Not on slow hard courts he didn't. Federer plays the percentages and on slow courts he knows it doesn't pay to go for broke.
How has Roger Federer changed since 2007??
- Thread starter FedExpress117
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Not on slow hard courts he didn't. Federer plays the percentages and on slow courts he knows it doesn't pay to go for broke.
Bobby Jr
G.O.A.T.
You can't claim to be using some superior use of logic in your version of events and then make claims like slam wins (or masters even) are the only measurement of how good the tennis is that is being played. They are achievement milestones, not measurements of tennis level.
The perception of level argument is just that, an argument. It's dependent on the viewer's awareness and knowledge of tennis and, like most things here, some people know a lot more than others and vice versa.
Anyone who knows and follows tennis closely would laugh in the face of someone who claims the average level of tennis now isn't better than it was 5 years ago - regardless of whether Federer himself isn't at his peak.
CaptainKarma
New User
He is way different from 2007
Bobby Jr
G.O.A.T.
He has. A lot, especially mentally. Where he could once get by on blasting people off the court, the guys above him have made it a necessity for him to improve significantly in point-craft and work on his serve. (even tho he still has his moments on serve!)
Bobby Jr
G.O.A.T.
You're mixing up improvement with achievement. Achievements are achieved against the field. You could be 20% better player and achieve no more if all of your peers have also improved by the same amount. You could even achieve less as a better player if your peers improve more. Murray is probably an example of this in some ways. He's a better player than he was in 2010 and yet he's achieving less now (year to date - I think, haven't looked at that stats).
There is no doubt whatsoever that Berdych is a better player than he was in 2006. It's not even a close call. But he's also faced 3-4 guys who've also improved, especially their consistency, which has proven to be basically a lock-out of the majors and bigger tour titles.
10is
Professional
IvanisevicServe
Banned
The level of tennis now is better than it was 5 years ago? By how much? And based on...what?
It's certainly different now, as the courts are even slower overall. But better? That seems awfully subjective.
It's certainly different now, as the courts are even slower overall. But better? That seems awfully subjective.
5263
G.O.A.T.
Maybe you remember that right for the wrong reasons.
He used to set up the points thru aggressive counter punching, then get that winner
you remember from the BL, but after pulling them so far out they could not get it;
not thru a bigger shot. 09 &10 he was forcing bigger shots early in the points,
but missing too much.
Now he seems to swing back and forth more in his approach...like someone said...
due to confidence.
5263
G.O.A.T.
He is better but not as good as he should be. Berdych's problems are mental/strategy related. Unlike Donald Young who simply doesn't have the weapons, Berdych has the game to win Grand Slams
Bobby Jr
G.O.A.T.
For sure. I think it's safe to say, at this age, that Berdych is what he is mentally. He could make a few improvements strategy-wise - the sort that come with a change of coach for example - and maybe a few serve consistency leaps. Other than that what you see is what you get with him.
Other than that I get the feeling his future achievements will be somewhat dependent, as they've been for a while now, on his more accomplished peers faltering. This is the case for a number of players who can play outstanding tennis on occasion (Tsonga, Ferrer etc) but just can't make it stick match after match when it matters most and haven't shown improvement in this area over the course of a number of years.
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jackson vile
G.O.A.T.
He plays with more intelligence now days, instead of just relying on talent. Annacone has helped him a lot, Federer seemed to fight him the whole way (as usual). However, it has paid off big time!
Finally, Federer is playing Nadal like someone that has a brain. So many years he was either too incompetent or arrogant to use his brain.
I have to wonder if Federer keeps this up and makes it to the final, and Nadal makes it to the final can Federer finally defeat Nadal at the FO final?
Finally, Federer is playing Nadal like someone that has a brain. So many years he was either too incompetent or arrogant to use his brain.
I have to wonder if Federer keeps this up and makes it to the final, and Nadal makes it to the final can Federer finally defeat Nadal at the FO final?
IF that dropshot went over last year he would have won it.
Interesting topic!
Well even though Federer won 3 majors back in 07, I do believe that since 07 he played differently. Granted the way he played at the AO07 was probably one of the best grand slam performances by fed, but if you are watching some videos of the previous major (06 US Open) and then AO07, I do see a difference at the forehand swing.
He played with way more top spin and in addition he didn't went for the big shots if he was far behind the baseline as some of you already mentioned.
US2006: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zcr8fMWpo5Y
AO2007: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbBo3a5euMI
I read on top comment of a youtube video once that ATP changed the balls back in 07. I honestly never googled it.
Does someone know something about it?
Another thing are definitely the courts getting slowed down. I don't remember when it was, I think Miami in 07 for example.
Everybody is always saying Fed's prime was 04-07, but to be quite honest he definitely played different in 07. Not only the forehand swing, also mentally (beside the majors) he didn't seemed as strong as before. Frankly I think after being as dominant as he was, he probably relaxed a bit at the Masters1000 and was a bit casual. Who can blame him.
As far as Grand Slams, well it was still one of his best years.
Back to the main topic now:
In retrospect, I think he really started to play better on clay. Especially the way he played at RG after the Haas match that was pretty strong and different to the years before. I think people don't give Fed enough credit for that RG title, with Nadal out of the way he really had to feel a lot of pressure. Furthermore, I think the way he played in 10 and especially 11 on clay was stronger then ever. He played really smart and after adding the forehand drop shot back in 08 he really started to play better every year. Yes, I think he played stronger (tactical considered) at RG10 than RG09.
About the serve:
There is no way in hell his serve is stronger then ever. If you are watching some old Federer videos and I'm not talking about highlights, you will see that his mental strength was unreal. Especially on break points or deuce you could always count on him hitting a first serve, heck even an ace. And I can't stress this enough how important that is, but I never saw Fed hitting a double fault on a break point or at crucial moments in big matches, never.
And he definitely isn't as fast as he was. Hard to say when he declined. At the AO07 final he was quick as a cat, especially the sneaking in tactic against gonzo in the final was a perfect example how fast and smart he played back then.
And after winning RG and SW19 and being a father, I think he wasn't really on fire anymore. Or at least not as much as he was when he was 24. But this is just the way it is, i guess.
I think the mental part is the biggest change. I'd say due to the fact that he won pretty much everything a player can way. And on the other side, like I said being a father affects your spirit and getting older doesn't necessarily help as well.
Well even though Federer won 3 majors back in 07, I do believe that since 07 he played differently. Granted the way he played at the AO07 was probably one of the best grand slam performances by fed, but if you are watching some videos of the previous major (06 US Open) and then AO07, I do see a difference at the forehand swing.
He played with way more top spin and in addition he didn't went for the big shots if he was far behind the baseline as some of you already mentioned.
US2006: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zcr8fMWpo5Y
AO2007: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbBo3a5euMI
I read on top comment of a youtube video once that ATP changed the balls back in 07. I honestly never googled it.
Does someone know something about it?
Another thing are definitely the courts getting slowed down. I don't remember when it was, I think Miami in 07 for example.
Everybody is always saying Fed's prime was 04-07, but to be quite honest he definitely played different in 07. Not only the forehand swing, also mentally (beside the majors) he didn't seemed as strong as before. Frankly I think after being as dominant as he was, he probably relaxed a bit at the Masters1000 and was a bit casual. Who can blame him.
As far as Grand Slams, well it was still one of his best years.
Back to the main topic now:
In retrospect, I think he really started to play better on clay. Especially the way he played at RG after the Haas match that was pretty strong and different to the years before. I think people don't give Fed enough credit for that RG title, with Nadal out of the way he really had to feel a lot of pressure. Furthermore, I think the way he played in 10 and especially 11 on clay was stronger then ever. He played really smart and after adding the forehand drop shot back in 08 he really started to play better every year. Yes, I think he played stronger (tactical considered) at RG10 than RG09.
About the serve:
There is no way in hell his serve is stronger then ever. If you are watching some old Federer videos and I'm not talking about highlights, you will see that his mental strength was unreal. Especially on break points or deuce you could always count on him hitting a first serve, heck even an ace. And I can't stress this enough how important that is, but I never saw Fed hitting a double fault on a break point or at crucial moments in big matches, never.
And he definitely isn't as fast as he was. Hard to say when he declined. At the AO07 final he was quick as a cat, especially the sneaking in tactic against gonzo in the final was a perfect example how fast and smart he played back then.
And after winning RG and SW19 and being a father, I think he wasn't really on fire anymore. Or at least not as much as he was when he was 24. But this is just the way it is, i guess.
I think the mental part is the biggest change. I'd say due to the fact that he won pretty much everything a player can way. And on the other side, like I said being a father affects your spirit and getting older doesn't necessarily help as well.
10is
Professional
Good insight! Kudos!
90's Clay
Banned
Hes definitely less aggressive compared to his 04-07 days or even earlier but his service games have improved and he employs different tactics to keep these young bucks on their toes by using his experience.
I don't believe he is better at all but perhaps a bitter smarter.. Thats about all. Hes more prone to mental lapses and let downs but that comes with aging
I don't believe he is better at all but perhaps a bitter smarter.. Thats about all. Hes more prone to mental lapses and let downs but that comes with aging
Bobby Jr
G.O.A.T.
:lol: are you serious? I challenge you to give an example of a top player who had more mental lapses as they got later in their careers.
10is
Professional
LOLLIPOPS!!!! How about every athlete EVER! I challenge you to give me a few examples of top players who were playing "better" around their respective sport's mean retirement age than they were during their prime, barring players with idiosyncratic careers (like Agassi).
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Smasher08
Legend
What an utter garbage statement in a weak, insipid post.
You glibly ask for examples, click on "submit reply" and then realize the most obvious answer and seek to trivialize it.
Keep it up, troll genius.
Bobby Jr
G.O.A.T.
You didn't say retirement age, you said "..more prone to mental lapses and let downs but that comes with aging" which is utter nonsense in terms of the span of a tennis player's career - even if you liberally bookmark the upper end at 35 years old.
Mental lapses decrease in terms of tennis players as they age. That's why players play smarter, focus better, become more strategic as their physical attributes pass their prime and start to decline.
Well, at least for Sampras, Agassi, Federer, Ferrer, Lendl, Becker etc and basically any significant player I can think of.
It's how well they can improve in this area in particular that helps stymie a player's decline.
10is
Professional
Wow... I have no words to do justic to your utter ignorance especially your obliviousness to the tenets of aging and psychomotor degeneration amongst athletes based on the biomechanics of their respective sports. I am just going to leave you with a well cited scientific study (one of many if you care to look) and bid you adieu since this sort of ignorant rhetoric is not worth my time:
http://www.ucsur.pitt.edu/files/schulz/JofGeronSchulzCarnow1988.pdf
If you find any studies refuting this contention, please do let me know.
Bye Bye!
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10is
Professional
Smasher08
Legend
I pity you, I really REALLY do.
Cool story bro.
Smasher08
Legend
Wow... I have no words to do justic to your utter ignorance especially your obliviousness to the tenets of aging and psychomotor degeneration amongst athletes based on the biomechanics of their respective sports. I am just going to leave you with a well cited scientific study (one of many if you care to look) and bid you adieu since this sort of ignorant rhetoric is not worth my time:
http://www.ucsur.pitt.edu/files/schulz/JofGeronSchulzCarnow1988.pdf
If you find any studies refuting this contention, please do let me know.
Bye Bye!
Oh speaking of "utter ignorance" and "ignorant rhetoric", kid, you might want to notice that Bobby Jr was discussing mental lapses -- and yet you have sought to refute this by writing a vapid and fulminating post about psychomotor degeneration.
A non-troll would have grasped the difference between them immediately. The point you've weakly tried to make is tangential and irrelevant.
Bobby Jr
G.O.A.T.
Wow, you must be a complete muppet if you think a 20 year old has more concentration, consistency, analytical thought-process than 30 year old.Wow... I have no words to do justic to your utter ignorance especially your obliviousness...
If you find any studies refuting this contention, please do let me know.
Bye Bye!
You must be an even bigger muppet to link to a document about the relationship of physical performance to ageing. I was clearly talking about your comment on mental ability/decline etc. I made that clear by saying it numerous times.
The article you posted save for one passage is about the physical aspects. Did you even bother to read it? Well, if you have above average intelligence you will shortly be feeling like a bit of a tool because the key passage where it refers to the mental/experience aspect of sportpeople is basically consistent with what I said about experience and strategic thinking. Talk about an own goal. :lol:
I'll even save you the hassle of looking for it >
You say bye bye. Please let that be the case, you're clearly not cut out for anything other than copy and pasting stuff you haven't even bothered to grasp the overall scope of.
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10is
Professional
Wow, you must be a complete muppet if you think a 20 year old has more concentration, consistency, analytical thought-process than 30 year old.
You must be an even bigger muppet to link to a document about the relationship of physical performance to ageing. I was clearly talking about your comment on mental ability/decline etc. I made that clear by saying it numerous times.
The article you posted save for one passage is about the physical aspects. Did you even bother to read it? Well, if you have above average intelligence you will shortly be feeling like a bit of a tool because the key passage where it refers to the mental/experience aspect of sportpeople is basically consistent with what I said about experience and strategic thinking. Talk about an own goal. :lol:
I'll even save you the hassle of looking for it >
You say bye bye. Please let that be the case, you're clearly not cut out for anything other than copy and pasting stuff you haven't even bothered to grasp the overall scope of.
Wow... you ignorance really does know no bounds... when you're citing something from a source it helps to put it in context... the attribues you are citing are not referring specifically to tennis:
heed the term "reaction time".
Smasher08
Legend
heed the term "reaction time".
Yawn. Typical troll maneuver. Piling irrelevance upon irrelevance, sprinkled with flamebait.
Keep on fighting, wounded soldier.
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10is
Professional
Yawn. Typical troll maneuver. Piling irrelevance upon irrelevance.
Keep on fighting, wounded soldier.
Awww... what a cute little darling you are... like a yapping puppy... all bark and no bite.
Smasher08
Legend
Awww... what a cute little darling you are... like a yapping puppy... all bark and no bite.
Yawn. Pot kettle black.
And rather pedestrian for a troll.
Bobby Jr
G.O.A.T.
Where have we discussed reaction times or limb movement, or flexibility, or coordination etc? I'm not sure how to say it slowly via typed word so you can understand it but it's clear you don't put much effort into reading comprehension. Read my posts again, read what I wrote and respond to that, not your imaginings of what you thought I wrote or meant.
Then, when you can make a coherent point on this topic that relates to what I said, by all means come back and reply. Until then, please do us a favour and adhere to the bye bye you posted above.
10is
Professional
Holistically you have stated that Federer is a "better" player at an "older" age where most would universally acknowledge him as being past his tennis playing prime. However, in your most recent posts you have stated that aging reduces "mental lapses" i.e. spatial-visual awareness and psychomotor reflexes increases as a function of age (in other words "reaction time" = "reflex" (coupled psychomotor and psychovisual abilities). I just comprehensively disproved your hypothesis.
If you want to quell your aching ego and retort with more inane rhetoric be my guest.
Smasher08
Legend
Holistically you have stated that Federer is a "better" player at an "older" age where he is almost universally recognized to be past his tennis playing prime. However, in your most recent posts you have states that aging reduces "mental lapses" i.e. spatial-visual awareness and psychomotor reflexes increases as a function of age (in other words "reaction time" = "reflex" (coupled psychomotor and psychovisual abilities). I just comprehensively disproved your hypothesis.
If you want to quell your aching ego and retort with more inane rhetoric be my guest.
Well speaking of "inane rhetoric", kid, you've just built a straw man.
But by all means, keep on embarassing yourself.
Smasher08
Legend
Y'know, given how much he's been trolling recently, I find it rather curious that he's been on this board for nearly 2 years and yet only has made 110 posts.
Doesn't smell right.
10is
Professional
Shooo! shooo! Bad puppies don't get attention. They don't get any treats. And good little girls like me never, ever play with them!
IvanisevicServe
Banned
Noticed the same things about 07 Federer. He didn't have the same kind of spring in his legs he'd had in prior years...wasn't blasting the big, leaping forehands.
I don't know about Federer playing better on clay, though. His records in Rome/Monte Carlo in recent years haven't been good. And while I definitely give Federer credit for gutting out FO 2009, I have little doubt Federer would've won Roland Garros in 2005-2007 if not for Nadal.
stringertom
Bionic Poster
Relax, Smasher! That's the same troll from the Eagle thread who rattled my cage for supposed lack of reading comprehension. Guess she doesn't like 10/17ers much, eh?
BTW, the most telling example of playing smarter past 30 (32 to be exact)...the greatest upset in tennis history...Aging Ashe over GOATing Connors @Wimby'75!
Federer went from all time great 2004-2007 to simply great after 2007. Great players still win grand slams and still beat their main rivals. They just do not do either as frequently.
CEvertFan
Hall of Fame
I totally agree with what has already been said about Fed's speed, explosiveness, racquet head speed etc but the one thing that hasn't been said is that Federer was a total confidence player back when he was in his prime. Some players have mental toughness as their primary strength which makes them play great tennis and some play their best when they are confident like Federer.
The thing that has changed is that Federer had to learn to become more mentally tough and think strategy more rather than just riding the crescendo of confidence like he used to. When he started to lose to Nadal the dwindling of his confidence started to show and he suffered a lot of losses to him (granted most were on clay at first) and then started to have losses against other people too and it snowballed for a bit there, but he's learning how to be more tough and use his head more and that will only help him with this one last push he seems to be making.
He's back to #2 in the world and could possibly get back to #1 and IF he can do it IMO that would be as impressive, at this point in the twilight of his career when most all players go down in the rankings, as his 16 majors is and I for one will be very interested to see how the rest of this year plays out.
The thing that has changed is that Federer had to learn to become more mentally tough and think strategy more rather than just riding the crescendo of confidence like he used to. When he started to lose to Nadal the dwindling of his confidence started to show and he suffered a lot of losses to him (granted most were on clay at first) and then started to have losses against other people too and it snowballed for a bit there, but he's learning how to be more tough and use his head more and that will only help him with this one last push he seems to be making.
He's back to #2 in the world and could possibly get back to #1 and IF he can do it IMO that would be as impressive, at this point in the twilight of his career when most all players go down in the rankings, as his 16 majors is and I for one will be very interested to see how the rest of this year plays out.
