I can more or less understand the use of pronating your wrist and arm for a flat serve, and how it works. But when you're trying to do a top spin serve, I don't understand how you can simultaneously brush up the ball AND turn your wrist/arm so that the racket face is more open towards the ball - which I can see would help for a flat serve, but I don't understand for a kick serve. It seems to me that opening the racket face more towards the ball inhibits the ability to generate top spin.
How exactly does pronation help for a top spin serve?
- Thread starter yescomeon
- Start date
arche3
Banned
The pronation is to let you accelerate and then decelerate the racket head but on a top spin serve you hit it before you fully pronate. if you don't pronate you can't swing as fast.
tennis_ocd
Hall of Fame
Pronation (racket face opening) starts much earlier and is slower than that of a flat serve.
Topspin Shot
Legend
No, it's the opposite. Pronation starts later on any spin serve.
Yes, pronation is good for heavier impart forward spin.
WHEN you pronate depends on the grip you decide to use.
Players who serve flats with conti, often use a form of extreme backhand to hit twist and kick serves, but not always.
It's player preference, and a player CAN hit effective kick, topspin, and twist serves with almost any grip, once he figures it out.
WHEN you pronate depends on the grip you decide to use.
Players who serve flats with conti, often use a form of extreme backhand to hit twist and kick serves, but not always.
It's player preference, and a player CAN hit effective kick, topspin, and twist serves with almost any grip, once he figures it out.
I"ve seen plenty of good players hit twist serves using a strong eastern backhand grip, while their normal service grip for the other serves is conti with a slight turn towards backhand.
When I first learned the twist serve, I was using pure conti, and as I got better at it, migrated my grip more and more towards a full eastern backhand, but not quite there yet.
Lots of servers are more advanced than me.
When I first learned the twist serve, I was using pure conti, and as I got better at it, migrated my grip more and more towards a full eastern backhand, but not quite there yet.
Lots of servers are more advanced than me.
Are you sure you're not mixing up the various serves?
Eastern backhand is an EXTREME grip, used by few servers even at the top of the game.
There are infinite variations of grips between continental and eastern backhand.
It's easy to hit a slice serve out wide using a mild eastern backhand grip.
It's easy to hit a slice serve out wide using a pure continental grip.
It's easy to hit a slice serve out wide using a mild FOREhand grip.
The same for topspin and kick serves, you can use whatever you want, but almost always, the more extreme grips give more spin and hop to your spin serves.
Eastern backhand is an EXTREME grip, used by few servers even at the top of the game.
There are infinite variations of grips between continental and eastern backhand.
It's easy to hit a slice serve out wide using a mild eastern backhand grip.
It's easy to hit a slice serve out wide using a pure continental grip.
It's easy to hit a slice serve out wide using a mild FOREhand grip.
The same for topspin and kick serves, you can use whatever you want, but almost always, the more extreme grips give more spin and hop to your spin serves.
Raul_SJ
G.O.A.T.
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Boris Becker used a mild eastern forehand grip for almost all serves, flats, slices, topspins, and occasional twists.
Milos uses almost a full eastern backhand grip to hit all his serves.
Lots of pros switch between conti for flat serves and weak eastern backhand for topspin serves.
You do whatever you want.
Pancake servers, using a full forehand grip, can hit decent slice serves if they swing fast enough.
Milos uses almost a full eastern backhand grip to hit all his serves.
Lots of pros switch between conti for flat serves and weak eastern backhand for topspin serves.
You do whatever you want.
Pancake servers, using a full forehand grip, can hit decent slice serves if they swing fast enough.
Thanks for posting the vid, RaulSJ.
Now, why don't you read what President, Shroud, and RobFL have to say about my serves? I was off that day with President, having played 4 sets of doubles before he arrived, played one more with him, and was dead by the time we played some tiebreakers and later, against a 4.5 and older 4.0 guy.
Now, why don't you read what President, Shroud, and RobFL have to say about my serves? I was off that day with President, having played 4 sets of doubles before he arrived, played one more with him, and was dead by the time we played some tiebreakers and later, against a 4.5 and older 4.0 guy.
You are overthinking it.
Couple player's I know use almost a full eastern backhand to hit their twist serves, both guys real solid top of the heap 4.5's. They pronate into the ball to get higher RHS.
An old friend of mine back in the '70's used a weak eastern forehand grip to hit his twist serves, and while slower than the previous two guys, he played No.4 for CanadaCollege the following year, so was no slotch of a player.
Guys with more shoulder flexibility can use almost a backhand grip.
Couple player's I know use almost a full eastern backhand to hit their twist serves, both guys real solid top of the heap 4.5's. They pronate into the ball to get higher RHS.
An old friend of mine back in the '70's used a weak eastern forehand grip to hit his twist serves, and while slower than the previous two guys, he played No.4 for CanadaCollege the following year, so was no slotch of a player.
Guys with more shoulder flexibility can use almost a backhand grip.
What grip are YOU using to hit your twist serves?
I started with pure conti, moved it a little towards eBackhand, and now use closer to eBackhand than I do to pure continental.
My twist serves seem to bother most 4.5 level players, bouncing up well above their chin heights. President can attest to that, we played some pretty good players in doubles and all had trouble returning my SECOND serves.
Neither Shroud nor RobFL has seen my twist serves.
I started with pure conti, moved it a little towards eBackhand, and now use closer to eBackhand than I do to pure continental.
My twist serves seem to bother most 4.5 level players, bouncing up well above their chin heights. President can attest to that, we played some pretty good players in doubles and all had trouble returning my SECOND serves.
Neither Shroud nor RobFL has seen my twist serves.
RHS + Racket Head Speed.
Kick serve is a high bouncing serve that curves direction of flight path.
Twist serve is a high bouncing serve that bounces opposite direction of flight path.
Topspin serve is a moderate high, but faster than above serve, that usually bounce in direction of flight, but can also bounce straight vertical.
Kick serve is a high bouncing serve that curves direction of flight path.
Twist serve is a high bouncing serve that bounces opposite direction of flight path.
Topspin serve is a moderate high, but faster than above serve, that usually bounce in direction of flight, but can also bounce straight vertical.
From the server's perspective, rightie server, twist serve, ball arcs towards the left, hit's ground, and then bounces up and towards the RIGHT.
From my perspective, lefty serving, ball curves to my right off my racket, bounces, then curves up and to my LEFT.
Find your own video. When I learned the twist serve (1978), nobody learned from watching videos.
From my perspective, lefty serving, ball curves to my right off my racket, bounces, then curves up and to my LEFT.
Find your own video. When I learned the twist serve (1978), nobody learned from watching videos.
President
Legend
If this is still an issue, I can attest to that fact that LeeD's serves do have some pretty heavy action on them, and good pace as well when he is cranking them up. 100+ when he hits it pretty flat, and his kick/twist serves have a strong bounce on them. I've been practicing serving my second spin serves with an Eastern grip after LeeD advised me to, and they've been working a lot better. The grip change does help a lot when hitting spin serves.
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Raul_SJ
G.O.A.T.
Did you recently play with Leed? In Berkeley?
President
Legend
Yup, last Friday actually. We hung out for a good 5 or 6 hours, so I think I got a decent look at his game.
President
Legend
I have never been one to get into all of the biomechanics of tennis technique, but to me the major difference between a kick and a twist serve is the amount of sidespin on the ball. The twist serve has more sidespin, while the kick serve has more topspin. I could be wrong about the semantics of these terms though.
President
Legend
Yeah, from what I know they could all basically be put under the umbrella of "topspin serve", similar to how there are very different types of topspin forehands.
I remember back in '76, when I was still learning the various grips, that I was befuddled by the number of forehand groundie strokes. Besides up the middle, DTL, CC, sharp CC, there was inside in, inside out, sidespin, top, underspin, combos of, "heavy" topspin, moderate topspin, flat forehands.......
Kinda complicated really, just for a "forehand".
President
Legend
I remember back in '76, when I was still learning the various grips, that I was befuddled by the number of forehand groundie strokes. Besides up the middle, DTL, CC, sharp CC, there was inside in, inside out, sidespin, top, underspin, combos of, "heavy" topspin, moderate topspin, flat forehands.......
Kinda complicated really, just for a "forehand".
Tennis (and other sports too) really has way too many names for things that only insiders know. Someone new to the sport will think a kick serve or twist serve are some mysterious thing. I wish there was a better way to talk about these things.
I think leed is assuming that there is some slice in the topspin serve because you seem to be correct
spacediver
Hall of Fame
from what I understand, pronation and internal shoulder rotation provide racquet head speed, specifically along a vector that is roughly in the same direction that the ball travels.
If the above is true, then this component of racquet head movement doesn't contribute to the spin of the ball, but rather to the drive of the ball.
And, as has been said, the amount of pronation determines the angle of the strings relative to the ball as they brush over it, and will therefore affect the type of spin imparted.
If the above is true, then this component of racquet head movement doesn't contribute to the spin of the ball, but rather to the drive of the ball.
And, as has been said, the amount of pronation determines the angle of the strings relative to the ball as they brush over it, and will therefore affect the type of spin imparted.
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WildVolley
Legend
For most servers, there is less pronation/internal shoulder rotation with the topspin serve because the server turns more away from the target and brushes across the ball. Or perhaps, more of the motion occurs after contact.
I first studied this with the library of video at Yandell's site. The flat servers usually turn the shoulders more toward the target and therefore internally rotate to bring the racket from on edge into alignment with the target. With topspin serves, most servers do not square the shoulders as much to the target so the racket face doesn't have to turn away as much from on edge to be facing the target at contact.
Some used to say there was no pronation/isr on topspin serves, but watching slow motion of the pros, some of the horizontal component is still being driven by this motion, but more of the racket head speed is being put to brushing across the ball, too.
I first studied this with the library of video at Yandell's site. The flat servers usually turn the shoulders more toward the target and therefore internally rotate to bring the racket from on edge into alignment with the target. With topspin serves, most servers do not square the shoulders as much to the target so the racket face doesn't have to turn away as much from on edge to be facing the target at contact.
Some used to say there was no pronation/isr on topspin serves, but watching slow motion of the pros, some of the horizontal component is still being driven by this motion, but more of the racket head speed is being put to brushing across the ball, too.
Raul_SJ
G.O.A.T.
Leed, since you are continually touting yourself here as an ex high-level player that can still hit monster twists and 110mph flats, it is best that you post a video.
Next time you hit, Pres can film you when you are fresh and rested.
Sometimes, a 30 second video clip can be worth more than 30 thousand posts.
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tennis_ocd
Hall of Fame
No. OP asked about TS serve. Pronation *ends* later and *starts* earlier. You can't hit a TS serve without opening the racket face. This is an excellent vid describing Fed's first and second TS kicker. Excellent.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CnMolTSCUqo
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
Here is the racket motion for a kick and slice serve in Toly processed composite pictures. Notice the upward motion for the kick as compared to the side motion for the slice. I don't have a known topspin serve.
The only possible way to see how your racket is moving at ball contact is by taking high speed videos of your racket-ball impacts.
The joint motion that rotates the wrist is internal shoulder rotation using pre-stretched muscles. Look carefully at the bones at the elbow - they suddenly rotate - ISR looks like a twitch. Any actual pronation during that acceleration phase of the serve is so small that it can't be observed.
The only possible way to see how your racket is moving at ball contact is by taking high speed videos of your racket-ball impacts.
The joint motion that rotates the wrist is internal shoulder rotation using pre-stretched muscles. Look carefully at the bones at the elbow - they suddenly rotate - ISR looks like a twitch. Any actual pronation during that acceleration phase of the serve is so small that it can't be observed.
..........................................
This year my understanding improved recently as I learned that this is probably what a kick serve for an ISR serve actually is, at least what I believe that it is. -
One point, the before frame appears first, the impact frame second and the after frame last. The ball is squished during impact.
Kick serve-
These are Toly processed composite pictures from 240 fps videos showing the frames before impact, impact and after impact. Over these 9 milliseconds around impact the racket strings rise and go to the side. Notice that his chest is more to the right than for the slice serve. (reference racket position to the baseline). The ball seems more back over his head but this behind camera view is bad for seeing this. The side view is best.
Slice serve-
Over the 9 milliseconds around impact the racket strings go mostly to the side. (reference racket position to the baseline)
The videos with these frames are in my Vimeo collection with slice and kick mentioned. I believe that the serves are properly identified because the balls have the right spin and bounce high to the right for the kick and to low to the left for the slice. You can see in the videos that the ISR motions are similar. I believe that one main difference is that the slice is contacted higher up than the kick.
I think that kick serves probably have a lot of variety, Stosur with her head to the side at impact being an example.
I can't tell the difference yet between a kick serve, twist serve, or topspin serve in videos but I can clearly see the racket rise in 240 fps videos.
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I'm going to amend my earlier statement to agree with you here. There does have to be some initial pronation to get the racquet face angled correctly. The dramatic pronation where the thumb is pointing at the court occurs later.
The timing and amount depends on the GRIP the servers chooses to use.
When hitting topspin serves, some players choose conti with a twist towards eastern FORE hand.
Other players choose to hit with almost a eBACKhand grip.
Most players choose something in between.
All require different amounts of pronation to get the correct spin contact point.
When hitting topspin serves, some players choose conti with a twist towards eastern FORE hand.
Other players choose to hit with almost a eBACKhand grip.
Most players choose something in between.
All require different amounts of pronation to get the correct spin contact point.
Topspin Shot
Legend
Ocd, I see what you're saying about the earlier pronation. But like RetroSpin, I don't consider that the "pronation" pronation. The early pronation like you're talking about is also a function of staying more sideways.
tennis_ocd
Hall of Fame
it's much slower than typical so I guess it's how you view it....
Suresh, very few players bother to hit a pure topspin serve because it is neither here nor there, just easy to crush on the returns.
But, it's nice to have all 3 topspin serves, twists, pure tops, and then top/slices.
Add a flat to each of 3 locations, add a pure slice to 2 more locations that bounce mid thigh high, and you've got a full arsenal of service weapons.
Hard to maintain them ALL all of the time, so some practice is needed for maintainence.
But, it's nice to have all 3 topspin serves, twists, pure tops, and then top/slices.
Add a flat to each of 3 locations, add a pure slice to 2 more locations that bounce mid thigh high, and you've got a full arsenal of service weapons.
Hard to maintain them ALL all of the time, so some practice is needed for maintainence.
I was asking whether for ball to move left after bounce, it must have some slice on it, right? I am constructing a physical model in my head about why tennis balls move to the air sideways in a certain way and after bounce in a certain way.
tennis_ocd
Hall of Fame
ttw has a nice article on the kick serve. I'd imagine it'd be almost impossible to have pure TS on a serve... don't even think it'd be desirable. It's the combination of top and side, speed, bounce, and location that make the serve.
ttw has a nice article on the kick serve. I'd imagine it'd be almost impossible to have pure TS on a serve... don't even think it'd be desirable. It's the combination of top and side, speed, bounce, and location that make the serve.
My theory is as follows:
The curve of the ball in the air is due to side spin. In the diagram above, there is combination of TS and SS due to tilted axis of rotation. One side experiences lower air velocity and hence higher air pressure, and this differential causes sideways movement, just like downward movement with TS only. For a rightie server, the spin shown above will always curve the ball right to left in the air. If the spin is opposite like with high backhand sideways slice groundstroke, the ball will turn left to right in the air. I believe that for a slice serve, the spin direction is the same as above. So for both slice and kick serves, the ball moves through the air right to left.
What about after bounce? I am not sure about the interaction of spin with the ground, but it seems to me that the way the axis is tilted for kick serve, there is a lot of rightward momentum and so the ball moves to the right after the bounce. For a slice serve which may have the axis tilted slightly the other way, there is more leftward momentum and so the ball moves leftward after the bounce. Even if the axis is tilted the same way as the kick serve, the tilt is not that pronounced, and the leftward momentum overwhelms any rightward momentum. I am curious about how exactly the axis is tilted for the slice: like above but less pronounced, or even possibly the opposite?
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Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
ttw has a nice article on the kick serve. I'd imagine it'd be almost impossible to have pure TS on a serve... don't even think it'd be desirable. It's the combination of top and side, speed, bounce, and location that make the serve.
The diagram indicating the travel direction of the racket does not appear to be accurate for the kick serve. The angle of the racket is not accurate and most people would interpret the racket to be translating to the side as opposed to somewhat rotating up around the hand which has reached its highest point earlier than the racket. The travel direction of the strings looks pretty good though.
https://vimeo.com/27528701
Stosur video kick or topspin serve
https://vimeo.com/40449544
OP's question - The video shows internal shoulder rotation for some frames before impact to after impact. ISR is estimated to be very rapid for < 10 frames or < 40 milliseconds. Pronation is not observable leading to impact.
You can look at the video on Vimeo single-frame stop-action by holding down the SHIFT KEY and using the forward and backward ARROW KEYS. (If it flips to a different video, let me know.) Look for the straight arm to rotate as indicated by the bones at the elbow.
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