How high should kick serve ball go up from your racquet

[hieu1811]

As title, I'm starting to practice this shot, and wonder how high should the ball go up from your racquet before going down.

From Federer kick in 0:28, it doesn't seem like the ball is going any where up but downward straight after leaving his racquet.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xbC31AQqSg

Also, for ball toss i find it easier to just throw it directly above my head ( it will land at baseline) vs. Federer's throw more than a feet into the court. Should i try to target to throw it more forward like him?

 

[andreh]

1) Kick serves are usually hit above your head and not so much into the court. I think Fed leans into court a bit so when he makes contact so it's still somewhat above his head.

2) If the trajectory of the ball when leaving the racket is "up" or "down" compared to the plane of the court (I believe this is your questions?) depends alot on how much kick you want and how tall you are. Most players would hit the ball straight or slightly up, I believe. Sometimes the TV image and camera angle that makes it look like pros hits down when they don't.

 

[andreh]

^^ I'm sure there's a few coaches here who can explain it better.

 

[Attila_the_gorilla]

The really good servers don't hit up. They just close the racket face slightly to add top spin, and brush across the ball to add the sidespin. Their high extension and racket head speed ensure that the ball still goes over the net.

For most of us recreational players, it's more realistic to brush up (diagonally) for a kick serve. How high, well that depends on how much margin you want over the net, and how much speed you're willing to sacrifice.

 

[hieu1811]

1) Kick serves are usually hit above your head and not so much into the court. I think Fed leans into court a bit so when he makes contact so it's still somewhat above his head.

2) If the trajectory of the ball when leaving the racket is "up" or "down" compared to the plane of the court (I believe this is your questions?) depends alot on how much kick you want and how tall you are. Most players would hit the ball straight or slightly up, I believe. Sometimes the TV image and camera angle that makes it look like pros hits down when they don't.

That's right thats my question.

Another question is right now i have tendency to open up into the court when hitting, vs. remaining sideway at contact. Can I compensate this by starting position more closed, so when i hit it, my position is sideway and i have the extra force of body rotation?

 

[arche3]

A rec kick serve is a fluff ball. That's why it is tossed behind the head and brushed up with a ball path higher than the racket impact. Because that's the wrong way to hit a kick serve.

Watch a top pro. A top junior. A good college player. A kick serve toss is still well into the court. Why? So they can have pace. The body is rotated less into the ball and swing path is altered from a flatter serve. The body jumps/leans into the court/ toss/ ball so it approaches being under the toss. The ball is hit down. Pat rafter described it as 11-7 o clock. What your trying to accomplish is movement from side to side and a jump at the bounce with pace. Not how high it bounces. If your tall and hit with tons of spin and pace it will bounce high. If your shorter it will not bounce as high but it will fly sideways in the air and bounce in the opposite direction of the ball flight. This movement is what makes your opponent respect the ball. The spin is what allows you to hit with pace and still drop it in the box all the time.

A rec fluff kick with no pace is a sitting duck for a good player. Run up to it and smack it on the rise for a winner. No pace minimal movement. So easy to control.

 

[hieu1811]

Well thanks. I need to know the main directions before proceeding to practice. Right now I'm trying to hit a few hundred serves per week. Will start with light hitting, as my shadow swing is ok, but whenever I throw the damn balls up, my swing immediately differs from my shadow swing

 

[sureshs]

The really good servers don't hit up.

One of the best observations I have seen

 

[andreh]

Deleted. Double post

 

[andreh]

^^ What about the player's height? A pro is generally over 6 feet tall. A 5.5 feet tall rec guy? Can he hit with markedly downward trajectory? Or will the serve catch the net?

 

[arche3]

^^ What about the player's height? A pro is generally over 6 feet tall. A 5.5 feet tall rec guy? Can he hit with markedly downward trajectory? Or will the serve catch the net?

5'5" add 27 inches for racket length. Add arm length. Your hitting well above net height at contact. Slightly downward or even straight trajectory off contact with a lot of spin. Ball will drop in.
Only way is to practice and make the compromise of pace vs spin that your comfortable with. And that which gives you a solid high percentage spin serve that works at your level of opponents.

But yes. You can hit the kick serve at 5'5" and not have to hit it up. Just practice. Get a coach or watch videos. Its a hard thing to learn via forum posts.

 

[hieu1811]

So is there any progression for the really good servers I.e firstly they start with hitting up, and then over the years as they get more confident, they start flatten it out and hit downward? Or they just start hitting downward straight away?
I'm only 1.65m, sigh, I guess hitting down is gonna be difficult for me

 

[andreh]

5'5" add 27 inches for racket length. Add arm length. Your hitting well above net height at contact. Slightly downward or even straight trajectory off contact with a lot of spin. Ball will drop in.
Only way is to practice and make the compromise of pace vs spin that your comfortable with. And that which gives you a solid high percentage spin serve that works at your level of opponents.

But yes. You can hit the kick serve at 5'5" and not have to hit it up. Just practice. Get a coach or watch videos. Its a hard thing to learn via forum posts.

Ok. I actually don't know my own trajectory. Never filmed myself. I've been hitting kick serves for a decade and a half with good pace for both 1st and 2nd ball. Old S&V player here. Always toss well into the court too, but I lean in to get under the ball before contact. Always assumed it left the racket in a straight or slightly upward trajectory for kicks. I'm 1.75m tall BTW.

 

[TimeSpiral]

As title, I'm starting to practice this shot, and wonder how high should the ball go up from your racquet before going down.

From Federer kick in 0:28, it doesn't seem like the ball is going any where up but downward straight after leaving his racquet.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xbC31AQqSg

Also, for ball toss i find it easier to just throw it directly above my head ( it will land at baseline) vs. Federer's throw more than a feet into the court. Should i try to target to throw it more forward like him?

You're getting a good amount of feedback, and advice, but in my opinion a ton of practice is going to improve your kicker way more than any amount of technical advice you'll get from a forum. Go peruse the rest of this forum: nobody agrees on anything. :twisted:

Practice (a lot) the different configurations and techniques until you find a kicker you can use consistently effectively. Hitting your spots with the kicker, and getting the right spin is considerably more important than pace, imho.

If you can get the kicker deep in the box, and hit your spots, and hopefully get it up to about 5.5 - 6 feet off the court surface, then you should see a decent amount of neutral returns, and perhaps even some service return errors. It's when you drop it short in the box, with too little spin, and let your opponent find their weapon that you end up in big trouble off the kicker.

Just my two cents. I favor the kick on first and second serve and my service games--when I'm playing well--are typically hard to break (on hard courts). I'm pathetically bad on clay versus someone with a dependable weapon.

 

[Chas Tennis]

Link above on the forum screen. TW University

Physics of the Kick Serve by Rod Cross
http://twu.tennis-warehouse.com/learning_center/kickserve.php

Effective High Level Kick Serve.

Paragraph of text under Figure 11

".............Despite the fact that the server swings up at the ball in a kick serve, the ball must be projected downward below the horizontal for a good serve. The serve angle, A, is typically between 2 and 6 degrees below the horizontal. It was assumed in Fig. 11 that the ball is served down the center line when deciding whether the ball hit the net or was long, and when calculating the height of the ball as it crossed the baseline. "

Cross says that the reason that the serve kicks up is that the heavy spin causes the ball's trajectory to curve and hit the court at a steeper angle. With 80-100 MPH pace and heavy spin, say, 3000-4000 RPM, mostly sidespin, the kick serve is an effective high level serve.

'Lob' Kick Serve. In the questions, Cross also talks about a 'lob' kick serve that goes much slower and higher. The lob kick serve does go up from the racket. Not a pro level kick serve.

SLOW LOB KICK - NOT HIGH LEVEL KICK SERVE

Maybe rec players are mostly between the lob serve and the minimal high level kick serve that Cross describes as the minimum for an effective pro kick serve.

To video the ball's trajectory in order to show a few degrees of up or down, it's best to have the camera view at the height of impact and perpendicular to the ball's trajectory. Almost any video camera could show the projection angle. Telephoto is better, otherwise more wide angle distortions have to be accounted for. Hold up and video a level at the impact spot for reference (or a card with an angle scale).

 

[cjs]

^^ What about the player's height? A pro is generally over 6 feet tall. A 5.5 feet tall rec guy? Can he hit with markedly downward trajectory? Or will the serve catch the net?

The further your ball toss is over your head, rather than over your hitting shoulder, the more kick you can impart on the ball. You want your weight going forward and up with good leg drive, so you can still have power - so you don't want the ball behind you. The grip you use will also effect how much you brush the ball and thus how much spin. The more your serving grip moves from an eastern forehand to a backhand grip the more spin you can impart. But the trade off is the more spin you impart the more loopy your serve can get - and sometimes a kick serve can get too loopy and slow, and thus be smacked for a winner by your opponent.

I'm 5'7. My serve is probably my biggest weapon, but kick is essential at this height. My flat serves have been timed at over 200km/h, but I have a very poor service percentage with the flat fast serve. If your short to have a good serve you will need to learn to serve with heaps of kick. And yes, a short guy can obviously get downward trajectory with full extension and good leg drive. But the ball with never kick as high as a guy who is much taller.

The biggest issue I face is when I am hitting kick serves into a strong head wind - then they start to sit up, asking to be smacked. Into a head wind I reduce the amount of kick and hit a bit flatter.

My general serving strategy revolves around varying spins, pace and direction. I even vary grip when I serve to make subtle changes to the spin without changes in service action. I get many free points by not allowing the returner to get any rhythm. Being left handed helps here, as the spins you generate aren't as common as a right hander's.

Lastly, a good kick serve requires good leg drive, a strong core, and some back arch. A lifetime of hitting kick serves has given me a very unsymmetrical body!

 

[NLBwell]

For learning and practicing the kick serve, try to hit the ball very high - as high as the lights on some courts - and have the spin bring the ball into the service box. To do this will require the leg drive, usage of the core muscles, and an arched back that cjs mentions above as well as a loose arm and wrist to get the very high racket-head speed necessary. Once you get the racket-head speed and the ability to brush the ball exactly (you'll probably hit a bunch over the fence when you hit the frame), it isn't too hard to adjust the impact so that the ball flies forward instead of upward.

 

[LeeD]

Rochus can kick his twist serves as high as anyone's, around 6' high at the baseline, but it doesn't go as fast as Isner's.
A tall server, going purely for ball height, can kick it easily into the 6'6" high range at the baseline, but it won't be fast enough to bother his peers.

 

[cjs]

Rochus can kick his twist serves as high as anyone's, around 6' high at the baseline, but it doesn't go as fast as Isner's.
A tall server, going purely for ball height, can kick it easily into the 6'6" high range at the baseline, but it won't be fast enough to bother his peers.

Sorry but I disagree completely.

You're at a massive serving disadvantage being short.

The main issue is trajectory. When you hit the ball down from a great height it can bounce up to a great height, and it can rise more steeply. Its simple physics.

The simplest analogy I can think of is fast bowling in cricket (if your American you probably have no idea what I'm talking about). Tall bowlers have a steeper trajectory after the ball bounces than shorter bowlers. Its why short fast bowlers are often said to have a "skidding" delivery.

Longer levers (i.e. arms) also allow you to generate greater racquet head speed.

I've seen both Rochus brother play live and they have great kick serves but their serves definitely don't get big on players like an Isner serve does, or even a 6'2 Roddick kick serve.

 

[ProgressoR]

Are you short?

Sorry but I disagree completely.

You're at a massive serving disadvantage being short.

The main issue is trajectory. When you hit the ball down from a great height it can bounce up to a great height, and it can rise more steeply. Its simple physics.

The simplest analogy I can think of is fast bowling in cricket (if your American you probably have no idea what I'm talking about). Tall bowlers have a steeper trajectory after the ball bounces than shorter bowlers. Its why short fast bowlers are often said to have a "skidding" delivery.

Longer levers (i.e. arms) also allow you to generate greater racquet head speed.

I've seen both Rochus brother play live and they have great kick serves but their serves definitely don't get big on players like an Isner serve does, or even a 6'2 Roddick kick serve.

 

[arche3]

I am 5'9 and I feel short. In athletic terms I am short. For really any sport.

 

[LeeD]

Big DUH, short guys don't serve hard consistently, compared to tall guys.
But this thread is for KICK serves, not flat first serves.
Few but the top 10 could really attack Rochus's twist serves, on his first try. Sure, his second serve lacked ball speed, but hops was all there. Plenty of vids of his second serves bouncing well up over the shoulders, and the returner needing to step forwards to take it on the rise, well above his shoulders.
Local 4.0 guy around SanPablo courts kicks his second serve up over 5'9", and he's like 5'3" tall, at most.
And yes, some 6'5" guys can kick it higher, and hit it faster.

 

[SuperDuy]

Sorry but I disagree completely.

You're at a massive serving disadvantage being short.

The main issue is trajectory. When you hit the ball down from a great height it can bounce up to a great height, and it can rise more steeply. Its simple physics.

The simplest analogy I can think of is fast bowling in cricket (if your American you probably have no idea what I'm talking about). Tall bowlers have a steeper trajectory after the ball bounces than shorter bowlers. Its why short fast bowlers are often said to have a "skidding" delivery.

Longer levers (i.e. arms) also allow you to generate greater racquet head speed.

I've seen both Rochus brother play live and they have great kick serves but their serves definitely don't get big on players like an Isner serve does, or even a 6'2 Roddick kick serve.

It does make a difference, but at 177/178cm there is a few well known pros out there like Hewitt, Tipsaravic, etc Kojlschreiber just took a set off Nadal and was really hurting him the first set because of his serving.

Im 177cm and can kick it so it bounces over head high on 6ft opponent.


But I can see what you mean back in 2010 I was 5'6 and now I notice the extra 3.5inch makes a huge difference with my serving.


edit: add Ferrer to that list and many others too