How has Ferrer all but dominated the modern game with his diminutive frame?

[tennispro492]

Let's get one thing straight- apart from the big 4, Ferrer has consistantly beaten almost every other player on tour for the last 2 years or so, regardless if they are a big hitter or anything else.

And let's get another fact straight- Everyone knows that the pro's up their height by an inch or so, so in reality Ferrer is not 5.9 as his profile suggests, rather 5.7 or 5.8. This goes against everything that the modern game is supposed to benefit from, namely that you need to be tall to hit the ball hard enough on groundstrokes to bother the opposition, and that without at least being 5.11 or so you wont be able to get enough pace on your serves.

Ferrer doesnt hit the ball as hard as some guys, but he is pretty strong and can hit a pretty mean forehand from time to time.

Of course Ferrer is a great mover, and like Nadal will run down every ball. But surely this fighting spirit shouldn't be enough to compensate for his seemingly huge physical disadvantages?

Discuss.

 

[ben123]

if u can play tennis u can play tennis. ferrer shows statistics doesnt matter that much. if u r a better tennis player u win end of the story

 

[forzamilan90]

1st of all he hasn't dominated the game by any definition of the word at no point in his career. So fail thread right then and there. Great mover but his stature explains his outcomes generally against the big 4. Only the Murray h2h is close and Murray still leads. He has some tournament wins but he's not competitive on last stages of GS scale and it took him forever to win Masters 1000. If he won a major then we can say he's overcoming the standard for today's game in terms of stature

 

[treblings]

a few inches difference of height aren´t a huge disadvantage but some people will never understand that.end of discussion

 

[Sid_Vicious]

Let's get one thing straight- apart from the big 4, Ferrer has consistantly beaten almost every other player on tour for the last 2 years or so, regardless if they are a big hitter or anything else.

And let's get another fact straight- Everyone knows that the pro's up their height by an inch or so, so in reality Ferrer is not 5.9 as his profile suggests, rather 5.7 or 5.8. This goes against everything that the modern game is supposed to benefit from, namely that you need to be tall to hit the ball hard enough on groundstrokes to bother the opposition, and that without at least being 5.11 or so you wont be able to get enough pace on your serves.

Ferrer doesnt hit the ball as hard as some guys, but he is pretty strong and can hit a pretty mean forehand from time to time.

Of course Ferrer is a great mover, and like Nadal will run down every ball. But surely this fighting spirit shouldn't be enough to compensate for his seemingly huge physical disadvantages?

Discuss.

No, that is not always the case. It is just so typical for forum users to always assign pros with new heights that they *accurately* measured with their eyes while watching live tennis.

Ferrer is a legit 5 ft 9 and his physique is not as small as you make it out to be.

Ferrer has plenty of game in addition to his hard working mentality. However, he is limited by his talent rather than his physique. He is continuously beaten down by better players like Federer and Nadal.

 

[firepanda]

I've always admired Ferrer's forehand. It's a solid, unassuming shot that he can basically do anything with and hit all day long. I based my own around it, to an extent.

I don't think height has a massive impact on the power of one's forehand. There might be a slightly larger margin of error with regards to the net, but all that means is less topspin and more power; and Ferrer has excess topspin, anyway.

 

[kragster]

I've always admired Ferrer's forehand. It's a solid, unassuming shot that he can basically do anything with and hit all day long. I based my own around it, to an extent.

I don't think height has a massive impact on the power of one's forehand. There might be a slightly larger margin of error with regards to the net, but all that means is less topspin and more power; and Ferrer has excess topspin, anyway.

You dont think height limits the power of your forehand when it comes to balls that get high up on you? This is an area I feel tall players have a distinct advantage. Then again tall players have a disadvantage when it comes to low volleys. Which is why 6'1 is the perfect height.

 

[Sid_Vicious]

When you have a guy who hits his backhand like this:

I don't understand why people look at his height as the best explanation for his lack of success among the very best in the sport. Ferrer's game is not as mechanically sound as his biggest rivals'.

 

[dominikk1985]

I've always admired Ferrer's forehand. It's a solid, unassuming shot that he can basically do anything with and hit all day long. I based my own around it, to an extent.

I don't think height has a massive impact on the power of one's forehand. There might be a slightly larger margin of error with regards to the net, but all that means is less topspin and more power; and Ferrer has excess topspin, anyway.

I agree. height adds something but on the groundstrokes it doesn't make a huge difference.


ferrer is not the most powerfull guy but look at grosjean. that guy was just as small as ferrer and he hit absolute rockets off his FH
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qejr9i0oKd8

the biggest disadvantage is the serve. this might not sound by much but rec players underestimate the importance of the serve. it basically is the most important shot in tennis. karlovic made number 14 in the world with just a serve. so his serve probably was the biggest issue of ferrer against the big 4. it improved a lot over the years but still is of course not world class.

 

[firepanda]

You dont think height limits the power of your forehand when it comes to balls that get high up on you? This is an area I feel tall players have a distinct advantage. Then again tall players have a disadvantage when it comes to low volleys. Which is why 6'1 is the perfect height.

I think he uses Western Grip..? Then high balls shouldn't be a problem. If it's waaay too high, take it on the rise or let it fall, like every single other player does...

 

[NadalAgassi]

all but dominated, LOL! I didnt know Ferrer had spent time at #1 and won 5 or 6 slams already. I must have been a coma, I thought he was that guy who flucuated from 5-15 in the rankings for the last 7 years, won his first ever Masters only a month ago, and never made a slam final. Silly me.

 

[dominikk1985]

When you have a guy who hits his backhand like this:

I don't understand why people look at his height as the best explanation for his lack of success among the very best in the sport. Ferrer's game is not as mechanically sound as his biggest rivals'.

this is probably an adaptation because of his height because most courts are high bouncing.

I'm not sure if this is really limiting his game. there are tons of players with perfect strokes ranked lower than him.

I'm no big fan of his strokes either (becaue he rotates with the stroke and doesn't have a lot of "independent arm action) but I think his strokes are quite solid. he is just not as physically gifted as the top 4 not only in the height department.

 

[SwankPeRFection]

Ferrer is no different than Michael Chang was back in the 90's. End of story...

 

[President]

all but dominated, LOL! I didnt know Ferrer had spent time at #1 and won 5 or 6 slams already. I must have been a coma, I thought he was that guy who flucuated from 5-15 in the rankings for the last 7 years, won his first ever Masters only a month ago, and never made a slam final. Silly me.

No but he has consistently beaten every other player apart from the top 4 every time he's run into them, including the much vaunted "big hitters" Del Potro, Tsonga, and Berdych. He's easily the 5th best player in the world.

 

[dominikk1985]

Ferrer is no different than Michael Chang was back in the 90's. End of story...

yes but the game supposedly has evolved a lot. hundreds of young kids grew up with the modern stroke mechanics and better physical training so it should be harder to stay in the top 5 than it was 15 years ago.

so a michael chang kind of player should have a harder time now.

 

[treblings]

funny how the OP throws a rather ridiculous question at us, with his first post ever at talk tennis, and then ends the post with a simple: discuss

 

[Sid_Vicious]

this is probably an adaptation because of his height because most courts are high bouncing.

I'm not sure if this is really limiting his game. there are tons of players with perfect strokes ranked lower than him.

I'm no big fan of his strokes either (becaue he rotates with the stroke and doesn't have a lot of "independent arm action) but I think his strokes are quite solid. he is just not as physically gifted as the top 4 not only in the height department.

That makes no sense. Nishikori is about the same height as Ferrer yet he does not have awkward groundstrokes. A shorter height is not to blame for awkward stroke mechanics.

Ferrer is physically pretty gifted. He is fast, has good footwork, and great stamina. His actual tennis game is just far below the top 4 players.

Ferrer won't turn into a grand slam champion even if he magically grew 3-4 inches.

 

[Charlzz]

Against bigger players, Ferrer returns well and moves the ball around. His speed helps him chase down shots that might otherwise appear to be winners. Clearly, he returns pretty well, otherwise big serves like Raonic would beat him. Although he doesn't hit a lot of raw winners, he uses his inside-out, inside-in forehand to good effect.

I felt that Ferrer could play even more aggressive. Against, Berdych, in the Davis Cup finals, Ferrer tried to end points sooner by going for bigger shots, and taking more chances, so I wonder if he's working in that direction. Ferrer's style ought to be just as pounding as Nadal's style, but somehow Ferrer is a bit more burly, and has avoided major injury.

Power players (except at the very top) seem hard-pressed to beat him, which means Ferrer absorbs pace pretty well. I think nerves get in his way against both Nadal and Federer. While they have shots that can bother Ferrer, I feel he lacks confidence to go for his shots consistently against those two.

 

[NadalAgassi]

No but he has consistently beaten every other player apart from the top 4 every time he's run into them, including the much vaunted "big hitters" Del Potro, Tsonga, and Berdych. He's easily the 5th best player in the world.

Agree, but that is not something we should be asking the question about if a small player should ever be able to do. What will be next, asking how anyone under 6 feet can be in the top 20. All but dominate is not the right wording in any context for Ferrer and his career. There are many recent small players who have achieved much more than Ferrer too, Hewitt and Chang for starters who had 5 times the career he did (although I would never ever say they all but dominated the sport either, except maybe Hewitt for about a year, and that would even be a push).

 

[Bobby Jr]

He is one of the best at changing the direction of the ball in the history of tennis. It makes rallying against him just that bit more unconventional and tricky to play even if he's not hitting as hard as some.

This is a big part of why he's so often able to to handle guys like Del Potro. They can't get into any easy rhythm and the match goes by with Ferrer giving them awkward shots all day.

 

[President]

When you have a guy who hits his backhand like this:

I don't understand why people look at his height as the best explanation for his lack of success among the very best in the sport. Ferrer's game is not as mechanically sound as his biggest rivals'.

Ferrer's backhand is a little wonky but it's a very solid shot, no worse than say Nadal's. His forehand is a great shot in terms of consistency, placement, and the ability to take it early. It's probably better than either Djokovic or Murray's forehand. He is really hurt on the serve and even return by his height (despite already being a great returner), as well as lacking some leverage to hit winners behind the baseline.

 

[Candide]

Isn't his frame 100 sq inches like most other players?

 

[dominikk1985]

That makes no sense. Nishikori is about the same height as Ferrer yet he does not have awkward groundstrokes. A shorter height is not to blame for awkward stroke mechanics.

Ferrer is physically pretty gifted. He is fast, has good footwork, and great stamina. His actual tennis game is just far below the top 4 players.

Ferrer won't turn into a grand slam champion even if he magically grew 3-4 inches.

awkward groundstrokes? his strokes are pretty standard apart from his BH grip. do you think he would win slams if he adopts nishikoris BH grip (to use your analogy of growing 3-4 inches)?

Even with exactly the same strokes as federer or djokovic he wouldn't win slams.

he has great endurance and moves well but he is not super fast or very explosive. hitting power has something to do with height and mechanics, but a lot more with the natural explosive strength (not weightroom strength- scientists would say amount of fast twitch muscle fibres or whatever).

he might look fast if he plays against one of those lumbering 100 mph bombers but this is because he is able to move them so much around that the cannot really hurt him. he is very good at taking the ball early and moving the opponent laterally by good CC shots.

however if he plays against nole you can see that nole is a lot more explosive on the first steps and ferrer is out of position a lot of time. this is because nole can even put a lot off pressure on the opponent even if he is moved hard to the side while ferrer needs to set up to hit the ball hard. if he is really pushed you can see he is not super fast. it is just that most players (even if they are able to hit 100 mph-but only if they have the time that ferrer doesn't give them) aren't able to move him to those spots.

I'm not saying his strokes are perfect but they are most likely not the reason why he is not winning. at the highest level usually other factors decide-really technically limited players don't even reach the top100 in these days.

 

[President]

awkward groundstrokes? his strokes are pretty standard apart from his BH grip. do you think he would win slams if he adopts nishikoris BH grip (to use your analogy of growing 3-4 inches)?

Even with exactly the same strokes as federer or djokovic he wouldn't win slams.

he has great endurance and moves well but he is not super fast or very explosive. hitting power has something to do with height and mechanics, but a lot more with the natural explosive strength (not weightroom strength- scientists would say amount of fast twitch muscle fibres or whatever).

he might look fast if he plays against one of those lumbering 100 mph bombers but this is because he is able to move them so much around that the cannot really hurt him. he is very good at taking the ball early and moving the opponent laterally by good CC shots.

however if he plays against nole you can see that nole is a lot more explosive on the first steps and ferrer is out of position a lot of time.

I'm not saying his strokes are perfect but they are most likely not the reason why he is not winning. at the highest level usually other factors decide-really technically limited players don't even reach the top100 in these days.

Great post and I think you've hit the nail on the head. Ferrer is a very muscular guy but he is not the most naturally explosive player. Great endurance but guys like Djokovic and Nadal can outmaneuver him due to their superior athleticism. He can't out grind them and he doesn't have the leverage to overpower them off the serve and the ground, especially with his somewhat cramped stroke technique.

 

[t135]

Don't forget his intensity. Awesome intensity on the court. Until he plays Nadal or Federer anyway.

 

[Akubra]

Where to begin?

1) Ferrer's height. He is legitemately 5'9. The pros don't add inches to their height. If anything I think the ATP is very slow in updating the physiological information about them (maybe it's all purely self-reported).

2) Ferrer has not 'dominated the game outside the top 4'. He's been the most consistent player outside of the top 4 in the last couple of years, but I would hardly term that dominating. He had plenty of losses to lower ranked opponents this year - Dennis Istomin, Julien Benneteau, Wawrinka, Nishikori.

3) He is incredibly fit. He plays very intelligent tennis - he knows his margins and does a great job of not over-reaching himself. Ferrer never gives a match away - you have to earn it from him every time. He's got a great work ethic, not just in training but during his matches. Ferrer does a fantastic job of keeping his head together - he doesn't get overly upset at himself, does a good job of keeping an even keel and competing from start to finish. Add to that his great footspeed, good court positioning, agility and the fact that just knows his strengths and weaknesses as a player and knows his limitations and you've got a guy that it just tough to beat unless you have some serious weapons.

4) He has limitations to his game that are unrelated to his height. Chiefly, his backhand. Technically, it is an incredibly weak shot that he compensates for well through footwork, positioning and a willingness to work hard. Give Ferrer the technical two-handed backhand of anyone else in the top 20 (except perhaps Isner) and he might have a shot at winning a slam. While his forehand is strong and technically sound, his backhand is a very limited shot.

 

[mattennis]

Ferrer has an effective game, but he would not win GS tournament even if he was 6' 2''.

It is not height the reason he loses against Nadal and Federer (and to a lesser degree against Djokovic and Murray).

He is not as tennis-talented as the top-4 ( in fact it is a bit surprising that he has been the fifth best player in the last years, above players like Berdych, Tsonga, Del Potro...that most people would consider more talented than Ferrer, and obviously much taller than him).

 

[mattennis]

Well, Akubra just expanded with more detail what I was trying to say.

 

[akind]

Answer: Luis Garcia Del Moral.

 

[President]

Answer: Luis Garcia Del Moral.

Lol, this is very possible as well. I'm a huge fan of Ferrer but he's definitely on the top of my list of possible dopers in tennis. The man has inhuman stamina beyond even Djokovic and Nadal. Witness his run at the end of this year, winning like 3 tournaments in a row and winning 2 out of 3 matches at WTF over well rested opponents. On top of that he is unusually muscular for a tennis player and had a career resurgence out of NOWHERE in 2010 when he looked to be done and dusted.

 

[Sid_Vicious]

Ferrer's backhand is a little wonky but it's a very solid shot, no worse than say Nadal's. His forehand is a great shot in terms of consistency, placement, and the ability to take it early. It's probably better than either Djokovic or Murray's forehand. He is really hurt on the serve and even return by his height (despite already being a great returner), as well as lacking some leverage to hit winners behind the baseline.

That is just nonsense. Djokovic's forehand is more powerful and potent than Ferrer's. Djokovic is the same guy who has frequently defeated Federer in forehand to forehand rallies. In most of their matches, he matches Federer's forehand winner counts and almost always owns him in the backhand winner count. Djokovic can hit a bigger ball than Ferrer off his forehand and backhand. I also don't agree that Ferrer can take the ball early off of his forehand. He is very poor in this regard and prefers playing really deep in the court and looping shots off his backfoot.

Ferrer's backhand is certainly worse than Nadal's. Sure, as far as the rally ball is concerned, the weight of their average backhand shots might be similar, but Nadal can do much more with his backhand. Ferrer can't and never has been able to rifle backhand passing shots DDL/CC like Nadal can (especially in his prime).

 

[President]

That is just nonsense. Djokovic's forehand is more powerful and potent than Ferrer's. Djokovic is the same guy who has frequently defeated Federer in forehand to forehand rallies. In most of their matches, he matches Federer's forehand winner counts and almost always owns him in the backhand winner count. Djokovic can hit a bigger ball than Ferrer off his forehand and backhand. I also don't agree that Ferrer can take the ball early off of his forehand. He is very poor in this regard and prefers playing really deep in the court and looping shots off his backfoot.

Ferrer's backhand is certainly worse than Nadal's. Sure, as far as the rally ball is concerned, the weight of their average backhand shots might be similar, but Nadal can do much more with his backhand. Ferrer can't and never has been able to rifle backhand passing shots DDL/CC like Nadal can (especially in his prime).

Djokovic's forehand is hugely overrated and it's an insult to compare it to Federer's or Nadal's. It's a very good shot but it looks better than it is because of his movement (like Ferrer's backhand). Yeah he can sometimes outlast Federer in a forehand exchange on a slow court, but that's because he is so much quicker than Federer that he can outmaneuver him. He is helpless against low balls and not great at finishing the point with it compared to some players. Where he excels with his forehand is against high balls well behind the baseline, but he is no great shotmaker with it compared to some. Ferrer has much better depth control on his forehand and is better at taking it early on that side.

Check out these matches against Del Potro, notice how he DICTATES play against a much more powerful player by standing close to the baseline and taking groundstrokes early.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Pf77CipVCc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLuhT8n8FJ0

The first video is a lot better, but you'll get the idea. He does the same thing against Berdych and Tsonga.

 

[dominikk1985]

That is just nonsense. Djokovic's forehand is more powerful and potent than Ferrer's. Djokovic is the same guy who has frequently defeated Federer in forehand to forehand rallies. In most of their matches, he matches Federer's forehand winner counts and almost always owns him in the backhand winner count. Djokovic can hit a bigger ball than Ferrer off his forehand and backhand. I also don't agree that Ferrer can take the ball early off of his forehand. He is very poor in this regard and prefers playing really deep in the court and looping shots off his backfoot.

Ferrer's backhand is certainly worse than Nadal's. Sure, as far as the rally ball is concerned, the weight of their average backhand shots might be similar, but Nadal can do much more with his backhand. Ferrer can't and never has been able to rifle backhand passing shots DDL/CC like Nadal can (especially in his prime).

I agree that his BH lacks penetration but it is not true that he likes staying back. he can be pushed back by the best but if he plays against players outside the top10 he is stepping into the court a ton.

he is not like agassi who cannot be pushed back but he is best when he steps into the court and dictates the match. he is supposed to be a grinder but he is not. he is not super athletic, just very fit.

he strength is that he moves the opponent around which he can do very well against players outside the top 10 but not so much against the top 4. when he is pushed back and moved around he is very vulnerable. he has to take the ball early because he lacks natural power.but most just cannot move him.


this is his typical play (if his opponent allows it)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hw4S6s_VktQ

ferrer is also not a true clay specialist he often plays best indoors.

 

[tennispro492]

Ferrer is the 5th best player in the world, if he has dominated all those ranked below him with a 5 foot 7 frame, he must be a wonderful player indeed. Either that, or height doesn't matter. What do you think?

 

[JustTennis76]

Ferrer is kind of a player who you hate to play against if you don't have a put away shot. The guy makes you hit an extra shot to win a point. Talent wise he is not even close to the top 4 but his dedication and hard work on the fitness side of things lets him hang in the top 10 consistently. Dominated is not a word I would use. I rather go with consistent.

 

[jokinla]

Yes, congratulations................he's number 5.

 

[underground]

In a parallel world where Federer, Nadal, Djokovic and Murray doesn't exist, Ferrer will be World No. 1 for years with multiple slams.

 

[Power Player]

You dont think height limits the power of your forehand when it comes to balls that get high up on you? This is an area I feel tall players have a distinct advantage. Then again tall players have a disadvantage when it comes to low volleys. Which is why 6'1 is the perfect height.

I do not. Taking balls at shoulder height is becoming the norm at higher levels. It's not a big advantage except at lower tennis levels.