How I plan to play pickleball to enhance my tennis game...

[nyta2]

played last night with other 4.5 tennis buddies (and one former div1 tennis player)... fun. i can see how it can get addicting... very fast paced... and minimal barrier to entry (don't need years of lessons, and thousands of hours of drills, ok to play with other beginners, etc... and still have fun)...

schedule permitting, i can see playing this once or twice a week in the winter, when i don't have other tennis games going on...

my thoughts on how i can use PB to help me in tennis:
* conti grip only.. specifically to enhance my s&v and c&c games... eg. first volley, and half volleys - i know the trend is towards eastern fh (ben johns), and also see alot of folks with 2hbh (i even bought an extended length handle which lets me hit my 2hbh well probably because i can keep the face more vertical with a 2nd hand... my fh is very mcenroe'eque... straight back straight forward and up, contact a bit further back in my strikezone... my 1hbh flat/topspin drive with conti grip still needs work (specifically finding the right contact point & face angle, and am intentionally not going to hit a 2hbh (which seemed to be an easy transition to PB - but in general only going to use strokes i'm trying to learn for tennis)... it does feel fun to channel my inner mcenroe on groundies (and very different feel from my tennis groundies (sw fh, 2hbh), so i don't see them conflicting)
* half volleys - (especially when s&v'ing)... i only ever practice this in tennis matches... hardly ever in practice (despite intentionally standing behind the serviceline to take volleys - opponents/practice partners tend to be cooperative and not intentionall hit it low )... and usally don't get alot of reps doing half volleys when coming into net... hitting the half volley midcourt reset seems like a great shot to own for tennis (dropshot).
* topspin volleys - tennis s&v'ers often hit this when stretched wide & low ... a shot i never even practiced in tennis.
* reaction volleys - it's like doing hundreds of closer-to-the-net volley volley drill reps (which i usually only do for 2m at the end of practice, with select people that have decent volleys)
* touch game... i used to play "dink'em" alot as a kid... and with my kid,... but adults don't really like doing it

some potential liabilities:
* staying behind the kitchen could be a bad habit in tennis (eg. where i'm always split stepping and moving forward/diagonally, even on reaction volleys in tennis i'm leaning forward)
* net is 2in lower in PB... could translate to more net cords in tennis (when action is fast enough where muscle memory kicks in)
* generally transitioning from string racquet to flat paddle... i can see confusing launch angle expectations... part of the reason i quit platform tennis... hard for me to transition between them


other ideas?

 

[ByeByePoly]

Oh friend … at least I waited until age 64. You are screwed now … it’s addictive.

Before I reply with “pickleball too different from tennis for crossover skills“ … let’s start with most important question … what pickleball paddle did you buy? After 6-8 weeks with my fiberglass paddle, I am still getting no satisfaction from contact regardless if I hit a winning drive or not. I ordered a carbon face paddle (see my thread) and am hoping it at least provides more fun/feel as I wait/hope they give up on this slick ball slick paddle nonsense. I wouldn’t want pickleball to turn into Nadal tennis either … but it doesn’t need to feel this bad at contact.

 

[nyta2]

Oh friend … at least I waited until age 64. You are screwed now … it’s addictive.

can definitely see playing this in winter, indoors... but tennis is still my first priority.

Before I reply with “pickleball too different from tennis for crossover skills“ … let’s start with most important question … what pickleball paddle did you buy? After 6-8 weeks with my fiberglass paddle, I am still getting no satisfaction from contact regardless if I hit a winning drive or not. I ordered a carbon face paddle (see my thread) and am hoping it at least provides more fun/feel as I wait/hope they give up on this slick ball slick paddle nonsense. I wouldn’t want pickleball to turn into Nadal tennis either … but it doesn’t need to feel this bad at contact.

Gamma Compass LH NeuCore Pickleball Paddle
extended handle fits my 2hbh perfectly... except i'm now planning to only hit conti
no idea if topspin is good, but i can get topspin hitting conti fh & bh... not nadal like top, more mcenroe top... which i presume is the norm for these paddles (they have a limit on the coefficient of friction a paddle surface can have)... if you believe the marketing, neucore is supposed to provide more feel...

 

[ByeByePoly]

Gamma Compass LH Pickleball Paddle | Total Pickleball

www.totalpickleball.com

6 1/4” grip … that is the longest I have seen … a couple are 6”. I think how tapered throat is matters, and it’s very tapered … about as good as it gets for a 2hbh. I find our 5.5” Prince without tapered throat good enough … but left hand index finger on back of paddle surface (which actually feels pretty good … would not have believed index finger off grip would feel fine).

7.2 oz … very light … maybe lead tape. I never lead taped my tennis racquets … but I did with Prince paddle. With tournagrip and lead tape took from 7.8 oz to 8.4 oz.

Your paddle is textured graphite … my guess that combined with extended paddle probably much better grip on wiffle than what I am experiencing. I hit a JOOLA carbon one day in our open play … and it was one of those “oh” moments.

Chris Olson great source for spin. He has a spreadsheet … I will link when I find it.

Breaking Down Pickleball Face Materials for Spin — ThePickleballStudio

The face material on your paddle are the two pieces glued to the core and are what you contact the ball with when you play. In this article, I’m going to break down what the different face materials are and how they can impact the characteristics of a paddle. The most familiar face materials are:

www.thepickleballstudio.com

Here is his paddle spreadsheet:

Pickleball Paddle Stats | Notion

This is a spreadsheet with detailed paddle information that ThePickleballStudio has tested. HOW TO USE THIS TOOL https://youtu.be/oGl3P7Dq3QY Views: There are several view options in this spreadsheet that you can see below. This is to help you narrow down the long list of information into...

thepickleballstudio.notion.site

 

[ByeByePoly]

My 6-8 weeks of pickleball has only further convinced me that my initial impression that good tennis level does not help much getting to good pickleball level. By “good pickleball“ level I mean your kitchen skills will determine results. No amount of great tennis strokes from the pickleball baseline will beat 4.0+ kitchen skills. Talking mainly doubles … but you can watch Ben Johns nullify great tennis strokes (Jay Devilliers) by turning it into kitchen game.

Tennis volleys/kitchen skills … this ex-4.5 s&v singles player has found we ain’t really hitting tennis volleys in pickleball. My dinking and touch was a good as the best from day one in open play, but my pickleball volleying wasn’/isn’t even close. Kitchen volley skills are much closer to ping pong … can’t close net, 4 people nipples to the net no stance change or torso rotation unless a sitter, not volley but quick arming hit straight from torso toward opponents. I see many of our good rec players and some pros basically hold paddle at kitchen in ready backhand ping pong/table tennis position. The good players care more about topspin on that low backhand ping pong hit than spin from baseline.

But you are suggesting something different … using pickleball to enhance/practice tennis (not a sneaky excuse to play evil pickleball ).

I would start here … obviously just my opinion based on 2 months:

I would make the bold proclamation that pickleball kitchen is so different from tennis net play (technique, stance, racquet instead of paddle, weight bounce and pace of ball on strings, etc) nothing here really is going to help/apply to tennis. I found one thing where it would help my tennis doubles … I went from 169lbs to 161lbs.

So … I am left with question of non-kitchen pickleball skills transfer to tennis. Even if possible… have to commit to bad pickleball … rather than get to kitchen the instant you can, hitting more from deeper in the court. One of the reasons I am looking forward to more topspin from my carbon paddle is when I play open doubles with wife, we end up playing against all levels. Most do not have “good enough” kitchen skills to nullify good tennis strokes from baseline … even 64 year old strokes. Ironically for me to enjoy tennis skills more in pickleball… I have to avoid 4.0+ where the kitchen level dictates who wins.

Funny you mention 1hbh slice, c&c, drop shot (3rd shot drop). As you know from our tennis discussions… I lived off my 1hbh slice. I think I hit my first 10 1hbh pickleball slices into the kitchen (my side). Wife was giggling … I am WTF. Weeks later … pretty much fixed it, but still happens. Last week hit a sad fluttering slice into bottom of net … and our 5.0ish head pro was watching behind our court. He was shaking his head … I said that would have been in and beautiful on the tennis court. This is an example of where paddle/wiffle ball skills probably do not migrate to tennis. In tennis … put racquet up behind head and hit descending blow on ball. Good luck with “any” descending blow on the wiffle. What you do instead is hit flat drive high enough angle for your target with an open face. 1000 pickleball 1hbh slice reps should be enough for your first 10 tennis 1hbhs to hit the fence in the fly.

One funny thing comes up with my 1hbh slice. There are many times at the kitchen where wiffle is just high enough where I should be hitting that arming flip topspin ping pong stroke. Instead … tennis muscle memory kicks in and hit slice bh just above the net. Sometimes with slick paddle and ball … I feel wiffle slide on paddle and hit plastic edge guard. Goes over, opponent struggles with it, feels terrible.

Keep posting on what you find out … what worked and what doesn’t. We are totally enjoying our weekly pickleball … hopefully carbon will make this tennis player enjoy it more. I will post if it does or doesn’t … killing me waiting for delivery (est Jan 20-24).

 

[nyta2]

My 6-8 weeks of pickleball has only further convinced me that my initial impression that good tennis level does not help much getting to good pickleball level. By “good pickleball“ level I mean your kitchen skills will determine results. No amount of great tennis strokes from the pickleball baseline will beat 4.0+ kitchen skills. Talking mainly doubles … but you can watch Ben Johns nullify great tennis strokes (Jay Devilliers) by turning it into kitchen game.

definitely don't plan to play groundstrokes much... even adopting a mcenroe fh/bh groundie, is more for no man's land half volley deep, when approaching (or first volley during s&v).

Tennis volleys/kitchen skills … this ex-4.5 s&v singles player has found we ain’t really hitting tennis volleys in pickleball. My dinking and touch was a good as the best from day one in open play, but my pickleball volleying wasn’/isn’t even close. Kitchen volley skills are much closer to ping pong … can’t close net, 4 people nipples to the net no stance change or torso rotation unless a sitter, not volley but quick arming hit straight from torso toward opponents. I see many of our good rec players and some pros basically hold paddle at kitchen in ready backhand ping pong/table tennis position. The good players care more about topspin on that low backhand ping pong hit than spin from baseline.

interestingly i've seen tennis players that have a topspin volley (rafter and the japanese guy that played fed)... typically used on outwide+low volleys
but you're right... volleys in PB are more akin to table tennis...
but they are also applicable to reflex volleys (ie. in tennis and PB they target the right hip/right chest when they go "body")

But you are suggesting something different … using pickleball to enhance/practice tennis (not a sneaky excuse to play evil pickleball ).

I would start here … obviously just my opinion based on 2 months:

I would make the bold proclamation that pickleball kitchen is so different from tennis net play (technique, stance, racquet instead of paddle, weight bounce and pace of ball on strings, etc) nothing here really is going to help/apply to tennis. I found one thing where it would help my tennis doubles … I went from 169lbs to 161lbs.

congrats on the weight loss

So … I am left with question of non-kitchen pickleball skills transfer to tennis. Even if possible… have to commit to bad pickleball … rather than get to kitchen the instant you can, hitting more from deeper in the court. One of the reasons I am looking forward to more topspin from my carbon paddle is when I play open doubles with wife, we end up playing against all levels. Most do not have “good enough” kitchen skills to nullify good tennis strokes from baseline … even 64 year old strokes. Ironically for me to enjoy tennis skills more in pickleball… I have to avoid 4.0+ where the kitchen level dictates who wins.

Funny you mention 1hbh slice, c&c, drop shot (3rd shot drop). As you know from our tennis discussions… I lived off my 1hbh slice. I think I hit my first 10 1hbh pickleball slices into the kitchen (my side). Wife was giggling … I am WTF. Weeks later … pretty much fixed it, but still happens. Last week hit a sad fluttering slice into bottom of net … and our 5.0ish head pro was watching behind our court. He was shaking his head … I said that would have been in and beautiful on the tennis court. This is an example of where paddle/wiffle ball skills probably do not migrate to tennis. In tennis … put racquet up behind head and hit descending blow on ball. Good luck with “any” descending blow on the wiffle. What you do instead is hit flat drive high enough angle for your target with an open face. 1000 pickleball 1hbh slice reps should be enough for your first 10 tennis 1hbhs to hit the fence in the fly.

my "bh slice" was working in PB... key is not to start head high... need to start at the level of the contact point... more of a slice flat drive vs. a heavy spinny skidder.

One funny thing comes up with my 1hbh slice. There are many times at the kitchen where wiffle is just high enough where I should be hitting that arming flip topspin ping pong stroke. Instead … tennis muscle memory kicks in and hit slice bh just above the net. Sometimes with slick paddle and ball … I feel wiffle slide on paddle and hit plastic edge guard. Goes over, opponent struggles with it, feels terrible.

same

Keep posting on what you find out … what worked and what doesn’t. We are totally enjoying our weekly pickleball … hopefully carbon will make this tennis player enjoy it more. I will post if it does or doesn’t … killing me waiting for delivery (est Jan 20-24).

 

[ByeByePoly]

@nyta … meant to tell you an interesting observation from our weekly open play. I have seen a lot of good 2hbh drives, often females that had played tennis. I can’t think of one big 1hbh drive, even from the best guys. In pro matches … seems more 2hbh at the top … Jay Devillier an exception with great 1hbh.

Not sure why … but a couple of guesses. It is much easier to hide your bh in pickleball doubles then tennis doubles. I hit a decent 1hbh drive in tennis, but I found/find it more challenging to get paddle ”square enough” on 1hbh contact. Perhaps this is just too few reps thing … it always took me a lot of reps to get good at any tennis stroke. But … I was good to go on first paddle fh … felt solid and square. Other weird thing … my ball machine not quite ready for tennis match play 2hbh felt very square/solid at contact on first paddle swing … nailed it down the line. I had a good laugh … how could something that looks so ridiculous as two hands on a little paddle work … and yet it does. The 2hbh volleys look twice as a ridiculous … but Riley Newman ranked 4th on ppa tour doubles. Crazy fast hands and offense at the kitchen.

One thing I will be curious about is if my baseline (lol … calling something baseline that is 2ft past tennis service box ) drives improve from both wings with the added carbon grip. There is always the element of babying the drive some due to lack of full control at contact with current fiberglass surface.

I hope you play a lot … will be great to compare notes with a ttw tips tennis brother. I give you a couple of weeks before you say “screw this … welcome to my Gamma 2hbh”.

If you didn’t see this … you might enjoy it. When I said good tennis strokes from baseline would not beat two 4.0+ kitchen skills, that did not include Jack Sock. I think he could by himself from other side.

 

[ByeByePoly]

Random thought … that key pickleball kitchen ping pong arming backhand skill is exactly what we decry in tennis as flawed technique that can cause tennis elbow. I’m surprised every rec pickleball court isn’t filled with tennis elbow straps. I have seen a couple, and some talking about prior TE. Maybe it’s because the pickleball is 26g … you can’t win the tennis ball/racquet collision with pushing 1hbh, but you can with paddle/wiffle. I will not be getting rid of the theraband flexbar or stop massaging the forearm.

 

[ByeByePoly]

ttw tennis tips forum members will love this … pickleball reverse atp backhand

She should stop her analysis now before she descends into the internal external shoulder rotation rabbit hole abyss… we should warn her.

 

[optic yellow]

I hit a decent 1hbh drive in tennis, but I found/find it more challenging to get paddle ”square enough” on 1hbh contact. Perhaps this is just too few reps thing … it always took me a lot of reps to get good at any tennis stroke. But … I was good to go on first paddle fh … felt solid and square. Other weird thing … my ball machine not quite ready for tennis match play 2hbh felt very square/solid at contact on first paddle swing … nailed it down the line. I had a good laugh … how could something that looks so ridiculous as two hands on a little paddle work … and yet it does. The 2hbh volleys look twice as a ridiculous … but Riley Newman ranked 4th on ppa tour doubles. Crazy fast hands and offense at the kitchen

I oddly noticed the same thing in racquetball.

 

[nyta2]

lol i haven't been back to PB yet... hard to juggle PB and tennis... either i have the option to play tennis, or i need a recovery day from 2-3d of straight tennis playing days...
it's fun when i'm with my fellow 4.5 tennis buddies, but not fun playing with a bunch of unathletic/uncoordinated PB3.0's (which is probably where i below atm due to poor shot selection, and lack of PB specific shots)
so i guess i'll have to see if i go back to PB... not to mention it's 20-30m drive for me to play PB (tennis is 5m away )

 

[Deleted member 775108]

 

[atatu]

My 6-8 weeks of pickleball has only further convinced me that my initial impression that good tennis level does not help much getting to good pickleball level. By “good pickleball“ level I mean your kitchen skills will determine results. No amount of great tennis strokes from the pickleball baseline will beat 4.0+ kitchen skills. Talking mainly doubles … but you can watch Ben Johns nullify great tennis strokes (Jay Devilliers) by turning it into kitchen game.

Um...I promise you that if Monfils played against someone with 4.0 kitchen skills he'd crush them easily.

 

[A_Instead]

4.0 in pickleball is much easier to achieve and sustain than 4.0 in tennis..
And it's way faster to reach that mark.. way faster.. not even comparable..

 

[ByeByePoly]

Um...I promise you that if Monfils played against someone with 4.0 kitchen skills he'd crush them easily.

4.0 in pickleball is much easier to achieve and sustain than 4.0 in tennis..
And it's way faster to reach that mark.. way faster.. not even comparable..

I was trying to emphasize the point that at least in doubles … once past beginner levels of pickleball … kitchen skills rule. Tennis players are used to their baseline skills being crucial … and it is a bit of a shock not so much in Pickleball. 4.0 was just an arbitrary “past beginner” demarcation … use 4.5 or 5.0 if one prefers.

 

[ByeByePoly]

Um...I promise you that if Monfils played against someone with 4.0 kitchen skills he'd crush them easily.

Have you played Pickleball? If so … didn’t you soon see tennis strokes don’t count for as much in Pickleball as we might have guessed.

 

[ByeByePoly]

lol i haven't been back to PB yet... hard to juggle PB and tennis... either i have the option to play tennis, or i need a recovery day from 2-3d of straight tennis playing days...
it's fun when i'm with my fellow 4.5 tennis buddies, but not fun playing with a bunch of unathletic/uncoordinated PB3.0's (which is probably where i below atm due to poor shot selection, and lack of PB specific shots)
so i guess i'll have to see if i go back to PB... not to mention it's 20-30m drive for me to play PB (tennis is 5m away )

Come on … you have enough ttw street cred to give me cover for playing pball. 20-30 minutes is nothing.

 

[Bill Lobsalot]

Play your music loud and hold a beer in your left hand. Instant enhancement. I only play pickleball when the shuffleboard courts are full.

 

[atatu]

Have you played Pickleball? If so … didn’t you soon see tennis strokes don’t count for as much in Pickleball as we might have guessed.

Do you consider volleys "tennis strokes" because any ATP pro would beat a 4.0 pickleball player just because they can volley so much better.

 

[ByeByePoly]

Do you consider volleys "tennis strokes" because any ATP pro would beat a 4.0 pickleball player just because they can volley so much better.

Based on that I am going to assume you haven’t played pickleball. I say that because I have a good volley in tennis, and I assumed that would be a straight transition to pickleball. Pickleball volleys are not tennis volleys … oh how I wish they were.

So I repeat my question … have you played pickleball yet? If no … try it once and after the cussing … post how it went.

 

[atatu]

Based on that I am going to assume you haven’t played pickleball. I say that because I have a good volley in tennis, and I assumed that would be a straight transition to pickleball. Pickleball volleys are not tennis volleys … oh how I wish they were.

So I repeat my question … have you played pickleball yet? If no … try it once and after the cussing … post how it went.

I've played twice actually and yes won both times. If you honestly think a 4.0 doubles team with good dinks would beat an ATP doubles team than I'll say that your sense of reality is somewhat distorted. A friend of mine tried to tell me that Zane Navratil is more athletic that Alcaraz or Sinner, also distorted.

 

[ByeByePoly]

I've played twice actually and yes won both times. If you honestly think a 4.0 doubles team with good dinks would beat an ATP doubles team than I'll say that your sense of reality is somewhat distorted. A friend of mine tried to tell me that Zane Navratil is more athletic that Alcaraz or Sinner, also distorted.

I was simply trying to make the point high level tennis skills do not make you a high level pickleball player. Ben Johns said the same thing … you get a head start, but then there is substantial learning curve getting to high level. We have talked in ttw tips, and I have watched your tennis videos. No idea why you are so hostile here, but I have now tired of it. Later … good luck in your tennis tournaments.

 

[sureshs]

It is good for:

• Days of bad weather when you can find an indoors Pickleball court in a rec center for free
• When your schedule does not allow you to plan for tennis but a quickie pickup Pickleball game is always available somewhere for exercise
• if you are single and looking - many females are into Pickle
• As an insurance for old age

 

[sureshs]

I was simply trying to make the point high level tennis skills do not make you a high level pickleball player. Ben Johns said the same thing … you get a head start, but then there is substantial learning curve getting to high level. We have talked in ttw tips, and I have watched your tennis videos. No idea why you are so hostile here, but I have now tired of it. Later … good luck in your tennis tournaments.

And singles full-court Pickleball is tremendously difficult

 

[sureshs]

4.0 in pickleball is much easier to achieve and sustain than 4.0 in tennis..
And it's way faster to reach that mark.. way faster.. not even comparable..

Correct.

Beyond that level, things are not that simple.

 

[jimmy8]

Nooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!

 

[ByeByePoly]

And singles full-court Pickleball is tremendously difficult

Depends. I just played 4 singles games in a row … it was fine because I had the better strokes and young guy did most of the running. Two days ago the opposite … one game against a stronger player and was gassed in one game.

The reduced distance from baseline to kitchen is an old tennis player’s friend. What they didn’t reduce “much” is side to side, which is a problem against someone with precise dtl skills. But even there … force the action with aggressive first strike baseline shot and close to kitchen. Swinging volleys really come into play.

I was talking to a 5.0 pickleball head pro who plays local D1 tennis players in doubles. He said in doubles, they pretty much show up day one at about 3.0 level, and then have to go through big learning curve (obviously learn faster … good enough talent to be D1 tennis is going to learn quickly). They have to learn to stop trying to win playing tennis … need to play kitchen pickleball. We didn’t discuss singles … but obviously on day one most D1 players probably start out very high.

fyi … my lower back is not getting sore anymore. Guess it’s true … what doesn’t kill you makes you stronger.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

And singles full-court Pickleball is tremendously difficult

Pretty certain that singles badminton is more difficult than p'ball singles -- even tho the former is played on a slightly narrower court. Doubles badminton has alleys of 1.5 ft on either side.

 

[treo]

The outside dimension of a badminton court are the same size as a pickleball court. Singles badminton has 3 feet less to cover side to side than singles pickleball. All you need to do to play pickleball on a badminton court is to add a kitchen line and ignore the back service line. Skinny pickleball singles uses only half the court but a better option is to use the badminton singles lines.

A good strategy in full court singles is to always serve wide, then hit to the open court.

I found it fun to do a 10 point tennis tiebreak playing pickleball singles. Singles can be tiring if you forget to take a break. Using tennis scoring forces you to take breaks and then it is not nearly as tiring as tennis.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

The outside dimension of a badminton court are the same size as a pickleball court. Singles badminton has 3 feet less to cover side to side than singles pickleball. All you need to do to play pickleball on a badminton court is to add a kitchen line ...

The indoor pickleball I've seen, using badminton courts, use the existing badminton short service line as the kitchen line. That short service line is 6.5 ft off the net while a standard (outdoor) kitchen is 6 inches deeper. Sometime during the history of pball, the kitchen was moved back that extra 6" (tho I'm fairly certain that it was originally 6.5 ft).

Do rec players bother to add a 7 ft kitchen line rather than use the slightly smaller kitchen? How about for competitive play?

 

[treo]

If it is not a 7 foot kitchen line, you are not playing legit pickleball. Same thing with people playing pickleball on a paddle tennis court where the net is too low or with a tennis net that is too high.
Here is an indoor court that I have played at. The badminton net retracts into the floor and they lower it more for pickleball. Notice they have two lines near the net with the kitchen line 6 inches farther.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

If it is not a 7 foot kitchen line, you are not playing legit pickleball. Same thing with people playing pickleball on a paddle tennis court where the net is too low or with a tennis net that is too high.
Here is an indoor court that I have played at. The badminton net retracts into the floor and they lower it more for pickleball. Notice they have two lines near the net with the kitchen line 6 inches farther.

Where is this?

Extra lines wouldn't fly in most gyms around here. With lines for 4 basketball ball courts, 4 volleyball courts and 6 to 8 badminton courts in most gyms, there are already far too many lines. Quite often, parts of the badminton lines are missing in many high school and college gyms because basketball and then volleyball lines take precedence. Badminton is lower on the food chain. And pickleball is lower than in gyms.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

@ByeByePoly

The outside dimension of a badminton court are the same size as a pickleball court. Singles badminton has 3 feet less to cover side to side than singles pickleball. All you need to do to play pickleball on a badminton court is to add a kitchen line and ignore the back service line. Skinny pickleball singles uses only half the court but a better option is to use the badminton singles lines.

A good strategy in full court singles is to always serve wide, then hit to the open court.

I found it fun to do a 10 point tennis tiebreak playing pickleball singles. Singles can be tiring if you forget to take a break. Using tennis scoring forces you to take breaks and then it is not nearly as tiring as tennis.

Even tho a singles badminton court is somewhat narrower than a pickleball court, competitive badminton is significanly more strenuous than pickleball singles. This is not to say that one cannot get a good workout from p'ball singles. But because of the nature of the game, badminton singles requires much more movement around the court than p'ball. (And badminton shuttles will often come off the racket in excess of 280 km/h (175 mph) -- faster than a tennis ball and much faster than a pickle ball).

In fact, badminton is more intense than tennis which, in turn, is more strenuous than pickleball. Note that the area of a tennis court is nearly 3x the area of a badminton court for singles. Yet, for a given amount of time, badminton is more strenuous (more calories / hr) than tennis. I've played both sports at a very competitive level. It would take more more than 3+ hours of singles tennis to get the same workout as 1.5 hrs of badminton singles.

While I've not played p'ball at the same level as I've played tennis & badm, I've watched enough very high level p'ball play to see the diff. Many of the best competitive p'ball players are ex-collegiate tennis players. They'll tell you that tennis is more strenuous than p'ball

 

[ByeByePoly]

@ByeByePoly

Even tho a singles badminton court is somewhat narrower than a pickleball court, competitive badminton is significanly more strenuous than pickleball singles. This is not to say that one cannot get a good workout from p'ball singles. But because of the nature of the game, badminton singles requires much more movement around the court than p'ball. (And badminton shuttles will often come off the racket in excess of 280 km/h (175 mph) -- faster than a tennis ball and much faster than a pickle ball).

In fact, badminton is more intense than tennis which, in turn, is more strenuous than pickleball. Note that the area of a tennis court is nearly 3x the area of a badminton court for singles. Yet, for a given amount of time, badminton is more strenuous (more calories / hr) than tennis. I've played both sports at a very competitive level. It would take more more than 3+ hours of singles tennis to get the same workout as 1.5 hrs of badminton singles.

While I've not played p'ball at the same level as I've played tennis & badm, I've watched enough very high level p'ball play to see the diff. Many of the best competitive p'ball players are ex-collegiate tennis players. They'll tell you that tennis is more strenuous than p'ball

It’s all easy compared to digging out fence post cement in summer baked clay soil.

 

[optic yellow]

@ByeByePoly

Even tho a singles badminton court is somewhat narrower than a pickleball court, competitive badminton is significanly more strenuous than pickleball singles. This is not to say that one cannot get a good workout from p'ball singles. But because of the nature of the game, badminton singles requires much more movement around the court than p'ball. (And badminton shuttles will often come off the racket in excess of 280 km/h (175 mph) -- faster than a tennis ball and much faster than a pickle ball).

In fact, badminton is more intense than tennis which, in turn, is more strenuous than pickleball. Note that the area of a tennis court is nearly 3x the area of a badminton court for singles. Yet, for a given amount of time, badminton is more strenuous (more calories / hr) than tennis. I've played both sports at a very competitive level. It would take more more than 3+ hours of singles tennis to get the same workout as 1.5 hrs of badminton singles.

While I've not played p'ball at the same level as I've played tennis & badm, I've watched enough very high level p'ball play to see the diff. Many of the best competitive p'ball players are ex-collegiate tennis players. They'll tell you that tennis is more strenuous than p'ball

wuuuuuuut

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

wuuuuuuut

Believe it. I played a ton of competitive badminton in the 1980s (& a bit in the 90s). Switched my focus back to tennis in the late 80s & early 90s.

I would often be exhausted after a 90 minute badminton singles match. When I switched to playing tennis tournaments, I found that I could play for several hours w/o feeling that level of exhaustion.

A badminton shuttle will come back to you much sooner than a tennis ball in a typical exchange. Rally lengths are comparable. On average, there will be more shots exchanged in a badminton rally but the tennis point will last a bit longer (in seconds). There is considerably less down-time between points for badminton. Less time picking up balls and starting the next point. You don't have 2 chances to start a point with your serve -- this tends to eat up a lot of time.

In tennis, breaks are taken after every 2 games -- so every 5-10 minutes. With badminton, using 15-pt classic scoring, a single game typically lasted 20-30 minutes w/o any significant breaks. For 21-pt rally scoring, the duration of a single game is usually a bit less than this. A fairly short, changeover, break was taken between the 1st and 2nd game of a match. A more extended break was allowed between the 2nd & 3rd games (if the players each won one game).

For a full match, the total caloric expenditure for a 2-4 hour tennis match and a 60-90 minute badminton match might be roughly equivalent.

 

[treo]

Where is this?

Extra lines wouldn't fly in most gyms around here. With lines for 4 basketball ball courts, 4 volleyball courts and 6 to 8 badminton courts in most gyms, there are already far too many lines. Quite often, parts of the badminton lines are missing in many high school and college gyms because basketball and then volleyball lines take precedence. Badminton is lower on the food chain. And pickleball is lower than in gyms.

This is at a local rec center. It takes a while to get used to all the lines but eventually you adjust. They built a new rec center over a year ago and the priorities seem to be in this order: basketball, pickleball then volleyball.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

@ByeByePoly

This is at a local rec center. It takes a while to get used to all the lines but eventually you adjust. They built a new rec center over a year ago and the priorities seem to be in this order: basketball, pickleball then volleyball.

Pickleball but no badminton lines!! This must be in the US somewhere. Worldwide, badminton is reported to be the #2 participation sport (after soccer / futbol). Something close to 1/3 billion ppl play. Even tho tennis is a popular spectator sport, badminton easily surpasses it as a participation sport in the world.

But not so much in the US. Here, it probably doesn't even crack the top 10 as a participation sport.

 

[optic yellow]

Believe it. I played a ton of competitive badminton in the 1980s (& a bit in the 90s). Switched my focus back to tennis in the late 80s & early 90s.

I would often be exhausted after a 90 minute badminton singles match. When I switched to playing tennis tournaments, I found that I could play for several hours w/o feeling that level of exhaustion.

A badminton shuttle will come back to you much sooner than a tennis ball in a typical exchange. Rally lengths are comparable. On average, there will be more shots exchanged in a badminton rally but the tennis point will last a bit longer (in seconds). There is considerably less down-time between points for badminton. Less time picking up balls and starting the next point. You don't have 2 chances to start a point with your serve -- this tends to eat up a lot of time.

In tennis, breaks are taken after every 2 games -- so every 5-10 minutes. With badminton, using 15-pt classic scoring, a single game typically lasted 20-30 minutes w/o any significant breaks. For 21-pt rally scoring, the duration of a single game is usually a bit less than this. A fairly short, changeover, break was taken between the 1st and 2nd game of a match. A more extended break was allowed between the 2nd & 3rd games (if the players each won one game).

For a full match, the total caloric expenditure for a 2-4 hour tennis match and a 60-90 minute badminton match might be roughly equivalent.

I do believe it it just blew my mind. Did not think about all the downtime in a tennis match or that badminton was so taxing but just went and watched a bit of the world championship final from last year and see that it's near constant dancing around on the feet.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

I do believe it it just blew my mind. Did not think about all the downtime in a tennis match or that badminton was so taxing but just went and watched a bit of the world championship final from last year and see that it's near constant dancing around on the feet.

Sadly, the newer 21-point rally scoring is a bit less taxing / demanding than the classic 15-point scoring.

 

[jonestim]

I sweat more in pickleball doubles than in tennis doubles. I noticed when my tacky overgrips could not keep up in pickleball. I had to switch to a dry overgrip, but can still play a tacky one in tennis. My shirts are more wet in pickleball.

There are points in tennis doubles that can be long, but there is also a lot of winners/errors off the serve, return, or a good poach. Average rally length is less than 4 shots. That does not provide much of a workout.

Pickleball courts are smaller, but rallies are longer and there is less time between them. And if you are playing reasonably high level (4.0+) then there is a good amount of movement.

 

[1HBHfanatic]

I sweat more in pickleball doubles than in tennis doubles. I noticed when my tacky overgrips could not keep up in pickleball. I had to switch to a dry overgrip, but can still play a tacky one in tennis. My shirts are more wet in pickleball.

There are points in tennis doubles that can be long, but there is also a lot of winners/errors off the serve, return, or a good poach. Average rally length is less than 4 shots. That does not provide much of a workout.

Pickleball courts are smaller, but rallies are longer and there is less time between them. And if you are playing reasonably high level (4.0+) then there is a good amount of movement.

-plus, one does not have time to relax in pickleball
-its a intense/fast game/sport
-someone i know compared it to a "knife fight"

 

[ByeByePoly]

I sweat more in pickleball doubles than in tennis doubles. I noticed when my tacky overgrips could not keep up in pickleball. I had to switch to a dry overgrip, but can still play a tacky one in tennis. My shirts are more wet in pickleball.

There are points in tennis doubles that can be long, but there is also a lot of winners/errors off the serve, return, or a good poach. Average rally length is less than 4 shots. That does not provide much of a workout.

Pickleball courts are smaller, but rallies are longer and there is less time between them. And if you are playing reasonably high level (4.0+) then there is a good amount of movement.

I have lost 10 lbs in a couple of months playing bad indoors pickleball doubles … never lost weight playing good indoor tennis doubles. I always found tennis doubles minimum exercise compared to tennis singles … unless you were outdoors in 90+ F with high humidity. It’s why when you got older you wanted to play USTA doubles if you advanced and played multiple matches on a weekend.

This is my observation/guess on pickleball rec doubles level of workout:

1) beginner level where points end quick - least exercise
2) middle level … long points, kitchen battles, kitchen offense needs work … max exercise
3) advanced … kitchen cat and mouse with small margins until put away - less than max

What I mean by higher levels rec play reaching efficiency/offense that saves energy:

Go watch a 3.5 tennis tournament singles final where both opponents are great movers, never miss, but not enough offense to end/shorten points.

Now go watch a 4.5 tennis singles final. Maybe one is s&v, maybe two strong baseliners efficiently battling not having to scramble up and back as often as the 3.5 war above.

I saw the same thing in racquetball… good movers without kill shots expend a lot of energy. High level players can end a point with one kill shot.

Talking rec levels here … at the top of the energy level requirement is beating Nadal in singles at the French Open.

 

[Cashman]

1. Take up pickleball
2. Convince all good tennis opponents to play pickleball
3. Quit pickleball
4. Dominate weakened tennis league

 

[ByeByePoly]

1. Take up pickleball
2. Convince all good tennis opponents to play pickleball
3. Quit pickleball
4. Dominate weakened tennis league

Senior tennis players wouldn’t do this … dwindling numbers already make it challenging to fill a couple of tennis doubles courts.

 

[Deleted member 775108]

How Doubles PB improved my tennis

1. Playing PB has made me realize my that instinctive spacing for tennis is not enough. I learnt tennis my catching the ball in left hand, the drop hit. Now I realize I should actually space the ball so that it is atleast 6"-8" past my full outstretched left hand (unless it is a very low or very high ball)

2. Injury Recovery - when can play something but not ready to go all out with tennis.

3. Keep Legs Moving - but have to be careful with this as if you play lazy PB you can fall into bad habits easily

4. Learn an alternate FH motion to hit a rally ball in tennis with forced forearm spin (but good natural spin) and less inconsistency - since proper PB FH has no real windshield wiper motion

5. Alternative for ultra cold days - most PB is indoors

6. Do something on off days - Tennis is hard on my body especially the way I play with unnecessary aggression.

7. Utimate ball focus and reactions - needed in high level PB fast net exchanges - I Hope this translates to tennis.

8. Staying low - PB needs you to stay low because of low bounce and when using knees and hips instead of bending with lower back this would great when translated to tennis

 

[Shroud]

can definitely see playing this in winter, indoors... but tennis is still my first priority.

Gamma Compass LH NeuCore Pickleball Paddle
extended handle fits my 2hbh perfectly... except i'm now planning to only hit conti
no idea if topspin is good, but i can get topspin hitting conti fh & bh... not nadal like top, more mcenroe top... which i presume is the norm for these paddles (they have a limit on the coefficient of friction a paddle surface can have)... if you believe the marketing, neucore is supposed to provide more feel...

Come on bro. 2 hands for pickleball? You are a strong dude

 

[ByeByePoly]

Come on bro. 2 hands for pickleball? You are a strong dude

26g wiffle strength

 

[Deleted member 775108]

4. Learn an alternate FH motion to hit a rally ball in tennis with forced forearm spin (but good natural spin) and less inconsistency - since proper PB FH has no real windshield wiper motion

Have to correct myself - Windsheild Wiper Forehand can be used with Raw Carbon Paddles with some extra focus for ultra hard and spinny hits - ball dives just like a tennis ball - but the rally ball with the alternative FH Motion comment still stands on its own.

 

[treo]

I listened to a recent Pickleball Studio podcast interview of Zane Navatril and he says he changes grips from continental, SW, and eastern just like tennis players do. He doesn't recommend this for players below 4.5 and said half of pros change grips. If your only using continental, you are losing out on power and spin on your forehand. I think SW would be hard for tall players since the ball bounces so low.