How long did it take you to become a 5.0 player?

[Strategy]

I am currently 19 years old (male) and have been playing tennis casually for 3 years. However, this last summer I took it more seriously and have been taking private lessons. I am a 3.5 player now.

At my age, I believe there is still hope I can reach level 5.0. I feel like I've stalled and am having difficulty getting better. I love this game and am willing to spend money and time to get to that 5.0 level though. My question is: how long did it take you? Is the jump as massive as I think it will be?

Also, at my 3.5 level, is it still worthwhile to pay for private lessons? Or should I just go with finding a hitting partner? (which will be free, but more difficult to find).


Thanks TT!

 

[CoachingMastery]

I am currently 19 years old (male) and have been playing tennis casually for 3 years. However, this last summer I took it more seriously and have been taking private lessons. I am a 3.5 player now.

At my age, I believe there is still hope I can reach level 5.0. I feel like I've stalled and am having difficulty getting better. I love this game and am willing to spend money and time to get to that 5.0 level though. My question is: how long did it take you? Is the jump as massive as I think it will be?

Also, at my 3.5 level, is it still worthwhile to pay for private lessons? Or should I just go with finding a hitting partner? (which will be free, but more difficult to find).


Thanks TT!

The issue of "time" is not the real question. If you are learning an "advanced foundation", that is, patterns that don't have to change over time and are associated with 5.0 level play, you will eventually reach the 5.0 level if your desire, athleticism, drive and dedication will let you practice and play within these parameters of this foundation.

Having coached well over 3000 players, almost all of my junior players reached 5.0 levels by the time they reached 18. Many exceptions, of course. But, if you learn using inferior methods that MUST change for improvement to take place, you may NEVER reach 5.0! (Or even 4.0 or 4.5 either!)

The key is to study advanced play. Emulate advanced strokes and footwork patterns. Find a QUALIFIED pro that will teach you within this context. And, then go out and work HARD.

I just chatted with a woman friend of mine who didn't start playing until she was in her late 30's...and she just moved up to the 5.0's in southern Cal. (A tough 5.0 division!)

You CAN do it. Just make sure you do it right!

 

[LeeD]

And the ascension would be easier if you had some superior part of your game, that would lead you into higher levels. A big lefty serve. A super quick movement. An ability to forget lost points within an instant. Better than normal hand/eye coordination and quickness. You need something better than the rest.

 

[NLBwell]

Both above are right. If you don't have all the proper fundamentals, you won't get there no matter how much you practice. Also, a quite superior area of your game can get you there even if you have weaker areas. If you have the proper fundamentals and really work hard, at 19 you can probably get there in 2 or 3 years. If you aren't seeing progression, go back to your fundamentals.

 

[Ballinbob]

i'll tell you when I get there

 

[Fuji]

Eh, I'm slowly working there. I've been playing for I think 5 years now, and I'm starting to compete at a solid 4.5, but I've only been playing more "seriously" for 3 years and a bit. If you can get a good base on your strokes, and work on your movement, I don't see why you couldn't get there in a few years.

I'm 17 now, and I want to be competing at 5.0 by the time I'm 20. Just a small goal of mine!

The biggest thing is once you get to a level, where your strokes become obsolete, (4.0 for me), when you basically have to go back to the drawing board and rework everything. I lost a solid year of playing to this rebuilding process, where I didn't win consistently until the end of my season. It pays off in the end, but if you can skip this time by just improving with proper strokes from the start, it makes it a lot easier!

-Fuji

 

[rkelley]

I really like Dave Smith's philosophy on this. Learn proper technique (i.e. an advanced foundation), and then practice it. You can get there.

Since I've been in San Diego I've seen a lot of coaches working with juniors. Many of them were former tour players. Some can really coach. They know the modern techniques and have techniques and tips to help their students learn those techniques. Some know what to do but lack a lot of skill in communicating it: they either don't say much or they yell the same instruction over and over again. A couple seem reasonably clueless.

All that said, I'm not a 5.0 myself, though I've hit with some and can (usually) hang with them. Working on it.

 

[kiteboard]

There are lots of guys playing 5.0 tourneys who are retrievers/hackers who win with consistency and speed and mental "get it back the last time" tudes. They may win some matches, but they don't win the final. The guy who wins the finals has all that and more: weapons. An accurate serve. A big return. A big fh. Etc. Lots of diff. levels and styles claim 5.0 wins. To rise above the rest necessitates a big game and consistent defense. Same with any level of competition above 4.5. Then there are the guys who play down to get the trophies. After 41 yrs and 10,000 hrs. on the court, I am only about a 4.5, due to my lack of mobility and a good serve. At least I know what to work on! Learn to move. Lose wt. Learn to serve.

 

[ATP100]

I am currently 19 years old (male) and have been playing tennis casually for 3 years. However, this last summer I took it more seriously and have been taking private lessons. I am a 3.5 player now.

At my age, I believe there is still hope I can reach level 5.0. I feel like I've stalled and am having difficulty getting better. I love this game and am willing to spend money and time to get to that 5.0 level though. My question is: how long did it take you? Is the jump as massive as I think it will be?

Also, at my 3.5 level, is it still worthwhile to pay for private lessons? Or should I just go with finding a hitting partner? (which will be free, but more difficult to find).


Thanks TT!

It will be more mentally challenging than physical. You will literally have to start over. But you are young enough to do it. (barely)

 

[rkelley]

It will be more mentally challenging than physical. You will literally have to start over. But you are young enough to do it. (barely)

Why does the OP have to start over?

 

[maggmaster]

So it is the opinion of most on the boards that you must have played as a junior to reach 5.0?

 

[Fuji]

So it is the opinion of most on the boards that you must have played as a junior to reach 5.0?

Not at all I find! I know a fellow who didn't even touch tennis until early 20's, and by the time he was in his mid 30's, he was doing fairly well at Open tournaments!

-Fuji

 

[CoachingMastery]

So it is the opinion of most on the boards that you must have played as a junior to reach 5.0?

Not at all. As I mentioned, a woman I trained twenty years ago in her mid 30's moved up to the 5.0's this year. She never played tennis before her 30's.

The problem many people have, however, is that they start competing with flawed strokes. (For whatever reason--they never learned properly, they were taught wrong, they didn't think to learn proper technique early on, etc). When players compete using inferior methods, they almost always revert back to old ways because those are the MOST FAMILIAR. (Which might be why ATP suggested they "need to start over.")

Most adults must "empty the glass" (to use an Eastern Wisdom analogy!), because they will go to what is most familiar and comfortable to try and win.

This is why juniors who are taught within a good lesson program usually end up reaching fairly high NTRP levels...because they didn't necessarily start out with inferior techniques. (Although, I've seen a fair share of those who are taught inferior methods over the years!)

Adults are fully capable of learning (or relearning) using an Advanced Foundation, (The cornerstone of learning I discuss in my books). However, they need to be fully aware of the common failures that occur due to the problem I mentioned earlier. They also need to move through some specific training methods that allow them to reprogram their common stroke habits.

 

[rkelley]

Not at all. As I mentioned, a woman I trained twenty years ago in her mid 30's moved up to the 5.0's this year. She never played tennis before her 30's.

The problem many people have, however, is that they start competing with flawed strokes. (For whatever reason--they never learned properly, they were taught wrong, they didn't think to learn proper technique early on, etc). When players compete using inferior methods, they almost always revert back to old ways because those are the MOST FAMILIAR. (Which might be why ATP suggested they "need to start over.")

Most adults must "empty the glass" (to use an Eastern Wisdom analogy!), because they will go to what is most familiar and comfortable to try and win.

This is why juniors who are taught within a good lesson program usually end up reaching fairly high NTRP levels...because they didn't necessarily start out with inferior techniques. (Although, I've seen a fair share of those who are taught inferior methods over the years!)

Adults are fully capable of learning (or relearning) using an Advanced Foundation, (The cornerstone of learning I discuss in my books). However, they need to be fully aware of the common failures that occur due to the problem I mentioned earlier. They also need to move through some specific training methods that allow them to reprogram their common stroke habits.

Dave (CoachingMastery), would you agree that another important aspect for anyone trying learn or relearn an advanced foundation is to not get into game/match situations too soon? Learning takes some amount of time. It seems like you need to be willing to hit some balls out, for a while, and just focus on the form first. Then once you have that good, repeatable form the consistency should follow (as you said in another post on power and consistency). If you're trying fix a messed-up backhand by next Tuesday's round-robin event at your club you're not giving yourself enough time and you're just going to go back to the flawed stroke that's been getting the ball in.

 

[CoachingMastery]

Dave (CoachingMastery), would you agree that another important aspect for anyone trying learn or relearn an advanced foundation is to not get into game/match situations too soon? Learning takes some amount of time. It seems like you need to be willing to hit some balls out, for a while, and just focus on the form first. Then once you have that good, repeatable form the consistency should follow (as you said in another post on power and consistency). If you're trying fix a messed-up backhand by next Tuesday's round-robin event at your club you're not giving yourself enough time and you're just going to go back to the flawed stroke that's been getting the ball in.

Great question and certainly one that needs to be understood by anyone who wants to get really good!

There are studies that show players who focus on technique first, and deliberately, without competitive distractions, become far better in the long run. That said, here is my take:

If a player can deliberately work on employing the skilled form as soon as the player has developed it, within competition WITHOUT reverting to some lower level or more rudementary pattern (because of the fear of losing), then competition can increase the acquisition of such new or more advanced strokes.

But, this is the problem because wanting to win at the moment is so strong that players will indeed do ANYTHING they can to win. If a match is really important, than obviously, what ever it takes to win is equally important. However, if it means to sacrifice the intentional use of strokes, grips, strategies, etc., that are associated with advanced play, then such a position of sacrifice will inevitably slow the mastery of such advanced shot making skills and abilities.

Ideally, players need to establish clear control of desired stroke patterns before they enter competition. And when they eventually, do, they need to evaluate their play within these advanced foundation elements. Being human, players will enevitably fall back on some element of undesirable strokes due to many reasons: missing several shots, pressure of a particular point or ralley, forced errors by opponent's shots, etc. Players need to learn from these mistakes and work to avoid them in future competitive opportunities.

It is interesting how the Russians, the Chinese, and so many other countries are developing players within this "mastery first--then competition" whereas the US and other countries stress a "play first--learn technique later" mentality.

There obviously is much more to it than what we can address here. I've included this concept heavily in both my books, (within the Advanced Foundation Sections).

 

[sureshs]

10,000 hours

 

[guitarplayer]

Takes about 12 seconds to type, "I'm a 5.0".

Everyone on tw thinks they are a 5.0.......or better!

 

[NLBwell]

^ using correct fundamentals

 

[LeeD]

I think less than one in 500 tennis players have a chance to make it to 5.0 level, and that's with at least 5 years of full time playing with coaching and good competition.
"Full time" meaning pushing the limits of the body and mind without distractions.

 

[Deleted member 120290]

I became a 5.0 only a MONTH after I got married...of course BEFORE I got married I was a 6.5 :mrgreen:

 

[West Coast Ace]

Not at all I find!

+1.

I am currently...
At my age, I believe there is still hope I can reach level 5.0.

NMI. Need more information. Any athletic genes? Did you previously excel at any other sports? This will be harsh - but some people will never make it to 5.0, even if they spend $100k on lessons, build a court in their backyard, etc. The tennis strokes aren't incredibly difficult - but the ball is moving and bouncing with spin - so hand/eye coordination is huge. Some people have it; many don't.

I became a 5.0 only a MONTH after I got married...of course BEFORE I got married I was a 6.5 :mrgreen:

Ouch! Beginning of a woman's Dream; end of a man's...

 

[NLBwell]

Re: TenFanLA's post, I became a 5.0 after 8 years - an 8 year layoff from competitive tennis with marriage, kids, houses, wife's school, my work and school, etc.

 

[Strategy]

+1.

NMI. Need more information. Any athletic genes? Did you previously excel at any other sports? This will be harsh - but some people will never make it to 5.0, even if they spend $100k on lessons, build a court in their backyard, etc. The tennis strokes aren't incredibly difficult - but the ball is moving and bouncing with spin - so hand/eye coordination is huge. Some people have it; many don't.

Ouch! Beginning of a woman's Dream; end of a man's...

Well, not much athletic genes, much more on the intelligence/academic side which still helps I'd say.

Tennis is my main sport. Before tennis, I kept in shape by running (excessively) and weight lifting.

I don't think the key is private lessons for me anymore. I've had enough to know all the proper strokes (or so I think). I just need to rally and play with other people. After doing that for a bit, I guess I can go back to a different coach for a second opinion on proper strokes, footwork, etc.

I just like to think I can still do it, even with all the distractions I'm facing (I am a fulltime student).

 

[TennisCJC]

Well, not much athletic genes, much more on the intelligence/academic side which still helps I'd say.

Tennis is my main sport. Before tennis, I kept in shape by running (excessively) and weight lifting.

I don't think the key is private lessons for me anymore. I've had enough to know all the proper strokes (or so I think). I just need to rally and play with other people. After doing that for a bit, I guess I can go back to a different coach for a second opinion on proper strokes, footwork, etc.

I just like to think I can still do it, even with all the distractions I'm facing (I am a fulltime student).

My background: play American sports as a child: baseball, football, and made all-star baseball teams. Took up tennis at around age 20 - am now 54 years old. Played on 4.5 city championship team and won all matchs in city playoffs - 3 playoff level rounds. Played a few seasons at 5.0 and won about 50% of time. Now play in 4.5 singles leauge on web and play in non-usta doubles leauge around the same level.

My suggestions:
1. If you can afford it, try to keep up the lessons. As others said above, a good foundation is critical. Semi-private lessons with a friend - maybe 4-6 lessons in the spring, and occasional adult camps would be great. I attended a couple of adult camps when younger with 3 hour a day format for a week and these really help. Lifts your game for a few months.
2. Read books and watch videos. Some may say stick only with what your coach says, but I think you can learn a lot from reading and watching video. Realize some methods you read may even have contradicting views and you have to learn to sift through the different views.
3. Play at the appropriate level. Playing good players helps. So, once you start winning 75% of your matches, you may want to try playing up to the next level. When you are winning about 50% of your matches, you are playing at the right level. Try to practice with higher ranked players if possible.
4. Play and practice at least 4 times a week for next few years until you get to your highest level. Also, continue to work on fitness - movement is critical to good tennis. I know as it is harder and harder to move well with each passing year at my age.
5. Join internet singles leauges, tournaments and doubles leauges, and teams in your area. Team play and leauge play is the best way to meet friends to practice with and it exposes you to a variety of different players.

But, even if you do not make 5.0 level, still enjoy the game. Tennis is a great game, and 2 evenly matched players at any level can have an entertaining and fun match. I have watched 3.5 level matches that were really fun when the matches are close. Also, 4.0 and 4.5 are pretty damn tough levels. If you can get to this level, you are proably ahead of 80% of the tennis playing population. I have played teaching pros and instructors at 4.0 and 4.5. One of the 4.5 players was an older pro who had played the satiellite circuit when he was younger - he was in his late 50s/early 60s now. So, you will play good players at these levels.

I SWAG for how long to become 5.0 - my experience would be at least 5-10 years. If gifted, maybe less.

 

[Caesar]

This will be harsh - but some people will never make it to 5.0, even if they spend $100k on lessons, build a court in their backyard, etc. The tennis strokes aren't incredibly difficult - but the ball is moving and bouncing with spin - so hand/eye coordination is huge. Some people have it; many don't.

I really don't think that's true. As long as someone starts early enough and is trained correctly, I don't think 5.0 is physically unachievable for anyone. I think the bigger wall is once you get into the 5s - where everyone is basically a complete player from a fundamentals perspective, and talent starts to shine through.

I haven't met any 4.5s who have learned early enough, trained hard enough, and had the appropriate instruction yet still hit a wall and been unable to make it to 5.0.

On the other hand there are tons of 5.5s that have done everything right but just can't crack the 6.0.

 

[salsainglesa]

My opinion based on this description of a 5.0 player I found, is you need to commit during at least five years to training 5 times a week, for a couple of hours a session and enter competitive play with the right idea of your current level.

That is, the same tactics and strokes don't apply to higher levels, and you must use the solid foundation you learned at the beginning to learn new swing patters and make your movement more efficient as you move up the ranks

There are several walls to pass, and that is the 3.0 to 4.0

and 5.5 to 6.0... but those are different ball parks...

I guess 6.0 to 7 is about perseverance and training,good coaching, tactics and having a weapon, be it physical or mental.


from 4.5 to 5 is a matter of time and perseverance.


I like this descriptions a lot more... http://www.itftennis.com/itn/Ratings/

 

[Caesar]

Is there a conversion chart for ITF to NTRP?

 

[TonyB]

But, this is the problem because wanting to win at the moment is so strong that players will indeed do ANYTHING they can to win. If a match is really important, than obviously, what ever it takes to win is equally important. However, if it means to sacrifice the intentional use of strokes, grips, strategies, etc., that are associated with advanced play, then such a position of sacrifice will inevitably slow the mastery of such advanced shot making skills and abilities.

I re-started playing tennis 4 years ago at age 37 (after leaving the game for 20 years) as a 3.0 with horrible strokes and absolutely NO backhand. I actually lost 6-0, 6-1 to a 3.5 level player when I came back to the game. But after focusing on proper technique and learning a one-handed backhand by watching pros on video (without any lessons or coaching), now I'm a 4.5 with very solid technique on all strokes. I only play 2-3 times per week at most, unfortunately, so my progression is slow and my consistency isn't the greatest.

However, even though I enjoy practicing, I'm still not "match tough" yet. I can tell you that it is EXTREMELY frustrating to lose to opponents (at the same 4.5 level) who have flawed strokes and huge weaknesses in their game. I continue to practice my good form, footwork, and technique while I play matches, but obviously I am not quite practiced enough with my strokes and movement to beat them, because they are more familiar with their own strokes and they're fairly effective at this level despite the flaws in their technique and overall game. I can tell that they will NEVER make it higher than 4.5 because of their flaws.

I keep telling myself that I'll eventually rise above their level if I keep practicing "proper" tennis technique and shotmaking, but without sufficient practice time (i.e., no more than 2-3 times per week) I suspect I'll never get there. Instead, I'm afraid I'll just be "that guy who hits great shots most of the time but can't win a match."

 

[West Coast Ace]

I really don't think that's true....I haven't met any 4.5s who have learned early enough, trained hard enough, and had the appropriate instruction yet still hit a wall and been unable to make it to 5.0.

I never said that. I said 'some people will never make it to 5.0'. The OP said he's a 3.5. That might be it for him, based on his athletic genes. And most people who ever play the game. What % of ALL people who take up tennis do you think make it to 5.0? Again, in the modern game, the ball is moving really fast, with a lot of spin. Most people aren't talented enough to a) anticipate and move to the ball with their body under control; b) then make a good swing at the ball to counteract the speed and spin.

 

[Caesar]

It's not a matter of talent, it's a matter of training. 5.0 isn't some hallowed level. You don't need good athletic genes to get there.

People don't make it to 5.0 because they start much too late, have been trained badly for too long, or don't put in the requisite effort. The latter is most common. Once you get to 3.5 or 4.0 you're at the point where you have decent strokes, can do pretty much everything on a tennis court, and can generally play the game to a high enough standard to enjoy it fully at a recreational level. Improving is getting harder, requires more time to be invested, and unless you're a bit of a tennis fanatic the payoff of getting to 5.0 (or even 4.5, arguably) isn't that high.

 

[Deleted member 120290]

It's not a matter of talent, it's a matter of training. 5.0 isn't some hallowed level. You don't need good athletic genes to get there.

People don't make it to 5.0 because they start much too late, have been trained badly for too long, or don't put in the requisite effort. The latter is most common. Once you get to 3.5 or 4.0 you're at the point where you have decent strokes, can do pretty much everything on a tennis court, and can generally play the game to a high enough standard to enjoy it fully at a recreational level. Improving is getting harder, requires more time to be invested, and unless you're a bit of a tennis fanatic the payoff of getting to 5.0 (or even 4.5, arguably) isn't that high.

Maybe you are supremely gifted. I think of myself as being pretty athletic but to jump from a 4.5 to a legit 5.0 is pretty dang tough, esp. if you are above 30. I kind of see it as shooting in the 70's in golf consistently. A few years ago I was fortunate enough to not have to work and still make enough from my business to travel and play golf practically everyday. It took me a year of playing golf EVERYDAY (1-2 rounds) to go from shooting low 80's to mid 70's average (my lowest rounds were -2). I think it would take the same commitment from me to break thru to 5.0 at age 40.

 

[Caesar]

I'm not saying it's not ridiculously tough. I'm just saying it's pretty achievable.

As you note, the main obstacle for a lot of people is that the payoff usually isn't worth the effort. There is no way I'd waste the time trying to go from 4.5 to 5.0 if I was older, had a family, etc.

 

[UWBTennis]

You still got plenty of time, but yeah, good coaching is the most important. I have been playing for four years (on a high school team but no private coaching, self taught through all the great resources out there, like FYB, Essential Tennis, Tennisone, and LockandRoll) and finally got to the low 4.0 level, but I have found that I'm also stagnating. I think once you reach the 4.0-4.5 level it is really hard to improve without help. Because you need coaches to not only help you improve your stroke but help you with your strategy (changing game plans is a requirement for the 4.5, and reading your opponent's shots by toss or set up is important at the 5.0) and other aspect of the game. Unfortunately I'm a poor unemployed college freshman who is trying to find a way to pay college bills before they get out of control so that tennis coach may have to wait another 8 years .

 

[gregor.b]

A guy I know recently said to me,'You know,we've been watching you with your technique for about the last 9 or 10 years and wondering when you would start beating us.We always thought it could happen,but didn't expect you to take the beatdowns so philosophically.We just saw you go back and hit the ball properly time and time again and keep missing.Now,you don't miss.'
That statement came from an open level tournament player who regularly made third round and quarter finals a few years ago.I played him for the second time and beat him for the first time this season.In answer to your question OP,start with correct technique and you will be fine.It will take thousands of hours and tens of thousands of repetitions but yes,it can be done.