How has the slam (and "goat") race affected your enjoyment of tennis? And...

[nolefam_2024]

I think both the lengths Fed went to to improve his game (especially his footwork and fitness early on) and Novak's natural talent are very much underrated.

You're looking at a superficial image. Truth is, Fed is a very hard worker and Novak is extremely talented.

And you are looking at every member like they are very honest. They are not.

 

[Mustard]

No real affect.

 

[Poisoned Slice]

This fact single-handedly disqualifies Andy Murray from any ATG discussions.

Get back to me when Berdych beats the greatest in 2 slam finals.

Look forward to your call.

 

[nolefam_2024]

No real affect.

Boom

 

[Kralingen]

Get back to me when Berdych beats the greatest in 2 slam finals.

Look forward to your call.

He beat Federer at Wimbledon and the US Open

 

[DSH]

Currently watching The Wire. I think I'll try the Sopranos next.

An underrated show is The Shield.
If you haven't seen it, I recommend you do.
It is one of the few series whose level go in crescendo each season until its magnus opum in the seventh and brutal final season.

 

[DSH]

The biggest problem for the GOAT race is that it's established unrealistic expectations for the rest of the tour. How many times have you seen people moan over there not being consistently great people and they don't realize that's how the tour generally is. Not that I mean obviously having great players is great but people who worry about such things need to pump the brakes and realize the Big 3 is an anomaly and should not be the expectation of your favorite player lol

It's like we're going from a multiverse battle to a terrestrial one in terms of a superhero comic book.

 

[GoatNo1]

why not allow to see who voted what? it would be interested to see whos fans in majority enjoyed it most or least.

 

[McGradey]

Yeah it honestly kind of ruined tennis. Every single person you talk to is now fully acquainted with the tribalistic arguing and talking points and everything is building up to some larger point about how your guy is the real GOAT. It’s exhausting.

My thoughts on it exactly. Will always love the game but the online fan aspect of it is cooked and always will be now.

 

[nolefam_2024]

My thoughts on it exactly. Will always love the game but the online fan aspect of it is cooked and always will be now.

Every single thing is today quantified and checked

Without quantifying things, we had given way too much leeway to the subjectivity that was in sports.

Literally same thing happening in every sport. As per basketball, I can see how the convo boils down to stats. Cold hard and would not allow TOO MUCH deviation from now on.

Some say magic is gone, I don't think so. It's made tennis far better.

 

[mike danny]

The GOAT Race and Fan Wars have sucked all the unpredictability and fun, respectively, out of tennis.

There are currently three players who can win Slams. And it's been this way for 20 years.

While it was nice watching those guys pile up the awards, trophies, and the bases of comparison, it's also been stultifying to see generations of exciting players go without the biggest prizes, and the stuff that ppl say about the non-top-3 players is just really maddening.

Or maybe we were spared of mediocre players winning the biggest prizes.

 

[RaulRamirez]

why not allow to see who voted what? it would be interested to see whos fans in majority enjoyed it most or least.

I think that collective numbers tell the tale here. The less childish fan wars, the better (for me, anyway).
Not a ton of votes yet, but fairly evenly split. [a. 15 b. 14 c. 10]

 

[nolefam_2024]

 

[mike danny]

Very much agreed, and while "Next Gen" and "Zed/Med/Tsit Gen" were/are disappointments, I also think that they caught a lot more abuse than they deserved. Not only did they have to take the stage after "The Beatles" [of tennis], but they also had to outplay them. Or if you will, try to come after Shakespeare and outwrite him.

I actually think the abuse that they've caught is deserved given that it's not just "The Beatles" of tennis that have kept them at bay.

 

[nolefam_2024]

As things are formalizing and better stats are getting kept, we are actually seeing better things like competition level and stuff

Decluttering is very important

 

[Breakpointerer]

Yes because you're one dimensional. You can only discuss Novak, can only understand anything tennis related as it relates to Novak.

@TW Staff approves lol

 

[Rosstour]

@TW Staff approves lol

I saw that!! Made my year

 

[Rosstour]

Or maybe we were spared of mediocre players winning the biggest prizes.

Perhaps, although I believe that they wouldn't have looked mediocre if they won those prizes. And I think a lot of mediocre talents won big prizes in the past and are consequently overrated by fans today

Like it's not uncommon to hear ppl say Sampras was the most dominant champ ever, but he and Andre never put the kind of stranglehold on the sport like even Fedal did, let alone the B3/4 at the peak of that era. So a lot more players broke through in the 90s that might have been a TPas or Zverev in other eras

 

[nolefam_2024]

Perhaps, although I believe that they wouldn't have looked mediocre if they won those prizes. And I think a lot of mediocre talents won big prizes in the past and are consequently overrated by fans today

Like it's not uncommon to hear ppl say Sampras was the most dominant champ ever, but he and Andre never put the kind of stranglehold on the sport like even Fedal did, let alone the B3/4 at the peak of that era. So a lot more players broke through in the 90s that might have been a TPas or Zverev in other eras

It's simple. The big 3 are huge benefactors of homogenization. Sampras wasn't.

It's much harder to reach clay finals when your entire shtick is becoming monster on fastest courts.

 

[GoatNo1]

It's simple. The big 3 are huge benefactors of homogenization. Sampras wasn't.

It's much harder to reach clay finals when your entire shtick is becoming monster on fastest courts.

that's why rafa has 14 RG and 2 W and AO (1 is *) and fed 8 W and 1 RG?

 

[nolefam_2024]

that's why rafa has 14 RG and 2 W and AO (1 is *) and fed 8 W and 1 RG?

You are very right. Astute observation. Nadal has 14 rg because he is king of clay. But he also has 8 outside which seems too high.

And fed has 5 rg finals compared to most Wimbledon gods of the 80s and 90s who barely have 1.

 

[nolefam_2024]

It's simple. Without nadal both fedkovic would have around 4 to 5 cgs

Without one of fedkovic , nadal would have 4 cgs. They got stopped by each other but they only had each other.

So to come back and say Sampras + (Agassi) didn't dominate the tour same way , we must provide context.

 

[ChrisRF]

They made me watch every single masters tournament during their great days as if it was a Slam.

And the GOAT race made every Slam more meaningful than ever.

 

[GoatNo1]

You are very right. Astute observation. Nadal has 14 rg because he is king of clay. But he also has 8 outside which seems too high.

And fed has 5 rg finals compared to most Wimbledon gods of the 80s and 90s who barely have 1.

borg?
rafa has 8 slams outside RG BC of * AO and pretty favorable draws on HC and W rather than homogenization. in period 08-11 he never had nole or fed in his part of draw and denko on HC slams (he was 0-6 on HC vs denko in that period and 1-6 in total). he never met fed at USO and for his last 2 USO titles he won vs only 1 top20 player!

 

[mtommer]

No real affect.

I agree. For me, I don't care in the slightest. I'm not a fan of any player. I don't care who wins or loses the most. When I do watch tennis, it's in hopes of a good, well fought battle. I would rather watch a good outer courts match than a boring stadium court match anyday. If there are no good matches, I turn off tennis and watch something else or I go out and hit the fuzzy ball around myself.

 

[nolefam_2024]

@RaulRamirez one of the best tense moment of the SLAM race is when Djokovic asks Federer, do you want to replay or give the point at championship point in Wimbledon 2019. The Federer face of disdain is absolute cinema. Very tense moment. Not sure how many such points exist in tennis.

At 4:56:40

 

[McGradey]

Every single thing is today quantified and checked

Without quantifying things, we had given way too much leeway to the subjectivity that was in sports.

Literally same thing happening in every sport. As per basketball, I can see how the convo boils down to stats. Cold hard and would not allow TOO MUCH deviation from now on.

Some say magic is gone, I don't think so. It's made tennis far better.

That’s fine and I’m all for well reasoned and evidence based discussion. I think it’s extremely boring to just fire stats back and forth without any insight or nuance in the discussion, and that seems to be what you’re advocating for, despite being capable of better than that.

 

[nolefam_2024]

borg?
rafa has 8 slams outside RG BC of * AO and pretty favorable draws on HC and W rather than homogenization. in period 08-11 he never had nole or fed in his part of draw and denko on HC slams (he was 0-6 on HC vs denko in that period and 1-6 in total). he never met fed at USO and for his last 2 USO titles he won vs only 1 top20 player!

Strictly mentioned in 80s and 90s. Borg won in 70s. Wooden rackets. It's very different game in 80s.

 

[nolefam_2024]

That’s fine and I’m all for well reasoned and evidence based discussion. I think it’s extremely boring to just fire stats back and forth without any insight or nuance in the discussion, and that seems to be what you’re advocating for, despite being capable of better than that.

No I didn't advocate for that. We can deviate and add context off course but we have to be reasonable with it. That's why I said don't deviate TOO MUCH from the stats..some is fine.

 

[vokazu]

It increases enjoyment of watching tennis, because future generations will be more motivated to achieve better results than the big 3, to compete and fight harder, and maybe smarter (as in technology, health maintenance, and so on).

 

[M4tchP0int]

Yeah, that was bad. Before Alcaraz and Sinner, the last young up and coming player I thought was a legit slam winning talent was Delpo back in 2009.

it's quite amazing for a player who unconsciously seems very frequently injured to have been able to grab 22 titles in his career

 

[GoatNo1]

@RaulRamirez one of the best tense moment of the SLAM race is when Djokovic asks Federer, do you want to replay or give the point at championship point in Wimbledon 2019. The Federer face of disdain is absolute cinema. Very tense moment. Not sure how many such points exist in tennis.

At 4:56:40

i think that he just ask referee if he is sure that they have to repite the point.

 

[Rosstour]

It's simple. The big 3 are huge benefactors of homogenization. Sampras wasn't.

It's much harder to reach clay finals when your entire shtick is becoming monster on fastest courts.

Yeah. But there were other factors too, Sampras just didn't play as long for one. Nadal won most RGs for almost 20 years, Pete owned Wimbledon for like half that. The B3 had much better durability than Sampras, even Nadal who was probably the least durable.

 

[nolefam_2024]

i think that he just ask referee if he is sure that they have to repite the point.

Oh yeah, sorry, to the umpire, but Fed was very angry. It was a tense moment in the slam race.

 

[GoatNo1]

it's quite amazing for a player who unconsciously seems very frequently injured to have been able to grab 22 titles in his career

he manage to be injury free in right times. like NEVER at RG in his whole slam winning career years, 05-22

 

[RaulRamirez]

@RaulRamirez one of the best tense moment of the SLAM race is when Djokovic asks Federer, do you want to replay or give the point at championship point in Wimbledon 2019. The Federer face of disdain is absolute cinema. Very tense moment. Not sure how many such points exist in tennis.

At 4:56:40

This may be better for another thread, actually. I like some of your posts, but truly, this was not designed for any kind of one-upsmanship between fan bases.

 

[mtommer]

it's quite amazing for a player who unconsciously seems very frequently injured to have been able to grab 22 titles in his career

Must be the mutant healing factor. Not quite Wolverine level but "heals in time for the finals" level.

 

[objection_]

He was making a general point which you unintentionally proved. He wasn't discussing any particular player but you had to make it into a Nole v Federer thing.

Lol when the admin upvotes your post you know you made a point.

 

[The Great Gatsby]

Again, they have losing records to the guys they’d be comparing them to, lol. All it takes is a single Google search and they’d figure it out. Imagine this, an “old fan” and a “new fan” are arguing who’s better between RAFA and Sincaraz. And the new fan says that Sincaraz would both smoke RAFA if they played him. And after doing aforementioned Google search finds out that it’s actually Sincaraz who’re always going to have the losing record in that matchup. There’s being ignorant in history and then there’s just being lazy. For example, when I became a fan of RAFA in 04 I went looking for any possible matches I might have missed. And the first matchup I looked for was any possible match where he would have played Guga to see how he faired against him.

No one will care because you can simply say they beat them when they weren't at their peak.

Peak Sinner probably isn't going to be 23. Peak Alcaraz probably isn't going to be 21.

"Djokovic had a 5-3 head-to-head against Alcaraz, but that was before Alcaraz won the calendar slam in 202X. So who cares."

You know how this works.

 

[Rosstour]

Lol when the admin upvotes your post you know you made a point.

Right? Amazing. I feel blessed haha

 

[nolefam_2024]

This may be better for another thread, actually. I like some of your posts, but truly, this was not designed for any kind of one-upsmanship between fan bases.

No no, this is related to this thread..this type of tension is not seen in matches now for long time because what is at stake..

 

[M4tchP0int]

he manage to be injury free in right times. like NEVER at RG in his whole slam winning career years, 05-22

I'm speaking about Delpotro's total number of ATP titles not about Rafa's slam numbers

 

[messiahrobins]

The schlem race, GOAT race, outer space hasn’t affected my enjoyment of tennis in the slightest.

Now what has affected my enjoyment of tennis is the massively decreased level that’s been played after the Big 3 left their primes. The generations that have come after them have been arse cheeks. And the moment it looked like we finally had 2 potential ATG players after waiting for more than a decade after the last ATG cemented himself as one it turns out that 1 of those 2 players was doping.

I love the GOAT arguments, but then older generations are used to such pub banter about sports. Younger people are more sensitive and perhaps they found it all a bit upsetting, certainly if we look at the likes of PavyG on X and his cohorts that seems to be the case.
What has reduced my interest in tennis and in sport in general is how woke its all gone and how soft players are, all this hugging each other at the net, or crying after a win (or often a loss). Why on earth men would want to be seen crying in public is beyond me and its just a bit nauseating now, as is in team events this thing of players bringing their kids on the pitch. God help us if tennis players start doing that.

 

[The Blond Blur]

No one will care because you can simply say they beat them when they weren't at their peak.

Peak Sinner probably isn't going to be 23. Peak Alcaraz probably isn't going to be 21.

"Djokovic had a 5-3 head-to-head against Alcaraz, but that was before Alcaraz won the calendar slam in 202X. So who cares."

You know how this works.

And the same thing applies to the Big 3 since they were old enough to have fathered Sincaraz, lol. I mean RAFA by himself was 5-1 vs them.

 

[BorgTheGOAT]

Get back to me when Berdych beats the greatest in 2 slam finals.

Look forward to your call.

Berdych beat all big three in slams. On top, nobody said that Berd is an ATG or better than Murray, far from it. However, the fact that a more or less second tier player like Berd could score a better H2H at slams against the big three, shows again that Murray’s ceiling at the biggest stages was not particularly high. Similar to Ferrer he was very consistent in beating players he should beat but pretty much useless against the big shots (of course still better than Ferrer).

 

[Angrybirdstar]

Berdych only managed his slam record against the Big 3 because he could disproportionately catch them before they were in form, whereas Murray was good enough to consistently meet them in later rounds where they were more likely to be dangerous

Berdych 2-5000 24 vs Big 3 in SFs/Fs (Wimbly '10 vs Djokovic, Dubai '13 vs Federer); Murray 24-39

the GOAT race may kill a lot of brain cells, but it also helps a lot of people get into tennis, so, it;s impossible to say if its bad or not, (dril me)

 

[BorgTheGOAT]

Berdych only managed his slam record against the Big 3 because he could disproportionately catch them before they were in form, whereas Murray was good enough to consistently meet them in later rounds where they were more likely to be dangerous

Berdych 2-5000 24 vs Big 3 in SFs/Fs (Wimbly '10 vs Djokovic, Dubai '13 vs Federer); Murray 24-39

the GOAT race may kill a lot of brain cells, but it also helps a lot of people get into tennis, so, it;s impossible to say if its bad or not, (dril me)

Murray got a very exhausted Nadal in USO 2008, an injured Nadal in AO 2010, a very weak Djokovic in Wimbledon 2013, and Federer in his worst year of 2013 (still needed 5 sets). Berdych caught the big three at very bad moments as well I admit, but nevertheless, none of Murray’s wins really impresses so all in all it evens out I guess.

 

[RS]

So how many more wins did Murray need vs the big 3?

 

[nolefam_2024]

Berdych only managed his slam record against the Big 3 because he could disproportionately catch them before they were in form, whereas Murray was good enough to consistently meet them in later rounds where they were more likely to be dangerous

Berdych 2-5000 24 vs Big 3 in SFs/Fs (Wimbly '10 vs Djokovic, Dubai '13 vs Federer); Murray 24-39

the GOAT race may kill a lot of brain cells, but it also helps a lot of people get into tennis, so, it;s impossible to say if its bad or not, (dril me)

200%

 

[M4tchP0int]

Murray got a very exhausted Nadal in USO 2008, an injured Nadal in AO 2010, a very weak Djokovic in Wimbledon 2013, and Federer in his worst year of 2013 (still needed 5 sets). Berdych caught the big three at very bad moments as well I admit, but nevertheless, none of Murray’s wins really impresses so all in all it evens out I guess.

Murray's win in US12 might be slightly more impressive than any of berdych win in slams against Big3. But nothing fantastic and under very specific circumstances (no day of rest during saturday with 1 or 2 sets to play vs ferrer) + a huge wind. You also have the mirrors finals win for Murray against Novak in Wim13 and Fed Olympics 2012 where both went flat due to the delpotro slugfest in the previous rounds (SF). And then last but not least Raonic on grass who unfortunately moves like an hippopotamus on a skating-rink . Raonic is only relevant to make a bodybuilding contest with his calves against Jay Kutler