Pro pickleball should use the Pro Motocross claiming rule: The AMA amateur rulebook contains a “claiming rule” that states any rider in a class can choose to purchase another rider's bike for double the MSRP. The rule is in place to discourage riders from racing extremely expensive or exotic bikes.
How I plan to play pickleball to enhance my tennis game...
- Thread starter nyta2
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D
Deleted member 775108
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Doesnt work. i dont want my competitors tennis racquets either BUT Racing car yes!!
optic yellow
Legend
Okay so it's like CoR in golf clubs. Deflection is a bit of an odd term but if I was told I had to guess that is what I would have guessed so it works.
Why do you want to make an opponent hit up? The only thing I can think of is that even with the grit or whatever it is still relatively harder to impart topspin in PB than tennis + your paddle has a shorter reach than a tennis racquet so it is more annoying trying to scoop low bouncing balls.
ByeByePoly
G.O.A.T.
Yes … not much point to compare 26g wiffle topspin to tennis topspin. Pickleball is governed to not be tennis … which has meant very little topspin. Now the paddles are going through their sandpaper ping pong paddle years … so “some” topspin has been introduced. But it’s not like tennis where there is such a thing as heavy baseline topspin that jumps above the opponents strike zone. But like Zane was saying … in pro men’s pball singles that lesser topspin is still a weapon. At the higher levels there is very small height margins between a neutral ball and one an opponent can put away. Also … consider a baseline drive to opponent on other side 7ft off the net (kitchen). Without spin … a low to high drive off a low bouncing plastic ball even hit low over net keeps rising. A high level player needs very little extra height to attack … and now at kitchen with the “sandpaper” spin some even attack from below the net. Zane was saying given the court dimensions, plastic ball … and speed of opponents nobody is winning pro singles blasting to corners from baseline. So you get a lot of advancing forward … S&K (serve and kitchen
) … and that guy at kitchen will pounce on net level balls. Zane was saying this is where spin is a weapon countering the guy advancing to kitchen. Not about pace … about opponent hitting from low … think at his feet. Pickleball is not tennis … a blasted plastic ball from baseline to skilled opponent at kitchen is generally easily handled. Sometimes the harder hit ball works against you … holds it line/height over the net all the way to opponent. But drop, off pace maybe with some topspin now lands in kitchen and becomes neutral ball. It’s enough to make a tennis player want to break a paddle … but they cost too much.
You sound pickleball curious
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optic yellow
Legend
Okay I see the concept topspin can only be used to influence not to directly dominate which means you need line of sight of attack with power and working around the margins of the zone where this is possible from the kitchen is how it is best used at a high level. Someone hitting up lacks the line of sight to attack directly and the more they're hitting up the more likely they are to be forced into the losing choice of hitting it weakly into their opponent's winner zone or hitting it out because they lack the topspin required to get a powerfully struck ball closely over the net and down.Yes … not much point to compare 26g wiffle topspin to tennis topspin. Pickleball is governed to not be tennis … which has meant very little topspin. Now the paddles are going through their sandpaper ping pong paddle years … so “some” topspin has been introduced. But it’s not like tennis where there is such a thing as heavy baseline topspin that jumps above the opponents strike zone. But like Zane was saying … in pro men’s pball singles that lesser topspin is still a weapon. At the higher levels there is very small height margins between a neutral ball and one an opponent can put away. Also … consider a baseline drive to opponent on other side 7ft off the net (kitchen). Without spin … a low to high drive off a low bouncing plastic ball even hit low over net keeps rising. A high level player needs very little extra height to attack … and now at kitchen with the “sandpaper” spin some even attack from below the net. Zane was saying given the court dimensions, plastic ball … and speed of opponents nobody is winning pro singles blasting to corners from baseline. So you get a lot of advancing forward … S&K (serve and kitchen
You sound pickleball curious
Of course I'm pickleball curious. It still amuses me to no end seeing the game I played in junior high PE is now widespread and being taken so seriously.
ByeByePoly
G.O.A.T.
Probably do better with your own observation of men’s pro singles than someone like me 3 months in giving an opinion.
I like the camera angle here. Notice this pball match is all about lateral coverage at the kitchen (20 feet width, 7 feet from net). So to me … probably just as important (in singles) as making opponent hit up is the further you can push opponent laterally because the “some additional spin” increases your passing shot angle (one thing pball spin shares with tennis spin … adds to passing shot angles).
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ByeByePoly
G.O.A.T.
Zane said the same thing in the Chris and Will podcast I posted above. He said in singles severe angles are restricted because it just provides ATP to opponent. They were talking about ideas that might showcase skills/talent more … and one of Zane’s ideas was to just move posts a little wider (same court/lines … just move post wider). Not sure spectators would prefer more angles than ATP.
Edit: To me … the game (both doubles and singles) is already too kitchen/lateral dependent … so I would look to other things to make it more spectator friendly. I think you need to try some changes where the baseline isn’t relegated to just getting point started (yeah … I know pb coach/instruction cottage industry on non-kitchen skills … but any observer can see pickleball is 90%+ kitchen determinan).
I would try changes like the following … which would in fact move it closer to tennis:
- scoring
- two serves
- server can s&v
I would even experiment with getting rid of kitchen rules other than having to clear it on serves. Tennis doesn’t have a kitchen … and you don’t end up with all 4 players right up against the net. A pb player that gets right up against net would be vulnerable to the lob … even with plastic ball.
Yeah … I know that all sounds sacrilegious to many pickleball players, but if the goal is to sell this to a broader tv audience … the current game comes up short imo. (and this is from someone that is very much enjoying first 3 months of pickleball … open play with a mix of levels that might only be possible because of rules that narrow skills requirements).
Edit 2:
I would have no interest in pickleball becoming baseline Nadal tennis.
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D
Deleted member 775108
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The biggest improvement in my tennis I got from Pickleball is realizing that moving the sweet spot longer through the ball yields better and more consistent results. All flat, standard & loopy shots can be achieved by moving the sweet spot through the ball with just varying the amount of DOWN to UP on the motion. The face to path remains more or less consistent in all 3 cases. With this focus the ball is being hit more cleanly in tennis ground strokes. Post it is very obvious (to me) that the windshield wiper for tennis is something that happens more passively/automatically and should not be forced (which leads to more of a sideswipe motion and ball is contacted all over the face).... obviously specialty shots, low balls and stuff a forced wiper works great.
Another improvement was seen is that now low ball forehands and backhands are easier in tennis (post pickleball) since that is basically all that is happening in Pickleball.
Another improvement was seen is that now low ball forehands and backhands are easier in tennis (post pickleball) since that is basically all that is happening in Pickleball.
D
Deleted member 775108
Guest
EXACTLY!
While I can understand the benefits of your approach this destroy the broad fun and approach-ability of pickleball. I already feel bad for the older folks who have to play against me. If you remove the kitchen line I promise you some of those players will lose their will to play pickleball completely OR they will get me and other bangers ejected from the courts. 3.5 vs 5.0 OPEN PLAY tennis is basically nonsense for both parties because of the difference in quality of the ball. The 5.0 would lose interest when playing down. 3.5 vs 5.0 pickleball OPEN PLAY is still workable as the 5.0 can get their third shot drop / dinking practice or by staying back slightly on purpose.
ByeByePoly
G.O.A.T.
I just went the other way … starting tomorrow will bring a bit of tennis flare
to pb open play. You know how tennis players wedge the tennis ball on the ground between racquet and shoe and lift ball into air to avoid bending and picking it up? Yeah … a couple of paddle/plastic ball reps off brick floor in sunroom … and I got this.
Ball comes up spinning into left hand … there will be verbal abuse directed my direction from our new open play brothers and sisters (pb family).Also … we (wife) find all this paddle tapping kind of lame. We are going to try the paddle wave at each other
… will be able to do this from a distance. I really don’t like paddle tapping against the carbon.
ByeByePoly
G.O.A.T.
My observation after 2 months of open play is the upper players could already break the will to play of lower level players under current rules. The reason it doesn’t happen at our place is they take it easy with newbies … and … they have groups where they put their 4 paddles up together and then play each other. Open play is a very fascinating observation of human nature, behavior and ingenuity.
ByeByePoly
G.O.A.T.
btw … yes to the third shot drop / dinking practice when not challenged. We did our first drilling last week … we have only played open play. Just me and the wife … found a court in afternoon dead time … and worked on 3rd shot drops. We have not been hitting 3rd shot drops … just drives … we are … were … respectable tennis players.
Drill went great … turns out my lethal tennis 1hbh drop shot migrates to paddle better than I would have guessed. But with tennis … rarely hit fh drop shot … but with plastic ball fh upward arming swing from shoulder is definitely the way to go. Anyway … even after the one drill … we will now add that to practice during a match.Using very broad pb categories … beginner, intermediate and advanced … I would call both of us intermediate. The tennis competitor in me (too many years … hard to turn off the switch) is now asking myself how hard do I want to push reaching my max pb level. Perhaps it’s a nonsense question at 65 to begin with … but I still move athletically … doubles on a small court seems doable … so there is that competitive thing going on in my head. Also … I really really really like figuring things out and proving people wrong. But on the other hand … number one priority for me is wife having fun, playing with her twice a week in open play is a lot of fun. So maybe I ignore that personal max skill drive … and be very thankful at this age we have the health and ability to play and enjoy the game at an enjoyable level. I also really do guess based on observation … pickleball can’t be necessarily more fun by advancing to the kitchen chess match … something to be said for intermediate crazy.
Regardless … we are now planning on including one drill session a week … and adding more if we enjoy it. We also like to play singles with each other … because we get to hit strokes … but will bench that for now. The first drill I want us to do is both stand at kitchen … and volley straight at each other with ping pong punch backhands. We both need to improve this volley the most … it’s the most foreign to us as tennis players. Reacting and reaching to sides, anything high … even bending hitting low balls seems to come more naturally from years on tennis court. But not that ping pong punch backhand … that is a strange puppy we will learn … at least that is the plan. She is/was a 2hbh tennis player … so harder for her.
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ByeByePoly
G.O.A.T.
I have no idea how much time you have spent in ttw tennis tips forum … so just ignore this if already all over it.
- generally when talking about “windshield wiper fh” one is actually talking about ATP forehand, windshield wiper follow through just a result of arm roll with hand/wrist extension. About a million words on ATP FH in ttw tennis tips section … search at your own mental risk
- ATP fh came about because of the pace of pro tennis … a way to reduce size of backswing. Fed’s fh adapts to modern pace and heavy topspin better than a McEnroe. There is nothing about baseline pickleball that is forcing that ATP fh. Ironically I see the arm roll/hand extension elements in some of the pro low speed ups below the net. Watch Ben John hit one starting with paddle down … and then arm rolls which brings the hand and paddle around and up creating topspin.
- racquet path squarely through ball in tennis referred to as extension. In reality … at least on tennis stroke (can’t speak to ping pong bh pb volley) the racquet is always coming around. But if we swing in such a way we “feel like” you are reaching for the target … the thought is a few inches before contact, and a few inches after … perhaps racquet stays more square through moment of contact (ball on strings only milliseconds). I can vouch for it improving my tennis 2hbh … whenever I felt like left arm/hand reached for target I hit more cleanly.
- racquet face at contact … square vs closed for topspin. I was a square racquet face tennis player … so racquet face vertical from ground and topspin came from arm/racquet low to high swing path. You can also drop racquet below hand which adds to swing path to contact. Modern game … many add to topspin beyond arm swing path by closing racquet face “some” at contact … think Nadal. Also … closed rf at pro level also helps dealing with opponents heavy topspin jumping up. Unless proven otherwise (video/pics) I am going to assume pb players don’t close rf for baseline topspin … probably not clearing the net. We obviously do open rf for slice … I do all the time … even on volleys.
So… I think pb baseline topspin shots (even topspin lobs) happen with rf vertical to ground and a low to high swing path. Hoisted/lobbed balls without topspin … rf stays square to swing path line.
ByeByePoly
G.O.A.T.
btw … it would not surprise me if we all opened our rf a little on baseline strokes because plastic ball … but concept of pretty square probably holds up.
optic yellow
Legend
I have noticed this especially for Eastern FH.I have no idea how much time you have spent in ttw tennis tips forum … so just ignore this if already all over it.
- generally when talking about “windshield wiper fh” one is actually talking about ATP forehand, windshield wiper follow through just a result of arm roll with hand/wrist extension. About a million words on ATP FH in ttw tennis tips section … search at your own mental risk
- ATP fh came about because of the pace of pro tennis … a way to reduce size of backswing. Fed’s fh adapts to modern pace and heavy topspin better than a McEnroe. There is nothing about baseline pickleball that is forcing that ATP fh. Ironically I see the arm roll/hand extension elements in some of the pro low speed ups below the net. Watch Ben John hit one starting with paddle down … and then arm rolls which brings the hand and paddle around and up creating topspin.
- racquet path squarely through ball in tennis referred to as extension. In reality … at least on tennis stroke (can’t speak to ping pong bh pb volley) the racquet is always coming around. But if we swing in such a way we “feel like” you are reaching for the target … the thought is a few inches before contact, and a few inches after … perhaps racquet stays more square through moment of contact (ball on strings only milliseconds). I can vouch for it improving my tennis 2hbh … whenever I felt like left arm/hand reached for target I hit more cleanly.
optic yellow
Legend
Someone else in another thread (I want to say nyta2 or s&v) said that pb singles is meme what are your thoughts on that?
ByeByePoly
G.O.A.T.
??? didn’t understand question
optic yellow
Legend
<x> is meme = is a joke not be taken seriously
ByeByePoly
G.O.A.T.
Tennis singles must be taken seriously … nothing else … it’s a racquet/paddle law.
optic yellow
Legend
Basically they were saying no one should play PB singles so I wanted your thoughts on PB singles vs. PB doubles from the perspective of playing enjoyability.
ByeByePoly
G.O.A.T.
Well … I have only played a few games of pb singles but enough to know pb singles is the only flavor where you will be able to hit your tennis-adjacent strokes. I am a tennis singles player at heart and I could see I would also prefer pb singles. You don’t see much rec singles being played because most courts will be filled with open play doubles are booked doubles courts. Also singles pb is a serious workout … so most of the rec age demographic just plays doubles. I had started to play a few games of singles when there was an empty court open up in open play … but now with mild jumper’s knee (right knee TE) probably not wise for now. If I get past knee issue … will probably go back to playing an occasional singles game. I liked it … baseline strokes, passing shots, work the point, chip and charge volleys from kitchen line. Rec pb typically won’t be as kitchen centric as the Ben Johns match I posted … you can have more baseline shots.
optic yellow
Legend
This sounds legit I wonder why they pooh poohed it.
D
Deleted member 775108
Guest
I will say it again. Legit PB singles is very very intense and hard on the body unless the player is ultra flexible because of the heavily compromised lower than comfortable position. I wouldnt recommend it to aging tennis players.
Doubles on the other hand is much much easier on the body. But have to be careful about the nipples to the net overheads, can do a number on shoulders due to the mechanical weak position we are generating power from.
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ByeByePoly
G.O.A.T.
so you are saying that nipples to the net overhead flyswatter slap shot is dangerous
there is more valid options to use wrist in pb … would not be surprised if that could cause an overuse injury in some
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ByeByePoly
G.O.A.T.
I did not listen to your advice … not very crowded today and court was open so played 23 year old two games of singles. Very fast 23 year old (and I know fast from my 20s) and good pb skills (just guessing would say 4.5). I lost something like 11-5,11-5 … breathing very hard by the end. His comment was … you are a better singles player than doubles. Yep … think I heard that before
in tennis. I could see with a little more singles games under my belt … and a lot more oxygen … I could actually play a decent level of singles. Two immediate things that would help 1) pretty much blow off 1hbh slice from baseline … my goto in tennis was not helping in pb … just drive 1h or 2h from backhand … and 2hbh looks pretty decent even cross court with ts 2) play enough pb singles to get in good enough pb shape for a couple games of singles … I setup many points and had the volley put away right there … and wasn’t precise enough (either reps or too much huffing and puffing). I don’t think it would take much singles to make quick progress on conditioning because already have weight at good place. I don’t have problems with the low ball … but just have to be smart and let some opponent dtl go. Always a huge advantage to faster singles opponent in tennis … I think it’s more in pb singles (laterally at least). I invite all “ain’t no exercise in pickleball” ttw brothers to a friendly game of singles.Looks like Legacy Pro won’t get here until March (got an email … manufacturer is backed up and they are correcting a resin/gluing thing based on quality control ??? ) … I suspect it would help my singles. I’m hitting baseline shots to fairly tight targets … xspak paddle control seems really good (based on my vast 3 months experience) … but found myself really wanting more pop on my fh dtl. That’s the thing in tennis and pball singles … can’t hide that baseline bh like you can in pball doubles.
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D
Deleted member 775108
Guest
ByeByePoly
G.O.A.T.
tennytive
Hall of Fame
Check out Paris Todd in one of the best points of PB 2022 videos. She basically plays singles tennis on a PB court complete with 2hbh painting the lines.
ByeByePoly
G.O.A.T.
I will check her singles out (saw her play some doubles) … I am finding I get some tennis-adjacent fix with singles … doubles not so much.
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