How many RG titles would each of Djokovic, Federer, or Thiem have without Nadal

martinezownsclay

Hall of Fame
Going through each.

First Djokovic. He has 2012, 2013, 2014, 2020 all on absolute lock without Nadal. So 6 minimum. Despite losing to Thiem in the 2019 semis it is very possible he wins without Nadal. It would obviously be a Thiem-Djokovic final guaranteed (no chance either lose to Federer, or anyone else who was in the draw this year), and in a final instead of a semi final, Djokovic is much more likely to win as Thiem has problems in finals, and the semi final was extremely close anyway. 2008 could have gone to either Federer or Djokovic, personally I think Djokovic. So 6 minimum, but quite possibly 7 or 8.

Now Federer. I am pretty sure he wins 2005, 2006, 2007 without Nadal, although the final with Puerta in 2005 probably would have been very close. He could win 2008, although that is a toss up at best with Djokovic. Probably wins 2011, although really here do we know. Just because Federer beat Djokovic in the semis does not mean it is the same result if they play another day in the finals. Djokovic was 4-1 vs Federer this year after all. No other years are even possabilities. So 6 max, but I suspect more likely 4 or 5.

Thiem now. He wins for sure in 2018. I don't think it is even a question. He has a good shot in both 2017 and 2019, but neither are certain. 2017 is a toss up between Warwinka and Thiem probably, and 2019 between Djokovic and Thiem. So I would say 2 or 3. He might also be more motivated for RG 2020 with no Nadal in the draw, but even so 2 or 3 is still the best guesstimate.

So between 6 to 8 for Djokovic, between 4 to 6 for Federer, and 2 to 3 for Thiem.
 

Third Serve

Talk Tennis Guru
Djokovic probably wins 2008 (debatable here), 2012, 2013, 2014, and 2020 without Nadal. So about 6-7 in total counting his wins in 2016 and 2021.

Federer probably wins 2005, 2006, 2007, and 2011 without Nadal in the way. Has a decent shot at 2008 too because I doubt he'd repeat that kind of a performance against anyone but Nadal. So about 5-6 in total counting his win in 2009.

Thiem takes 2018 and 2019. Not sure if he beats Stan for 2017 but I suppose it's possible. Stanimal didn't exactly show up in the final (though Nadal made him look worse than he was).

Soderling would nab 2010.

Such numbers look way too flattering for these folks given their actual clay court abilities, however, so it's best that Nadal did win most of those encounters because I think 1 and 2 RGs much more accurately reflect their levels on clay than 5, 6, or 7.
 
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Deleted member 780630

Guest
Federer 2005-07, 2011, 2019
Djokovic 2008, 2013, 2014, 2020
Delpo 2009, 2018
Soderling 2010
Tsonga 2012
Wawrinka 2015, 2017
Murray 2016
 

Third Serve

Talk Tennis Guru
Federer 2005-07, 2011, 2019
Djokovic 2008, 2013, 2014, 2020
Delpo 2009, 2018
Soderling 2010
Tsonga 2012
Wawrinka 2015, 2017
Murray 2016
I've got some big questions with this one.

How on Earth does Fed win 2019 even without Nadal in the way? His game had declined so much on the surface and I think any of the other semifinalists would have dispatched him without an awful lot of trouble. It was a minor miracle he even made it to the semis in the first place.

What makes you think Delpo would win 2009? He lost to Fed in the real match, didn't he?

Same deal with Tsonga in 2012 and Murray in 2016.

I just wanna hear your reasoning on that.
 

NoleIsBoat

Hall of Fame
I've got some big questions with this one.

How on Earth does Fed win 2019 even without Nadal in the way? His game had declined so much on the surface and I think any of the other semifinalists would have dispatched him without an awful lot of trouble. It was a minor miracle he even made it to the semis in the first place.

What makes you think Delpo would win 2009? He lost to Fed in the real match, didn't he?

Same deal with Tsonga in 2012 and Murray in 2016.

I just wanna hear your reasoning on that.
Federer played quite well in 2019 I thought . Was close to taking 1-2 sets from Nadal in the hurricane.
 
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Deleted member 780630

Guest
How on Earth does Fed win 2019 even without Nadal in the way? His game had declined so much on the surface and I think any of the other semifinalists would have dispatched him without an awful lot of trouble. It was a minor miracle he even made it to the semis in the first place
Field was pretty terrible. Nishikori wouldn't be a problem and Timmy just doesn't have what it takes. Plus he'd be gassed from the semi with Djokovic.
What makes you think Delpo would win 2009? He lost to Fed in the real match, didn't he?

Same deal with Tsonga in 2012 and Murray in 2016
I'm assuming they'd likely go in more loose after having already won the title previously. In those years, they had tight matches and had to be extra focused since they were chasing their first titles. Without that pressure I think they'd slip a bit which would allow those guys to win.
 

martinezownsclay

Hall of Fame
Federer played quite well in 2019 I thought . Was close to taking 1-2 sets from Nadal in the hurricane.

He played well, especialy considering his age, but if a time machine were invented, I would bet a **** ton of money, like $10, 000 for only a $10 return, he isn't winning that year, even without Nadal. Even if he somehow majorly lucks that that Djokovic and Nadal are both in the other half, and he somehow makes the final to play one of them, almost certain he loses to whichever he plays. He was already losing most of his matches to Thiem on hard courts by then, so he aint winning a best of 5 on clay, and I don't recall if he ever beat Djokovic on clay again after way back in 2011.

Granted that pick isn't as strange as the one who had Murray winning 2016 without Nadal, when he already lost easily to Djokovic in the final, and other strange picks from that strange person. And people think I am strange for not automatically assuming Thiem would beat Djokovic in the probable 2019 final, when he barely won in the semis, and is a famed finals choker.
 

Rafa4LifeEver

G.O.A.T.
Going through each.

First Djokovic. He has 2012, 2013, 2014, 2020 all on absolute lock without Nadal. So 6 minimum. Despite losing to Thiem in the 2019 semis it is very possible he wins without Nadal. It would obviously be a Thiem-Djokovic final guaranteed (no chance either lose to Federer, or anyone else who was in the draw this year), and in a final instead of a semi final, Djokovic is much more likely to win as Thiem has problems in finals, and the semi final was extremely close anyway. 2008 could have gone to either Federer or Djokovic, personally I think Djokovic. So 6 minimum, but quite possibly 7 or 8.

Now Federer. I am pretty sure he wins 2005, 2006, 2007 without Nadal, although the final with Puerta in 2005 probably would have been very close. He could win 2008, although that is a toss up at best with Djokovic. Probably wins 2011, although really here do we know. Just because Federer beat Djokovic in the semis does not mean it is the same result if they play another day in the finals. Djokovic was 4-1 vs Federer this year after all. No other years are even possabilities. So 6 max, but I suspect more likely 4 or 5.

Thiem now. He wins for sure in 2018. I don't think it is even a question. He has a good shot in both 2017 and 2019, but neither are certain. 2017 is a toss up between Warwinka and Thiem probably, and 2019 between Djokovic and Thiem. So I would say 2 or 3. He might also be more motivated for RG 2020 with no Nadal in the draw, but even so 2 or 3 is still the best guesstimate.

So between 6 to 8 for Djokovic, between 4 to 6 for Federer, and 2 to 3 for Thiem.
Fed :- 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, (50-50), 2009, 2011, 2019(50-50)
Djokovic :- 2008(50-50), 2012, 2013, 2014, 2016, 2020, 2021
Thiem :- 2017 (50-50), 2018 (50-50), 2019 (50-50)
Delpo :- 2018 (50-50)
Wawrinka :- 2015, 2017 (50-50)

So Fed wins around 5 to 7 RGs with no Rafa
Nole wins 6-7 RGs with no rafa
Thiem wins 0-3 RGs without rafa
Delpo wins 0-1 without Rafa
Wawrinka wins 1-2.
 

Rafa4LifeEver

G.O.A.T.
He played well, especialy considering his age, but if a time machine were invented, I would bet a **** ton of money, like $10, 000 for only a $10 return, he isn't winning that year, even without Nadal. Even if he somehow majorly lucks that that Djokovic and Nadal are both in the other half, and he somehow makes the final to play one of them, almost certain he loses to whichever he plays. He was already losing most of his matches to Thiem on hard courts by then, so he aint winning a best of 5 on clay, and I don't recall if he ever beat Djokovic on clay again after way back in 2011.

Granted that pick isn't as strange as the one who had Murray winning 2016 without Nadal, when he already lost easily to Djokovic in the final, and other strange picks from that strange person. And people think I am strange for not automatically assuming Thiem would beat Djokovic in the probable 2019 final, when he barely won in the semis, and is a famed finals choker.
Fed lost one tight HC match against Thiem in what was the Austrian's best final performance till date, not multiple matches to him on HC. On clay after a month, fed held match points for a straight sets win against Thiem. And looking at Thiem's finals record, I'd not give him more than 50% chance in a slam final vs an ATG big3 like roger, even though the swiss's clay game has declined too much.

And roger did beat nole, the reigning and upcoming MC champ in 2014 MC SF.

Nole fans need to come back to earth, gentleman.
 

Mediterranean Might

Professional
Is is not our fault that our guy has made it past the sun and is now exploring the black hole at the center of the galaxy. That's how insane Djokovic's 2021 season is.
You were the main Sinner propagandist just a couple of months ago. Back to basking in Novak's inevitability instead now that he's winning and Sinner lost some steam huh :whistle:
 

Rafa4LifeEver

G.O.A.T.
I am not even a Djokovic fan. It is just stupid to think Federer was ever winning RG 2019 when it is super obvious he loses to both Thiem and Djokovic easily, and he probably has to play both. Even if he somehow only has to play 1, still super unlikely. You are just really dumb I guess. It is annoying to talk to non intelligent people.

You're for sure getting reported for this due to personal insult & abuse, gentleman.

No matter what differentiation we have with regards to opinions, one should never cross the limits of decency in a conversation. And by the tone of your posts, I'm fully assured now that you're not a new poster, there is a very huge possibility that you're an incarnation of some old poster, sir/ma'am.
 

vex

Legend
I've got some big questions with this one.

How on Earth does Fed win 2019 even without Nadal in the way? His game had declined so much on the surface and I think any of the other semifinalists would have dispatched him without an awful lot of trouble. It was a minor miracle he even made it to the semis in the first place.

What makes you think Delpo would win 2009? He lost to Fed in the real match, didn't he?

Same deal with Tsonga in 2012 and Murray in 2016.

I just wanna hear your reasoning on that.
Fed was not winning RG in 2019 holy **** hahaha

As you said, any of the other Semifinalists would have shown him to the door
 

martinezownsclay

Hall of Fame
Fed was not winning RG in 2019 holy **** hahaha

Yeah I am stunned as heck there are some really weird people in this thread coming up with that lunacy. Literally you could argue there is a better chance he wins in 2010 with a rearranged draw, which I think is possible despite losing to Soderling in the quarters in real time, than ever winning 2019.

And someone criticized me for saying Djokovic could possibly win in 2019 simply since he barely lost to Thiem in the semis, when they would likely be playing in the finals instead now where Djokovic is even more likely to win. Yet saying FEDERER was a high probable win that year, LMFAO!!!!!
 
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Deleted member 783101

Guest
You were the main Sinner propagandist just a couple of months ago. Back to basking in Novak's inevitability instead now that he's winning and Sinner lost some steam huh :whistle:
Yea lol,so what? I was always an Ultronian, do you know name I had before Nuclear Warhead Sinner? Djokovic has been an inevitability since his 2011 season which showed he is well above the tour in terms of mental strength, so yea I've been basking into that for a while now.

I'm Italian so my opinion on Sinner was heavily biased. Sinner had a stratospheric progression, but what made him go from nobody to top 20 will not get him much further. I was always vocal about the things he needed to improve, maybe you should check the messages in the "official" Sinner thread.
This year made me realize he's just not gonna improve them fast, and may never improve them at all.

Hence my rebirth: https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/witness-the-rebirth.699339/
 

vex

Legend
Yea lol,so what? I was always an Ultronian, do you know name I had before Nuclear Warhead Sinner? Djokovic has been an inevitability since his 2011 season which showed he is well above the tour in terms of mental strength, so yea I've been basking into that for a while now.

I'm Italian so my opinion on Sinner was heavily biased. Sinner had a stratospheric progression, but what made him go from nobody to top 20 will not get him much further. I was always vocal about the things he needed to improve, maybe you should check the messages in the "official" Sinner thread.
This year made me realize he's just not gonna improve them fast, and may never improve them at all.

Hence my rebirth: https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/witness-the-rebirth.699339/
Hold up, the kid is what 18?!?!? Let’s see where he’s at when he’s 21 at least before we close any doors. Progression doesn’t happen overnight and there are PLENTY examples of top players focusing on deficiencies and improving them. Sinner has most of the hard parts down. Now he needs to work on some specific stuff to take the next step.
 
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Deleted member 783101

Guest
Hold up, the kid is what 18?!?!? Let’s see where he’s at when he’s 21 at least before we close any doors. Progression doesn’t happen overnight and there are PLENTY examples of top players focusing on deficiencies and improving them. Sinner has most of the hard parts down. Now he needs to work on some specific stuff to take the next step.
Yea and that specific stuff happens to be very very nontrivial to learn. His mental strength and composure are both myths by the way. There's a difference between thinking clearly during moments of pressure and not thinking at all. So he'll have to work on that too. I may get back on the hype train once he displays signs of wanting to do something other than ball bashing like a bot.

Good luck to him, and may he have an amazing career. :cool: (y)
 

T007

Hall of Fame
I've got some big questions with this one.

How on Earth does Fed win 2019 even without Nadal in the way? His game had declined so much on the surface and I think any of the other semifinalists would have dispatched him without an awful lot of trouble. It was a minor miracle he even made it to the semis in the first place.

What makes you think Delpo would win 2009? He lost to Fed in the real match, didn't he?

Same deal with Tsonga in 2012 and Murray in 2016.

I just wanna hear your reasoning on that.
Federers 2019 was the best i have seen on that surface from his 2011-12 years. He could have atleast forced a tight 4 setter if not for those windy conditions on that day.
 

ForehandCross

G.O.A.T.
Thiem barely won in the semis, and now they are playing in the finals, where Thiem is a renowned and infamous choker. Yes of course it is a toss up.

Lol, I swear you people are getting ahead of yourself.

Thiem was no. 4 seed, he would become #3 without Nadal and still probably meets #1 Djokovic in SF. How does it become a given that they will meet in final? Also Thiem is 5-2 against Djokovic in last 7 matches and 2-1 in last 3 GS matches with Djokovic's sole victory being a subject to a 5 setter which Thiem should have won, and that was on Djokovic's home turf of AO.
 

martinezownsclay

Hall of Fame
Lol, I swear you people are getting ahead of yourself.

Thiem was no. 4 seed, he would become #3 without Nadal and still probably meets #1 Djokovic in SF. How does it become a given that they will meet in final? Also Thiem is 5-2 against Djokovic in last 7 matches and 2-1 in last 3 GS matches with Djokovic's sole victory being a subject to a 5 setter which Thiem should have won, and that was on Djokovic's home turf of AO.

Pretty sure without Nadal around, Thiem would be sweeping up the clay points to the point he would already be ranked #2 over Federer, who was playing a limited schedule by then. I guess we will never know. The one thing I am sure of is the winner is either Thiem or Djokovic, I guess more likely Thiem since he both would still have a chance if they were #1 and #2 seeds which means they automatically play in the finals, and if they do play in the semis it presumably be the same result. Either way no way in hell was Federer winning that year as some people in this thread seem to think, which shocks me. I could see Federer winning in 2010 with a rearranged draw despite losing to Soderling, than ever in 2019.
 

Sunny014

Legend
Funny to see people give 2008 FO to Djokovic when Djokovic has nothing to show on clay that year, he was an absolute nobody, a total loser on that surface losing twice to nadal and once to federer.

A fluke AO win in a mono period doesn't making him the french open in 08 against the reigning world number 1.
 

Sunny014

Legend
Federer - 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2011 and possibly 2019
Djokovic - 2012, 2013, 2014, 2016, 2020 and 2021
Thiem - 2018 and Possibly 2019
Stanimal - 2015 and 2017

Federer : 6-7
Djokovic : 6
Thiem : 1-2
Stanimal : 2 for sure.
 

mehdimike

Hall of Fame
Funny to see people give 2008 FO to Djokovic when Djokovic has nothing to show on clay that year, he was an absolute nobody, a total loser on that surface losing twice to nadal and once to federer.

A fluke AO win in a mono period doesn't making him the french open in 08 against the reigning world number 1.
And I think against Novak he would not havr approached to net every other point to try to be creative or disrupt Rafa's game or whatever reason he had in his mind.
Also even if he had approached the net he would have won more points again Nole than against Rafa for sure.
 

MadariKatu

Hall of Fame
I just think the most amazing stat here is that Fed would have had at least a double CYGS in a row if Nadal wasn't around
That'd be 11 slams in a row from RG 2005 to USO 2007, and would make a run of 19 slams out of 21, with losses in the AO to Djokovic in 2008 and to Safin in 2005, for a total of 21* slams by the time he meets Delpo in the 2009 USO. That makes 7 consecutive wimbledons, 5 consecutive RG*, and 5 consecutive USO. If nothing changes, he'd retire after losing to Delpo with quite some records for posterity.

*Given he beats Djokovic in the 2008 RG, and doped Puerta in the 2005 RG.
 

Sunny014

Legend
And I think against Novak he would not havr approached to net every other point to try to be creative or disrupt Rafa's game or whatever reason he had in his mind.
Also even if he had approached the net he would have won more points again Nole than against Rafa for sure.

Right.
Roger vs Rafa have been in many legendary battles in the 00s and people think Novak could deliver that, Rafa was a great player at least 6 years before Novak Djokovic, people often forget that when they assume that Novak would be any match to Roger.

Total joke ..... Giving him the 2008 french open....The level of Rafa was sky high and thats why Roger looked so clueless, otherwise he was still good enough to steamroll everyone even on clay
 
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