MathieuR
Hall of Fame
Increase at the moment the ball hits the stringbed.
How does pre stretch amount affect playability (e.g., 10% vs 20%)
- Thread starter ryohazuki222
- Start date
ryohazuki222
Hall of Fame
Following this line of thinking and this verbiage: here’s my question….
Would pre stretching reduce the resilience of the string?
travlerajm
Talk Tennis Guru
No. quite the opposite. Pre-Stretching increases the resilience of the string.
travlerajm
Talk Tennis Guru
Some people tend to abuse the English language by using words without paying attention to what the words actually mean.
ryohazuki222
Hall of Fame
This is what I was meaning earlier when saying I was struggling with wordsSome people tend to abuse the English language by using words without paying attention to what the words actually mean.
.The words themselves and also the meanings. English is hard
. Often the “misused” word definition becomes more common than the technically accurate word definition.
travlerajm
Talk Tennis Guru
The usrsa is using ‘resilience’ correctly, but misappropriating the word ‘elasticity.’
BTW, travlerajm, the USRSA was the source for my use of the words elasticity and resilience.
MathieuR
Hall of Fame
There is a lot of discussion and some people are deliberately derailing the subject (@drakulie ).
Why is it such a step to:
- do the test I proposed, and find out for yourself that you do NOT kill elasticity when prestretching
- bite the bullet, and string your racket using prestretching. (Labor-intensive, I know; and don't forget to lower your ref.tension!)
Why is it such a step to:
- do the test I proposed, and find out for yourself that you do NOT kill elasticity when prestretching
- bite the bullet, and string your racket using prestretching. (Labor-intensive, I know; and don't forget to lower your ref.tension!)
travlerajm
Talk Tennis Guru
If it’s my own racquets, it’s not really labor intensive if I consider that I hate stringing.
The thorough manual pre-stretching step takes me 10 extra minutes total (5 minutes main, 5 minutes cross).
But if I don’t prestretch, I’m going to want to cut the strings out after a few hours of play.
Conversely, if I prestretch, I can get great playability until the strings break. And since I’m not really a string breaker, that might mean 50 to 100 hours of play before I need to expend labor on stringing again.
Sometimes I wonder if folks who string for a livelihood are deliberately knocking prestretching because it is a threat to their income?
If every rec player pre-stretched like I do, it would put most stringers out of business.
Nah. Regardless of the level of player, a very small percentage restrings prior to breakage. Maybe they break the strings quickly, maybe they're playing with a string that lasts, maybe they're uneducated, maybe they just don't care. The ones that I do get unbroken are usually because they felt they 'should', and it's often been a year or two since it was done.
Admittedly I'm a hobbyist stringer, but 90% of my 'business' comes from repeat custom from the performance juniors and high level adults. The ones who put in hours on court and break strings frequently. I could stop stringing for all my recreational players and barely notice a difference in volume.
ryohazuki222
Hall of Fame
This is a pretty interesting topic to me.
I string my own. I just don’t have the time I used to string. The only reason I’m even exploring pre stretching is, in fact, to reduce my stringing frequency. (If you’re wondering why I don’t just get my rackets strung somewhere… well… in the funniest way, it’s faster/less hassle for me to just string myself.)
At this point, there still seems to be potential. My preferences fall in a window of not too tight and not too loose (duh) but I’ve noticed that the tighter I go the longer the racket “lasts” until it dips below the point where I’d rather re string. Then I reached a point where it’s just too tight for my preference to start.
Pre stretching seems like the right solution to experiment with that problem.
What I’m hoping to get out of it is 1-2 more weekends of hitting. If this happens; I actually restring quite less: multiple rackets, restrung less frequently on a recurring basis. If I was paying for stringing, I mean, that wouldn’t be trivial savings.
(Not suggesting most folks would fall under this pattern, just that it’s funny to see the mention of conspiracy when it aligns kind of closely with my personal intentions.)
10shoe
Professional
Hi travlerajm,
So, could you please describe your method of manual pre-stretching that takes 10 minutes? When I did manually pre-stretch years ago, I think I could maybe do it for 30 seconds and basically I attached one end of the string to a fence and held the other end with a pair of long nosed pliers while standing 40 ft away on the front lawn making like a water skier.
travlerajm
Talk Tennis Guru
I tie a loop of heavy twine around an inanimate object like a pole, doorknob, or end of bar countertop, then tie the end of string to the twine. This way the string isn’t bend around inanimate object which could cause breakage.
I tie other end of 20-foot piece (or longer if mains or shorter if crosses), around a wrench handle or racquet handle.
Then I lean into the string, keeping one leg out to brace for safety, just in case the string breaks at a defect point or at a knot. I don’t want to go sprawling.
I note the starting relaxed length by marking where the wrench or racquet handle starts.
Then I lean my body weight sideways about 30 deg angle and pulse my body weight into it repeatedly. After each several pulses, I recheck the length. I don’t do it with my arms - I keep arms in close to my body so that I don’t have to use and muscle. Just using my body weight and descend onto the bracing leg bounce back up. The length will stop growing when the prestretch is complete.
For a 20-foot starting length of poly. It will typically grow by about 7 inches permanent elongation (or about 6” for strings that were factory prestretched). You can also tell when you’re done by feel when you’ve done it a few times, because the resilience increases with each pulse and you can feel the string getting bouncier and livelier as you prestretch.
10shoe
Professional
Ok, so the reason people like myself who string for a living don't do what you describe above is because it would add 10 minutes to each string job. There was a time many moons ago that I fantasized about installing a series of pulleys in my shop that would allow me to pre-stretch manually indoors and I pictured a large heavy weight at the end of the string, with perhaps a ruler next to it as a gauge. I never got past the fantasy stage tho.
But what you are describing is truly pre-stretch and what the OP is asking about is machine pre-stretch which I think you would agree is a misnomer. Machine pre-stretch should really be called "over-tensioning". For someone like yourself who is stringing at 62 lbs, 10% machine pre-stretch would mean the constant pull tensioner hitting 68 lbs momentarily and then hopefully dropping back to 62 inside the frame if string to grommet friction and string to string friction don't prevent it. Likewise with 20% pre-stretch the initial pull would be 74 lbs. This is nothing like what you are doing.
Additionally, OP will be stringing constant pull and he will no longer be able to roll the tension head right up to the frame edge. The tensioner will always be several inches from the frame edge, so the length of string between the frame and the tensioner will receive an unintended pre-stretch at full tension seconds before it is tensioned a second time. I suspect that this may actually be a bigger difference between lockout and constant pull than the amount of dwell time. Some day when I have no racquets waiting I will test this by stringing a racquet using a starting clamp bridge to pull every string right from the edge of the frame.
Anyway, thanks for quick and detailed reply.
travlerajm
Talk Tennis Guru
I built a string stretcher with a 5-foot tall steel bar frame step ladder and a set of pulleys, and weightlifting disk weights.
It worked well, using 80-lb of disk weight to tension the string to 80 lbs. I would let it hang over night.
except that by going around 5 pulleys, it multiplied the 80-lb tension by 5x that the step ladder felt.
The steel step ladder was rated for 400 lbs, and after a couple weeks of use, the step ladder got crushed under the 500-lb load.
Irvin
Talk Tennis Guru
It makes sense to me that machine pre-stretching like you’re talking about would be a good idea. I would try pre-stretching @ 20% - 25% to begin with to eliminate as much of the string’s plasticity as possible. Try it first only on your rackets until you know more about it then you may suggest it to your clients if you string for others.
If pre-stretching had a negative effect on strings you would not see so many people pre-stretching guitar and piano strings when tuning. Resiliency is a string’s ability to return back to the original shape after stress. Plastic deformation of a string can not be recovered. So with continued hitting, a string bed will be plasticly deformed and the string elasticity takes over to return the string back into position. The string’s elasticity is what keeps the tension in the string.
am1899
Legend
Lol, that’s rich.
Nah.
The assumption some of you continue to make is that because pre stretching works for you, that it will work for everyone.
Trinity110
Semi-Pro
Borg famously (allegedly) would put the racquet on the ground and stand on his strings after restringing. That did.......something. Who knows what? (but we will all hypothesize!)
Maybe some people just like the feel of pre-stretched. Maybe the strings are "ruined" (not saying they are) but that is what feels right. Many people, myself included, like the feeling of their strings when they are about 6 hours old. Why? Maybe they are where they would have been if they had been pre-stretched. Or maybe not.
I am not trying to say it is all a mystery, just that to pre-stretch or to not pre-stretch might just be preference, or maybe just what feels familiar. And familiar is "better" in a way.
Maybe some people just like the feel of pre-stretched. Maybe the strings are "ruined" (not saying they are) but that is what feels right. Many people, myself included, like the feeling of their strings when they are about 6 hours old. Why? Maybe they are where they would have been if they had been pre-stretched. Or maybe not.
I am not trying to say it is all a mystery, just that to pre-stretch or to not pre-stretch might just be preference, or maybe just what feels familiar. And familiar is "better" in a way.
travlerajm
Talk Tennis Guru
I recall hearing that Borg strung his wood racquets at 80 lbs.
MathieuR
Hall of Fame
I don't think it will work for everyone.
What annoys me, is that there are people that claim it cannot work, and refuse to try it themselves. ( Deny that a prestretched string still has (almost) all its elasticity, and refuse to do the simple test I proposed)
10shoe
Professional
@travlerajm
When you string those 95 sq in racquets with the 18x20 patterns at 62 lbs is that constant pull or lockout? Thanks!
When you string those 95 sq in racquets with the 18x20 patterns at 62 lbs is that constant pull or lockout? Thanks!
travlerajm
Talk Tennis Guru
Dropweight. But my gamma clamps probably lose tension compared to more professional tooling.
am1899
Legend
You’re fighting windmills in your own head. Nobody has said, “it can’t work.” Some people have simply indicated that doing so is not their preference, that’s all.
That this thread has devolved into you “correcting” people, arguing over definitions, accusing a very knowledgeable and helpful long standing member here of derailing the thread, etc…none of that reflects well upon you.
MathieuR
Hall of Fame
Well, @am1899 , I am quoting a few posts in this thread:
then I wrote this:
@am1899, respect for a person does not guaranty that that person is always right. @drakulie is wrong here.
then I wrote this:
and @drakulie reacts, in a way that I see as "derailing" ; he does not react on what I wrote, he jumps to a strawman falacy
Then you argue "it is all in my head". I just showed you it is a group of posters that have opinions, but no facts and arguments
And that group of posters is o so happy to support everyone who just have an opinion, without arguments.
am1899
Legend
MathieuR
Hall of Fame
Same here. It is useless to discuss colors with people who deliberately keep their eyes shut, and claim the world is black.
travlerajm
Talk Tennis Guru
‘The reasonable man adapts himself to the world around him; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.’
am1899
Legend
Nobody wants to have a discussion with know-it-all types who are fixated upon “proving” people right and wrong. (As evidenced by drakulie’s departure from the thread).
Trinity110
Semi-Pro
Such restraint! Admirable. ;-)
Hulger
Semi-Pro
This is so mongoloid logic that I’m ashamed to be european also. Yeah every hit increases string tension momentarily = stretches the string, BUT
Basically you are earlier stating that prestretching doesn’t reduce elastic properties, and then you suddenly offer us an example where prestreched string wouldn’t elongate anymore when hitting a ball which would basically mean zero elastic capability.
Try to sling a fresh rubber band and compare it to old dry stretched one, which one slings further? Jesus
Any kind of stretching breaks those elastic electrical bonds between molecules and hence the string loses its capacity to restore energy when stretched.
Prestretched string will feel stiff and dead - not springy and lively
travlerajm
Talk Tennis Guru
The dried-out old brittle rubber band is a poor analogy.
Rubber bands get stiffer and more brittle as they age because chemical reactions add cross links. This doesn’t really apply to the polyester tennis string discussion.
However, if you take a fresh rubber band and prestretch it, it obviously becomes more resilient (ie, more elastic and less plastic).
Rubber bands get stiffer and more brittle as they age because chemical reactions add cross links. This doesn’t really apply to the polyester tennis string discussion.
However, if you take a fresh rubber band and prestretch it, it obviously becomes more resilient (ie, more elastic and less plastic).
Hulger
Semi-Pro
Total BS. The same wearing happens to any elastic material under continuous stretch.
If I force myself to try to understand your logic, you are only right in that part that a prestretched string job keeps its initial tension better.
10shoe
Professional
So, getting back to the OP's question which was:
Is someone here suggesting that using 20% will make the racquet feel livelier?
@MathieuR ? Livelier?
How does pre stretch amount affect playability (e.g., 10% vs 20%)
I believe if you string one racquet with 10% and another with 20%, the one with 20% will feel deader. BTW, I'm gonna insist that if OP is accustomed to stringing his racquet at 50 lbs for instance that he not change that in any way. That with his machine set to 10% the initial pull will be 50+5=55 lbs and with 20% the initial pull will be 50+10= 60 lbs.Is someone here suggesting that using 20% will make the racquet feel livelier?
@MathieuR ? Livelier?
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am1899
Legend
I would agree with the first premise (as far as “deadness”). But I recognize feel is very subjective, so “dead” to me could be “gold” for someone else.
As far as tension, I agree it might make sense for OP to start at his go to tension, as then there is one less variable that has been changed in the equation. But I also wouldn’t be averse to changing that tension number down the line - if the first trials don’t reach a desired result.
Shroud
Talk Tennis Guru
I have a WISE and because I string at 86lbs the prestretch feature does't work.
So I manually prestrech with a string tied to a fence and the other end wrapped around a thick rod that I lean on and pulse like Travlerajm described, though I don't measure, but just go to it feels stretched or I get tired.
Then I string and on the mains "walk" tension over the mains while the machine is pulling the machine spikes up to the mid 90s. I also keep it running on the crosses while I string the next cross, and because I am slow af each cross is pulled for 20 seconds or more.
Strings are Ashaway kevlar (mains)/ Lux 4g (crosses). Though I occasionally do Ashaway liberty nylon as a cross. I want the tightest stiffest stringbed I can get. I find that this gets the highest DT measurements and the strings last the longest. If there was a coated kevlar that would allow snapback, I would happily use that as a cross.
FWIW some polys and Ashaway Monogut zx don't like such treatment and the stringbed will just keep elongating on every hit.
I wonder how it feels to hit with a racquet stung at so high tensions but I don't like high tensions so I don't tryI have a WISE and because I string at 86lbs the prestretch feature does't work.
So I manually prestrech with a string tied to a fence and the other end wrapped around a thick rod that I lean on and pulse like Travlerajm described, though I don't measure, but just go to it feels stretched or I get tired.
Then I string and on the mains "walk" tension over the mains while the machine is pulling the machine spikes up to the mid 90s. I also keep it running on the crosses while I string the next cross, and because I am slow af each cross is pulled for 20 seconds or more.
Strings are Ashaway kevlar (mains)/ Lux 4g (crosses). Though I occasionally do Ashaway liberty nylon as a cross. I want the tightest stiffest stringbed I can get. I find that this gets the highest DT measurements and the strings last the longest. If there was a coated kevlar that would allow snapback, I would happily use that as a cross.
FWIW some polys and Ashaway Monogut zx don't like such treatment and the stringbed will just keep elongating on every hit.
Does it feel like hitting with a wooden plank?
travlerajm
Talk Tennis Guru
Due to reduction in spray rate, it gives the illusion that a 3.5 is a 4.0.I wonder how it feels to hit with a racquet stung at so high tensions but I don't like high tensions so I don't try
Does it feel like hitting with a wooden plank?
Shroud
Talk Tennis Guru
It does feel really stiff. The racquet is stiff at 70 ra but its a 110" and fairly open. If you like "ball pocketing" its def not for you. My SW is super high so the tensions are needed to tamp down the power. IME, tension tracks with SW.I wonder how it feels to hit with a racquet stung at so high tensions but I don't like high tensions so I don't try
Does it feel like hitting with a wooden plank?
Shroud
Talk Tennis Guru
LOL. If this is reduced spray rate I would never get a ball in with a normal setup.
Anyhow its a illusion the USTA bought when coach wanted me to appeal and play 3.5 singles. They said no and kept me at 4.0.
Irvin
Talk Tennis Guru
Thought you might be interested so I did a little experiment of my own. I generally use SG and Multi strings but thought I would switch to a co-poly multi string (Tecnifibre X-Code which is extinct,) for my trial. I dropped the reference tension 10% from my normal co-poly tension, and used a 20% pre-stretch. Just wanted some systematic approach to machine pre-stretching. Not bad for the first time out, after playing around with it for a while I will probably adjust the reference tension up and or down until I find a reference tension I like, while staying with the 20% machine pre-stretch. After finding a reference tension I like I may try to drop the pre-stretch percentage to find a reference tension / pre-stretch % combination I can live with. It is not labor intensive at all as the machine settles in on reference tension about as quickly as if I didn‘t use the machine pre-stretch.
ryohazuki222
Hall of Fame
What’s interesting about this thread is that I was surprised of the physical change to the string when stringing with prestretch.
During the pre stretch phase of tensioning you can tell the string is stretched more visually. (Ie, the print on the string is stretched out.) I *assumed* that it was temporary but when the tensioner reduces back down the the reference tension, the stretched out string (visually indicated via the font remaining stretched out).
Is this because of the strings im using or is that just how it works?
Reading the comments on here differentiating between terms seems to make sense to me.
My comparison is to about 20% of natural tension loss via hitting is not at all the same as 20% of extra stretch.
It *feels* and *looks* like machine pre stretching polys creates uniquely different playability characteristics. As in: it doesn’t appear to be as simple as what I expected based on my pre-reading.
During the pre stretch phase of tensioning you can tell the string is stretched more visually. (Ie, the print on the string is stretched out.) I *assumed* that it was temporary but when the tensioner reduces back down the the reference tension, the stretched out string (visually indicated via the font remaining stretched out).
Is this because of the strings im using or is that just how it works?
Reading the comments on here differentiating between terms seems to make sense to me.
My comparison is to about 20% of natural tension loss via hitting is not at all the same as 20% of extra stretch.
It *feels* and *looks* like machine pre stretching polys creates uniquely different playability characteristics. As in: it doesn’t appear to be as simple as what I expected based on my pre-reading.
travlerajm
Talk Tennis Guru
Yes. That’s how prestretching works. Un-prestretched string behaves more like silly putty or taffy, while fully prestretched string is bouncy and resilient like a rubber band. For more extreme example than poly to see the effect more obviously, try ashaway monogut zx.
ryohazuki222
Hall of Fame
Good reminder on the analogy. I remember my mind being blown reading something somewhere a while back about how the reaction of a substance can also depend on the specific type of force applied.
Used silly putty as an example. Soft and squishy with small, steady force applied. Very bounce with large, abrupt force applied.
Since then I’ve tried to use TWU string database’s “swing speed” attribute to see stiffness as it changes based on swing speed.
Funny thing is that THIS is why I ultimately decided I have to just try things out for myself. There are way too many variables at play…!
But that’s what makes it a fun hobby right?
Irvin
Talk Tennis Guru
@ryohazuki222 i don’t play much anymore I just hit so I’m not a good judge
Irvin
Talk Tennis Guru
@ryohazuki222 @travlerajm After some testing, and a few brain cramps, I believe the are advantages of both kinds of pre-stretching (manual and machine.) Manual pre-stretching removes the plasticity of the string without stressing the frame with higher tensions, and machine pre-stretching has the ability of giving you a more consistent tension on both sides of a cross. Because of the build up of friction by each main as the string is tensioned, both the amount of plasticity and tension if different on a single cross because of the main string’s friction points.
ryohazuki222
Hall of Fame
Makes sense to me. Another thing I realized machine pre stretching does is it helps the string feel tighter at the same tension.
Sure… above is “no duh”. BUT…. I’ve learned recently with all the customization I’ve been messing around with lately on rackets and strings that this is a really clever way to make something “tighter” without making it tighter.
Example… I could string mains/crosses at the same 50lbs. But maybe I don’t want to string my mains tighter by tension but I want them to feel tighter. I could prestretch just the mains.
Anyway, just interesting to know the different mechanisms available to achieve a final result.
Irvin
Talk Tennis Guru
Imagine a string bed that has not been pre-stretched. Every time you hit the ball you do 2 things. You stretch the string out elastically and plastically. The more a string has been plastically deformed at a fixed length (strung in a racket) the more the string has relaxed and the more tension has been lost. The lower the tension the more of an elastic stretch you will get considering each hit applies the same force. Now lower tension the more the ball pockets into the string bed, and the more of a trampoline effect you get, therefore the softer the string bed feels.
Removing more of the plasticity from the string keeps the tension higher ans you play, and the ball does not trampoline as much. Or anther way to say it the string bed feels stiffer.
ryohazuki222
Hall of Fame
This seems to articulate to me how this has felt during hitting the last few weeks.
Im still really weirded out by just how much difference the tensioning mechanisms and tensioning techniques impact the overall feel of the stringbed to me.
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