How many good servers have you seen?

[tennis3]

Outside of Professional, College, or high level Juniors, how many good servers have you seen or played against? Of course, good is subjective, so what a "good" server is, will be up to you.

I haven't seen very many (or any actually) myself on the rec courts. The few I have seen are former college players and high level juniors. But I don't think I've ever seen a "self taught" player or even someone that started later in life that took lessons with what I'd consider a good serve.

I just thought of this as I was watching two guys play on the court next to me in the park today. Great looking players. Both had good serves. One of the guys had an outstanding serve. Probably the best I've ever seen on a "park court". Turns out, both of these guys were former D1 players.

How about you guys? Ever seen any true rec tennis players with good serves?

 

[austintennis2005]

Agree
I’ve been 4.5 for many years and there’s only been a few instances where a player was truly dominating on serve. One player could kick the ball sooo wide on the ad side it literally bounced at a right angle and to try and cover it by standing over there he would then hit bombs up the T

 

[Curious]

How can you be a 5.0 and up player and not have a good serve?
Do you say the same thing for forehand, backhand and so on?

 

[Slicehand]

A good serve is subjective of the level, a good serve for what? A good serve in a 4.5 league is probably not a good serve in a higher league, and a serve that dominates the rec circuit might be a mediocre serve in college tennis, so yeah i have seen good serves, they were good against me, against a better player, probably not so much, so not anymore a good serve

 

[Funbun]

me

I took the opportunity during covid to practice tennis a lot more and started serving almost 1-2 hours every day, weather permitting, for about two years. I learned a lot from Youtube (Intuitive Tennis mostly) and recording myself to see what I could do better, comparing it to pro footage. Used to literally double fault my matches away back in high school (I was really really bad) so I made it my focus to improve my weakest stroke.

I obviously still have a lot to work on with improving placement and upping percentages, but now, I actually have confidence when serving under pressure and having a safe second serve that can't really be attacked easily.

 

[tennis3]

A good serve is subjective of the level, a good serve for what? A good serve in a 4.5 league is probably not a good serve in a higher league, and a serve that dominates the rec circuit might be a mediocre serve in college tennis, so yeah i have seen good serves, they were good against me, against a better player, probably not so much, so not anymore a good serve

I’ll say a good serve is one that you see and think “that guy has a good serve”. The D1 guys I was watching in the neighboring court is one of the few times I’ve ever seen guys on a rec court and thought that.

I’ve seen plenty of guys whose ground strokes gave me that thought. Plenty of really good volleyers. Never see a good server.

 

[kevin qmto]

Probably 2 or 3 in my life.

 

[travlerajm]

How can you be a 5.0 and up player and not have a good serve?
Do you say the same thing for forehand, backhand and so on?

There are plenty of 5.0 players with bad serves.

I played 5.0 usta singles league with a crap forehand only my mom could love.

I’ve also played a 5.0 league match against a guy with horrendous backhand. He was lefty and would stand almost in the alley and dare you to attack the open court.

 

[Curious]

There are plenty of 5.0 players with bad serves.

I played 5.0 usta singles league with a crap forehand only my mom could love.

I’ve also played a 5.0 league match against a guy with horrendous backhand. He was lefty and would stand almost in the alley and dare you to attack the open court.

Well, I think it’s a silly discussion. Serve is more complicated as a motion of course but there are different levels of quality of every stroke at every level.
Forget my 5.0 post above. This was spot on.

A good serve is subjective of the level, a good serve for what? A good serve in a 4.5 league is probably not a good serve in a higher league, and a serve that dominates the rec circuit might be a mediocre serve in college tennis, so yeah i have seen good serves, they were good against me, against a better player, probably not so much, so not anymore a good serve

 

[travlerajm]

Well, I think it’s a silly discussion. Serve is more complicated as a motion of course but there are different levels of quality of every stroke at every level.
Forget my 5.0 post above. This was spot on.

No. My forehand was bad for any level.

 

[Curious]

No. My forehand was bad for any level.

And there are exceptions like you, too.

 

[Bambooman]

I have a great mostly self taught serve and I started REALLY late in life.

 

[StringSnapper]

I have a great mostly self taught serve and I started REALLY late in life.

Did you play baseball or a throwing sport before tennis?

 

[Chas Tennis]

Outside of Professional, College, or high level Juniors, how many good servers have you seen or played against? Of course, good is subjective, so what a "good" server is, will be up to you.

I haven't seen very many (or any actually) myself on the rec courts. The few I have seen are former college players and high level juniors. But I don't think I've ever seen a "self taught" player or even someone that started later in life that took lessons with what I'd consider a good serve.

I just thought of this as I was watching two guys play on the court next to me in the park today. Great looking players. Both had good serves. One of the guys had an outstanding serve. Probably the best I've ever seen on a "park court". Turns out, both of these guys were former D1 players.

How about you guys? Ever seen any true rec tennis players with good serves?

In the last 12 years, very few confirmed high level serves that use Internal Shoulder Rotation (ISR). I can see by eye likely Waiter's Tray on the majority of serves using the 'racket face to the sky' checkpoint. That is easy to see by eye, especially if you are returning serve. I say '>60% of active tennis players have a WT' - it's more than 60%. But then there were a minority of serves - not WT - where I could not identify the technique because I had no high speed video of the server.

I took high speed videos of my tennis friends about 10 years ago. Two or three had what appeared to be high level serves, possible ISR. But I did not use best technique to analyze ISR - a close up of the elbow shadows displaying ISR in clear high speed video. We played USTA 3.5 and moved up to 4.0.

Once, when playing club travel league, I ran into a very strong server. Maybe the club pro was playing, as our league allowed that. For many returns, I eventually wound up guessing forehand or backhand and just going early to cover that side. That was the only time I ever saw such strong serves while playing since the 1970s.

I don't believe that it is possible to hit a kick serve with a WT serve technique. The WT does not provide an effective way to have the racket face rising as it contacts the ball.

 

[socallefty]

The pros average about 0.5 aces per service game and if they average about 9-10 service games per Bestof3 set match, the average is about 4-5 aces per match per player. I feel like at 4.5/5.0 levels, singles players average 2-3 aces per match, but I’ve played players who will average 5-6 aces per match playing against other players at their level. In addition, they hit a lot of service winners also.

I would say that all of them are ex-college or ex-top junior ranked players who went through extensive coaching as kids and are still below 40-45 years old. Best server I’ve played is an ex-ATP guy from the eighties who by 2010 when I played him was overweight and a high 4.5 S/Vr - he served about 7-8 aces per match in the Flex league that he won and had the whole package of hard flat, hard slice and high-bouncing kick that moved sideways a lot.

I don’t think I‘ve met a player who learned tennis as an adult with a great serve for the high 4.5/5.0 level - in fact, I probably have met less than five players with that profile. Most adult players at that level have declined to that level from an even higher level they had as kids or at college age - it is rare for players to learn tennis as adults and ascend to that level.

 

[Slicehand]

I’ll say a good serve is one that you see and think “that guy has a good serve”. The D1 guys I was watching in the neighboring court is one of the few times I’ve ever seen guys on a rec court and thought that.

I’ve seen plenty of guys whose ground strokes gave me that thought. Plenty of really good volleyers. Never see a good server.

but that is not a precise evaluation of a serve, you probably saw that they have sound mechanics and you automatically think "a good serve" but maybe it isnt a good serve for people on their level, you would have to check consistency during a match, pace, hability to hit the spots, hability to hit the different spins, how it works under presure, to watch a court next to you and see two player that have good technique to your eyes, probably because they have been tought the game from younger, is not a good evaluation of their habilities, its mostly aesthetics, you can tell they have good technique compared to maybe your typical weekend warrior that started playing at 40, but thats probably all you can grasp from watching some points at a court next to you, i played many tournaments where i saw guys with good serves, and im talking sub college level of course, to me a good serve is a guy who has a consistent powerful first serve and on top of that a good second kicker, and that he can target my backhand in the important points, you know whats the problem? that in a higher level EVERYBODY is able to do that

 

[Xen]

On some level, rec tennis is about having fun, and most people think rallying is more fun than both players getting a bunch of service winners/aces. If one player has a much better serve than their opponent's RoS, that just becomes the entire level difference. I've actually been discouraged from practicing my serve, saying that if my serve got too good, less people would want to play with me.

Also, good serves don't make it into a highlight reel. No one wants to see every service winner or serve+1. Here's highlights from the match I played today. We're both self-rated 3.5s, aka the epitome of rec tennis. I'd say we both have "good" serves for our level, but that also means that I had to cut out 2 hours of short points.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

There are plenty of 5.0 players with bad serves.

I played 5.0 usta singles league with a crap forehand only my mom could love.

I’ve also played a 5.0 league match against a guy with horrendous backhand. He was lefty and would stand almost in the alley and dare you to attack the open court.

I’ve played with a number of 5.0 players who’ve had flawed serve mechanics but still fairly decent & effective serve games.

OTOH, their groundies were often a bit better than mine. But my strong lefty serve & volleying skills allowed me to be competitive with these players. Those skills also allowed me to be competitive with 5.0/5.5 doubles players.

Didn’t really come across 5.0 players with exceptionally weak serves. But if their serve mechanics were flawed, their serves were usually not quite as strong as their g’strokes

 

[travlerajm]

I’ve played with a number of 5.0 players who’ve had flawed serve mechanics but still fairly decent & effective serve games.

OTOH, their groundies were often a bit better than mine. But my strong lefty serve & volleying skills allowed me to be competitive with these players. Those skills also allowed me to be competitive with 5.0/5.5 doubles players.

Didn’t really come across 5.0 players with exceptionally weak serves. But if their serve mechanics were flawed, their serves were usually not quite as strong as their g’strokes

I actually played a guy who had reached Top 550 in the world as a S&V guy with a waiter’s tray pancake flat grandma serve. It was the craziest thing to see this guy charge in behind his weak serve, and if I didn’t get the return beyond his reach, he would McEnroe a world-class knee-high volley into an awkward spot and win the point.

 

[Bambooman]

Did you play baseball or a throwing sport before tennis?

Yes, we used to have potato and apple fights back on the farm.

 

[travlerajm]

Yes, we used to have potato and apple fights back on the farm.

I think that’s how Goran got his serve stroke too.

 

[tennisfan2166]

There are plenty of 5.0 players with bad serves.

I played 5.0 usta singles league with a crap forehand only my mom could love.

I’ve also played a 5.0 league match against a guy with horrendous backhand. He was lefty and would stand almost in the alley and dare you to attack the open court.

Your mom hates your FH.

 

[travlerajm]

Your mom hates your FH.

She loves me in spite of it.

 

[tendency]

On some level, rec tennis is about having fun, and most people think rallying is more fun than both players getting a bunch of service winners/aces. If one player has a much better serve than their opponent's RoS, that just becomes the entire level difference. I've actually been discouraged from practicing my serve, saying that if my serve got too good, less people would want to play with me.

Also, good serves don't make it into a highlight reel. No one wants to see every service winner or serve+1. Here's highlights from the match I played today. We're both self-rated 3.5s, aka the epitome of rec tennis. I'd say we both have "good" serves for our level, but that also means that I had to cut out 2 hours of short points.

What's up w/ this dude always thread hijacking and posting vids of himself? lol

 

[ChaelAZ]

Stats wise for 4.0, maybe only 15% of the players I have faced had enough consistence and placement to force errors or cause any pressure. A large bulk have decent consistency but they don't have much pace and usually aren't hitting any spots.

 

[Dartagnan64]

5 or 6. All were junior players with a fair amount of coaching. Of the next tier, i.e. good servers but not great, most were athletes in throwing sports (baseball or football) or badminton.

That’s out of probably 100 guys I’ve had the pleasure to play against. Most rec serves at the 3.5-4.0 level vary from trash to decent. I stand squarely in the trash bin but have no problem competing thanks to consistency.

 

[Xen]

What's up w/ this dude always thread hijacking and posting vids of himself? lol

Well that wasn't the intent and it's not like it was off topic, but I'll stop.

 

[tennis3]

Best server I’ve played is an ex-ATP guy from the eighties who by 2010 when I played him was overweight and a high 4.5 S/Vr - he served about 7-8 aces per match in the Flex league that he won and had the whole package of hard flat, hard slice and high-bouncing kick that moved sideways a lot.

I was at a tournament several years ago. One of the "fun" things they had was, you could try to return the serve of Wayne Ferreira or Rajeev Ram. You paid $50 or something and got maybe 5 serves. If you actually returned one, you got several hundred dollars as I recall. They were hitting their real serve (or at least pretty close). But certainly not their best serves because they didn't miss too many. It was absolutely untouchable. Nobody even came close to getting a return back in play and most people couldn't even get a racquet on it. It was really amazing. By the time you thought about moving, the ball was already by you. And I say this as someone who regularly plays with guys that can serve in the 120's. But 120 MPH from my partners and 120 MPH from these guys are totally different animals. Both their serves are just ridiculous.

The next year they did this, they changed the format and hit serves everyone could return. But the first year, you got to see something pretty close to a high level ATP serve.

It's funny because I've watched tennis at Indian Wells many times. From the stands you get the feeling that you could "probably" get the serves back in play. But actually having the chance to be on court and try it shows you just how amazing those serves are.

 

[tendency]

I was at a tournament several years ago. One of the "fun" things they had was, you could try to return the serve of Wayne Ferreira or Rajeev Ram. You paid $50 or something and got maybe 5 serves. If you actually returned one, you got several hundred dollars as I recall. They were hitting their real serve (or at least pretty close). But certainly not their best serves because they didn't miss too many. It was absolutely untouchable. Nobody even came close to getting a return back in play and most people couldn't even get a racquet on it. It was really amazing. By the time you thought about moving, the ball was already by you. And I say this as someone who regularly plays with guys that can serve in the 120's. But 120 MPH from my partners and 120 MPH from these guys are totally different animals. Both their serves are just ridiculous.

The next year they did this, they changed the format and hit serves everyone could return. But the first year, you got to see something pretty close to a high level ATP serve.

It's funny because I've watched tennis at Indian Wells many times. From the stands you get the feeling that you could "probably" get the serves back in play. But actually having the chance to be on court and try it shows you just how amazing those serves are.

Yeah pretty much. That's why I always find these '4.5/5.0 player plays against 7.0'. So ridiculous. If the 7.0 top 2000 player truly played w/ their A game the 4.5/5.0 would not return a single one of their serves. I've seen it happen several times. Kinda embarassing.

 

[zaph]

At club level, only one truly great serve. I have seen plenty who could hit really hard but they were either erratic or lacked a decent second serve. One player however stood head and shoulders above the rest.

He said he had his serve measured on a speed gun and could hit 125mph and after facing it I believed him. If he hit the corners of the service box the ball went passed me before I could even move. If I somehow managed to get my racket on it, the weight of the ball knocked my arm back.

It was however the second serve that was truly impressive, the amount of kick this guy could get was in a different league to anyone else I have seen. Some of these serves had so much work on them they were going clean over my head. A few were still climbing as they hit the back fence.

What I would give for a serve like that, I would never lose a match.

 

[tennis3]

At club level, only one truly great serve. I have seen plenty who could hit really hard but they were either erratic or lacked a decent second serve. One player however stood head and shoulders above the rest.

He said he had his serve measured on a speed gun and could hit 125mph and after facing it I believed him. If he hit the corners of the service box the ball went passed me before I could even move. If I somehow managed to get my racket on it, the weight of the ball knocked my arm back.

It was however the second serve that was truly impressive, the amount of kick this guy could get was in a different league to anyone else I have seen. Some of these serves had so much work on them they were going clean over my head. A few were still climbing as they hit the back fence.

What I would give for a serve like that, I would never lose a match.

This is what I'm getting at. I also see plenty of guys that can hit hard. And some days, they are "on" and really blow you away. This is actually me. I have a "good" serve. I can certainly get something in with decent pace every time. I can hit fast flat serves. But it's not a "high level" serve. I'm a self taught adult. Didn't start playing until around 35 years old. Started to try to get good at around 40. But I have some sports background. So I'm able to "athlete" at a decent level, even if my technique "sucks".

I really never see anyone like the guy you describe at the club level. Any idea if he was "self taught" (maybe some adult lessons)? Or was he an academy kid?