How many GS titles would Djokovic have won in Feds so called 'weak' era if he were born in 81?

[Tsongerer]

So how many GS titles do you think Djokovic would have won from 2003-2007 at age 21-26? Let's also assume he would have had the same draw in all those tournaments and Fed didn't exist or didn't turn pro yet. Where would he have done better and where would he have done worse?

He would have had to play at Rebound Ace in Australia and Wimby and the USO were also faster than they are now. He would have to beat prime Roddick and prime grass Nadal for all the Wimby titles and Hewitt was also competitive there. For the hardcourt slams he would have to beat old Agassi, prime Roddick, prime Hewitt, prime Safin and prime Nalbandian. He would have like 2 years from age 22-23 to snatch 1 or 2 RGs before Rafa enters the scene. Competition consists of guys like Ferrero, Kuerten, Nalbandian and Coria.

Do you think he would have gone 11/12 from non RG slams between 2004-2007 and beat Fed's amount of 12 slams at the end of 2007? Personally I think he would have struggled a lot more with the faster surfaces and would have lost more often to the main competitors in those years than Fed and I think he would have accumulated maybe 7 around slams by the end of 2007. Discuss.

 

[ForehandCross]

Nole was an early bloomer.

He will take enough slams before 2003 to make it a no contest.


To be honest specifically in 2004-2007 , a 4 year span , whichever Djokovic span you choose say 2010 to 2013 ,2011 to 2014 or 2012 to 2015 e.t.c he will come up only three or two behind Federer.

Because he hasn't been that consistent slam in and slam out as Federer for specifically a 4 year period.

However, only he and Federer have been consistent enough to make those numbers.

I don't think Rafael with all his injuries and sudden Grass issues (Along with say facing young Nadal on clay in those years) and on generally faster courts will post same numbers.


It was a weak era. But what Federer did required high level *and* incredible consistency.

 

[Tsongerer]

Nole was an early bloomer.

He will take enough slams before 2003 to make it a no contest.


To be honest specifically in 2004-2007 , a 4 year span , whichever Djokovic span you choose say 2010 to 2013 ,2011 to 2014 or 2012 to 2015 e.t.c he will come up only three or two behind Federer.

Because he hasn't been that consistent slam in and slam out as Federer for specifically a 4 year period.

However, only he and Federer have been consistent enough to make those numbers.

I don't think Rafael with all his injuries and sudden Grass issues (Along with say facing young Nadal on clay in those years) and on generally faster courts will post same numbers.


It was a weak era. But what Federer did required high level *and* incredible consistency.

He started reaching GS finals and semis after turning 20 and he didn't become a threat for healthy Fed or Rafa until he turned 23. So his 2007-2010 level would transfer to 2001-2004. His 2007-2008 level would be in 2001-2002. This was at faster non RG courts and even Sampras was still playing back then other than the guys I already mentioned earlier. I don't see Nole snatching any slams at all in 2001-2002 at age 19-21, he was not THAT good yet and won his only slam in the 2007-2010 timeframe because Fed had mono. He lost to many other players than Fed and Rafa, like Roddick, Safin, Tsonga, Berdych, Melzer, Kohlschreiber.

 

[djokovicthebest]

14
04,05,06,07 AO
04,05 RG
04,05,06,07 W
04,05,06,07 USO

 

[Fabresque]

He’ll win less than Fed. Pre-Plexi at the AO I give it to Fed continuously dominating there, I can see Novak sneaking in some US Open’s and Wimbledon in 07 maybe. People really tend to disrespect Fed’s dominance from 03-07, the man was a winning machine. A peak Djokovic would do damage but, I don’t think he’d be able to completely dethrone him of his dominance.

 

[zagor]

Hard to say, in many ways Fed influenced the development of both Nadal and Novak. IMO Novak would have had more trouble with Roddick than Fed did for example but then again he might do better against a younger Nadal on clay. You know, match-ups. I also feel surfaces were still a bit more varied in the early 2000s, though Novak is pretty adaptable either way.

 

[Tsongerer]

14
04,05,06,07 AO
04,05 RG
04,05,06,07 W
04,05,06,07 USO

Yes, the equivalent of 2010 Nole would win the calendar slam in 2004 . This is an extremely biased post. You are also saying 2011 Nole would beat 2005 Rafa at RG lol. He literally pushed prime Rafa to a 5 setter once in all their clay encounters.

 

[NoleFam]

He started reaching GS finals and semis after turning 20 and he didn't become a threat for healthy Fed or Rafa until he turned 23. So his 2007-2010 level would transfer to 2001-2004. His 2007-2008 level would be in 2001-2002. This was at faster non RG courts and even Sampras was still playing back then other than the guys I already mentioned earlier. I don't see Nole snatching any slams at all in 2001-2002 at age 19-21, he was not THAT good yet and won his only slam in the 2007-2010 timeframe because Fed had mono. He lost to many other players than Fed and Rafa, like Roddick, Safin, Tsonga, Berdych, Melzer, Kohlschreiber.

Which is still 2 years earlier than Federer when he reached his first Slam final. So he can win a Slam in 2008, which is one of the most competitive years, but he can't win one in 2001-2002, a transition period? Who's going to stop him? Johnasson?

 

[beard]

No one can know. But, it's not that important if he would have same or more than Fed (probably less IMO). Important is that he would take few more before he got 22 yo (Fed's first slam), and considerably more than Fed in later stages (time when Fed was overshadowed by main rivals)...

 

[mike danny]

Hard to say, in many ways Fed influenced the development of both Nadal and Novak. IMO Novak would have had more trouble with Roddick than Fed did for example but then again he might do better against a younger Nadal on clay. You know, match-ups. I also feel surfaces were still a bit more varied in the early 2000s, though Novak is pretty adaptable either way.

It depends though. There were more BO5 finals in the masters and Novak would have to defeat Claydal in BO5 matches on a regular basis. Can't see him achieve it.

I know it's match-ups and all, but 2005-2006 Nadal was a clay machine. The guy just never got tired.

 

[mike danny]

All I know is that both Fedovic at their peaks would dominate each other's eras. Fed would dominate 2014-2016, Novak would dominate 2004-2006.

 

[mike danny]

There were some dangerous opponents in 2004-2007 like Roddick at 2004 Wimb, Agassi at 2004 USO, Safin at 2005 AO, Claydal of course and I'm sure there are others.

Novak wouldn't just waltz through these guys that easily.

 

[Fedr and three others]

Zero

 

[djokovicthebest]

All I know is that both Fedovic at their peaks would dominate each other's eras. Fed would dominate 2014-2016, Novak would dominate 2004-2006.

Novak would dominate even more. He would be a nightmare for 2004-2006 babydal who relied on speed. I think he would win 04-06 RG.

 

[djokovicthebest]

There were some dangerous opponents in 2004-2007 like Roddick at 2004 Wimb, Agassi at 2004 USO, Safin at 2005 AO, Claydal of course and I'm sure there are others.

Novak wouldn't just waltz through these guys that easily.

Djokovic already beat Anderson, Cilic, 11/15 Federer, Murray who are better than any of those guys. Check the win%.

 

[AnOctorokForDinner]

Yeah, another 'new' user. *sigh*

 

[125downthemiddle]

Where's the 20+ option?

 

[TheAssassin]

He wouldn't dominate Wimbledon since he became comfortable on grass later in his career. Winning a lot on hard courts and having some epics against Nadal on clay, he'd do that for sure. But this is all assuming his career has an identical trajectory again.

 

[NatF]

Would Djokovic discover his gluten allergy if he was born in 1981? Would he ride some early success in say 2008 and avoid the relatively poorer 2009/2010 years? Impossible to say. Assuming his development is mostly the same, for ****s and giggles and to generate some controversy....

2007/2001: 0

AO: 0
FO: 0
Wim: 0
USO: 0

2008/2002: 2

AO: 1
FO: 1
Wim: 0
USO: 0

2009/2003: 0

AO: 0
FO: 0
Wim: 0
USO: 0

2010/2004: 0

AO: 0
FO: 0
Wim: 0
USO: 0

2011/2005: 2

AO: 0
FO: 0
Wim: 1
USO: 1

2012/2006: 2

AO: 1
FO: 0
Wim: 0
USO: 1

2013/2007: 1

AO: 1
FO: 0
Wim: 0
USO: 0

So I have him at 7 minimum, I think USO 2001/2002, AO 2005 and Wimby 2006 are at least decent shots for him as well (the AO being the strongest) so maybe it's more like 8-9? Most controversial one is probably AO 05/11, I went with Safin because I think on the sticky rebound ace surface Djokovic wouldn't be as comfortable sliding - it was kinda a garbage surface.

 

[BeatlesFan]

An even more interesting question would be if he was a young 21 year old player in 1981. His career would have been vastly different and inferior. He would never have won Wimbledon on fast grass, he would not have beaten Mac or Lendl on fast USO hardcourts and the AO was on grass till ‘85. After 1985, he might have won 3 AO’s.

He possibly could have won 5 FO’s as well.

 

[Third Serve]

Would Djokovic discover his gluten allergy if he was born in 1981? Would he ride some early success in say 2008 and avoid the relatively poorer 2009/2010 years? Impossible to say. Assuming his development is mostly the same, for ****s and giggles and to generate some controversy....

2007/2001: 0

AO: 0
FO: 0
Wim: 0
USO: 0

2008/2002: 2

AO: 1
FO: 1
Wim: 0
USO: 0

2009/2003: 0

AO: 0
FO: 0
Wim: 0
USO: 0

2010/2004: 0

AO: 0
FO: 0
Wim: 0
USO: 0

2011/2005: 2

AO: 0
FO: 0
Wim: 1
USO: 1

2012/2006: 2

AO: 1
FO: 0
Wim: 0
USO: 1

2013/2007: 1

AO: 1
FO: 0
Wim: 0
USO: 0

So I have him at 7 minimum, I think USO 2001/2002, AO 2005 and Wimby 2006 are at least decent shots for him as well (the AO being the strongest) so maybe it's more like 8-9? Most controversial one is probably AO 05/11, I went with Safin because I think on the sticky rebound ace surface Djokovic wouldn't be as comfortable sliding - it was kinda a garbage surface.

My list is pretty much the same as yours, except I might hand Djokovic AO 2005. He's at a disadvantage in this comparison because he developed at a different pace from Federer. To keep it going, I'll add 2008-2010 / 2014-2016 because we have to include some more of his prime years.

2014/2008:

AO: 1 (I could still see him winning this one)
RG: 0
W: 0 (I rate Nadal 2008 higher than Djokovic 2014)
USO: 0/1 (on one hand, 2014 Djokovic didn't play up to par, but on the other hand, I don't know who'd stop him)

2015/2009:

AO: 0 (might be controversial, but I give this to Nadal; Djokovic at AO 2015 wasn't the same as he was in AO 2008, 2011, or 2016)
RG: 0/1 (I could see Delpo taking him out, but Djokovic matches up better against him than Federer does)
W: 1
USO: 1

2016/2010:

AO: 1
RG: 0
W: 0
USO: 0

So that's at least four more, with a possible six.

 

[NatF]

My list is pretty much the same as yours, except I might hand Djokovic AO 2005. He's at a disadvantage in this comparison because he developed at a different pace from Federer. To keep it going, I'll add 2008-2010 / 2014-2016 because we have to include some more of his prime years.

2014/2008:

AO: 1 (I could still see him winning this one)
RG: 0
W: 0 (I rate Nadal 2008 higher than Djokovic 2014)
USO: 0/1 (on one hand, 2014 Djokovic didn't play up to par, but on the other hand, I don't know who'd stop him)

2015/2009:

AO: 0 (might be controversial, but I give this to Nadal; Djokovic at AO 2015 wasn't the same as he was in AO 2008, 2011, or 2016)
RG: 0/1 (I could see Delpo taking him out, but Djokovic matches up better against him than Federer does)
W: 1
USO: 1

2016/2010:

AO: 1
RG: 0
W: 0
USO: 0

So that's at least four more, with a possible six.

Yeah I originally had Djokovic with the AO 2005, I think that the surface isn't as conducive to his style of movement and that would hurt him as Safin would make him play a lot of defence.

For the USO 2008 I guess he could lose if he had to play himself? Otherwise he'd lose to Murray in the SF assuming if he came in as the #1 IMO.

 

[mike danny]

2014/2008:

USO: 0/1 (on one hand, 2014 Djokovic didn't play up to par, but on the other hand, I don't know who'd stop him)

His younger 2008 version?

 

[JaoSousa]

14
04,05,06,07 AO
04,05 RG
04,05,06,07 W
04,05,06,07 USO

Yes, the equivalent of 2010 Nole would win the calendar slam in 2004 . This is an extremely biased post. You are also saying 2011 Nole would beat 2005 Rafa at RG lol. He literally pushed prime Rafa to a 5 setter once in all their clay encounters.

Ignore the troll, he is not a new user.

 

[Dekalog12]

His younger 2008 version?

If younger version of Novak exists, then old Novak isn't winning AO 08 either.

 

[RaulRamirez]

It's unanswerable, but clearly what Fed accomplished in those years was spectacular.

Would Fed, if born in 1987, achieve a NCYGS in 15-16? Unanswerable, but Novak did it.

I do enjoy (not being sarcastic) some of the educated analysis, but there is no way of doing this with any degree of uncertainty...way too many variables once you introduce even one significant change

What if all three were born in 1981, or 85 or 86?

 

[Federev]

Hard to say, in many ways Fed influenced the development of both Nadal and Novak. IMO Novak would have had more trouble with Roddick than Fed did for example but then again he might do better against a younger Nadal on clay. You know, match-ups. I also feel surfaces were still a bit more varied in the early 2000s, though Novak is pretty adaptable either way.

Sanity.

 

[NatF]

It's unanswerable, but clearly what Fed accomplished in those years was spectacular.

Would Fed, if born in 1987, achieve a NCYGS in 15-16? Unanswerable, but Novak did it.

I do enjoy (not being sarcastic) some of the educated analysis, but there is no way of doing this with any degree of uncertainty...way too many variables once you introduce even one significant change

What if all three were born in 1981, or 85 or 86?

The only certainty is that non of the three were born at all...MuryGOAT.

 

[CYGS]

20

 

[RelentlessAttack]

A fun hypothetical here is what happens to the Nadal - Djokovic rivalry if Nadal is 5 years younger and their development is roughly similar.

 

[MeatTornado]

Novak would dominate even more. He would be a nightmare for 2004-2006 babydal who relied on speed. I think he would win 04-06 RG.

How many total matches a year do you think he would lose?

I'm gonna go conservative and say 0.

 

[RS]

AO 2002
FO 2002
FO 2003 ?
AO 2005
Wim 2005
USO 2005
AO 2006
Wimbeldon 2006
USO 2006
AO 2007
AO 2008
USO 2008
Wim 2009
USO 2009
AO 2010
Wim 12
USO 12
AO 2013

50-50 at AO 09 and RG 09 and Wim 13 and AO 2014 and FO 2003 is a question mark.
slight underdog at Wim 08

So anywhere between 17 to 23 slams for me.

 

[NatF]

AO 2002
FO 2002
FO 2003 (he was great on CC in 09 before Nadal battles drained him not the case in 2003)
AO 2005
Wim 2005
USO 2005
AO 2006
Wimbeldon 2006
USO 2006
AO 2007
AO 2008
USO 2008
Wim 2009
USO 2009
AO 2010
Wim 12
USO 12
AO 2013

50-50 at AO 09 and RG 09 and Wim 13 and AO 2014
slighly less than 50-50 at Wim 08
unlikely to win at USO 2001/2002 and RG 2005 and to lose at AO 2005 and Wim 2006.

So anywhere between 18 to 23 slams for me.

No respect for peak Ferrero on clay smh.

 

[RS]

No respect for peak Ferrero on clay smh.

Made a small edit below.

 

[Sabrina]

No respect for peak Ferrero on clay smh.

Yeah I would favor Ferrero over a pre-peak Nole on clay. 20-21 years Ferrero was going toe-to-toe with peak Kuerten on clay....

 

[NatF]

Made a small edit below.

Big oof.

Yeah I would favor Ferrero over a pre-peak Nole on clay. 20-21 years Ferrero was going toe-to-toe with peak Kuerten on clay....

Ferrero is so underrated, would put his peak level on par with Fedovic at least don't see him losing to 2009 Djokovic - he's certainly not less than 50/50 with him IMO.

 

[RS]

Big oof.



Ferrero is so underrated, would put his peak level on par with Fedovic at least don't see him losing to 2009 Djokovic - he's certainly not less than 50/50 with him IMO.

I only saw Ferrero final in 2003 at RG were he smashed Verkerk so maybe i have not seen enough. Djokovic was very impressive in MC/Rome/Madrid the battles with Nadal took everything out of him he would have been very tough at that RG playing like that. And 2009 Nadal was super on clay until after the Madrid match. So until i see more Ferrero matches i am keeping my judgement for now.

 

[Sabrina]

Big oof.



Ferrero is so underrated, would put his peak level on par with Fedovic at least don't see him losing to 2009 Djokovic - he's certainly not less than 50/50 with him IMO.

Guy was also getting better and better on HC in 2003/early 2004 before chicken pox/motivation issue finished him for good...A forgotten GS champion. I think he beat Agassi at RG in one year, Agassi wasn't playing badly but Ferrero FH on clay was just too much for him.

I would have like to see him, Coria and Kuerten do battles with early Nadal on clay. Could be one of the strongest clay fields ever.

 

[NatF]

Guy was also getting better and better on HC in 2003/early 2004 before chicken pox/motivation issue finished him for good...A forgotten GS champion. I think he beat Agassi at RG in one year, Agassi wasn't playing badly but Ferrero FH on clay was just too much for him.

I would have like to see him, Coria and Kuerten do battle with early Nadal on clay. Could be one of the strongest clay field ever.

Yeah Kuerten, Coria, Ferrero, Nadal and Federer all competing at once. Would have been the GOAT clay field imo.

Ferrero's run at the USO in 2003 was sensational stuff. Bugs me when people call him a clay specialist.

 

[NatF]

I only saw Ferrero final in 2003 at RG were he smashed Verkerk so maybe i have not seen enough. Djokovic was very impressive in MC/Rome/Madrid the battles with Nadal took everything out of him he would have been very tough at that RG playing like that. And 2009 Nadal was super on clay until after the Madrid match. So until i see more Ferrero matches i am keeping my judgement for now.

Djokovic was good on clay in 2009 but I don't think he was as good as peak Ferrero and he underperformed too much in that period for me to give him the benefit of a doubt. He lost to freaking Kohli in straight sets and you're giving more than 50% to win the whole thing in 2003...

 

[Sabrina]

Yeah Kuerten, Coria, Ferrero, Nadal and Federer all competing at once. Would have been the GOAT clay field imo.

Ferrero's run at the USO in 2003 was sensational stuff. Bugs me when people call him a clay specialist.

His match against Lleyton at 2002 YEC was very impressive too. Ferrero was competitive against his contemporaries (especially Safin and Hewitt). Roddick OTOH owned him though.

 

[RS]

Djokovic was good on clay in 2009 but I don't think he was as good as peak Ferrero and he underperformed too much in that period for me to give him the benefit of a doubt. He lost to freaking Kohli in straight sets and you're giving more than 50% to win the whole thing in 2003...

Yeah. He was wore down from in the epics vs Nadal in the Kohli loss. I added that in. In 2003 he has way more energy coming to RG the matches in Madrid/Rome/MC/DC killed him physically.....

 

[Jonesy]

Every. Single. One.

 

[NatF]

Yeah. He was wore down from in the epics vs Nadal in the Kohli loss. I added that in. In 2003 he has way more energy coming to RG the matches in Madrid/Rome/MC/DC killed him physically.....

Lol he lost in straights, deffo can't just blame that on being tired.

 

[NatF]

His match against Lleyton at 2002 YEC was very impressive too. Ferrero was competitive against his contemporaries (especially Safin and Hewitt). Roddick OTOH owned him though.

He had some great battles with Lleyton, tough five setter on grass in the 2003 Davis Cup final too.

 

[RS]

Lol he lost in straights, deffo can't just blame that on being tired.

It is visible that he was never the same that season after that match. Look that Nadal after that as well...... It took everything out of them really. I do not see if he nearly beat Nadal at Madrid and gave him a tough match in others why he could not grind down Ferrero if he was on. Like i say i will check out Ferrero match vs Kuerten i could change up mind......

 

[Sabrina]

He had some great battles with Lleyton, tough five setter on grass in the 2003 Davis Cup final too.

They also had an epic Final at Rotterdam in 2004. Probably the last match of Ferrero as a top player though.

 

[mike danny]

It is visible that he was never the same that season after that match. Look that Nadal after that as well...... It took everything out of them really. I do not see if he nearly beat Nadal at Madrid and gave him a tough match in others why he could not grind down Ferrero if he was on. Like i say i will check out Ferrero match vs Kuerten i could change up mind......

Djokovic recovered in the American HC season in 2009, IMO. Post Wimb, he actually had a pretty good 2009 and was unlucky not to qualify for the semis of the WTF too.

 

[Deleted member 743561]

No Federer to guide his sleigh tonight.

So he gets smoked right out of the gates and retires.

 

[RS]

Djokovic recovered in the American HC season in 2009, IMO. Post Wimb, he actually had a pretty good 2009 and was unlucky not to qualify for the semis of the WTF too.

Still not the same though.