How many Slams would Tsonga win today?

[TheFifthSet]

Nope don't agree

Everything Tsonga does tsitsipas has matched.

You forget he took out fed in AO 19 when fed was playing very good. 10/10 bp saved

That Federer is closer to ‘08 AO Nadal (whom Tsonga crushed) than Wimbledon ‘11 Federer.

Tsonga has better wins and better near-wins.

 

[RS]

Tsonga AO 08 SF was better than any Canelo Alvarez.

 

[nolefam_2024]

That Federer is closer to ‘08 AO Nadal (whom Tsonga crushed) than Wimbledon ‘11 Federer.

Tsonga has better wins and better near-wins.

Not even remotely true. 2019 Fed was very good. Between 2018 indoors till 2019 indoors he played some of his best tennis, including 3 hr war vs Djokovic in Paris, IW final and Dubai, Miami, Shanghai?, Basel titles. He would crush Nadal 2008 just like Tsonga did.

In fact 2019 Fed would likely beat Tsonga as well but Tsonga can beat him just like Tsitsipas did. It was marvellous.

 

[TheFifthSet]

Not even remotely true. 2019 Fed was very good. Between 2018 indoors till 2019 indoors he played some of his best tennis, including 3 hr war vs Djokovic in Paris, IW final and Dubai, Miami, Shanghai?, Basel titles. He would crush Nadal 2008 just like Tsonga did.

No, very true lol. Federer was hit and miss in BO5 in the later stages of his career and played a poor match. Believe it was the first time in over 15 years he didn’t break in a slam match

Hell I’d put Tsonga taking ‘13 Fed (before the injury) to 5 at the AO over what Tsitdipas did against a meek Fed.

“Some of his best tennis,” can’t be serious there man. We’re talking about Federer here.

In fact 2019 Fed would likely beat Tsonga as well but Tsonga can beat him just like Tsitsipas did. It was marvellous.

Lol ok.

 

[nolefam_2024]

No, very true lol. Federer was very hit and miss in BO5 over the latter stages of his career and played a poor match. Believe it was the first time in over 15 years he went a grand slam match without notching a break.

Hell I’d put Tsonga taking ‘13 Fed (before the injury) to 5 at the AO over what Tsitdipas did against a meek Fed.

“Some of his best tennis,” can’t be serious there man. We’re talking about Federer here.





Lol ok.

Fed was playing amazing securing 10 break points. Tsitsipas was playing at very high level himself.
Tsonga matched up vs Nadal very well but vs Fed he would match up just like Tsitsi did.

 

[TheFifthSet]

Fed was playing amazing securing 10 break points. Tsitsipas was playing at very high level himself.
Tsonga matched up vs Nadal very well but vs Fed he would match up just like Tsitsi did.

Amazing if the bar is Andrea Seppi’s median level. For Roger Federer, it was not an amazing match.

2008 Tsonga’s AO campaign was “amazing,” had a better top win and went down more valiantly than Tsitsipas did, against a better opponent.

 

[nolefam_2024]

Amazing if the bar is Andrea Seppi’s median level. For Roger Federer, it was not an amazing match.

2008 Tsonga’s AO campaign was “amazing,” had a better top win and went down more valiantly than Tsitsipas did, against a better opponent.

Tsitsipas is just modern Tsonga. Seppi is 2015.

Let's ask @Waspsting to map out 2019 match between Federer and Tsitsipas.

 

[GloW]

1000000000000 slams for Tsonga

 

[TheFifthSet]

Tsitsipas is just modern Tsonga.

If Tsitsipas could do what Tsonga did at ‘08 AO, ‘08 Paris, ‘11 Wimby and ‘14 Canada, he’d gain a fan in me.

 

[nolefam_2024]

If Tsitsipas could do what Tsonga did at ‘08 AO, ‘08 Paris, ‘11 Wimby and ‘14 Canada, he’d gain a fan in me.

He already did so in RG 2021, ATP finals 2019, MC 2024.

 

[TheGoldenEra1990’s]

Who knows when you got mugs like Fritz Draper and tiafoe having deep slam runs. We are one major sinner injury away from worthless players with not much talent being multiple slam champions

 

[mike danny]

First of all, you are proposing the wrong topic. The real compelling question is: how many slams would Berdych win. Everyone in this forum can't literally get enough about Berdych, it seems.
Re. your question I think 0/1. He wouldn't beat djokovic in 2020-2023, and wouldn't beat Sinner or Alcaraz in 2024. He would have big problems against Medvedev too. But who knows? Over his entire career maybe he could snatch one.

Why not?

 

[TheFifthSet]

He already did

In ‘08 Paris he beat Roddick, Djokovic, Blake and a rampaging Nalby (who, at that point, was a Top 5 indoor player). Better than any tournament Tsitsipas has won.

At ‘14 Canada he beat Djokovic, Murray, Dimitrov and Federer. Also better.

In ‘08 AO he beat Murray and Nadal (in one of the most impressive single-match performances ever), then took Djokovic to a 4th set TB in one of his best AO’s.

At Wimby ‘11, he played three of the most faultless sets you’ll see on grass. Federer barely stepped a foot wrong from sets 3-5, and still lost.

so in RG 2021,

Meh. Tsonga had match points at RG against prime Djokovic.

ATP finals 2019,

Good showing, not as good as either Masters win I mentioned, and Tsonga’s ‘11 WTF was just as good.

MC 2024.

Probably Tsitsi’s best ever win.

 

[nolefam_2024]

In ‘08 Paris he beat Roddick, Djokovic, Blake and a rampaging Nalby (who, at that point, was a Top 5 indoor player). Better than any tournament Tsitsipas has won.

At ‘14 Canada he beat Djokovic, Murray, Dimitrov and Federer. Also better.

In ‘08 AO he beat Murray and Nadal (in one of the most impressive single-match performances ever), then took Djokovic to a 4th set TB in one of his best AO’s.

At Wimby ‘11, he played three of the most faultless sets you’ll see on grass. Federer barely stepped a foot wrong from sets 3-5, and still lost.


Meh. Tsonga had match points at RG against prime Djokovic.




Good showing, not as good as either Masters win I mentioned, and Tsonga’s ‘11 WTF was just as good.



Probably Tsitsi’s best ever win.

Dude who counts blake.

nalby is worse than even zverev while roddick is worse than medvedev

paris is when most players are tired.

 

[sportsfan1]

With his BH as a liability, zero.
Maybe he could reach another slam final?

Does anyone recall tsonga having match points at rg against peak novak? Or coming back from 0-2 sets to beat fed at wimby? Inspite of whatever weaknesses he had, he could become unbeatable in matches when he hit peak form and rhythm. Big serve and punishing fh. Sort of like jmdp. Could also play at the net.

In the current era, tsitsipas made multiple rg finals and novaks winning on one good knee. I would give tsonga, berdych and soderling multiple slams, at least until sincaraz show they can solidify and lock at the top.

 

[NatF]

In ‘08 Paris he beat Roddick, Djokovic, Blake and a rampaging Nalby (who, at that point, was a Top 5 indoor player). Better than any tournament Tsitsipas has won.

At ‘14 Canada he beat Djokovic, Murray, Dimitrov and Federer. Also better.

In ‘08 AO he beat Murray and Nadal (in one of the most impressive single-match performances ever), then took Djokovic to a 4th set TB in one of his best AO’s.

At Wimby ‘11, he played three of the most faultless sets you’ll see on grass. Federer barely stepped a foot wrong from sets 3-5, and still lost.


Meh. Tsonga had match points at RG against prime Djokovic.




Good showing, not as good as either Masters win I mentioned, and Tsonga’s ‘11 WTF was just as good.



Probably Tsitsi’s best ever win.

You realise you're arguing with a fool right?

 

[TheFifthSet]

Dude who counts blake.

nalby is worse than even zverev while roddick is worse than medvedev

paris is when most players are tired.

Nalbandian was fresh off winning Madrid-Paris the previous year, beating peak Federer (2x), Nadal (2x), Djokovic, Ferrer and Berdych over those two tournaments. In ‘08 he won Stockholm, made the final of Basel (losing to Federer), then made the Paris final beating Davy, Delpo and Murray.

He was a fantastic indoor player, easily Top 5 in those settings by then. Before that he beat Djokovic, Roddick and Blake.

You can dismiss that win, but then you’re dismissing any tournament Tsitsi has ever won himself, by extension, because he’s never done better than that.

 

[NYTennisfan]

I was a Tsonga fan but none if we're considering the new era to coincide with the rise of Alcaraz from 2022 on, who would he have beaten of this new Big 3 over the last 2 years? It's been the same 3 guys winning slams and if you want to go further, the same 4 guys (Nadal in 2022) outside of the Medvedev one-off in 2021. I don't see Tsonga beating any of these guys or even getting to many finals.
I'd consider Tsonga to be a Zverev level player (probably a slightly lesser version of Z) but with more flair, good but not quite good enough.

 

[nolefam_2024]

Nalbandian was fresh off winning Madrid-Paris the previous year, beating peak Federer (2x), Nadal (2x), Djokovic, Ferrer and Berdych over those two tournaments. In ‘08 he won Stockholm, made the final of Basel (losing to Federer), then made the Paris final beating Davy, Delpo and Murray.

He was a fantastic indoor player, easily Top 5 in those settings by then. Before that he beat Djokovic, Roddick and Blake.

You can dismiss that win, but then you’re dismissing any tournament Tsitsi has ever won himself, by extension, because he’s never done better than that.

And 2021 is Zverev's best year winning atp finals , olympics and 4 more titles.
Again this proved nothing. Tsitsi beat him in RG semis.

 

[nolefam_2024]

Nalbandian titles won - 11

Zverev titles won - 22 already

 

[TheFifthSet]

And 2021 is Zverev's best year winning atp finals , olympics and 4 more titles.

This has nothing to do with my contention that the 2008 Paris win is better than any tournament Tsitsipas ever had. Nalbandian, historically a very good indoor player, was in amazing form indoors. Tsonga beat this in-form player, to go along with wins over Roddick, Blake and Djokovic (that year’s Year End title-winner).

Again this proved nothing. Tsitsi beat him in RG semis.

And Tsonga had MP’s against prime Djokovic, on his worst surface.

 

[TheFifthSet]

Nalbandian titles won - 11

Zverev titles won - 22 already

At best only vaguely related to the discussion.

Tsitsipas has some good wins, yes.

Tsonga has better ones.

 

[nolefam_2024]

At best only vaguely related to the discussion.

Tsitsipas has some good wins, yes.

Tsonga has better ones.

I don't think Tsonga is having any better win than Tsitsipas.
In any case, Tsitsipas has 0 slams and Tsonga has 0.
These are never going to be 3+ slam winners. Maybe Tsonga gets lucky if I switch eras and eek out 1. That is because of COVID then.

 

[TheFifthSet]

I don't think Tsonga is having any better win than Tsitsipas.

I do.

Paris 2008, Canada 2014 are better as far as tournament wins are concerned.

Individual wins? Even less of an argument for Philostsipas.

In any case, Tsitsipas has 0 slams and Tsonga has 0.

You’re the one that originally compared them.

Yeah, Tsonga has 0 slams. Tsonga’s prime also overlapped almost entirely with one of the most top-heavy and gatekeeper-unfriendly periods in tennis history. These things, put simply, are connected.

 

[AO13]

0

 

[nolefam_2024]

I do.

Paris 2008, Canada 2014 are better as far as tournament wins are concerned.

Individual wins? Even less of an argument for Philostsipas.



You’re the one that originally compared them.

Yeah, Tsonga has 0 slams. Tsonga’s prime also overlapped almost entirely with one of the most top-heavy and gatekeeper-unfriendly periods in tennis history. These things, put simply, are connected.

I am still comparing them. its no crime that Tsonga never won a slam, Tsitsipas can't in today's tennis as well.
Both had bad backhand and bad returns but pretty good fh serve net coverage.

They are very similar.

 

[TheFifthSet]

I am still comparing them.

Cool, but I’m responding to your comment that they both have 0 slams. This implies we shouldn’t sweat the small stuff. As you initially compared them, me pointing out Tsonga has had better wins (and less damning losses) is fair game.

its no crime that Tsonga never won a slam,

Please point out where I said anything of the sort.

It’s not a crime, sure. But Tsonga had extremely difficult competition in his way, preventing him from winning a slams in good form. Tsitsipas, for the most part, has not.

Tsitsipas can't in today's tennis as well.
Both had bad backhand and bad returns but pretty good fh serve net coverage.

They are very similar.

Tsonga had a much better serve, a better forehand at their peaks and a much more daring/bigger game and mentality. All of which enabled him to have better real-world performances.

 

[nolefam_2024]

Cool, but I’m responding to your comment that they both have 0 slams. This implies we shouldn’t sweat the small stuff. As you initially compared them, me pointing out Tsonga has had better wins (and less damning losses) is fair game.




Please point out where I said anything of the sort.

It’s not a crime, sure. But Tsonga had extremely difficult competition in his way, preventing him from winning a slams in good form. Tsitsipas, for the most part, has not.




Tsonga had a much better serve, a better forehand at their peaks and a much more daring/bigger game and mentality. All of which enabled him to have better real-world performances.

Wrong again
Tsonga much better serve Tsitsipas much better fh

 

[TheFifthSet]

Wrong gain
Tsonga much better serve Tsitsipas much better fh

Not really. Tsitsi’s forehand is more consistent against the lower rungs of competition, and on clay (where, let’s be honest, he ain’t winning jack from 2008-2014). Outdoor HC and grass not so much, indoor HC it’s a wash at worst for Tsonga.

I’m not arguing Tsonga is some titan here, but he’s done the bare minimum to be considered better than Tsitsipas at this point, that’s for sure.

 

[nolefam_2024]

Not really. Tsitsi’s forehand is more consistent against the lower rungs of competition, and on clay (where, let’s be honest, he’s winning jack from 2008-2014). Outdoor HC and grass not so much, indoor HC it’s a wash at worst for Tsonga.

Nope
Tsitsipas has beaten Nadal in AO 2021 and reached AO finals in 2023. His forehand works incredibly well on hard courts.

Tsitsipas doesn't play more vs lower rung than Tsonga either. Both play very similar number of matches vs top 1/ top 5 / top 10

Ultimate Tennis Statistics - Stefanos Tsitsipas

Stefanos Tsitsipas profile at Ultimate Tennis Statistics

www.ultimatetennisstatistics.com

Ultimate Tennis Statistics - Jo Wilfried Tsonga

Jo Wilfried Tsonga profile at Ultimate Tennis Statistics

www.ultimatetennisstatistics.com

 

[RS]

Better jab Muhammad Ali or Lennox Lewis?

 

[CHillTennis]

He would win as many slams as Sinner.

 

[TheFifthSet]

Nope

Yup.

Tsitsipas has beaten Nadal in AO 2021 and reached AO finals in 2023. His forehand works incredibly well on hard courts.

He has one tournament victory on outdoor HC, and it’s a 250.

That should end the convo. At least Tsonga has the excuse of being ****-blocked by the strongest Top 3-5 in Open Era history. Tsitsipas, even in a transitional era, could only manage one win on the most common surface in tennis.

On to the tournaments in question: he beat Ymer, Kok (in 4.5 hours) and Simon to reach Nadal in ‘21. After that he went down fecklessly to Med, in barely over two hours.

‘08 AO power-bombs anything Tsitsipas did in ‘21 or ‘23 AO. Hell ‘10 AO and ‘13 AO were about as good.

Tsitsipas doesn't play more vs lower rung than Tsonga either. Both play very similar number of matches vs top 1/ top 5 / top 10

Ultimate Tennis Statistics - Stefanos Tsitsipas

Stefanos Tsitsipas profile at Ultimate Tennis Statistics

www.ultimatetennisstatistics.com

Ultimate Tennis Statistics - Jo Wilfried Tsonga

Jo Wilfried Tsonga profile at Ultimate Tennis Statistics

www.ultimatetennisstatistics.com

What I said was that Tsitsi’s forehand may be more consistent against weaker competition. That’s a point in his favour.

However, it hasn’t translated in an overall level that tops anything that matches much less tops what Tsonga did in Paris ‘08, Canada ‘14 and multiple Grand Slam tournaments.

At their peaks, against good competition, Tsonga had the better serve, better fh and was mentally tougher. He was a better player despite superficially similar attributes and resumes.

 

[nolefam_2024]

Yup.


He has one tournament victory on outdoor HC, and it’s a 250.

That should end the convo.

On to the tournaments in question: he beat Ymer, Kok (in 4.5 hours) and Simon to reach Nadal in ‘21. After that he went down fecklessly to Med, in barely over two hours.

‘08 AO power-bombs anything Tsitsipas did in ‘21 or ‘23 AO. Hell ‘10 AO and ‘13 AO were about as good.





What I said was that Tsitsi’s forehand may be more consistent against weaker competition. That’s a point in his favour.

However, it hasn’t translated in an overall level that tops anything that matches much less tops what Tsonga did in Paris ‘08, Canada ‘14 and multiple Grand Slam tournaments.

At their peaks, against good competition, Tsonga had the better serve, better fh and was mentally tougher. He was a better player despite superficially similar attributes and resumes.

Tsonga has 1 big titles on hc which is outdoors.
All his wins are 250s outdoors in France. He has over saturated title wins due to host country status.

Just like Roddick has huge number of 250s in USA.

 

[nolefam_2024]

Tsitsipas is same age today as Tsonga was in 2011. He is that young and already as accomplished as Tsonga.

 

[Rosstour]

Tsonga, Berdych and even Murray became who they were because of the Big 3 whom they played from early years.... If you take that away from them and make them grow up in today's era then they would also become some sort of mugs or at least much worse than they were in their time.... In no era is Sir Andy Murray an ATG.

Teleportation does not work, if it did I still don't see how Tsonga can win more than 1-2 slams.

Murray is ATG sir

11 Slam Finals, only going down to B3 no? And beating Djoko for 2/3 Slam trophies? He might even be the fourth best player in history if we assume the B3 are the 3 best

 

[Aabye5]

I will count Nole vs Tsonga

He screwed up 1 time in AO 2009. That's too low.

Djokovic vs Tsonga in slams
AO 2008 - Djokovic DOWNS him in 4
AO 2010 - Djokovic loses in five (after being 2 sets to 1 up, physically broken down)
Wimbledon 2011 - Djokovic DOWNS him in 4
RG 2012 - Djokovic DOWNS him in 5
RG 2014 - Djokovic DOWNS him in 3
Wimby 2014 - Djokovic DOWNS him in 3
USO 2016 - Djokovic DOWNS him in 2
AO 2019 - Djokovic DOWNS him in 3

Djokovic destroyed Tsonga's dreams of ever winning a slam. That 1 time Tsonga beat him was during Djokovic's lowest moment.

Nadal lost 1 match vs Tsonga when Nadal was barely a threat on HC

Fed lost 1 match after being 2 sets up.

None of the big 3 ever got really threatened by Tsonga. I accepted that when in 2013 Tsonga took Fed to five and I thought Fed would be dusted in AO 2014 , but Fed came up with 98 SQ Inch racket and actually washed Tsonga easily.

Andy Murray and Wawrinka are below big 3 and Below Sineraz level players. They are not ATG so Tsonga's wins over them are far less valued than over big 3.

Andy Murray is not a level below Sinner-Alcaraz yet. They are still having difficulty beating Djokovic, when Murray and Wawrinka were able to beat him in his prime years.

The fact that Fed WAS up 2 sets goes in Tsonga's favor. And these aren't meaningless 250 matches.

 

[TheFifthSet]

Tsonga has 1 big titles on hc which is outdoors.
All his wins are 250s outdoors in France. He has over saturated title wins due to host country status.

Tsitsipas doesn’t even have that, against decidedly weaker competition. Tsonga won four outdoor HC tournaments, one of which was among the more memorable Masters wins, where he beat Murray, Djokovic, Dimitrov and Federer.

Tsonga is the better outdoor HC player at the 500, 1000 and Slam level…that much has been established when comparing their bodies of work. Tsitsipas has time to catch up, but to date his peak is not there with Tsonga’s.

Just like Roddick has huge number of 250s in USA.

Relevant how?

 

[TheFifthSet]

Tsitsipas is same age today as Tsonga was in 2011. He is that young and already as accomplished as Tsonga.

Not having to face Fed, Nadal, Djokovic and Murray at or near their primes will do that.

 

[nolefam_2024]

Andy Murray is not a level below Sinner-Alcaraz yet. They are still having difficulty beating Djokovic, when Murray and Wawrinka were able to beat him in his prime years.

The fact that Fed WAS up 2 sets goes in Tsonga's favor. And these aren't meaningless 250 matches.

What do you mean when you say STILL having difficulty?

Murray turned 23 in May 2010 just like Sinner today.
And he turned 21 in May 2008 just like Alcaraz today.

These guys are super young compared to Murray and they dominate. They just dominate tennis.

Sinner's worst loss this year is to Tsitsipas who was near top 10.

Tennis Abstract: Jannik Sinner Match Results, Splits, and Analysis

These are Murray's losses in same age

Tennis Abstract: Andy Murray Match Results, Splits, and Analysis

You can't make any excuse of big 3 in this case. Which is what everyone does. Make excuses for big 3 era gen's failures.

Sinner is going to make Andy look like an amateur. And Sinner himself is a late bloomer even by 2000s standards. Let us forget Alcaraz who is probably going to be youngest career slam winner ever.

 

[nolefam_2024]

Tsitsipas doesn’t even have that, against decidedly weaker competition. Tsonga won four outdoor HC tournaments, one of which was among the more memorable Masters wins, where he beat Murray, Djokovic, Dimitrov and Federer.

Tsonga is the better outdoor HC player at the 500, 1000 and Slam level…that much has been established when comparing their bodies of work. Tsitsipas has time to catch up, but to date his peak is not there with Tsonga’s.




Relevant how?

What does outdoor have to do with this ? Is indoor hard not hard court or are you Nadal fan?

You found a formula to remove so many of Tsitsipas's wins on Indoor hard away. He won freaking ATP finals beating 4 top 8 players.

 

[TheFifthSet]

You can't make any excuse of big 3 in this case. Which is what everyone does. Make excuses for big 3 era gen's failures.

It’s basic root-cause analysis.

When comparing Tsitispas with Tsonga, you’re plugging up your ears by not acknowledging one had a much easier path than the other.

Sinner is going to make Andy look like an amateur. And Sinner himself is a late bloomer even by 2000s standards. Let us forget Alcaraz who is probably going to be youngest career slam winner ever.

Future Sinner and Future Alcaraz might “make Murray look like an amateur.”

Nothing either of them have done so far has achieved that, though.

What they do in the future is irrelevant here. Totally, utterly irrelevant.

 

[Aabye5]

What do you mean when you say STILL having difficulty?

Murray turned 23 in May 2010 just like Sinner today.
And he turned 21 in May 2008 just like Alcaraz today.

These guys are super young compared to Murray and they dominate. They just dominate tennis.

Sinner's worst loss this year is to Tsitsipas who was near top 10.

Tennis Abstract: Jannik Sinner Match Results, Splits, and Analysis

These are Murray's losses in same age

Tennis Abstract: Andy Murray Match Results, Splits, and Analysis

You can't make any excuse of big 3 in this case. Which is what everyone does. Make excuses for big 3 era gen's failures.

Sinner is going to make Andy look like an amateur. And Sinner himself is a late bloomer even by 2000s standards. Let us forget Alcaraz who is probably going to be youngest career slam winner ever.

It's not as simple as wins/losses. Sinner is facing an older Djokovic than the one Murray faced.

 

[nolefam_2024]

It's not as simple as wins/losses. Sinner is facing an older Djokovic than the one Murray faced.

Rubbish

Older nothing. Djokovic last year would have beaten Andy in 3 out of 4 slams. Only grass where Djokovic anyway lost to Alcaraz is different and that is Murray at his best which is what 2 years? Maybe 3?

Raz is 21 at his age Murray was barely reaching a slam final. Even despite British dominance in tennis and so many wild cards he got in early days.
In the end, you can't replace talent.

 

[nolefam_2024]

None of the Murray Berdych Tsongas of those days dominated. They couldn't. Big 3 is just a crutch now for their failures.

Murray himself is far more successful than rest of the players of that generation so he deserves a lot of respect but even he lacked talent to be ATG

 

[TheFifthSet]

What does outdoor have to do with this ? Is indoor hard not hard court or are you Nadal fan?

?!?

Can you not follow the progression of the conversation?

You mentioned Tsitsi’s performance at the AO, an outdoor HC. I responded by correctly pointing out that Tsonga is the better outdoor HC player (and the better AO player, if we’d like to get more granular). That’s why I separated the two. Not to create an artificial advantage for Tsonga.

Not like I would need to, as Tsonga is the better indoor HC player anyway.

You found a formula to remove so many of Tsitsipas's wins on Indoor hard away.

No?

Removing indoors, if anything, GREATLY aids Tsitsipas. Tsonga’s win in Paris tops anything Tsitsipas did on indoor HC (yes, even ‘19 WTF). He won 13 tournaments indoors, including additional finals victories against Djokovic, Delpo and Berdych.

 

[nolefam_2024]

?!?

Can you not follow the progression of the conversation?

You mentioned Tsitsi’s performance at the AO, an outdoor HC. I responded by correctly pointing out that Tsonga is the better outdoor HC player (and the better AO player, if we’d like to get more granular). That’s why I separated the two. Not to create an artificial advantage for Tsonga.

Not like I would need to, as Tsonga is the better indoor HC player anyway.




No?

Removing indoors, if anything, GREATLY aids Tsitsipas. Tsonga’s win in Paris tops anything Tsitsipas did on indoor HC (yes, even ‘19 WTF). He won 13 tournaments indoors, including additional finals victories against Djokovic, Delpo and Berdych.

I responded to your comment about HC forehand

I am not going to follow your made up rules where you discounted Tsitsipas's indoor results at all.

Tsonga has far more titles because of how long he has played. Tsitsipas is on pace.

 

[TheFifthSet]

None of the Murray Berdych Tsongas of those days dominated. They couldn't. Big 3 is just a crutch now for their failures.

You can dress it up however you want, it doesn’t make the point any less true. Federer, Nadal and Djokovic were better players than anyone around today. By a lot. If that’s an “excuse,” so be it.

Murray himself is far more successful than rest of the players of that generation so he deserves a lot of respect but even he lacked talent to be ATG

He lacked the talent to be better than prime Federer, Nadal and Djokovic.

Nonetheless, he had enough talent to go a whopping 157-13 against the rest of the field in slams from 2008 to 2016.

Whether he’s an ATG is up for debate, but he has not been outshone by Alcaraz and Sinner — yet.

 

[TheFifthSet]

I responded to your comment about HC forehand

Yes and you cited outdoor HC tournaments.

Me comparing their abilities on outdoor HC’s is thus topical.

My goodness man.

I am not going to follow your made up rules

What rules?

where you discounted Tsitsipas's indoor results at all.

How is it being “discounted?”

Tsonga competing against stronger top players is an important consideration. It does not “discount” what either of them did, it just adds context to the comparison.

Tennis tournaments are not won in a vacuum. They are won against a specific field.

Tsonga has far more titles because of how long he has played. Tsitsipas is on pace.

Tsonga has also shown a higher peak level…on outdoor HC, indoor HC and grass.

Tsitsipas has shown a higher peak level on Clay Masters 1000’s.

Is what it is.

 

[nolefam_2024]

You can dress it up however you want, it doesn’t make the point any less true. Federer, Nadal and Djokovic were better players than anyone around today. By a lot. If that’s an “excuse,” so be it.




He lacked the talent to be better than prime Federer, Nadal and Djokovic.

Nonetheless, he had enough talent to go a whopping 157-13 against the rest of the field in slams from 2008 to 2016.

Whether he’s an ATG is up for debate, but he has not been outshone by Alcaraz and Sinner — yet.

Murray has not been outshone just because of longevity. It would not even take 2 years for both to blow past Andy Murray. It will happen there is zero doubt.

157-13 looks pretty good. But he lost to big 3 a total of 20 times in this time.
Its still a loss you won't give him even 1/3 of those wins because someone else not named big 3 from this era would beat him just the same.