How many matches per player?

[Cindysphinx]

In our 3.0 spring league (April-June), we will play 10 matches. With 17 people on the team, most players will get 4-5 matches (two players will get only three matches). Rosters can be as large as 20, but then players would get at most 4 matches.

Yet keeping the roster to 17 has already resulted in a few near-defaults, where I had half the team unavailable to play some matches.

How many matches will be in your spring season, how many players do you have, and how many matches per player does your team guarantee you?

Cindy -- who worked on the schedule for the rest of the season and found that if even one more person decides they're unavailable that the whole thing will come tumbling down like a house of cards

 

[Caswell]

My men's 3.5 team was 12 players this spring, with eight matches. I played five (four singles, one doubles). I was asked to play a sixth but was out of town. My mixed team is about 16 strong, with 12 matches. I played in six of those.

I prefer singles in USTA league play, so that helps me get in the lineup more often than not.

As a younger member of the mixed team, the early part of the mixed season is sporadic for me as the folks with more team "seniority" get on court more often. As injuries and fatigue pile on, I get more matches. By the end of the season I was playing in every team match.

 

[CrocodileRock]

I wish we had 17...

You're lucky you can have up to 17. We are limited to 14 by local rule. Another local rule is that only one player per team can live more than 50 miles out of town. The problem with these rules is that other cities in our section don't have them, so we will be at a disadvantage when we play them in sectionals. The teams that have superstars driving from all around the state to play for them, and who can use 8 different guys for three straight matches will have an edge on our same 8-10 guys who play over and over in the 100+ heat here.

But to answer your question, we play 3 round robins against the other three teams, so 9 matches times 8 guys each match divided by 12 guys on the team means that each guy should get 6 matches.

 

[JavierLW]

In our 3.0 spring league (April-June), we will play 10 matches. With 17 people on the team, most players will get 4-5 matches (two players will get only three matches). Rosters can be as large as 20, but then players would get at most 4 matches.

Yet keeping the roster to 17 has already resulted in a few near-defaults, where I had half the team unavailable to play some matches.

How many matches will be in your spring season, how many players do you have, and how many matches per player does your team guarantee you?

Cindy -- who worked on the schedule for the rest of the season and found that if even one more person decides they're unavailable that the whole thing will come tumbling down like a house of cards

Wow, 17 players? That seems like way too many for me.

From what I can tell in our USTA leagues it all depends on the type of players you get for your team.

On my team Ive had a little as 10 one year and it worked out great because all of those 10 wanted to play tennis and it was a priority to them.

I think if you have a team full of players like that, then you really want 11-12, maybe 13. That's really the ideal team because you want your team to get better during the season and gain experience, especially at 3.0 and 3.5.

My situation was lucky because I had an outdoor team and I basically recruited my own players and mostly looked out for that factor in them.

Some club teams Ive observed are not so fortuanate to be able to just recruit everyone they want, so they need 14-15 players just to make sure they can field a team from week to week. Unless they have a lot of ringers, in general these are not as strong teams though.

But if you have more than 15, that's just crazy. And if you have 17 and you still have problems fielding a team then I think you have some of the wrong type of players.

What I do is I ask for off dates at the beginning of the year and usually that takes care of most of it (consider who I have on my team though).

I also make a tentative schedule and then I use those off dates to try to give people an appropriate amount of matches, but if I cant, I cant.

Some of my best players get to play every single match, and after that depending on who the opponents are the better you are, the more matches you are going to get. This is only fair as some of these guys are playing tennis year round, are taking lessons and are constantly trying to improve and work on their game, and some of the other guys are just showing up once a week for USTA league.

It's also well known that it is a tentative schedule, not a real schedule. We're going to change it from week to week if we have too, and because of that I think it means that players are less likely to just figure they are "OFF" and make other plans, because in reality nobody is necessarily "ON" (except for my top 3 players).

This is going to be our fourth season this year and I think this system has been accepted very well from my players. If someone did have a problem with it, I would have no problem with having them play for another team where they are happier and Im sure I would find someone else that likes our team.

Ive had the occasional person who drops out on a match at the last minute. If they do it constantly then I dont bother trying to give them a lot of matches in the future because I realize that it's not a priority to them, and it's not fair to someone else who I could of let play in the first place.

If I had 17 players that I had to somehow accomidate Id probally never bother playing that person again because being a captain is hard enough, you dont want to put yourself in a situation where you have to scramble to find someone at the last minute.

 

[tennisee]

Our summer season - Men's Metro, is a Saturday afternoon grass comp. We play 18 rounds (20 if you make the finals) from October to April, breaking over Jan. We play two singles and two dubs - needing four players, but our team has five, so we are rostered off one in five. (some teams play more players each week - that's allowed) That seems about right, as you can juggle other commitments but get a regular hit. We cancel if it's over 39 degrees C (102F) and that cost us a couple, and a bye or two as there are only 9 teams in a 10 team draw.

 

[Cindysphinx]

Javier, the reason teams have to be so big is that our matches are not on a regular day or time. They can be any day of the week, 7 p.m. or later on weeknights and anytime on weekends. The schedule comes out, at best, a week before play begins.

So you get lots of people who can't play particular days and times. It's a drag. Putting a schedule together is like solving a Rubick's cube. "Let's see. Becky and Lisa play well together but Becky can't play the last two matches, and Lisa can't play the first two . . . "

 

[tennis-n-sc]

That's why captains make the big bucks.

 

[Mark Jensen]

I agree with what Javier wrote. We also keep the roster lower than yours Cindy. But we have the "luxury" of having the entire season's schedule published by the 1st match.

We ran a roster of 13 guys in our 3.5 Adult league for a 14 match season.
At the beginning, I schedule the entire season in an Excell spreadsheet (based on who's available, their strengths, dubs pairings, & the opponent's strength). And we stick pretty much to that original schedule the whole season.

I start by giving everybody approximately equall playing time (about 8 matches each), but with substitutions from week to week (never had someone not show at match time) our guys each played from 7 to 11 matches.

Javier really hit all the big points...player commitment is key.
Cindy, your LLC seems to be blowing it with the last minute scheduling. Our local league wouldn't put up with that for a minute. I'm so sorry you have to manage a team like that. Yuck.

 

[JavierLW]

I agree with what Javier wrote. We also keep the roster lower than yours Cindy. But we have the "luxury" of having the entire season's schedule published by the 1st match.

We ran a roster of 13 guys in our 3.5 Adult league for a 14 match season.
At the beginning, I schedule the entire season in an Excell spreadsheet (based on who's available, their strengths, dubs pairings, & the opponent's strength). And we stick pretty much to that original schedule the whole season.

I start by giving everybody approximately equall playing time (about 8 matches each), but with substitutions from week to week (never had someone not show at match time) our guys each played from 7 to 11 matches.

Javier really hit all the big points...player commitment is key.
Cindy, your LLC seems to be blowing it with the last minute scheduling. Our local league wouldn't put up with that for a minute. I'm so sorry you have to manage a team like that. Yuck.

Right I was thinking the same thing about the LLC. Especially the part about the matches being on any day of the week, that's just unacceptable.

In most leagues I believe that unless they change the day on you, you typically know which weeknight you will be playing on. It doesnt really matter where the match is that much or what specific time (it has to be 6pm or later, most matches are at 6pm unless there is a court situation which causes it to be at 7:30pm or a rain delay).

You should keep complaining to the national and the section about this since you guys are the customers. That is just unacceptable.

 

[cak]

Our 3.5 ladies team has 15 regular season matches, and 20 players on our roster. We make no attempt to have them all play the same amount of matches, but all 3.5s are guaranteed two matches (assuming they are available for more than two, and don't drop out after they are scheduled), and we try to get all the 3.0s in at least one match. Present lineups show we should hit that by match 10, leaving the last five matches to either go for the playoffs or even out the matches, depending on where we are in the standings.

Note: this is a country club team. We don't get to pick the players, any club member can join a team where they are at the level or one below. If you are at that level by club rules you must be played twice. If you are not at that level you may never be played. To play up you must also sign up for the team at your level if it exists. So any 3.0s on our 3.5 team must also be on the 3.0 team, and if the schedule shakes out that there are matches for both on the same day the team at your level has first choice for pulling players. So you can't blow off the 3.0 team to play for the 3.5 team. Given these limitations, the captains are required to attempt to put a winning lineup out there, no random generator, no everyone gets the same amount of matches, no set all the lineups at the beginning of the season.

In the past we used to have the concept of "social" teams versus "competitive" teams. The concept was if the majority of the players voted for a social team the captain could just assign everyone their matches at the beginning of the season and everyone would get the same amount of games. Even when we had enough players for two teams at a level, and divided the teams by experience, the less experienced players still voted for competive. Not one team voted for social. So that concept was taken out of the bylaws and all USTA teams from our club are now considered competitive.

The 2 guaranteed matches for your own level can be hard. We didn't have a firm cutoff procedure set in place, and when you could sign up teams we had 15 3.0 players showing interest. Now there are almost 25 players on that team for 13 matches. And they are all 3.0s. We are working on fixing that.

Surprisingly, despite these limitations, our club makes it to playoffs about half the time, and has made league championships 16 times.

 

[cak]

Right I was thinking the same thing about the LLC. Especially the part about the matches being on any day of the week, that's just unacceptable.

In NorCal the home team gets to pick the day and time, so matches can be on any day of the week. As long as they are set up at the beginning of the season I haven't seen a problem.

 

[AR15]

O
In the past we used to have the concept of "social" teams versus "competitive" teams. The concept was if the majority of the players voted for a social team the captain could just assign everyone their matches at the beginning of the season and everyone would get the same amount of games. Even when we had enough players for two teams at a level, and divided the teams by experience, the less experienced players still voted for competive. Not one team voted for social. So that concept was taken out of the bylaws and all USTA teams from our club are now considered competitive.

The players on my team are toying with the idea of a "social" and a "competitive" team. We have the problem with several players who never come to practice, don't take lessons, and only play on league night. Some of these guys are busy professionals with families yada yada, so I'm not knocking them for the lack of emphasis they put on tennis. However, by the same token, I think they would have to understand the feelings of those who want a more competitive team. I wish I knew a way to make this work.


Back on subject: On my team, I have everyone list their availability at the beginning of the season. There are enough players unavailable that the rest play almost every match.

Another captain at my club has had a couple of large teams with 20-22 players (on a local non-USTA league). I told this captain that if I played, I'd want the team split into two teams. The captain said his fear was having to forfeit courts by not having enough spares. I sign up to play tennis, not spectate or stay home. I'd rather play every week and forfeit a court every now and then, then not play.

 

[Cindysphinx]

There is one advantage of "any day, any time" scheduling. It assures everyone can play some matches.

My sister's 3.0 team in Colorado plays Monday nights. Period. If you are a 3.0 and Mondays aren't good for you, you are straight out of luck. Mixed is Sunday night. Ladies 3.5 is Saturday, I think.

So you can play 3.0 on Mondays, but then if the computer kicks you to 3.5, you had better be available on Fridays.

But they never have trouble finding enough available players because everybody knows for sure when the matches will be.

 

[JavierLW]

There is one advantage of "any day, any time" scheduling. It assures everyone can play some matches.

My sister's 3.0 team in Colorado plays Monday nights. Period. If you are a 3.0 and Mondays aren't good for you, you are straight out of luck. Mixed is Sunday night. Ladies 3.5 is Saturday, I think.

So you can play 3.0 on Mondays, but then if the computer kicks you to 3.5, you had better be available on Fridays.

But they never have trouble finding enough available players because everybody knows for sure when the matches will be.

Cindy, our league is exactly like that. 3.0 is on Mondays, 3.5 is on Thursdays, (pretty much nothing is on Saturdays because that's strange, in our area most people are busy on Saturdays with their familys, etc..., especially in the summer).

We used to have two days for a lot of the bigger levels. Like 3.0 could be on Tuesday and Thursdays, and 3.5 was the same. You didnt get to pick a day every week, but when you signed your team up you picked whether you wanted a Tuesday 3.0 team or a Thursday 3.0 team.

I agree that I liked that way better, but eventually they moved all the levels to their own seperate day. (another example of the local league coordinators doing something without asking us the customer about which probally lost them customers)

This did affect certain teams, I know of at least one 3.0 team that rather than move to Monday just plays 3.5 now. (luckily we get to play them again this year) Some teams disapeared entirely.

But either way seems better than just choosing your own day of the week. It's impossible for any local league to even have a schedule until probally less than a month before the season starts (because they have to map out court availabiltiy and call clubs, etc..., which is not fun to sort out for a larger league like ours). And if you do that there isnt much time for home teams to "pick a day of the week".

Plus I dont think it's really fair to the away teams. It's enought that you have to travel to someone else's club (in our area it can be as far as a 25-45 minute drive sometimes), but to let them choose the day when your own players may not be available is too much.

If the goal is that everyone gets a chance at actually playing, then you should just run the league on one certain day. A lot of people play in multiple levels (and mixed as well) and it would be almost impossible to field a team if you had to play on a random day every week. Plus depending on where you are, a lot of people find lots of other things to do in the summer as well (softball, golf, vacation, picnics, etc....).

Im sure you lose just as many customers to the way you are doing it, as you would from just having one day for each level. If you are someone who has to miss a lot of matches because it's never at a certain day that you can make, your more likely not going to bother to play as much because it wasnt as good of an experience for you. A lot of people hate driving around all over the place as it is, without having to do it on a diffrent day every week.

 

[Topaz]

Cindy, we decided to up our rosters from 20 to 22 this year...and still we end up with some default issues. Hard to imagine that you can't round up 8 people for a match, out of 22!!!

Any team I have captained or played on has never 'gauranteed' a certain number of matches. Usually we may start out trying to do that, but it goes without saying that the less available people will get less matches. Also, people who practice regularly with the team will get more matches.

 

[Masamusou]

First league match for the season for me is tomorrow night. Scheduled weekly for Tuesday nights every week at the same time so we have a set day. I believe the team has 13-14 people. 10 matches for the season I believe, I'm scheduled to play 6 of them right now. First two matches at #2 singles and #1 singles respectively, and then my last four are scheduled at various doubles positions. I don't have the schedule with me but I think our lineups are set to give everyone 5-6 matches. I guess the captain decided to go with an even number of matches even if that means giving up a couple wins. Not my place to decide who plays; I'm just one of the guys on the team. There is too much drama being a captain (this is my first year attempting this league thing anyway).

 

[tennisee]

Guys - can I ask a question about how it works in USTA? (I'm from Aust - and surprised ours is so different; I imagined it would be the same the world over!)
I take it you need 8 players, but how many singles and doubles are played, and on how many courts?

In my grass comp we have 4 singles and 2 dubs on 2 courts, so the normal thing is 1&2 singles play, then 3&4 singles, then both dubs after that. It's common but not mandatory that you would play a singles then a dubs each time.

So a team needs 4 players each time, but might have 5 or 6 players. Usually it's just the older players who play only dubs so they don't have to run so much.

We have best of three sets - third set is a 10 pt tiebreak. Our matches (Saturday) start at 1pm and usually finish 5.30 to 6 pm. I take it you use more courts too, and it's all over a lot quicker?

thanks

 

[Topaz]

Guys - can I ask a question about how it works in USTA? (I'm from Aust - and surprised ours is so different; I imagined it would be the same the world over!)
I take it you need 8 players, but how many singles and doubles are played, and on how many courts?

In my grass comp we have 4 singles and 2 dubs on 2 courts, so the normal thing is 1&2 singles play, then 3&4 singles, then both dubs after that. It's common but not mandatory that you would play a singles then a dubs each time.

So a team needs 4 players each time, but might have 5 or 6 players. Usually it's just the older players who play only dubs so they don't have to run so much.

We have best of three sets - third set is a 10 pt tiebreak. Our matches (Saturday) start at 1pm and usually finish 5.30 to 6 pm. I take it you use more courts too, and it's all over a lot quicker?

thanks

Well, everyone's answer will vary by district. Where I am, the USTA indoor league uses 8 players, fielding 2 singles courts and 3 doubles courts. It has to be 8 different players, too...we can't have a person do a singles and then one of the doubles matches. Usually all the matches are happening at the same time, but sometimes we do have split starts. The outdoor leagues uses 7 players, getting rid of one of the singles courts. Indoor is 90 minute timed matches, with the 10pt tiebreak in lieu of a third set. Outdoor is 2 hour timed matches, with a full 3rd set. We don't have a set time that we play...the matches are all over the place. And, they are usually all on hardcourts.

 

[Cindysphinx]

Cindy, we decided to up our rosters from 20 to 22 this year...and still we end up with some default issues. Hard to imagine that you can't round up 8 people for a match, out of 22!!!

Any team I have captained or played on has never 'gauranteed' a certain number of matches. Usually we may start out trying to do that, but it goes without saying that the less available people will get less matches. Also, people who practice regularly with the team will get more matches.

This Saturday, we play in the morning. A player just let me know she can't play. That makes 9 people unavailable on a team of 17, with 8 available to play the match. I hope no one gets sick.

Regarding the match guarantee, we tell players that we split playing time and match fees equally. When a player is scheduled to play a match and then can't for any reason, the player loses that match and I will find a sub. The sub gets her allotment of matches plus the extra match.

I've thought about dropping this match guarantee, but I've decided against it. I think having it avoids a lot of headache and drama. The minute people know they might play less than someone else, the backbiting, complaining, accusations of favoritism and maneuvering begin. I guess I figure everyone on the team did a try-out and was deemed Good Enough. If they're good enough to be on the team, they're good enough to play.

It's tough, though. The schedule for the last three matches looks like a Rubick's cube, what with me trying to give everyone their 5th match, work around unavailability, and still get partnerships that make sense. Not to mention how we would win way more if we played our better players more than the weaker ones . . . .

 

[tennis-n-sc]

After hearing some of this I am so glad I am where I am, so to speak. We just don't have the issues many of you seem to have. Our local league officers, elected by the players, go out of there way to make sure we get what we want and need to make league tennis fun. Adult men play their matches on Saturday between 9:00 A.M. and 5:00 P.M. Most home captains pick a late morning or early afternoon time. Senior men play on Sundays between 1 -5. Adult women play on Monday mornings at 9, a day and time voted on by the players prior to the season beginning. Senior women play on Thursday mornings. Women that work play in a separate league with matches on Sunday afternoons. It all seems to work. Women that can't make Monday mornings play in the Sunday league. Women that can't play on Monday's or Sunday's are banished from the state so the whining isn't as audible.

 

[tennisee]

Well, everyone's answer will vary by district. Where I am, the USTA indoor league uses 8 players, fielding 2 singles courts and 3 doubles courts. It has to be 8 different players, too...we can't have a person do a singles and then one of the doubles matches.

Thankyou Topaz - I find this very interesting. The only setup that I'm used to is the four singles two dubs; that seems to be the only one we have. (My daughter in her girls' comp has the same thing) So I imagine the dynamic is quite different; we score on rubbers then sets then games, so often one team has won three rubbers after the singles, and is just looking to pick up an extra set in the dubs to clinch it. If it's tight however, it all hangs on the doubles, which is good fun, as you get to try to win the match with your partner, perhaps having just dropped your singles etc.

 

[Cindysphinx]

Tennissee, we also do three doubles and two singles. We never ever have split starts, and all matches are timed 2-hour indoors, usually on hardcourts. Ten-point tiebreak in lieu of third set.

The designation "home team" and "away team" are almost meaningless here. The matches are held at facilities all over the county. Sometimes you get lucky and have a match near you, and sometimes you have to drive very far. The "home" team handles match administration: collecting the balls from the front desk, handling court assignments, declaring when play begins and ends.

Because no one has a home facility, teams can be quite far-flung. I have players from all four corners of the county, and this is a mighty big county. This year there are 22 3.0 ladies teams, 18 3.5 ladies teams, with men's divisions being half as large.

It sounds bizarre, but we have the security of knowing our matches will always happen where and when they should, without rain delay. The two hours are ours; you never have to wait for someone else to finish. Time penalties for being late are significant; you default if you are 10 minutes late.

When there is a problem (snow), the league cancels all matches and re-schedules them. Teams are not consulted about a convenient time for the re-scheduled match; you take what you get.

 

[Cindysphinx]

Thankyou Topaz - I find this very interesting. The only setup that I'm used to is the four singles two dubs; that seems to be the only one we have. (My daughter in her girls' comp has the same thing) So I imagine the dynamic is quite different; we score on rubbers then sets then games, so often one team has won three rubbers after the singles, and is just looking to pick up an extra set in the dubs to clinch it. If it's tight however, it all hangs on the doubles, which is good fun, as you get to try to win the match with your partner, perhaps having just dropped your singles etc.

Rubbers?

Around here, "rubbers" are condoms.

I wanna go play in Australia. Sounds like fun!

 

[tennisee]

Rubbers?

Around here, "rubbers" are condoms.

I wanna go play in Australia. Sounds like fun!

I did wonder about that Cindy (and did not want to pollute your thread with inappropriate language ) but what do you call them?

I can't imagine a Davis Cup tie described without the term; "The US took it from Spain with three hard-fought rubbers." etc.

(It's also used with reference to Bridge, and other card games)


Thanks for the info about your league, too Cindy. Reading the posts, all the stuff about rules, player behaviour, team dynamics etc is all quite familiar - but the mechanics of how the comp works in the US is not.


We mostly play harcourt here, but I play grass. There is morning and afternoon Sat grass comp for men and women. Mine is afternoon metro, so we play about 8 teams, all quite close (most within 10km) The thing is, I think you end up playing the same people year after year. (this is my first year, so not an issue). Each team comes from a club that has its own courts (except one that rents courts from another)

Oh - and I like snow being a problem. Ours is drought and water restrictions making it hard to keep the courts alive!

 

[lovin'it]

We did a vote a few years ago on our team to 'play to win' as opposed to an even rotation of games...where we are, there are many leagues where you play every week, and, my opinion, if you join a competitive league, you need to be competitive...and we are. We have this three work rule book..."play to win". Yes, we lost a few players back then, the lower players, but I am ok with that...no hard feelings. One thing I found, the more rules, the more people interpret them in different ways...then your rules are thrown back at you. SOme teams say if you don't make practice that week you don't play, what if your top player has a sick kid and can't make practice...are you really going to want to pull her for the game??? Heck, no! No one is guaranteed anything, although we really are a nice team. The top players (2 or 3) play every game, or at least every game they are available. I, somewhat off the record, kept track of 'pulls', as when I pulled a player (didn't play them although they were available) and 'self pulls' (when they pulled themself or weren't available by their own reason). This way I could somewhat balance out the back half of the team, at least in regard to MY pulling them, and this group did include myself. That way, I could support and not feel badly about a player getting only 5 of 10 games, when they themself weren't available for 3 of them, and I pulled myself out of 2, just like their 'captain induced pull'. It sounds easy to just play the top players, but there is not always alot of difference between some players...and people will sure remind you of beating a player considered better....yes, that IS why captains make the big bucks!!!