how far into court should the ball toss be?

[stockboy]

I've seen some players toss the ball a good 2 feet into the court, while others toss barely past the line. Local tennis guy told me to toss my kick serve ball vertical and flat serve ball into the court, but I don't quite agree, since that basically means you're giving your serve away during the toss. Is there a general guideline for how far into the court you should aim your toss? Or is this something where you find the sweet spot by doing it a lot?

Personally, I've found it much easier to hit serves that aren't tossed very far into the court. And I've not found tossing further into the court provides me with much more power, if at all.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

Doesn't matter if your toss gives away what type of serve you are going for. It is no secret that 2nd serves will almost always be different from 1st serves. It is much more important to disguise placement rather than type of serve.

How far you toss into the court will be dependent on your own skills as a server. At elite levels, the 1st serve toss can be quite a bit into the court while the 2nd serve toss is forward of the baseline but not as far forward as the first serve.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

It's a long-held (decades) myth that elite servers hit all / most of their serves off the same toss. Even for the top servers, topspin or kick serve tosses will not be as far forward as flat and a slice 1st serve tosses. And the left / right deviation (acoss the baseline) can be even greater.

Jeff Cooper dispelled this myth quite some time back. IIRC, in his study, Pete Sampras' second serve toss &: contact point was something like 60 cm more to the left than his first serve. For Roger Federer, the difference was more like 80-90 cm.

A few years ago, some Hawkeye data showed more variation than expected or just the first serve tosses of Novak and Roger. There was a variation of something like +/- 10 cm on their first serves. Most of that deviation was probably left / right. Novak's total deviation for that particular set was 19 cm. Where is Roger had a total deviation for 1st serves of 20 cm.

 

[TennisDawg]

It’s hard to hit a good kick serve with a toss too far into the court. The kick serve needs to be hit at a lower height than a flat serve since you will be hitting up on the ball. I try and toss just over my left shoulder for the kick and try to hit up on the ball. My flat is to the right of my body but I have trouble hitting it if it’s too far into the court

 

[Friedman Whip]

It's a long-held (decades) myth that elite servers hit all / most of their serves off the same toss. Even for the top servers, topspin or kick serve tosses will not be as far forward as flat and a slice 1st serve tosses. And the left / right deviation (acoss the baseline) can be even greater.

Jeff Cooper dispelled this myth quite some time back. IIRC, in his study, Pete Sampras' second serve toss &: contact point was something like 60 cm more to the left than his first serve. For Roger Federer, the difference was more like 80-90 cm.

A few years ago, some Hawkeye data showed more variation than expected or just the first serve tosses of Novak and Roger. There was a variation of something like +/- 10 cm on their first serves. Most of that deviation was probably left / right. Novak's total deviation for that particular set was 19 cm. Where is Roger had a total deviation for 1st serves of 20 cm.

Something doesn't sound right here. 60 cm is right at 2 feet, 85 cm is almost 3 feet. Federer's contact point for his second serve is almost 3 feet to the left of where he contacts ball for first serve. Don't think so.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

@mrmarble

Something doesn't sound right here. 60 cm is right at 2 feet, 85 cm is almost 3 feet. Federer's contact point for his second serve is almost 3 feet to the left of where he contacts ball for first serve. Don't think so.

Actually, a 2-ft differential for Sampras and a 3-ft differential for Federer is what tennis analyst / researcher, Jeff Cooper, had indicated in his study. Take a look at the archived article for yourself

Should You Use the Same Toss for Different Spin Serves?

Should you use the same toss for different spin serves in tennis? Do pros Pete Sampras, Roger Federer, Samantha Stosur, Andy Roddick, Serena Williams, and Novak Djokovic use the same toss for different spins, or is there a difference between the tosses for their topspin-slice first serves and...

web.archive.org

 

[mrmarble]

@mrmarble

Actually, a 2-ft differential for Sampras and a 3-ft differential for Federer is what tennis analyst / researcher, Jeff Cooper, had indicated in his study. Take a look at the archived article for yourself

Should You Use the Same Toss for Different Spin Serves?

Should you use the same toss for different spin serves in tennis? Do pros Pete Sampras, Roger Federer, Samantha Stosur, Andy Roddick, Serena Williams, and Novak Djokovic use the same toss for different spins, or is there a difference between the tosses for their topspin-slice first serves and...

web.archive.org

I don’t know. 3 feet difference sounds extreme to me. But if someone actually took some measurements it must be correct then. Very surprised

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

I don’t know. 3 feet difference sounds extreme to me. But if someone actually took some measurements it must be correct then. Very surprised

JC indicates that Pete placed all of his tosses to the left of his (original?) center line. He says that his first serve toss ~2 ft to the left while his 2nd serve could be as far as 4 ft to the left.

For Roger, he indicates that the 1st serve toss or contact was typically 6" to the left of his center line while his 2nd serve kick / twist serve could be 3.5 ft to the left. The images provided might be slightly different angles but they certainly suggest that a 3-ft difference is plausible.

 

[mrmarble]

JC indicates that Pete placed all of his tosses to the left of his (original?) center line. He says that his first serve toss ~2 ft to the left while his 2nd serve could be as far as 4 ft to the left.

For Roger, he indicates that the 1st serve toss or contact was typically 6" to the left of his center line while his 2nd serve kick / twist serve could be 3.5 ft to the left. The images provided might be slightly different angles but they certainly suggest that a 3-ft difference is plausible.

Then how funny people talk about serve disguise lol especially at club level

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

Then how funny people talk about serve disguise lol especially at club level

Not sure that Roger or Pete really ever try to disguise the type of serve they are going to hit. But they are masters at disguising where they will place those serves. They are pretty good at hitting almost anywhere in the service box -- often very close to the lines.

 

[mrmarble]

Not sure that Roger or Pete really ever try to disguise the type of serve they are going to hit. But they are masters at disguising where they will place those serves. They are pretty good at hitting almost anywhere in the service box -- often very close to the lines.

I agree that the biggest unknown you want to guess right is the placement
You think it’s a myth you need to have same toss for every type of serve?
Also, how can one make their intended placement obvious anyway? As opposed to disguising it

 

[ballmachineguy]

First, get a proper serve motion. Then determine where to toss and have it go in with that serve motion. Will be slightly different depending on the person. Why would one work their motion around throwing to a certain place? Of course, there will be some back and forth when you decide you want to change stance, add a different spin serve.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

I agree that the biggest unknown you want to guess right is the placement
You think it’s a myth you need to have same toss for every type of serve?
Also, how can one make their intended placement obvious anyway? As opposed to disguising it

Yup, a huge myth. Elite servers will have a least two different tosses. Sometimes more. I employed three different tosses most of the time when I was competing.

As for placement, the disguise of these top guys is enhanced by the fact that they could put the ball almost anywhere they want on the serve. Even closer to the line than they would for their other shots.

A lot of players have "tells" for their intended target area -- especially at the club / rec level. Sometimes they are obvious while, in some cases, you might pick it up on more of a subconscious level.

One of the famous "tells" at the pro level was the tongue of Boris Becker. Back in the late '80s or in the 90s, Andre Agassi discovered that Boris would tip off where he was going to serve with the tip of his tongue. I believe he revealed this in his book from a few years ago.

 

[mrmarble]

Yup, a huge myth. Elite servers will have a least two different tosses. Sometimes more. I employed three different tosses most of the time when I was competing.

As for placement, the disguise of these top guys is enhanced by the fact that they could put the ball almost anywhere they want on the serve. Even closer to the line than they would for their other shots.

A lot of players have "tells" for their intended target area -- especially at the club / rec level. Sometimes they are obvious while, in some cases, you might pick it up on more of a subconscious level.

One of the famous "tells" at the pro level was the tongue of Boris Becker. Back in the late '80s or in the 90s, Andre Agassi discovered that Boris would tip off where he was going to serve with the tip of his tongue. I believe he revealed this in his book from a few years ago.

Boris tongue is obviously an extreme example. Can you explain how club players make their placement target obvious? And any other cues one can pick up about placement. I tend to believe it’s almost impossible to tell unless you know the player’s history

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

Boris tongue is obviously an extreme example. Can you explain how club players make their placement target obvious? And any other cues one can pick up about placement. I tend to believe it’s almost impossible to tell unless you know the player’s history

While the Boris example appears extreme once you know about it, Andre may have been the only one that was cognizant of it. Perhaps a few other players picked it up subconsciously. Or maybe no one except AA picked up on it.

Everyone is different when it comes to tells. Sometimes it is not obvious on an observable, conscious level. If you're watching them closely enough you may just pick up on certain tendencies.

I've seen a few people use a different grip for different placements. Some will orient their feet slightly differently. Some will use a slightly different toss for different placements. With others, it might be a subtle change in their hips, racket drop, shoulder movement or swingpath.

Some people are easier to read than others. The best players are usually pretty good at disguising their intent.

 

[mrmarble]

Well the Boris example appears extreme once you know about it, Andre may have been the only one that was cognizant of it. Perhaps a few other players picked it up subconsciously. Or maybe no one except AA picked up on it.

Everyone is different when it comes to tells. Sometimes it is not obvious on an observable, conscious level. If you're watching them closely enough you may just pick up on certain tendencies.

I've seen a few people use a different grip for different placements. Some will orient their feet slightly differently. Some will use a slightly different toss for different placements. With others, it might be a subtle change in their hips, racket drop, shoulder movement or swingpath.

Some people are easier to read than others. The best players are usually pretty good at disguising their intent.

Interesting. Swing happens quite fast and small amounts of changes in stringbed angle can change placement to a large extent. Don’t know how it can be predicted correctly. I can never guess where the serve will come before the ball is hit, unless I know the player well having played with them many times before

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

Interesting. Swing happens quite fast and small amounts of changes in stringbed angle can change placement to a large extent. Don’t know how it can be predicted correctly. I can never guess where the serve will come before the ball is hit, unless I know the player well having played with them many times before

Some players will limit their options with the orientation of their chest / torso or their hips on volleys & groundstrokes and, perhaps, even on serves. So, if they do not coil or turn enough, you might be reasonably certain that they can only hit effectively in one direction. Some people will telegraph their shots. You see this a lot when people are going to hit a drop shot. They are not very good at disguising it because they set up differently for the drop shot than they do for their normal drives.

You might see these tells with some players you've never played against. However, with players you have a lot of experience with, you may have picked up on subtle or even obvious tells.

For your own part, you want to set up on each shot in such a manner that you can hit the ball in any direction -- that is, you want to maximize your options.

 

[Dragy]

One extra note about toss “disguise”: you cannot reliably gauge how deep into the court the toss is put observing from returner’s position. Left/right - yes, but not depth. So your power serve toss might look very similar to spin serve toss, even though one is deeper into the court…

Two types of tosses are really telling something usually: way overhead for kick serve and way to the right (for a righty) for heavy slice. Would you like to disguise those two? Maybe if you vary between both for your 2nd serve. Most used 1st serve options - flattish serves, power slices, wide slices and topspin-slices may be hit from tosses that look very similar from receiver’s perspective. Unintended variation puzzles it even more, in my experience.

 

[puppybutts]

It's a long-held (decades) myth that elite servers hit all / most of their serves off the same toss. Even for the top servers, topspin or kick serve tosses will not be as far forward as flat and a slice 1st serve tosses. And the left / right deviation (acoss the baseline) can be even greater.

Jeff Cooper dispelled this myth quite some time back. IIRC, in his study, Pete Sampras' second serve toss &: contact point was something like 60 cm more to the left than his first serve. For Roger Federer, the difference was more like 80-90 cm.

A few years ago, some Hawkeye data showed more variation than expected or just the first serve tosses of Novak and Roger. There was a variation of something like +/- 10 cm on their first serves. Most of that deviation was probably left / right. Novak's total deviation for that particular set was 19 cm. Where is Roger had a total deviation for 1st serves of 20 cm.

idk about the players you mentioned, but Serena's toss is pretty consistent between serve types, and she doesn't always hit it hard and flat on the first serve, as she often slices it out wide. Here's an awesome hawkeye analysis showing her ball toss variation at around 1:00. according to the video, her toss range is 13 inches on the ad side, 15 inches on the deuce side.

though as she's gotten older I noticed she doesn't really hit a kick serve anymore.

But regardless of what pro players do, I agree disguising placement is far more important than type of serve, especially for us non-pros. I think hitting a better serve with an undisguised ball toss is better than hitting a weaker serve trying to fool an opponent, who frankly probably isn't good at reading serves anyway. But idk what level OP is at.

also to answer OP's question, I like to toss it just forward enough that I can get some body leaning into the serve. if i toss the ball too vertically, I feel I am forced to muscle the ball and arm it too much without some forward momentum.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

idk about the players you mentioned, but Serena's toss is pretty consistent between serve types, and she doesn't always hit it hard and flat on the first serve, as she often slices it out wide. Here's an awesome hawkeye analysis showing her ball toss variation at around 1:00. according to the video, her toss range is 13 inches on the ad side, 15 inches on the deuce side.

though as she's gotten older I noticed she doesn't really hit a kick serve anymore.

But regardless of what pro players do, I agree disguising placement is far more important than type of serve, especially for us non-pros. I think hitting a better serve with an undisguised ball toss is better than hitting a weaker serve trying to fool an opponent, who frankly probably isn't good at reading serves anyway. But idk what level OP is at.

also to answer OP's question, I like to toss it just forward enough that I can get some body leaning into the serve. if i toss the ball too vertically, I feel I am forced to muscle the ball and arm it too much without some forward momentum.

This is very interesting very interesting. So, apparently Serena does vary her ball toss but not as much as other top servers. Her toss variation, according to the data shown, is somewhat more than a foot (33 cm or more). Whereas Pete might vary his toss up to 2 ft, Serena is varying it (nearly) 1.3 ft (38+ cm). Apparently, Serena also varies her contact height a fair amount. Significantly lower for a topspin serve and for a flatter 1st serve

OTOH, Serena does have somewhat less variation on her serve (types) than Pete or Roger. She hits a lot of flatter serves and topspin serves. Also slice (topslice?) but not a lot of kick / twist serves. She also seems to have employed more serve speed variation than someone like Maria. Serena has served some big serves over 120 mph (almost as fast as Venus) but often her top speed is closer to 110 mph on the first serves and 90 mph or so on her topspin serves.

I probably would not advise tossing the ball in the manner that Serena does. Her toss is fairly high but obviously not as high as Maria's toss. She also puts a fair amount of spin on the ball when she tosses it. Most top servers will hold the ball in their fingertips or with an ice cream cone grip (like Roger does). But Serena holds the ball more in the palm of her hand and then then lets it roll from her palm to her fingers before it leaves her hand. This is why it has more spin than most players put on the ball.

I also recommend a tossing arm lift angle of 0° to 30° forward of the baseline. And no more than 45°. I've seen a number of served tosses from Serena and appear to be close to 45°. This is ok. However in other videos it appears to be more like 60°. But, since her toss is fairly high, she has time to coil her body more (esp upper torso). With a lower toss, that 60° lift might not allow for much coiling preparation.

 

[Finster]

This discussion has gotten off track. How far in front should you toss the ball for your serve? Flat serve. Kick serve. Does your body move forward with your toss no matter how far forward? Given differences in technique is there a generalized ideal how far in front the ball should be to maximize the flat serve? Too far forward, the ball goes in the net. Too far back, it goes long.

 

[Raul_SJ]

Let's assume the flat serve toss pic is struck 2.0 feet into the court, struck at the peak of the toss. Is there any way to calculate the landing point of that toss (if you were not to hit it)? Does it follow a parabolic path into the court?

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

Let's assume the flat serve toss pic is struck 2.0 feet into the court, struck at the peak of the toss. Is there any way to calculate the landing point of that toss (if you were not to hit it)? Does it follow a parabolic path into the court?

From the servers perspective, the ball path should be pretty much parabolic. Not sure that we would see a parabolic curve looking at the side view tho. There is some back to front movement for the toss of many servers (but perhaps not at all). But most of the movement is R to L so we would likely see something closer to a parabolic curve looking with a back perspective rather than a side perspective.

 

[TennisDawg]

Yup, a huge myth. Elite servers will have a least two different tosses. Sometimes more. I employed three different tosses most of the time when I was competing.

As for placement, the disguise of these top guys is enhanced by the fact that they could put the ball almost anywhere they want on the serve. Even closer to the line than they would for their other shots.

A lot of players have "tells" for their intended target area -- especially at the club / rec level. Sometimes they are obvious while, in some cases, you might pick it up on more of a subconscious level.

One of the famous "tells" at the pro level was the tongue of Boris Becker. Back in the late '80s or in the 90s, Andre Agassi discovered that Boris would tip off where he was going to serve with the tip of his tongue. I believe he revealed this in his book from a few years ago.

Off topic but his grip is close to eastern forehand.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

Off topic but his grip is close to eastern forehand.

Who are you referring to? Boris B?

Some players, like Serena & Boris use an Aussie grip (semi-conti) variation for first serves but something closer to a standard continental for second serves

 

[LeeD]

Also.... do you plan to come to net position?
do you want to move back behind your baseline to defend?
But most important...toss to where your serve is most efficient, reliable, and replicable.

 

[tennis tom]

On a first serve your toss arm can be aimed between the net post and the service line--depending on a slew of variables like your flexibility, coordination, whether you can rotate your trunk while serving --but baisicly your toss arm can line up between the angle formed by the net post and the baseline--Roger's toss is parallel to the baseline--the toss for the second serve is above your head--if you didn't hit it the ball should bounce on the button on your cap, if you wear one.

 

[TennisDawg]

Who are you referring to? Boris B?

Some players, like Serena & Boris use an Aussie grip (semi-conti) variation for first serves but something closer to a standard continental for second serves

Yes, as shown in the picture. And it makes sense for a flat first serve.

 

[Finster]

On a first serve your toss arm can be aimed between the net post and the service line--depending on a slew of variables like your flexibility, coordination, whether you can rotate your trunk while serving --but baisicly your toss arm can line up between the angle formed by the net post and the baseline--Roger's toss is parallel to the baseline--the toss for the second serve is above your head--if you didn't hit it the ball should bounce on the button on your cap, if you wear one.

Regarding the second serve, but the serve can still be tossed into the court (by how much is the topic), but if you get your body under the ball, the ball can still land on your cap. But if this is the case, how far into the court? Still no consensus on how far into the court for first serve, but is this just personal preference?

 

[tennis tom]

how far into the court?

Until u are called for a foot fault.

 

[stockboy]

ok I get the rough idea. flat serve toss goes further in than kick serve toss. Still a couple of questions.

does the trophy stance also change depending on the toss? immediately prior to striking the ball, do you want to keep the ball in the same position relative to your torso between your different serves, such that when you toss further into the court, you also lean further into the court on the trophy pose? or is it more like every player is different, you have to figure this out on your own.

Also, it was mentioned that at elite levels, people tend to toss further in. Right now, I'm definitely not elite, though it doesn't mean I can't be someday. Right now, I'm less focused on serve placement than getting the ball over the net and inside the lines. Is it advisable to focus first on ball placement, consistency and good form, while gradually progressing towards more aggressive ball toss and serve that involves contact further in the court? How much can one expect to see their serving motion change as they progress?

 

[FiddlerDog]

There is a natural comfortable depth and then there is uncomfortable depth.
Get a hopper and toss as deep as you can into the court, to the point where you feel you will miss the ball.
When you connect with a deep toss serve, the court will feel 5 feet shorter. That is the feel.
I never made that feel my habit, unfortunately. The right toss feels like a bad toss

 

[EddieBrock]

What happens if you toss as far into the court for your topspin serve as a flat or slice serve? Would you tend to miss into the net and open up too soon? I think that's what I do

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

What happens if you toss as far into the court for your topspin serve as a flat or slice serve? Would you tend to miss into the net and open up too soon? I think that's what I do

Those are both possible outcomes.

 

[maggmaster]

Yea if my topspin serve is too far into the court, it goes in the net. Which really is not good because that is the serve I hit the most.

 

[stockboy]

There is a natural comfortable depth and then there is uncomfortable depth.
Get a hopper and toss as deep as you can into the court, to the point where you feel you will miss the ball.
When you connect with a deep toss serve, the court will feel 5 feet shorter. That is the feel.
I never made that feel my habit, unfortunately. The right toss feels like a bad toss

is this strictly for flat balls?

and is this the comfort level developed over time?

 

[Merkaffe]

While the Boris example appears extreme once you know about it, Andre may have been the only one that was cognizant of it. Perhaps a few other players picked it up subconsciously. Or maybe no one except AA picked up on it.

Everyone is different when it comes to tells. Sometimes it is not obvious on an observable, conscious level. If you're watching them closely enough you may just pick up on certain tendencies.

I've seen a few people use a different grip for different placements. Some will orient their feet slightly differently. Some will use a slightly different toss for different placements. With others, it might be a subtle change in their hips, racket drop, shoulder movement or swingpath.

Some people are easier to read than others. The best players are usually pretty good at disguising their intent.

Federer always looking at where he’s going to serve before tossing..

 

[TennisCJC]

Yea if my topspin serve is too far into the court, it goes in the net. Which really is not good because that is the serve I hit the most.

If you toss too far into the court and are hitting a topspin or kick serve, you are likely to hit into the net or end up without much topspin because you have to move into the court and open shoulders to reach the contact point. A topspin or kick serve should not be as far into the court and more to L for R handed server. Sharapova had a stinky 2nd serve because she tossed fairly far into the court which didn't allow her to hit up much.

There are no hard rules and contact would vary depending on server height (taller players have more reach and may be able to toss more into court) and ability, but:

Assuming R handed server - reverse for evil lefties:
For flat serves: toss 1 to 2 feet into court and 3 to 6 inches R of noon (straight up from ball of lead foot position). If you are really tall, you may be able to toss even more into court
For slice serves: toss 6 to 18 inches into court and 6 to 9 inches to R of noon
For top/slice or kick serves: toss 0 to 12 inches into court and between noon and 12 inches to L. Older players, players with shoulder or back issues, and less experienced players may want to try tossing at noon to take stress of back and shoulder. If you want more topspin/kick toss less into court for safer serve. If you want more penetration and drive on serve, toss 6 or more inches into court.

As stated above, pros vary toss location a lot for types of serve but they usually can hit different locations from same spot more or less. These are guidelines but I think they are reasonable starting points for experimentation.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

Federer always looking at where he’s going to serve before tossing..

Roger is primarily looking at his opponent... Until the point where he releases the ball. This way he will detect any early movement of the opponent.

Nick Kyrgios has attempted to pull a SABR attack on Roger's (2nd) serve several times but has been pretty much unsuccessful because Roger keeps his eye on the opponent longer than other servers. Most servers will already be looking up at the start of their tossing motion -- well before they release the ball

 

[Shroud]

It’s hard to hit a good kick serve with a toss too far into the court. The kick serve needs to be hit at a lower height than a flat serve since you will be hitting up on the ball. I try and toss just over my left shoulder for the kick and try to hit up on the ball. My flat is to the right of my body but I have trouble hitting it if it’s too far into the court

this vid shows how

 

[ubercat]

I used to do this slice serve where I d move deeply forward with a low toss. It felt more parallel path and like I was passing the ball as I hit. Good variation. It was a bit tough on the shoulder.