How good is a 5-star 12-year-old?

5point5

Hall of Fame
I'm not playing him (yet). The draw isn't out, just the competitor list. The kid's ranking is top 75 nationally in 12s and he just won a sectional tournament in 14s. I'm thinking he probably shouldn't be in a 4.5 draw, but we'll see I guess.

Nah, a five star 12 year old is probably in the 4.5 range, although probably in the upper tier if he's nationally ranked.
 

J_R_B

Hall of Fame
Believe it's this one:

http://tennislink.usta.com/Tournaments/TournamentHome/Tournament.aspx?T=141371

and player is IR. Challange him to table tennis afterwards.

The draw is up now. The two young kids got absolutely screwed in doubles. The team they are playing (seeded 4) is actually the best team in the draw. The winner of that first round match will win the tournament IMO. In singles, he got a tough first round opponent, but it is a younger guy who plays a power baseline game, so that probably plays into his strength.
 

J_R_B

Hall of Fame
Punch Maleka! He won the US open sectional a couple times right?

Yes. He plays the USNOP in Middle States every year and is kind of the default winner every year where there's no real big time player like Nathan Healey. He's the defending champ of the Cryan open, too.
 

J_R_B

Hall of Fame
This is a new one this year. Matthew Sabo, seeded in the open draw, is the son of Skid Row guitarist Snake Sabo.
 

maggmaster

Hall of Fame
Looks like he played some futures and challengers in the early 2000s? No points though from what I can tell. Probably tough.
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
Maybe Nadal at 13 would have been a solid 5.0.
Just think.... at 12, they have had only 7 years of tennis experience, and ages 5-9 are basically useless, with no competition and no need for stategy or adapting to opponent's play.
So, they basically have about 5 years of KIDS tennis experience.
Most real 4.5's are adults who played college D-3 or 2, and have played against adults for over 5 years.
AND, playing top 10-12 year olds, they never ever see a 100 mph serve in competition, and in practice and hitting, those serves never come with any meaning.
 
Maybe Nadal at 13 would have been a solid 5.0.
Just think.... at 12,

13 is a different ballgame. My son was only a 4 star and could beat any 4.5 in the area when he was 13. I could beat him easily when he was 12. Any 5 star player will be a 5.0 when he is 13. The two years from turning 12 to turning 14 are massive in junior tennis, especially for boys. If this kid is almost 13 he could(might) win the draw. If he has just turned 12 he could struggle against a good 4.0
 

asimple

Semi-Pro
13 is a different ballgame. My son was only a 4 star and could beat any 4.5 in the area when he was 13. I could beat him easily when he was 12. Any 5 star player will be a 5.0 when he is 13. The two years from turning 12 to turning 14 are massive in junior tennis, especially for boys. If this kid is almost 13 he could(might) win the draw. If he has just turned 12 he could struggle against a good 4.0

I don't know that the NTRP versus junior comparison is very meaningful. I did play quite a few juniors last year though.

I was on the borderline between 4.5/5.0 and would guess that this level is closest to about a 2-3 star 18 year old or a 3-4 star 16 year old. I am not as sure about the younger kids but I was much stronger than a 3 star 12 year old.

I think the proper strategy against the kids though is low balls to make them dig it out. Hitting pace or moon balls is not effective.
 
Maybe Nadal at 13 would have been a solid 5.0.
Just think.... at 12, they have had only 7 years of tennis experience, and ages 5-9 are basically useless, with no competition and no need for stategy or adapting to opponent's play.
So, they basically have about 5 years of KIDS tennis experience.
Most real 4.5's are adults who played college D-3 or 2, and have played against adults for over 5 years.
AND, playing top 10-12 year olds, they never ever see a 100 mph serve in competition, and in practice and hitting, those serves never come with any meaning.

Lol. Watch the match between 13 year old Nadal and Gasquet and then try to rate him as a 5.0 while keeping a straight face.
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
You can worship the 12 year old all you want, and both of you would play those kids straight up topspin baseline rally balls, and try to grind it out...LOSER.
I look at anyone younger than 15 as a KID, with very little ALL COURT experience, I"d open the court and hit short low skidding slices, some high floaters just to keep them in their current groove, bring them up to net to lob those short guys with no serve and little overhead.
Can't come close to them from the baseline, for sure as a 4.0, but you can draw them in, low angle and slice, lob those short guys, and frustrate them by NOT allowing them to hit their favorite baseline shots when the point counts.
I didn't say for sure I could beat a 5 star 12 year old, but for sure, my strategy will get me more games than YOUR strategy against little short kids.
 

jmnk

Hall of Fame
You can worship the 12 year old all you want, and both of you would play those kids straight up topspin baseline rally balls, and try to grind it out...LOSER.
I look at anyone younger than 15 as a KID, with very little ALL COURT experience, I"d open the court and hit short low skidding slices, some high floaters just to keep them in their current groove, bring them up to net to lob those short guys with no serve and little overhead.
Can't come close to them from the baseline, for sure as a 4.0, but you can draw them in, low angle and slice, lob those short guys, and frustrate them by NOT allowing them to hit their favorite baseline shots when the point counts.
I didn't say for sure I could beat a 5 star 12 year old, but for sure, my strategy will get me more games than YOUR strategy against little short kids.
there are times when I wonder if LeeD has ever played a tennis match for points, or if he plays tennis at all. When those times come I look at his serve video - to remind myself that he does play tennis (sort of), just not very well.

I can see his point about lack of experience though. While a 15year old kid wastes time hitting balls 3hr/day on court every weekday, and plays maybe 3-4 matches in the tournament on the weekends, any TT 4.0 player gains valuable experience playing mixed doubles once a week, and practices maybe 20 serves (so you know, his arm doesn't fall off). The rest of the time a TT player spends reading this very forum to gain invaluable tips on how a poly string can raise his level, and a strategically placed weight can make his forehand not go long (or too short, they are conflicting stories on that - which is why we need to keep reading to improve). :roll:
 

J_R_B

Hall of Fame
So the kid won against a 20-something guy who is playing out his last year as a 4.0 before getting bumped to 4.5 and beat him in a fairly close match. I know the guy he played does have a bomb serve, so it's possible that kept the match close.
 

HunterST

Hall of Fame
So the kid won against a 20-something guy who is playing out his last year as a 4.0 before getting bumped to 4.5 and beat him in a fairly close match. I know the guy he played does have a bomb serve, so it's possible that kept the match close.

I guess if it was close it would be tough for anyone to accuse him of sandbagging.
 

goober

Legend
So the kid won against a 20-something guy who is playing out his last year as a 4.0 before getting bumped to 4.5 and beat him in a fairly close match. I know the guy he played does have a bomb serve, so it's possible that kept the match close.

Beating an upper end 4.0 7-5 , 6-4 pretty much dispels the notion he is going to just blow through the draw.
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
JMNK does make some valid points...but we're talking about 12 years old here.
Home schooled, morning and evening practice, practice against other juniors and some 4.5's, hitting mostly topspin baseline shots, some moon balls, competitive with that size and age group, have learned to volley, does not adopt it in their normal game.
12 year olds, mostly barely 5' tall, and if you know anything at all about physiology of growing kids, awkward and probably does the spider drill as badly as I do...20 seconds.
What's his strengths? He can hit endless topspin shots from behind the baseline, the farther the more consistent.
What's his weakness? He doesn't venture voluntarily to net position, so while he's trained to volley and overhead, he doesn't use that game in match play.
So, what does TopspinShot, Matt, and Jmnk do when they play a 12 year old? Of course, their strategy is baseline topspin, out hit the little kid, run back and forth along the baseline, and likely LOSE by 3's and maybe 4's.
Since you three guys poo poo my chances of getting a game or two, what IS your strategy against a nationally ranked 12?
I've played against a top 100 12.
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
I'll BET none of you three can come up with a strategy nearly as comprehensive as mine, and none of you possess a lefty serve, or prefer to play net position tennis over baseline bash.
YOU guys might lose to a top 12 every single time.
At least my strategy gives me a chance to win some sets when I"m playing decently.
And this "top 4.0". How many years of net play has he played and implemented into his normal tennis?
Remember, no 12 year old has a ghost of a second serve, so he's attackable from both serving and returning.
 
I'll BET none of you three can come up with a strategy nearly as comprehensive as mine, and none of you possess a lefty serve, or prefer to play net position tennis over baseline bash.
YOU guys might lose to a top 12 every single time.
At least my strategy gives me a chance to win some sets when I"m playing decently.
And this "top 4.0". How many years of net play has he played and implemented into his normal tennis?
Remember, no 12 year old has a ghost of a second serve, so he's attackable from both serving and returning.

I don't want to come across as a jerk, but I don't think you would have a chance against the 5 star 12 year old, Matt Lin, or me.
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
NO no, you're NOT coming across as anything but a tennis player expressing his opinion, so I hope you won't refrain from posting any ideas.
I don't expect to WIN against a nationally ranked top 12 year old. I"m talking about winning games, and my share of points, as a lowly 4.0 hasbeen.
You might think I"m dumb enough to think I can win by 6-4, 6-4. NOPE, that's delusional.
But I can make each game close, being a former player who did OK in the A/Open class, albeit 30 years ago.
Remember, you judge me as an old, over the hill fart who can't run and hobbles around the court with a weak serve.
Funny, ever hear RobFL, Shroud, or President call me that? And Rob is a nationally ranked 4.5 singles player.
This year alone, I"ve probably played at least 20 doubles sets with a nationally top 100 junior 12 GIRL She's No.4 in NorCal. Believe me, she has no edge whatsoever. Her Dad only wants me to play her singles when SHE's playing well. Protective, yes. As all parents are of their 12 year olds, boys or girls.
She usually loses to my peers, guys with my amount of experience, ex Open players, now too old and playing either 4.5's or 65's, who play about my range when I"m interested.
And at 12, girls are no weaker, slower, or hit with less pace than boys.
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
Oh...
Actually, I stand a OK chance against Matt. He's played tennis maybe once a month for the past 8 months, and unless he's playing 3 days a week his summer, a very good chance. Did you see his video hitting with AndreA? Against Matt of last summer, breadsticks for me.
As for you...I don't know how you play really. You've got a good serve, but I've played against some good serves, and high bounces don't bother me because I conti slice them with solid forward body movement. The guys who actually played me think I have a serve somewhat equal to yours, before your latest vid, but I"m lefty.
Good question, you can ask President, we played about 2 weeks ago. I did quit just before the end of our first set, my ankles hurting was my excuse. He knows it wasn't.
Today, weekend pickup doubles, two of the other guys on court (opponent's) played D-2 and 3, and current league 4.0 singles. My partner was a former D-2 doubles girl. We did lose, but 6-4 is not all that bad.
 

SoBad

G.O.A.T.
The TopspinShot could probably take a good crack at a moonballing Northeastern 12yo boy, but would likely struggle against an aggressive hard-hitting SanPabloPark 12yo girl, even if she plays right-handed and stays back on her second serves.
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
Close, but not quite the panache' of JoeDali.
I'd reckon, 12 year old girl and 12 year old boy is likely very close in level, with a slight edge towards who is bigger and faster.
12 year old girl is 5'3" and 118 lbs of solid muscle. 118 coming from her Dad, "solid muscle" from looking at her legs, probably bigger than mine. I"m 152 lbs.
 

SoBad

G.O.A.T.
That’s what I thought – even if the TopspinShot somehow managed to get the upper hand in the match, he’d probably fold out of fear of being confronted by this solid-muscle 12yo girl in the parking lot on his way home.
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
Love our choice of words.
Condense it some, and you've got the makings of another JoeDali.....
 

Maximagq

Banned
JMNK does make some valid points...but we're talking about 12 years old here.
Home schooled, morning and evening practice, practice against other juniors and some 4.5's, hitting mostly topspin baseline shots, some moon balls, competitive with that size and age group, have learned to volley, does not adopt it in their normal game.
12 year olds, mostly barely 5' tall, and if you know anything at all about physiology of growing kids, awkward and probably does the spider drill as badly as I do...20 seconds.
What's his strengths? He can hit endless topspin shots from behind the baseline, the farther the more consistent.
What's his weakness? He doesn't venture voluntarily to net position, so while he's trained to volley and overhead, he doesn't use that game in match play.
So, what does TopspinShot, Matt, and Jmnk do when they play a 12 year old? Of course, their strategy is baseline topspin, out hit the little kid, run back and forth along the baseline, and likely LOSE by 3's and maybe 4's.
Since you three guys poo poo my chances of getting a game or two, what IS your strategy against a nationally ranked 12?
I've played against a top 100 12.

Pretty sure I can beat a 12 year old 5 star. I've beaten 14 year old 5 stars, but once they start playing 16's, they can kick my @ss hard. I used to practice regularly with guys like Ryan Storrie, Charles Deng, Daniel Gealer, Derek Chen, and a few other guys in the San Gabriel Valley and all of them besides Derek are 5 stars and Derek is a 4 star in the Top 140 in the country.
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
Which Matt can beat the 12 year old prodigy's?
The one last summer, for sure.
The one who went to UCLA, playing tennis once every 3 weeks against nobodies? That one would be close.
 

Maximagq

Banned
Truth be told, I'm getting back into it during summer because I've been coaching a lot and the coaching is more interactive practice hitting. Tomorrow I'm going to play with DartMarcus and another one of my buddies and hopefully try to get some footage. DartMarcus claims he's 5.5 and plays DI in Illinois and I can vouch for him he's pretty damn good.
 

Maximagq

Banned
Good stuff!
You're getting your tennis back in shape.
I guess it's bagels for me now...:cry::cry:

Not sure, the problem is I haven't really been serving that much and as you saw in the Dykstra match and in my other matches, way too many double faults. So that's problem number one. Second is that I'm getting kind of lazy and fat LOL so my stamina isn't all that great. I think my groundies are solid again though and improving. It's just the overall consistency isn't as sharp as before.
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
You'll get it all back, but fall session might intrude on your comeback.
You just need a solid month of match play, and your pride will force you to fully regain your past tennis level.
 

Maximagq

Banned
Haha hopefully, like I said, I'll TRY to play a Men's Open after summer session ends, which is September 12 since I still have about 3 weeks before school ends. I'm also heading up to San Francisco area to visit Silicon Valley so I'll let you know when I'm coming and hopefully we can hit haha
 
I think TopspinShot is 21 years old.
That would make him more nervous playing against a girl, especially an attractive one. Would he really be able to use all his skills, utilize his strengths, and focus on the moment?
I"m 65, have played tennis for close to 40 years, had plenty of hottie practice partner's (back in the '70's), have played pretty serious fun tennis with Rosie, Illana, and some lesser WTA pros (their office was above the windsurf shop I worked at), so I can focus only on the tennis, and not be deluded I can just bash my way thru and prevail.
Against the male gender, I was hitting with more than a handful of up and coming juniors, most making Open level after I stopped playing tennis, some becoming D-2 singles players, and my twice weekly practice partner was No. 2 for CCSF (D-3).
I think I've got the experience to handle playing kids.

Some very good points there, all reinforcing my initial assessment of the potential matchups. The 12yo SPP girl is not only a bad matchup for the TSS and a potential parking lot threat, but also a budding rose of feminine allure and a ticket to escape the drudges of the NYC metro into the paradise of SFO. The 12yo NE moonballing boy, on the other hand, is a menacing threat right in his own backyard, a disaster in the making that must be squashed in its infancy.

This is just sick. And I'm 19, not 21.
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
I"m sure you will have more fun hitting with President, who is living right next door to StanfordU, and plays on the courts there.
He's not your level either, but he hit's a real open level forehand, and once his serves settle down, his confidence will skyrocker.
Plus, he's 21, 5'10's, and moves like the wind, like you.
 

Bud

Bionic Poster
So, I'm playing the local tournament that I play every year. They have Open, A, and B draws. "A" is defined as 4.0-4.5 ("B" is 3.5 or lower), although it's not an official NTRP tournament because a bunch of local (mostly high school) kids play as well, and they obviously have no NTRP rating, so there's a lot of leeway in the entries.

Anyway, entries closed yesterday, and one that caught my eye is a kid who is a 5-star rising 7th grader who played in the Easter Bowl 12s this spring. What should I expect from this kid? Is he going to blow away a 4.5 draw? If he were 14, I'd mention it to the director that it's probably not going to be either competitive or fun for him, but 12 is still very young. Being a 4.0, there are 50 people better than me signed up, so I have no expectations myself, but it still would suck if the biggest tournament of the year was completely uncompetitive.

There's a Blue Chip 12 YO who plays at Balboa in San Diego. I'd put him on par with a solid 5.0 player.
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
Kid is TWELVE years old!
You can rattle him, take him out of his game, force him to play the game you want him to play, and he doesn't nearly have the power to do anything about it, if he's forced to move to the ball.
Yes, baseline to baseline, he can play at 5.0 levels, although he won't hit many clean winners from power and ball speed.
 

Bud

Bionic Poster
Kid is TWELVE years old!
You can rattle him, take him out of his game, force him to play the game you want him to play, and he doesn't nearly have the power to do anything about it, if he's forced to move to the ball.
Yes, baseline to baseline, he can play at 5.0 levels, although he won't hit many clean winners from power and ball speed.

These 5-star/blue chip kids are tournament/match tough. The kid in SD plays like a seasoned veteran. We're not talking normal 12 yo tennis playing kids :)
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
Do you do any sports?
I snowboarded with ShaunWhite when he was 12.
I raced motocross with ErikKehoe, drove RodneySmith to races and practice when he/they were 12, raced with Tyson and TallonVolland when they were young teens.
All were the most vaunted, highly rated experts at the time. I could beat them all, because I was 29, stronger, bigger, and much smarter.
No way a 12 year old black belt can beat a 30 year old tough MAN in a real fight. In a karate EXHIBITION, maybe.
OK, a top 12 year old golfer can beat most recreational duffers, but that's GOLF.
 

Maximagq

Banned
A student I was coaching is a rising 8th grader which makes him about 13 years old. I was just getting back into playing a lot and I played in 4 tiebreaks. I beat him in three of them with scores like 10-7 and 10-8, and on the fourth tiebreak I lost 0-10. These kids are good.

http://www.tennisrecruiting.net/player.asp
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
You were tired.
At the time, you were lower 4.5 at best. You played less than once every 3 weeks, and against questionable opponents. We saw your vids hitting with AndreA.
You play solely a baseline counter punching game, exactly what the kid is used to, plays against, and is comfortable playing.
Your serve is what he sees every day, in practice and in matches.
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
In my limited experience....
"having a crush" is the worst possible start to a successful relationship.
"pretty and cute" is a better reason, for sure, but not a basis whatsoever. Plenty of "pretty and cute" everywhere you go.
A better groundwork....start talking to THREE different girls, all "possibles", and the one you end up with is the one you get, and you'd better accept it, because they're doing YOU a favor.
 

HunterST

Hall of Fame
In my limited experience....
"having a crush" is the worst possible start to a successful relationship.
"pretty and cute" is a better reason, for sure, but not a basis whatsoever. Plenty of "pretty and cute" everywhere you go.
A better groundwork....start talking to THREE different girls, all "possibles", and the one you end up with is the one you get, and you'd better accept it, because they're doing YOU a favor.

Uh oh, now Lee is ignoring the topics and just giving relationship advice.
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
As you know, TW here often switches the replies to different subject headings that were recently visited.
It happenned again. Anyone who posts regularly knows this happens, not too frequently, but it does happen.
The answer was in reply in the adult's tennis section.
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
HunterST...
Who else on her should be giving "relationship advice" ???
I"m 65.
I've lived with more girls than you have fingers.
I've never been married.
At least 3 of my relationships have lasted longer than 7 years.
I'm homeless, make very little money, live on sports and my good looks (laugh laugh, if you call a newt good looking).
And in the past 20 years most girls attracted to me are well over 15 years younger than me.
 

HunterST

Hall of Fame
HunterST...
Who else on her should be giving "relationship advice" ???
I"m 65.
I've lived with more girls than you have fingers.
I've never been married.
At least 3 of my relationships have lasted longer than 7 years.
I'm homeless, make very little money, live on sports and my good looks (laugh laugh, if you call a newt good looking).
And in the past 20 years most girls attracted to me are well over 15 years younger than me.

Just a joke, Lee. It was just funny how it looked like you went from talking about 5 star recruits to crushes.
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
NONE were "crushes"...
I mentioned before, my working strategy is to start to date 3 girls at the same time, and see which one works out. I've done this for over 15 different relationships.
If I date only one, it work work out until 2 more join the fray, or the ONE dumps me dead.
 

Maximagq

Banned
In my limited experience....
"having a crush" is the worst possible start to a successful relationship.
"pretty and cute" is a better reason, for sure, but not a basis whatsoever. Plenty of "pretty and cute" everywhere you go.
A better groundwork....start talking to THREE different girls, all "possibles", and the one you end up with is the one you get, and you'd better accept it, because they're doing YOU a favor.

Kind of off-topic but I'm talking to that one girl again. She was supposed to go to the beach with me but she didn't have a ride so we're just talking on FB and she tells me she can't open my Snap to her for some reason. Oh well haha.
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
Honestly, you're well over my head here, like a modern human talking to a neanderdahl from the prehistory era.
Beach is a lotta pressure, bikini's and all that. And she's gonna spot your wandering eyes, all the while her checking out the hulks.
Casual afternoon drinks and snack is safer. Dinner if it works out...not that same day, but later in the week.
 
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