How does one add a bit of topspin to the flat serve?

[Kevo]

go to youtube ang search for analysis of Federer first serve vs second serve and study the tapes. Spin is a result of the strings brushing across the ball at contact. The more angle across the ball at contact, the more spin. You'll see from the videos that Federer swings up and across on both his serves. The difference is there is more brush angle on his 2nd serve vs is 1st serve. He also tosses the ball closer to his body and more at 11:30 (to his L) for a 2nd serve. But, he still get up and across in his racket swing path when he toss more to the R and in front for a 1st serve

Federer rarely hits a flat first serve.

 

[TennisCJC]

Federer rarely hits a flat first serve.

True, but that's my point. He hits a lot of spin on average on his 1st serve and even a lot more spin on his 2nd serve. Pete Sampras was very similar too in that his 1st serve had a lot of spin. So, that's 2 of the greatest servers in history that hit a lot of spin on their 1st serves. Even Isner at 6' 10" tall hits a lot of spin on his 1st serve on average. Yet, you go down to the local tennis court and see a 5' 8" tall tennis player hitting serves with near zero spin as hard as they can and then wondering why only 10% go into the court.

 

[Kevo]

True, but that's my point. He hits a lot of spin on average on his 1st serve and even a lot more spin on his 2nd serve. Pete Sampras was very similar too in that his 1st serve had a lot of spin. So, that's 2 of the greatest servers in history that hit a lot of spin on their 1st serves. Even Isner at 6' 10" tall hits a lot of spin on his 1st serve on average. Yet, you go down to the local tennis court and see a 5' 8" tall tennis player hitting serves with near zero spin as hard as they can and then wondering why only 10% go into the court.

Pete Sampras first serve did have a lot of spin, but it was often "flat". Federer's has a lot of spin, but it's not often "flat".

I was just trying to explain how to hit a "flat" serve with a lot of spin like Sampras did. I'm not trying to say that's the way you should always hit your first serve. In fact I mentioned earlier I also rarely hit it. I do on occasion hit it, and sometimes it even goes in. This past weekend playing doubles my partner was having a bad time up at net and missed 3 put aways. So down 0-40 I hit the "flat" serve (with spin) for an ace. My partner says, "Smart. Just don't let me touch it and we might win this game." I believe that was the first time during the set I tried to hit the big flat.

Anyway, I was trying to address the OP's question directly, but a better answer for many people might be to just not bother with the flat serve in the first place since it's frequently over rated. It is however a lot of fun to hit unreturnable bombs every now and then.

 

[chrisb]

I can't say I have a brilliant kick but it does seem to bounce differently and draw errors.

The checkpoints I use:

Eastern BH grip
Toss high directly over my head
Move racquet from 7 to 1
Snap wrist down so racquet ends down with elbow up and on right side of my body

In the Kick serve the wrist slides across the ball never down Gravity -9.81T^2 position function equation -9.81T^2 + Vv0 +C physics refutes your premise either you are doing that wrist snap after release or u are over 7 ft

 

[vex]

In the Kick serve the wrist slides across the ball never down Gravity -9.81T^2 position function equation -9.81T^2 + Vv0 +C physics refutes your premise either you are doing that wrist snap after release or u are over 7 ft

Yah he said that wrong. The wrist snaps UP (technically its moving sideways inside to out from your body) naturally when you're accellerating up the ball during the kick serve. After contact your arm/forearm rotates and the wrist/racket end up pointing down.

 

[TennisDawg]

My first, flat serve, is for my level of play, rather good. Placement is OK (could improve), with good pace.

The problem is that it’s completely flat, too flat I would say. This leads to: 1. Low net clearance, and consequently more misses (a minor issue, % in is alright). And, more importantly, 2. The ball loses too much energy after the bounce. It isn’t as heavy as it could be (it stays low). When my opponents get used to the pace, they can just stand back, and quite comfortably block it back.

Once in a blue moon (every 300th attempt or so) I manage to get the action I’m seaking; and it’s almost always an ace or forced error. Unfortunately I have no idea what I do diffrently those times. I know how to hit a topspin serve, so it should be an easy feat to add a bit of spin one could assume. But to me a flat serve and a topspin serve have totally different swing paths, and to merge the two seems almost impossible.

Does anybody have any pointers on how to get more of that ”returning a bowling ball”-action on the flat serve?

This may have been covered by some other posters. It seems like an “exercise in futility” to try and hit a kick serve, flat serve hybrid. After trophy pose the two serves are totally different. Your main question seems to be wanting a bigger bounce, a heavier ball on your flat serve. In order to hit that type of flat serve it has to be hit at a high contact point. If you are tall that’s much easier, if you are short that’s very hard. If you hit without loading legs properly and with a shallow toss your serve will be flat but with a low bounce. If you toss farther into the court and load your legs and leave the ground at contact you will have a higher contact point. Much easier said than done.

 

[J011yroger]

This may have been covered by some other posters. It seems like an “exercise in futility” to try and hit a kick serve, flat serve hybrid. After trophy pose the two serves are totally different. Your main question seems to be wanting a bigger bounce, a heavier ball on your flat serve. In order to hit that type of flat serve it has to be hit at a high contact point. If you are tall that’s much easier, if you are short that’s very hard. If you hit without loading legs properly and with a shallow toss your serve will be flat but with a low bounce. If you toss farther into the court and load your legs and leave the ground at contact you will have a higher contact point. Much easier said than done.

Completely incorrect.

J

 

[Curiosity]

....................
...............
2. The ball loses too much energy after the bounce. It isn’t as heavy as it could be (it stays low). ..............

It sounds to me, from your second point, that your racquet face is already starting downward slightly at contact, inducing a bit of underspin. That can happen if you keep your hitting shoulder tight through contact or toss too far out front. You can experiment with changing those. I would suggest checking three things, or experimenting with them: 1. Assuming you do pronate (internally rotate...) directly into contact, try keeping a bit more angle of the racquet handle relative to your forearm as you extend your hitting arm up to contact. This will add power if you pronate effectively into contact. Combined with 2, that's useful. 2. Relax and extend your shoulder up into contact. (Continue to let the shoulder relax and internally rotate in the follow-through for shoulder safety.) The greater angle of handle to forearm is a general rule, as is the pronation (or ISR...) into contact. If you let your shoulder extend and relax just into and through contact, you'll generate a slight amount of top slice and the ball will come up as expected on the bounce. 3. Check the angle of your racquet head's swing path. It shouldn't be directly in line with your target, but should go slightly left to right (if you're a righty), while the angle of the racquet face at contact will determine the critical aiming...provided the racquet face and swing path aren't extremely divergent. That swing path, joined to extension up into the hit, will add a small bit of slice to the slight top, thus top-slice, approximately. It's still a relatively flat first serve, but heavier.

 

[TennisDawg]

Completely incorrect.

J

Okay your turn.

 

[J011yroger]

Okay your turn.

Maybe later but first let's revisit your earlier post on the topic.

J

 

[J011yroger]

I worked on that type serve over the summer and early fall. I found if I focused on getting the tip down and butt cap pointing up the ball bounced very high with some heat on it. I had to do it very quickly after contact and yes hitting at 12oclock was best. When I hit the ball above the sweet spot (more towards the tip) the ball had great pace and height, but it was by accident. I’ve often wondered if elite players do that deliberately.

See above.

J

 

[MasterZeb]

I’m assuming you know how to hit a kick serve. If so, adjust toss. If not, learn the kick serve first