and sandals. ha. with a trench coat and a modeling pose. What are you doing Andy?
 
AnOctorokForDinner said:
Players with 6 majors (Wilander, Becker, Edberg) are normally included into the ATG group.
Considering Murray's overall success outside of GS wins, and the fact that he has been blocked massively but three Tier 1 ATGs, winning 5 majors makes it for me. So, two more, and I'll concede that he's an all-time great.
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I go the opposite way. Wilander (who has more than 6 slams, BTW), Becker, and Edberg faced off against a much deeper pool of potential slam winners, and in an era when nobody could be a threat at four slams a year, since it was orders of magnitude more difficult to win on both the fast and the slow surfaces in an era when the best of the best pros almost always specialized for one or the other.

Winning five slams in the era of surface homogenization, when fewer people are legitimate threats to boot, is nowhere near the accomplishment 6 slams was in that era. I'd set the bar at more like 8 or 9 to be considered a peer with those guys.
 
Krish872007 said:
Who's calling Murray GOAT here? I'm not (except jokingly) and I doubt other fans are either - but Murray bashing does seem to be a popular pastime on TTW :mad:
Click to expand...
I only meant ATG, sorry! Roasting Murray is my new favorite pasttime :P

Plot twist: Hail Kyrgios. Gurufils means nothing to me now...
 
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If he wins a couple more slams, we could group him with Wilander (half step below atg). If he wins a couple more slams, the WTF, and obtains the #1 ranking, we could group him with Becker and Edberg (low tier atg).
 
Terenigma said:
OP clearly a hater of Murray and chooses to focus on Murray's 250 wins like thats all he does. If you view him as a ATG or not, the fact remains that Murray is a great player that has peaked in an era with 3 of the greatest players to ever play tennis. Yes he is the weakest member of the Big 4 but people saying he is closer to the rest of the tour are deluded. He has been right there in SF and finals with the Big 4 and has lost the finals to them and ONLY them. Observe:

Murray at Slams:
8 played
3 won
Has he lost any finals to anyone outside the Big 4? No.

Murray at masters 1000:
18 played
12 won
Has he lost any finals to anyone outside the Big 4? No.

Murray at 500:
7 played
6 won
Has he lost any finals to anyone outside the Big 4? No.
Click to expand...
Murray at the Year End Championships:
22 played
11 won
Has he even made it to the finals there? No.

If he wants to cement his place as an ATG, he'd better focus there too. Great player, no doubt. But he has to do better than that.
 
WhiskeyEE said:
If he wins a couple more slams, we could group him with Wilander (half step below atg). If he wins a couple more slams, the WTF, and obtains the #1 ranking, we could group him with Becker and Edberg (low tier atg).
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I guess so. He lacks a high number of titles. Playing style is good, but somehow he slips. With Lendl, that's not really the case. At that point, only injuries and distractions can stop him.
 
1) Win 5 slams (absolute non-negotiable)
2) Beat Djokovic in at least 2 more slam matches
3) Don't turn out to be an absolute pigeon of Djokovic over the next 2 years like he was in 2014-15
4) A WTF or a stint at World No. 1
5) Keep his consistency high in the Masters - get to 15.
 
If his peers were like Serena's peers, he'd be at least an 8-time major winner and be able to clock more than 100 weeks as #1, without Lendl.
 
He'll eventually get to Becker/Edberg level and become an ATG...

Sent from my SM-G900W8 using Tapatalk
 
I don't even think the most delusional fanboys of Muzz have ever claimed him as GOAT. That would be hysterical to suggest, though some are suggesting he's an ATG with three slams. Amazing.

"He'll eventually get to Becker/Edberg level and become an ATG..."

Please list the players who have won 3 majors after turning 29. It's a VERY short list.
 
BeatlesFan said:
"He'll eventually get to Becker/Edberg level and become an ATG..."
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I'm not even his fan... Yet I belive he could. Who's going to stop him? Nole can not win absolutely everything in next two years (as much as I'd like it :) ). It's up to Muzz to keep on playing at high level and take his chances.

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A bit premature to call Murray an ATG. I would consider it if he were to have at least 10 GS titles. I do not believe you can blame his lack of achievement on his competition. What ifs don't count. You can only play the people that are in your 'era' and saying otherwise is an exercise in fruitless speculation.
 
BeatlesFan said:
I don't even think the most delusional fanboys of Muzz have ever claimed him as GOAT. That would be hysterical to suggest, though some are suggesting he's an ATG with three slams. Amazing.

"He'll eventually get to Becker/Edberg level and become an ATG..."

Please list the players who have won 3 majors after turning 29. It's a VERY short list.
Click to expand...
I agree but I think Murray CAN do it under 2 conditions:
1) he has to win all of them in the next 2 years at most
2) Djokovic has to lose in some of them

I don't think there's any player (currently) who can beat Murray in a Slam when he's playing well other than Djokovic. Federer and Nadal are done winning Slams, Wawrinka has used up all his mana (I think. He got pwned by Murray at the FO mind you) and the new generations are very weak.
 
tennis_pro said:
I agree but I think Murray CAN do it under 2 conditions:
1) he has to win all of them in the next 2 years at most
2) Djokovic has to lose in some of them

I don't think there's any player (currently) who can beat Murray in a Slam when he's playing well other than Djokovic. Federer and Nadal are done winning Slams, Wawrinka has used up all his mana (I think. He got pwned by Murray at the FO mind you) and the new generations are very weak.
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You don't think Stan playing well could beat him?? Or Federer when healthy?
 
Noveson said:
You don't think Stan playing well could beat him?? Or Federer when healthy?
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They can, they're just no likely to show up again. Wawrinka hasn't done anything this year and even lost to Murray at the FO. Federer will only begin training in December at 35,5 years of age and before he gets in any kind of form on a surface which favors him (grass or medium/fast HC) he'll be 36. I believe Federer is done as a top 3 player. Wawrinka will stay in the top 4/5 by default just beause the tour sucks right now.
 
If he completes the grand slam then he will be an ATG in my eyes (all four majors + 5 overall grand slams)

Just hope he doesn't act as Djokovic's pigeon again like he has done for most of his career apart from US open 12 and Wimby 13.

This era is pathetically weak, so Murray should have no trouble winning Wimbledon again. I'd rank him favourite there unless GOATerer makes a comeback - in which case he becomes favourite.
 
BeatlesFan said:
I don't even think the most delusional fanboys of Muzz have ever claimed him as GOAT. That would be hysterical to suggest, though some are suggesting he's an ATG with three slams. Amazing.

"He'll eventually get to Becker/Edberg level and become an ATG..."

Please list the players who have won 3 majors after turning 29. It's a VERY short list.
Click to expand...

I predict Djokovic and Murray to dominate the slams next two years...

So they make that list. Even say 30.
 
Well seriously... If Novaks level should drop for any reason, Murray has a good chance to collect a huge amount of slams in the next years. But the way the big 3 have been dominating him for years, he will probably never qualify for GOAT/ATG.
 
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Goat status? No... doesn't have the slam count or h2h for that. ATG? Maybe through his 2 Wimbledons. If you look at the 2+ Wimbledon champions, then I think most if not all would qualify for ATG. If Murray was to win a 3rd Wimbledon then denying him ATG status would look a little ridiculous.
 
killerboi2 said:
Goat status? No... doesn't have the slam count or h2h for that. ATG? Maybe through his 2 Wimbledons. If you look at the 2+ Wimbledon champions, then I think most if not all would qualify for ATG. If Murray was to win a 3rd Wimbledon then denying him ATG status would look a little ridiculous.
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Every other player with 2+ Wimbledon titles is an ATG, but every other player with 2 Wimbledon titles has 6+ Majors.
 
Terenigma said:
OP clearly a hater of Murray and chooses to focus on Murray's 250 wins like thats all he does. If you view him as a ATG or not, the fact remains that Murray is a great player that has peaked in an era with 3 of the greatest players to ever play tennis. Yes he is the weakest member of the Big 4 but people saying he is closer to the rest of the tour are deluded. He has been right there in SF and finals with the Big 4 and has lost the finals to them and ONLY them. Observe:

Murray at Slams:
8 played
3 won
Has he lost any finals to anyone outside the Big 4? No.

Murray at masters 1000:
18 played
12 won
Has he lost any finals to anyone outside the Big 4? No.

Murray at 500:
7 played
6 won
Has he lost any finals to anyone outside the Big 4? No.
Click to expand...
^^^ Murray is going to be a controversial player to place after he retires. People are so results oriented but context implies Murray is very close to the level of a low end ATG. His consistency against everyone besides the 3 modern GOAT contenders is phenomenal. Yes he's a notch below the 3 but that shouldn't relegate him to Hewiit status.
 
buscemi said:
Every other player with 2+ Wimbledon titles is an ATG, but every other player with 2 Wimbledon titles has 6+ Majors.
Click to expand...

Be that as it may, there is still an argument for Murray being an ATG because of this. Let's take Becker for instance. How often do people really talk about his other titles and stuff. Most people remember him for what he done at Wimbledon.
 
Hard to give him flake for not having any weeks at #1. He's in a very top heavy era which players arguably top 10-15 of all time (Federer, Nadal, Djokovic).
 
killerboi2 said:
Be that as it may, there is still an argument for Murray being an ATG because of this. Let's take Becker for instance. How often do people really talk about his other titles and stuff. Most people remember him for what he done at Wimbledon.
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I think a lot of people talk about his 6 Major titles, handful of WTF titles, and collection of "Masters Series" titles.
 
buscemi said:
I think a lot of people talk about his 6 Major titles, handful of WTF titles, and collection of "Masters Series" titles.
Click to expand...

Murray would be equivalent to Becker if he had just taken a couple of those AO's! Those were a lot of semi's and finals! It's not like his opposition made it easy for him, but not even trying to change it up makes it look all the worse! It's one of the reason players like Berdych, Ferrer, Tsonga, Cilic, Del Po and so many others who NEVER change their approach; staying within their comfort zone only made it easier for Roger, Rafa, & Nole to own them "lock, stock, & barrel! Wawrinka broke out of that group and sneaked a couple majors and Masters! Between the rest Cilic & Del Po have lone Slams @ USO and they share a handful of Masters! Andy has more in him than that super defensive game, pretty much just running everything down and waiting for his opponent to keel over! I've seen him volley, but he still rather let the ball bounce than to take it out of the air and attack to finish points off quicker! Silly after so many chances so if he's not even close to Becker with more of a game, it's his own fault! :rolleyes: :p ;)
 
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Not too much actually.

For one, a lot of people seem to think he wins an AO if Djokovic is out of his way. That's 3/4 of the Slams and making a French Open Final indicates he could conceivably win one.

Obviously this takes him to 5 Majors anyway and many seem to believe he's likely to get another Wimbledon crown so that's 6 and I certainly consider Becker an ATG.
 
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