How good is Toni Nadal as a coach?

ghostofMecir

Hall of Fame
majestic-goat-marv-vandehey.jpg
 

Kralingen

Talk Tennis Guru
Early childhood coach I think he’s got to be in the elite of the elite tier (Mike Agassi, Peter Graf, Jelena Gencic, Richard Williams, Peter Carter, Jon Tomic, Nick Bollettieri). He’s definitely more in the Agassi/Tomic/Graf tier of borderline abusive family member but is far less extreme and has better principles than them.

as a senior coach, tactically and development wise, he has to be up there with the best as well. Rafa’s revenge in 2010 vs Soderling, 2012/13 vs Djokovic, and revitalizing his game post ‘09 injury was down to Toni shifting his style to dictate more and hurt players with his FH combo. Moya took this to another level in ‘17 but Toni laid the groundwork.

Has to be up for GOAT due to his ability to bridge the childhood development - senior tactician hybrid.
 

Entername

Professional
I've been critical of Toni during parts of Rafa's career, most notably in 2011 against Djokovic and 2015/16 when Rafa slumped, but objectively speaking, Toni is arguably the greatest coach in history especially if he can continue to lead FAA towards even bigger achievements in addition to everything he's done with Rafa of course
 

wangs78

Legend
If FAA wins a Slam while under his tutelage, esp in the next year or two, Toni’s resume will be pretty ridiculous. It already is with just Rafa, but you know what they say. Lightning doesnt strike twice.
 

tex123

Hall of Fame
The fact that he was able to coach that MUG FAA to a title makes him the GOAT.
Made me laugh. True though. Let's hope FAA can build on that win.


Toni is a super coach to shape youngsters. The best of the best. But once you become an established elite player like Nadal, he becomes a bit of an hindrance to progress. Just look at what Moya did with Nadal.
 

MadariKatu

Hall of Fame
Made me laugh. True though. Let's hope FAA can build on that win.


Toni is a super coach to shape youngsters. The best of the best. But once you become an established elite player like Nadal, he becomes a bit of an hindrance to progress. Just look at what Moya did with Nadal.
That says more about Moyá I think. He coached Raonic to world #3 too. He's a fantastic coach
I do get your point about being established, but Nadal was already established at the very top for several years before he kinda stagnated.

But yeah, all the best for FAA. I see him winning slams (yes, more than one) soon.
 

DSH

Talk Tennis Guru
I think FAA and Nadal will end up facing each other in the next GS tournaments that are not called RG (if the Canadian does a good performance there it would be quite surprising) and then, we will see if uncle Toni helps Aliassime defeat his nephew in tournaments as important as those.
:cautious:
 

MadariKatu

Hall of Fame
I think FAA and Nadal will end up facing each other in the next GS tournaments that are not called RG (if the Canadian does a good performance there it would be quite surprising) and then, we will see if uncle Toni helps Aliassime defeat his nephew in tournaments as important as those.
:cautious:
Since his match vs Medvedev, I've seen FAA as a strong contender for this years wimbledon. And now he's already won a title... this will be a good year for him. I'd love a W final between both. Especially if Nadal manages to make that beefed up serve more reliable.
 

DSH

Talk Tennis Guru
Since his match vs Medvedev, I've seen FAA as a strong contender for this years wimbledon. And now he's already won a title... this will be a good year for him. I'd love a W final between both. Especially if Nadal manages to make that beefed up serve more reliable.
It would be incredible if there was a final between those players from such distant generations.
;)
 

Gary Duane

G.O.A.T.
It's reasonable to say that you only have to be good to get results out of Rafa. It's a bit like saying how good was Mozart's father as a teacher. But if he pulls off a minor miracle with FAA, I'd say that will show even more, since before Toni he never won a big tournament.
 

octobrina10

Talk Tennis Guru
Early childhood coach I think he’s got to be in the elite of the elite tier (Mike Agassi, Peter Graf, Jelena Gencic, Richard Williams, Peter Carter, Jon Tomic, Nick Bollettieri). He’s definitely more in the Agassi/Tomic/Graf tier of borderline abusive family member but is far less extreme and has better principles than them.

as a senior coach, tactically and development wise, he has to be up there with the best as well. Rafa’s revenge in 2010 vs Soderling, 2012/13 vs Djokovic, and revitalizing his game post ‘09 injury was down to Toni shifting his style to dictate more and hurt players with his FH combo. Moya took this to another level in ‘17 but Toni laid the groundwork.

Has to be up for GOAT due to his ability to bridge the childhood development - senior tactician hybrid.
Rafa's family has never been abusive. His parents have always given him an opportunity to choose his path. His parents would have hired him another tennis coach instead of his uncle, if Rafa had wanted.
Rafa was a promising footballer as a kid, but he had to choose between football and tennis at the age of 12. His father asked him to make a choice between football and tennis, and Rafa chose tennis. His father said he could have been a fine professional footballer.

Rafa's father, a businessman, has worked hard to provide a comfortable life for his family and to be able to cover expenses related to coaching his son.
Rafa says in his autobiography ("Rafa: My Story", 2011): ¤¤ Toni has never received any money [a salary] from me or from anyone in the family for the lifelong attention he's dedicated to me, but he's been able to do it because he owns half of my father's business, and takes half the profits, without doing any of the work. It's been a fair exchange because I would never have had anything like the same hours of coaching from Toni if my father had not worked with such purpose all his life....
...My father, two years older than Toni, has started one business after another from scratch; he is single-minded about his objectives, but he has made his family his first responsibility...He has employed dozens of people in his various businesses and created the conditions for us to live well and for Toni to dedicate himself to me.¤¤
 

MadariKatu

Hall of Fame
If you are a great coach then make average player slam winner . Anyone could have won multiple slams with Nadal.
After Nadal, he won't coach anaverage player. That's why he went with FAA. Or should Felix win a slam would you consider that as great coaching from tennis, since he was average in the first place?
 

NeutralFan

G.O.A.T.
After Nadal, he won't coach anaverage player. That's why he went with FAA. Or should Felix win a slam would you consider that as great coaching from tennis, since he was average in the first place?

I am not talking about him , i am talking in general . Great coaches should coach average players and make them great . Even I can win multiple slams with Nadal, Djokovic , Serena etc.
 

onefineday

Hall of Fame
I think he's good. He is lucky, too. That was luck to have been Nadal's uncle. Nadal was going to be a sports star whatever happen-ed.
With FAA, he's done a good job refining the game and focusing it.
 

intrepidish

Hall of Fame
If you are a great coach then make average player slam winner . Anyone could have won multiple slams with Nadal.

You're taking Nadal as a constant when at least part of what makes Nadal who he is today might not have been nurtured by anyone else. So sure, the Nadal who emerged with Toni could then be taken by someone else and been successful but remove Toni and do you get there in the first place?

Those practices, the hard lessons...would anyone else have made sure Nadal drank them down to the last bitter drop?

We will never know to what degree this is the case but Toni is a very bright guy with his convictions as anyone who has heard him speak in length in Spanish can attest.
 
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ibbi

G.O.A.T.
He has his shortcomings, but if he takes Felix to a major title that'll put him on a fairly short list in certainly the modern game of people who have taken multiple players to a major. It's a list that gets even shorter if you consider it'd be a case of coaching multiple people to their first major which would knock guys like Roche, Lundgren, and Annacone off it.

Even if we don't get way ahead of ourselves and that never happens, he will always be able to say he was the guy who got the kid over the not insignificant bump that he could not clear prior, and that's of some note.
 

MadariKatu

Hall of Fame
He has his shortcomings, but if he takes Felix to a major title that'll put him on a fairly short list in certainly the modern game of people who have taken multiple players to a major. It's a list that gets even shorter if you consider it'd be a case of coaching multiple people to their first major which would knock guys like Roche, Lundgren, and Annacone off it.

Even if we don't get way ahead of ourselves and that never happens, he will always be able to say he was the guy who got the kid over the not insignificant bump that he could not clear prior, and that's of some note.
Since Toni got onto his coaching team, FAA has made QF at W (lost to Berrettini, finalist), SF at USO (lost to Medvedev, champion) and QF at AO (lost to Medvedev, finalist; held match point). Right after this came his first title. To me it looks as he's done quite a lot (at least mentally), in a short time.
I'd be very surprised if he didn't keep improving.
 

Raiden

Hall of Fame
Toni is not a garden variety coach. He can't be for example put in charge of a Fed Cup team.

He gives good behaviour an extreme importance — a level of importance that coaches normaly can't afford to give (or else will be fired inevitably, something Toni didn't have to worry about because of the tight knit, loyal "clan" nature of the Nadal family.
 

Mustard

Bionic Poster
If you are a great coach then make average player slam winner . Anyone could have won multiple slams with Nadal.
That might be true to some extent if Toni became Rafa's coach in 2006 or something, but Toni was coaching a 4-year-old Rafa.
 

Kralingen

Talk Tennis Guru
Rafa's family has never been abusive. His parents have always given him an opportunity to choose his path. His parents would have hired him another tennis coach instead of his uncle, if Rafa had wanted.
Rafa was a promising footballer as a kid, but he had to choose between football and tennis at the age of 12. His father asked him to make a choice between football and tennis, and Rafa chose tennis. His father said he could have been a fine professional footballer.

Rafa's father, a businessman, has worked hard to provide a comfortable life for his family and to be able to cover expenses related to coaching his son.
Rafa says in his autobiography ("Rafa: My Story", 2011): ¤¤ Toni has never received any money [a salary] from me or from anyone in the family for the lifelong attention he's dedicated to me, but he's been able to do it because he owns half of my father's business, and takes half the profits, without doing any of the work. It's been a fair exchange because I would never have had anything like the same hours of coaching from Toni if my father had not worked with such purpose all his life....
...My father, two years older than Toni, has started one business after another from scratch; he is single-minded about his objectives, but he has made his family his first responsibility...He has employed dozens of people in his various businesses and created the conditions for us to live well and for Toni to dedicate himself to me.¤¤
Misreading any nuance and creating strawmen arguments, from what was actually a complimentary post of Rafa and Toni, as usual…
 

Mivic

Hall of Fame
Felix is having great results with Toni on his team.
Rafa's feats under Toni's guidance need no introduction but how much of it is Toni's contribution is a moot point.

Rafa Nadal academy kids are winning junior slams.

Toni turned 61 recently. How do you rate him as coach?
Not really relevant to the thread but why is the clown wearing a mask? Like seriously, what is that all about? Obsessive compulsive disorder, high neuroticism and hypochondria all seem to be things which afflict most of the Nadal family. I recall Nadal's father wearing an N95 mask on top of a cloth mask at the AO final too for almost 5 hours. Not to mention Nadal wearing a mask entering RLA before drenching the ballboys with his sweat for the duration of the match. Does no-one else find this pantomime ridiculous?
 
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MadariKatu

Hall of Fame
Not really relevant to the thread but why is the clown wearing a mask? Like seriously, what is that all about? Obsessive compulsive disorder, high neuroticism and hypochondria all seem to be things which afflict most of the Nadal family. I recall Nadal's father wearing an NFT on top of a cloth mask at the AO final too for almost 5 hours. Not to mention Nadal wearing a mask entering RLA before drenching the ballboys with his sweat for the duration of the match. Does no-one else find this pantomime ridiculous?
No, and like you said, not relevant to the thread.
 

octobrina10

Talk Tennis Guru
Not really relevant to the thread but why is the clown wearing a mask? Like seriously, what is that all about? Obsessive compulsive disorder, high neuroticism and hypochondria all seem to be things which afflict most of the Nadal family. I recall Nadal's father wearing an N95 mask on top of a cloth mask at the AO final too for almost 5 hours. Not to mention Nadal wearing a mask entering RLA before drenching the ballboys with his sweat for the duration of the match. Does no-one else find this pantomime ridiculous?
No, They follow health & safety protocols and care about people surrounding them.
 

Sudacafan

Bionic Poster
If he makes a GOAT of FAA, I agree.
Isn’t that the right answer?
Question: Has Toni Nadal ever played tennis?
 

NeutralFan

G.O.A.T.
That might be true to some extent if Toni became Rafa's coach in 2006 or something, but Toni was coaching a 4-year-old Rafa.

Well, that proves nothing Mustard and i am a big Nadal fan . If Toni can make Felix a dominant champion then i might start giving credit to coaches but for now it's mostly player that's responsible for his success .
 

tex123

Hall of Fame
BS

Moya coached nobody before. Now he's just riding the coattails of a finished product. He is ATP's equivalent of Mouratoglou (who is riding the coattails of Serena)
He coached Raonic to no 3.

Riding the coattails of a finished product? Have you forgotten 2015 season? He's making a past sell by date Nadal win slams by protecting his body and targeted practice. He's former no 1. He does not have to ask someone to hit balls with Rafa. He hits with Rafa. Watch how they practice nowadays to understand targeted practice. Nadal no longer runs like a rabbit but his arsenal has improved immensely. Watch his backhand - he scores winners off that wing.
With Toni it used to be hours and hours of practice and endless tournaments with injuries. Now he practices less and achieves more.
Moya is awesome.
 
He clearly very talented as to the mental game and his years as a footballer must play a role. He must be a great coach given how good Nadal was early. Great synergy between those two reminds me of Bergelin and Borg.
 
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