How many hours to learn kick 2nd serve?
- Thread starter men8ifr
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I learned from this guy and about hundreds of practice serve balls
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SsPLPV_EcG4
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SsPLPV_EcG4
goran_ace
Hall of Fame
It doesn't take long to learn the basic principles and the motion, but it's not like you learn it once and then you've got it. It's always going to be a work in process. If you want it to be accurate and reliable or if you want to turn it into offense you need to continue to practice and work on it.
This. Especially if we are talking about a kick serve that moves to the right with some pace (assuming you are are right hander).
I see some people call any serve with some topspin a 'kick' serve - and that you can pick up really fast. A topspin/slice serve (that even some announcers will call kick) is a very natural shot..
A kick serve that really works feels very odd to hit..
Mongolmike
Hall of Fame
For many people the concept is difficult to image in their brain... imagining a clock face, brush up from 8-2, etc... and also if don't have a body awareness to feel what they are doing... it can be impossible to learn. If you have problems hitting a slice serve, you probably are really gonna have trouble with a kicker.
If you can currently hit a decent slice, you should be able to make the proper adjustments to hit a kicker. Plan on framing/shanking a lot of balls at first, but it is a solid, reliable 2nd serve to learn for many.
It would help and speed the process if you have someone who knows what they are doing watch you and critique... especially early in the process.
A timeline is impossible to predict for any individual sight un-seen on a tennis forum.
If you can currently hit a decent slice, you should be able to make the proper adjustments to hit a kicker. Plan on framing/shanking a lot of balls at first, but it is a solid, reliable 2nd serve to learn for many.
It would help and speed the process if you have someone who knows what they are doing watch you and critique... especially early in the process.
A timeline is impossible to predict for any individual sight un-seen on a tennis forum.
FogerRederer
Rookie
I spent one whole summer of 1.5 hours a day 4 days a week to even start noticing any top spin on my 2nd serve.
It wasn't I learned that I still have to swing fast but in a controlled manner to impart enough top spin, that my 2nd serve came to life! Nowadays as a rapidly improving highschool player, my 2nd serves are no longer liabilities, but strengths on which I can rely on in matches
It wasn't I learned that I still have to swing fast but in a controlled manner to impart enough top spin, that my 2nd serve came to life! Nowadays as a rapidly improving highschool player, my 2nd serves are no longer liabilities, but strengths on which I can rely on in matches
mightyrick
Legend
It took me about a month to learn it. It has taken me four years to become mediocre and inconsistent with it.
Everyone is different.
Some learn it in 3 days, using it in competition immediately.
Other's might learn in 34 years ago, never felt the need to hit it, then decide it's a nice diversion from the regular topspin second serves.
And of course, there's the chosen few who never can figure out the action or the need of the physical strain to hit that particular serve.
Some learn it in 3 days, using it in competition immediately.
Other's might learn in 34 years ago, never felt the need to hit it, then decide it's a nice diversion from the regular topspin second serves.
And of course, there's the chosen few who never can figure out the action or the need of the physical strain to hit that particular serve.
WildVolley
Legend
I once taught a guy how to hit a decent kick serve in about 30 minutes. It wasn't a grooved stroke at the point, but he was hitting decent topspin and understood the basics.
I've seen other people work for months on it with little success. If you have a grooved stroke with a SW fh grip, it often is going to take a lot of work to break bad habits.
I've seen other people work for months on it with little success. If you have a grooved stroke with a SW fh grip, it often is going to take a lot of work to break bad habits.
the kicker serve . . . it's very difficult. maybe several years before it's a proper one, but i still haven't got it sorted out.
i wonder how many out there can consistently put it to the backhand, and deep in the corner like my coach could. this is a refined kick serve - it will travel very high over the net to get that depth , which helps it to bounce even higher and touch the back fence quite high
i'm not happy with mine, but i'm improving. even little things like getting in the sweet spot help making it a better kick serve. i got all other strokes - tspin bh and fh, slice, first serve coming along too, but the kick serve . . . it's there sometimes and on other days troubling me.
i think though, as someone said, it's not a very natural serve to hit. i wasn't aware just how much arch in the back i needed .
sometimes i think , a person can have the ability all along , but there is something they need to do a little differently. eg when i started rocking back much less my toss became more accurate.
i wonder how many out there can consistently put it to the backhand, and deep in the corner like my coach could. this is a refined kick serve - it will travel very high over the net to get that depth , which helps it to bounce even higher and touch the back fence quite high
i'm not happy with mine, but i'm improving. even little things like getting in the sweet spot help making it a better kick serve. i got all other strokes - tspin bh and fh, slice, first serve coming along too, but the kick serve . . . it's there sometimes and on other days troubling me.
i think though, as someone said, it's not a very natural serve to hit. i wasn't aware just how much arch in the back i needed .
sometimes i think , a person can have the ability all along , but there is something they need to do a little differently. eg when i started rocking back much less my toss became more accurate.
Mongolmike
Hall of Fame
The fun part is when you occasionally use it as a first serve to the ad court. I can hit a flatter serve or a slice down the T, then occasionally throw a kicker wide up the line to the backhand.... that is a lot of ground to have to cover!
For my second serve I am more conservative about location, but using it occasionally as a 1st serve to the ad I am happy if I can drop it wide within a foot or two of the outside line, and about half-way in the box. Little kick takes it through the alley... that is a tough bh to do anything with.
Makes me smile (if an evil sort of way) every time I do it.
For my second serve I am more conservative about location, but using it occasionally as a 1st serve to the ad I am happy if I can drop it wide within a foot or two of the outside line, and about half-way in the box. Little kick takes it through the alley... that is a tough bh to do anything with.
Makes me smile (if an evil sort of way) every time I do it.
crash1929
Hall of Fame
I'd served slice all my life then finally this year I saw some videos posted here that teach the topspin serve. Once I learned what to do- I was hitting decent topspin serves in 1-2 weeks.
YES once you know how to do it serving high percentage second serves becomes EASIER. For me the consistency comes from the legs.
ProgressoR
Hall of Fame
2 months for a good kick first serve, 3 more months for a second serve.
goober
Legend
Personally I have never learned a decent one. I didn't start tennis to my mid 30s and was pretty much serving flat and slice for first 5 years. When I started facing upper level 4.0 and 4.5 players I started getting exposed on my second serve. I tried to learn it on my own. That didn't work too well. I went to a local respected teaching pro and he pretty much told me he didn't recommend learning a kicker someone over 40 because of the strain on the back. I stopped for awhile, but now there is a ton of info and instruction on the internet so trying again. Most club players even at the 4.0-4.5 level don't hit real kickers, it is mostly topspin slice serve I have noticed.
Nostradamus
Bionic Poster
much Easier from Ad side. but from the deuce side, it is a lot harder to do. why is that ?
GoudX
Professional
My kick serve is probably my biggest weapon - lots of players at my club describe it as being worse to return than some of the other players' 110mph+ flat serves because it is so hard to read (I move it around the box, vary pace and switch between pure topspin, top slice, twist and kickers with enough disguise that people don't know what to expect).
That said, I wouldn't say I've learned everything there is to know about it. For instance I still struggle to get the serve out wide on the forehand without resorting to the kick-slice, which makes it easier to read. If I could nail the left hand corner of the box with a twist serve like I can with the right hand corner I would be able to open up the court a bit more. I would also like to be able to get another foot of kick height with a bit more consistency (I can get the ball above head height on a 6ft player with decent pace, but it requires a fairly uncontrolled swing so it is only really a first serve at the moment as I demand at least 95% consistency on any serve in practice before I let myself use it as a second serve), and I would also like to be able to bring in a heavy slice as a second serve.
It's taken me about three years to change from learning the basic mechanics to having this weapon. And in the last year and a half I've focused on attacking with the spin, consistency and placement rather than pace, and that's when I really saw results.
So about 3 years of 10 hours a week on court, using it as a primary serve makes a great weapon. It stopped being a liability after about 3 months, and was an effective weapon within a year.
That said, I wouldn't say I've learned everything there is to know about it. For instance I still struggle to get the serve out wide on the forehand without resorting to the kick-slice, which makes it easier to read. If I could nail the left hand corner of the box with a twist serve like I can with the right hand corner I would be able to open up the court a bit more. I would also like to be able to get another foot of kick height with a bit more consistency (I can get the ball above head height on a 6ft player with decent pace, but it requires a fairly uncontrolled swing so it is only really a first serve at the moment as I demand at least 95% consistency on any serve in practice before I let myself use it as a second serve), and I would also like to be able to bring in a heavy slice as a second serve.
It's taken me about three years to change from learning the basic mechanics to having this weapon. And in the last year and a half I've focused on attacking with the spin, consistency and placement rather than pace, and that's when I really saw results.
So about 3 years of 10 hours a week on court, using it as a primary serve makes a great weapon. It stopped being a liability after about 3 months, and was an effective weapon within a year.
Question?
If you're rightie, why would you want to twist a serve to the left side of the box? Wouldn't that ball bounce into the opponent, so he doesn't have to move as far to get to a well placed serve?
Why not top/slice when going to left sides of boxes, so the ball curves AWAY from the opponent?
I know variety is nice, but allowing an opponent to hit the ball easier is not good practice after a couple of attempts.
If you're rightie, why would you want to twist a serve to the left side of the box? Wouldn't that ball bounce into the opponent, so he doesn't have to move as far to get to a well placed serve?
Why not top/slice when going to left sides of boxes, so the ball curves AWAY from the opponent?
I know variety is nice, but allowing an opponent to hit the ball easier is not good practice after a couple of attempts.
what level of kick serve?
say something like a 3.5-4.0 you might get quickly.
Something like a 90 mph that jump above players heads and you have the ability to put it anywhere you want it....thats going to take a bit longer. i would estimate it took me 7-8 years at least.
Hours.....LOL. just quit tennis if you think you can learn things in hours.
say something like a 3.5-4.0 you might get quickly.
Something like a 90 mph that jump above players heads and you have the ability to put it anywhere you want it....thats going to take a bit longer. i would estimate it took me 7-8 years at least.
Hours.....LOL. just quit tennis if you think you can learn things in hours.
Ok, thats why I mention what level.
Honestly though. There are no excuses in developing your serve. Its the one shot your can practice entirely alone. You dont even need to be a good athlete to have a great serve. I spent spent hours as a kid hitting serves. i would grab the basket and just go hit serves for 2 hours. Its the tennis equivalent of the driving range.
GoudX
Professional
The top slice is the standard shot to the forehand for the reason you said, but because the opponent will be expecting a top-slice serve they will learn to start moving quickly and early for the wide serve. However, if instead of kicking away from them it kicks the other way back into their body they will be completely wrong footed as they are running to the other side of the bounce and they will either have to push it back or miss. I do this from time to time to get free points/sitters, but I could do with a bit more pace, kick and accuracy to make it more effective against REALLY good returners.
men8ifr
Semi-Pro
I was after the number of practice hours not total time, some people may spend 2 hrs a week practicing, others may spend 40 hours... Thats a big difference.
men8ifr
Semi-Pro
I will have to look at the difference between a topspin serve and kick serve, I was thinking of something that is in 95 % of the time and the returner cant attack easily. Ive only been playing a year and a half so maybe wont take too long to learn something thats ok at my level. I tried a slice serve on friday and could hit that straight away almost but dont know what % I would get in yet. I guess the progression is slice then topspin? I guess its the topspin serve that really helps improve the % in and makes tje ball bounce high?
thats tough. i would start with 1/2 hour each practice every day and see how your body takes it. Kick serves are pretty violent on the body. Maybe do 1st serve slice and second serve kick in your practice so your not killing your back.
GoudX
Professional
Serve practice is limited by wear and tear on the arm. If I do more than 2 hours of serving in a week (actual time spent serving from points and practice) I wear out my arm and cannot play as well and start risking injury.
This last week was fairly extreme and I am currently ignoring match requests to let my arm heal. I played 1.5 hours of doubles last Sunday - followed by half an hour of service practice. 1.5 hours of singles rallying on Monday, 2 hours of doubles on Wednesday, followed by a 45 minute singles set. And I got massacred in 3 sets of singles (2 hours) on Thursday as I was trying to return a 120mph flat serve and pin back an aggressive all courter with dead legs and an arm which was aching at every joint (trying to return the serve put a lot of stress on my arm, which is why ,y arm is worse than the amount of play would suggest).
Putting it into perspective, the week I described above was FAR LESS harsh on my arm than 30 mins of 90% speed service practice per day would be - so make sure you are pacing yourself correctly with the amount of practice per week.
This last week was fairly extreme and I am currently ignoring match requests to let my arm heal. I played 1.5 hours of doubles last Sunday - followed by half an hour of service practice. 1.5 hours of singles rallying on Monday, 2 hours of doubles on Wednesday, followed by a 45 minute singles set. And I got massacred in 3 sets of singles (2 hours) on Thursday as I was trying to return a 120mph flat serve and pin back an aggressive all courter with dead legs and an arm which was aching at every joint (trying to return the serve put a lot of stress on my arm, which is why ,y arm is worse than the amount of play would suggest).
Putting it into perspective, the week I described above was FAR LESS harsh on my arm than 30 mins of 90% speed service practice per day would be - so make sure you are pacing yourself correctly with the amount of practice per week.
acintya
Legend
to bump this topic - I dont believe anyone on the world with no foreknowledge can master this serve in a few hours\days\weeks. Ok maybe a very bad one with an estern backhand grip - because this way is it a lot easier to impart spin! but a real top spin kick serve with an continental grip? we are talking about months if not years.
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FiReFTW
Legend
Its probably the hardest most complex shot to learn.
And by learn I mean really master it, so its quality with good pace and good spin and high bounce and decent placement.
D
Deleted member 120290
Guest
I think a proper, nasty kick serve is much easier to learn when you are young than when you become a full adult.
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Dragy
Legend
In my opinion, effective kick serve is based on good basic/uniform serve mechanics. Ability to consistently produce high RHS. With mediocre serve mechanics learning to impart topspin on the ball will get you just so far. In terms that you can achieve safer arcing ball flight, but not challenge any decent player with it’s bounce.
With good physical ability and proper sequential utilization of all required power sources it’s not that hard to get the new swingpath and “thin” accross contact.
With good physical ability and proper sequential utilization of all required power sources it’s not that hard to get the new swingpath and “thin” accross contact.
IowaGuy
Hall of Fame
I learned it my freshman year of high school tennis. Had never hit one before that, but practiced it nearly every day of tennis season (with my coach's guidance) and by the end of the season, could hit it confidently in matches.
Topspin Shot
Legend
It took me a couple days of practicing to hit my first real kick serve. But I've been playing for 10 years and I'm still working on it.
Kobble
Hall of Fame
I wish I remembered. I developed my 2nd serve with just the idea of brushing up the back, up and out, and alot of practice. I never got a good kick serve though, just enough to be reliable, and move it around the box. To get from no kick to some kick was maybe 8-10 serve practices, and it probably took about 5-10 matches before I could use it reliably. So I am guessing 10-20 hours to use it in a match at 3.5-4.5 level.
ScotianTennis
New User
Most players that have played many years and then try to learn the kick serve will take longer to learn because it is extremely difficult to change the racket path. For kick serve the racket path is towards the side fence/along the baseline. Players that have played many years find this extremely difficult.
The best way to learn this serve is by progressions from knees and choking up on racket, see video. You need to get understanding of impact point being behind head and racket path moving sideways and not into the court.
The best way to learn this serve is by progressions from knees and choking up on racket, see video. You need to get understanding of impact point being behind head and racket path moving sideways and not into the court.
I've taught guys who have good flat and slice serves how to hit a kick serves that will bounce to the right a couple of feet very sucessfully in one or two sessions when I was teaching the serve clinic at the club I used to be at. However, they have to practice it a lot initially or they will lose the feel of how to do it and need to practice it even more for it to be reliable.
Heck, even I lose the feel of it after a long layoff and I've been hitting it longer than most of you have been alive.
Heck, even I lose the feel of it after a long layoff and I've been hitting it longer than most of you have been alive.
Hmgraphite1
Hall of Fame
What are some of the things that help or what to avoid?
It's just learning the correct swing path and the things your body must do to create that. Each person will have different things they do that don't fit with the motion and you have to correct whatever that specific person is doing. One thing I did in the warm-up portion was to use bands for them to pull in the correct direction (over the head, upward and left to right) to get the feeling of the motion.
The other thing is to practice hitting from behind your head, spinning the ball by brushing up (sharp angle of strings to ball) and hitting the ball 30 ft or more into the air, not worrying about where it is going, just worrying about getting the ball high with lots of spin.
(lots of ball framed until they get the feeling)
FiReFTW
Legend
Now that the weather is nice I need to really start working hard on it, yesterday I was hitting it in my match 90% of the time in order to work on it. When it went in it was nice, decent kick and it bounced to the right alot and the opponent struggled with it alot, tho I still need to hit it more sideways with my swing, its still a bit too aggressive and pacey instead of even more spinny and bouncy.
But I did too many double faults, hit the net way too many times with it because I finished my swing down too soon instead of keeping the swing going up.
But I did too many double faults, hit the net way too many times with it because I finished my swing down too soon instead of keeping the swing going up.
IowaGuy
Hall of Fame
One way to practice this is to play matches with a hitting partner where you only get 1 serve (a 2nd serve).
We used to do this in high school practice, keeps the points moving fast and lots of 2nd serve practice under pressure...
FiReFTW
Legend
Yeah, im hoping to develop a consistent kick serve throughout this summer season.
It has alot of right elements already and it kicks right after bounce alot, but I tend to pull down on it too soon alot of times instead of really keeping swinging up, so then i tend to get a lower trajectory, still a right bounce but not as high as it could be, but also more risky and easier to hit the net.
IowaGuy
Hall of Fame
FiReFTW
Legend
Few thousand more reps and you'll probably have it down pat
Yeah, then few more thousand reps working on placement hehehe
acintya
Legend
thanks..thats so true and discouraging at the same time.
acintya
Legend
we sometimes go to the court in number 3. and we play tiebreaks and pay less because we divide the amount in 3. indoors its quite a pricey hobby
acintya
Legend
i already nailed some serves with my left hand!!!such powerful spin serve (toss a little in front).
yesterday i came back and i lost the feeling totally! but this will not stop me
the nondominant hand is flexible and lively like hell!!! and the spin motion is somehow engraved in my brain - because this was the first thing i was learning to do with my left hand.
i will need a year - 3x a week to get it going for matches..
yesterday i came back and i lost the feeling totally! but this will not stop me
the nondominant hand is flexible and lively like hell!!! and the spin motion is somehow engraved in my brain - because this was the first thing i was learning to do with my left hand.
i will need a year - 3x a week to get it going for matches..
IowaGuy
Hall of Fame
You don't have outdoor public courts where you live?
