How many Slams would Tsonga win today?

[stules]

Totally agree. Tsonga would still be dangerous today, especially at Wimbledon.

 

[nolefam_2024]

Yes and you cited outdoor HC tournaments.

Me comparing their abilities on outdoor HC’s is thus topical.

My goodness man.


What rules?




How is it being “discounted?”



Tsonga has also shown a higher peak level…on outdoor HC, indoor HC and grass.

Tsitsipas has shown a higher peak level on Clay Masters 1000’s.

Is what it is.

WRONG
I cited AO. I never made a difference as outdoor or indoor.

 

[TheFifthSet]

Murray has not been outshone just because of longevity. It would not even take 2 years for both to blow past Andy Murray. It will happen there is zero doubt.

I’m referring to their top levels.

Murray’s career statistics will definitely be surpassed in short order, due in very very large part to the competition gap.

157-13 looks pretty good. But he lost to big 3 a total of 20 times in this time.

Yes that’s the point.

He lost to the Big 3, mostly during junctures where they were much better than Sinner and Alcaraz.

The implied argument here is that Sinner and Alcaraz would be equally or even more futile in his place.

Here’s a layup hypothetical: take the Murray that lost the ‘11 AO final to Djokovic, the ‘11 FO semi to Rafa, and the ‘11 Wimby/‘11 USO/‘12 AO semi to Ned/Ned/Djovak…swap him with ‘22-‘23 Alcaraz…how do each of them do?

Competition matters. Shouldn’t have to scale Everest to establish that.

Its still a loss you won't give him even 1/3 of those wins because someone else not named big 3 from this era would beat him just the same.

As I see it, no, they wouldn’t beat him more often than not.

 

[TheFifthSet]

WRONG
I cited AO. I never made a difference as outdoor or indoor.

You’re being pedantic.

AO is an outdoor HC. You mentioned his AO results, then argued his forehand works well on HC. Comparing their outdoor HC results wasn’t a rabbit trail.

And again, we don’t need to limit it to outdoor HC, if you wish. Feel free to examine their records on indoor HC too, where Tsonga is also the better player.

 

[Feather]

LOL @ comparing beating Roger Federer at Wimbledon 2011 and Australia Open 2019.. the extent to which posters go!

 

[nolefam_2024]

You’re being pedantic.

AO is an outdoor HC. You mentioned his AO results, then argued his forehand works well on HC. Comparing their outdoor HC results wasn’t a rabbit trail.

And again, we don’t need to limit it to outdoor HC, if you wish. Feel free to examine their records on indoor HC too, where Tsonga is also the better player.

Nope

You brought in outdoor to indoor. I am not backing off on this one. Tsitsipas has already won some titles on hc including his biggest being a 500 and an atp final

This is better than Tsonga's best on indoor already so hard courts is no problem for tsitsipas. In fact its better to play outdoor for him than indoors.

 

[nolefam_2024]

LOL @ comparing beating Roger Federer at Wimbledon 2011 and Australia Open 2019.. the extent to which posters go!

Fed played much better in Wimby 11 this is ridiculous and I have not compared that.
I compared Nadal AO 2008 to Fed AO 2019.

 

[TheFifthSet]

Nope

You brought in outdoor to indoor.

And I explained why. Many times over.

We can talk about their indoor and AO records, if it’s such a sticking point to you.

I am not backing off on this one. Tsitsipas has already won some titles on hc including his biggest being a 500 and an atp final

This is better than Tsonga's best on indoor already

Not at all. Tsonga has Paris ‘08 and three other good indoor wins (in finals against Djokovic, Berdych and Delpo) in his favour.

The difference in Year End resumes is down to one thing: playing Prime (tail-end-of-prime) Fed vs. playing Thiem. That’s the extent of it. And it’s not like Tsonga laid down for Fed in ‘11, either.

so hard courts is no problem for tsitsipas. In fact its better to play outdoor for him than indoors.

Ok.

And Tsonga has, thus far, the better outdoor HC peak.

Better wins (Canada ‘14), better near-wins (AO ‘08).

 

[Feather]

Fed played much better in Wimby 11 this is ridiculous and I have not compared that.
I compared Nadal AO 2008 to Fed AO 2019.

Oh sorry my mistake.. apologies

I consider beating Rafa at AO 2008 a better win than beating Roger ar AO 2019.

 

[nolefam_2024]

And I explained why. Many times over.

We can talk about their indoor and AO records, if it’s such a sticking point to you.







Not at all. Tsonga has Paris ‘08 and three other good indoor wins (in finals against Djokovic, Berdych and Delpo) in his favour.

The difference in Year End resumes is down to one thing: playing Prime (tail-end-of-prime) Fed vs. playing Thiem. That’s the extent of it. And it’s not like Tsonga laid down for Fed in ‘11, either.




Ok.

And Tsonga has, thus far, the better outdoor HC peak.

Better wins (Canada ‘14), better near-wins (AO ‘08).

Ridiculous
Tsonga was 28 when he won this. Late career resurgence.
Tsitsipas is 25. And already has bettered everything Tsonga has done.

4 big titles to 3
2 slam finals to 1
6 semis to 6

 

[nolefam_2024]

Oh sorry my mistake.. apologies

I consider beating Rafa at AO 2008 a better win than beating Roger ar AO 2019.

Maybe.

Its not that big a difference. Fed won AO 17, 18 and on 1 leg reached semis in 20.

Nadal lost all matches before reaching semis till 2008.

 

[TheFifthSet]

Oh sorry my mistake.. apologies

I consider beating Rafa at AO 2008 a better win than beating Roger ar AO 2019.

Nah, you were right my guy.

He said Tsitsipas has matched “””anything””” Tsonga has done (did not specify “at the AO”) then immediately brought up AO ‘19, in a response to a post that mentioned Tsonga’s ‘11 Wimbledon win. Not your fault you couldn’t read his mind.

 

[nolefam_2024]

Nah, you were right my guy.

He said Tsitsipas has matched “””anything””” Tsonga has done (did not specify “at the AO”) then immediately brought up AO ‘19, in a response to a post that mentioned Tsonga’s ‘11 Wimbledon win.

Naturally Tsitsipas has matched everything

His best surface is clay. He has won 3 clay masters and Tsonga has 0. Of course both have some differences on where they played their best. Tsitsipas's RG 21 run is as good as any Tsonga slam run.

 

[TheFifthSet]

Ridiculous
Tsonga was 28 when he won this. Late career resurgence.

Tsonga was also chronically injured from 2004-2007. He was not a late-bloomer in the traditional sense of the word.

Tsitsipas is 25. And already has bettered everything Tsonga has done.

4 big titles to 3
2 slam finals to 1
6 semis to 6

Yes, Tsitsipas will end up with more beans.

Tsonga, to date, has had the clearly better peak. Even if you stop at their Age 26 year (2011 and 2024).

 

[TheFifthSet]

Naturally Tsitsipas has matched everything

@Feather, yeah there we go.

His best surface is clay. He has won 3 clay masters and Tsonga has 0. Of course both have some differences on where they played their best. Tsitsipas's RG 21 run is as good as any Tsonga slam run.

Yes, Tsitsipas is better on clay, Tsonga’s worst surface, and a surface Tsitsipas would have no chance on anyway if his prime coincided with that of TB3.

Tsonga is better on grass, outdoor and indoor HC.

 

[nolefam_2024]

Tsonga was also chronically injured from 2004-2007. He was not a late-bloomer in the traditional sense of the word.



Yes, Tsitsipas will end up with more beans.

Tsonga, to date, has had the clearly better peak. Even if you stop at their Age 26 year (2011 and 2024).

I hope Tsitsipas wins a slam as well. He deserves it.
Tsonga doesn't have higher peak than him. Both are very good and both have zero slams but theorotically win a slam

 

[TheFifthSet]

I hope Tsitsipas wins a slam as well. He deserves it.
Tsonga doesn't have higher peak than him.

He does, at both the Masters and Slam level.

 

[Razer]

Murray is ATG sir

11 Slam Finals, only going down to B3 no? And beating Djoko for 2/3 Slam trophies? He might even be the fourth best player in history if we assume the B3 are the 3 best

Slam finals don't count for anything. Only titles matter.

Murray would be on 0 slams if he was born in 1981 along with Roger. I consider Murray in the same tier as Hewitt, Safin, Roddick, Wawrinka, he is not a tier better than them even if he is the best player in that tier but he remains a non ATG.

 

[nolefam_2024]

He does, at both the Masters and Slam level.

No he doesn't

Crushing young nadal is not enough

 

[TheFifthSet]

No he doesn't

Crushing young nadal is not enough

Crushing young Nadal then taking Djokovic, in one of his best AO’s, to a 4th set TB will do it, yes.

As will beating prime Federer at Wimbledon.

 

[nolefam_2024]

Crushing young Nadal then taking Djokovic, in one of his best AO’s, to a 4th set TB will do it, yes.

As will beating prime Federer at Wimbledon.

Fed is DEAD now so Tsitsipas can't do that.
These names don't impress me at all. Level wise they are exactly same players.

 

[Rosstour]

Slam finals don't count for anything. Only titles matter.

Murray would be on 0 slams if he was born in 1981 along with Roger. I consider Murray in the same tier as Hewitt, Safin, Roddick, Wawrinka, he is not a tier better than them even if he is the best player in that tier but he remains a non ATG.

Sure they count. Especially when there's that many. You can't say he was a mug or squandered opportunity. Those other guys you mentioned were only good for short times, Murray's career lasted almost as long as Nadal's. Not to mention the whole hip thing

 

[nolefam_2024]

Sure they count. Especially when there's that many. You can't say he was a mug or squandered opportunity. Those other guys you mentioned were only good for short times, Murray's career lasted almost as long as Nadal's. Not to mention the whole hip thing

What Hip thing?
Murray game is far more taxing on body than most players. Why fall back 10 feet behind and play defensive tennis. He lacked 1st class forehand and got to where he is by brutally punishing his body.
Having 1st class forehand and also second serve is a talent, Murray lacked both.

 

[RS]

And I explained why. Many times over.

We can talk about their indoor and AO records, if it’s such a sticking point to you.







Not at all. Tsonga has Paris ‘08 and three other good indoor wins (in finals against Djokovic, Berdych and Delpo) in his favour.

The difference in Year End resumes is down to one thing: playing Prime (tail-end-of-prime) Fed vs. playing Thiem. That’s the extent of it. And it’s not like Tsonga laid down for Fed in ‘11, either.




Ok.

And Tsonga has, thus far, the better outdoor HC peak.

Better wins (Canada ‘14), better near-wins (AO ‘08).

Is Tsonga in the top 150 of all time?

 

[nolefam_2024]

Is Tsonga in the top 150 of all time?

What are you comparing this for

Accomplishments (even if adjusting for era strength)

Or just random hypotheticals?

 

[TheFifthSet]

Fed is DEAD now so Tsitsipas can't do that.

He never got close, against anyone, to matching what Tsonga pulled against Federer in those last three sets. Sure no one is around to match Fed’s level on grass (so far), but it’s not like Tsitsipas has given us an ‘08 Nadal destruction against a comparable (to ‘08 Nadal) opponent either…or has he?

These names don't impress me at all. Level wise they are exactly same players.

To some, maybe.

 

[TheFifthSet]

Is Tsonga in the top 150 of all time?

Ugh

 

[Feather]

No he doesn't

Crushing young nadal is not enough

Have you watched young Nadal play ?

 

[nolefam_2024]

Have you watched young Nadal play ?

Yes

I just said in my 2008 Nadal vs Djoko hypothetical that Nadal was top 5 hard courter that time.

Just like Fed is in 2019 but Fed is far more suitable hard court player. The difference at the top is minute. If Fed 2019 played vs Tsonga, who do you think would win? Will fed get blitzed like Nadal?

I always try to be objective.

 

[Razer]

Sure they count. Especially when there's that many. You can't say he was a mug or squandered opportunity. Those other guys you mentioned were only good for short times, Murray's career lasted almost as long as Nadal's. Not to mention the whole hip thing

Plates DO NOT COUNT .... Because players don't play for plates... they play for trophies only.

The number of times you climbed Mount Everest counts, not the number of times you climbed 90% or 80% ... in the end the failed climbs are all the same.... only the summit counts.

Reaching the final does not mean you are the best player of the tournament or even second best, in 2013 for example Ferrer reached finals of french but Djoker was out in semis.... in 05 ao Hewitt reached final but Safin had already removed Federer ... defacto finals happen, I am not ready to give any points for losing finalists.... only titles matter..... infact in the case of GOAT candidates reaching too many finals is worse than losing early, look at Djokovic at USO, he made a joke of himself by reaching too many finals and losing to the entire riff raff.... even Nishikori of all people beat him in semis once... you think all that should count as a feather in their cap ??

ONLY TITLES MATTER .... Finals do not count for anything.... The plates are useless in the goat conversation, infact collecting too many plates raises eyebrows on your peak level.

 

[TheFifthSet]

Yes

I just said in my 2008 Nadal vs Djoko hypothetical that Nadal was top 5 hard courter that time.

Just like Fed is in 2019 but Fed is far more suitable hard court player. The difference at the top is minute. If Fed 2019 played vs Tsonga, who do you think would win? Will fed get blitzed like Nadal?

I always try to be objective.

Have you ever actually watched the ‘08 AO semi, in full? If so, what were your impressions?

 

[nolefam_2024]

Have you ever actually watched the ‘08 AO semi, in full? If so, what were your impressions?

i have watched it in full. Nadal makes players look far better on hc because of how much court he leaves.

 

[TheFifthSet]

i have watched it in full. Nadal makes players look far better on hc because of how much court he leaves.

Then one should wonder why Tsitsipas hasn’t been able to match that against an opponent of similar calibre. Or an opponent of outright strong calibre, like 2011 Federer.

 

[RS]

Ugh

I was just thinking of something. No pressure.

 

[Razer]

Peak Tsonga would defeat 2019 Federer.

Nachiket is clueless about 2000s since he had never watched any tennis before 2012.

 

[RS]

 

[Aabye5]

Rubbish

Older nothing. Djokovic last year would have beaten Andy in 3 out of 4 slams. Only grass where Djokovic anyway lost to Alcaraz is different and that is Murray at his best which is what 2 years? Maybe 3?

Raz is 21 at his age Murray was barely reaching a slam final. Even despite British dominance in tennis and so many wild cards he got in early days.
In the end, you can't replace talent.

Nonsense. Young Andy would have a major advantage over old Djokovic.

 

[Aabye5]

None of the Murray Berdych Tsongas of those days dominated. They couldn't. Big 3 is just a crutch now for their failures.

Murray himself is far more successful than rest of the players of that generation so he deserves a lot of respect but even he lacked talent to be ATG

How could they dominate? There were already three (BIG) little piggies in the way.

 

[nolefam_2024]

Nonsense. Young Andy would have a major advantage over old Djokovic.

Nonsense

Young Andy is even worse. He would **** in slam finals

 

[nolefam_2024]

How could they dominate? There were already three (BIG) little piggies in the way.

That would take another ATG to beat them

They are just losers don't make excuses for any of them. Big 3 are NOT gods. If sineraz were there in big 3 times, big 3 would also bow down enough times.

 

[Torben]

Yes 2022 USO was a **** show when they banned Djokovic.

That’s what happens when you do and say dumb things and think no one will notice.

 

[objection_]

Lol at Tsitsipas's peak, guy never even made it past the 3r at US open and lost to the titan Eubanks when he actually made the 2nd week of Wimbledon. Right after making RG 2021 final he loses in straights to tiafoe in r1, gets pushed to 5 by ancient murygoat.

 

[objection_]

Peak Tsonga would defeat 2019 Federer.

Nachiket is clueless about 2000s since he had never watched any tennis before 2012.

2019 AO Federer probably loses to Tsonga, that was one of his worst forehand performances ever

 

[Aabye5]

That would take another ATG to beat them

They are just losers don't make excuses for any of them. Big 3 are NOT gods. If sineraz were there in big 3 times, big 3 would also bow down enough times.

No, I am not yet convinced that Sinner and Alcaraz are taking down the big 3 regularly. But I agree, they aren't gods.

I do think Sinner and Alcaraz are amazing players, but I don't think their opponents are as good.

 

[Aabye5]

Nonsense

Young Andy is even worse. He would **** in slam finals

A 2012 Murray beats old Djokovic in 4.

 

[nolefam_2024]

A 2012 Murray beats old Djokovic in 4.

That's not young andy. And no he doesn't have such a claim. They played 2 matches and split it 1-1 in HC.
Andy is just not great enough HC player and doesn't even have matchup edge at all.

Sinner is far better HC player.

 

[Aabye5]

That's not young andy. And no he doesn't have such a claim. They played 2 matches and split it 1-1 in HC.
Andy is just not great enough HC player and doesn't even have matchup edge at all.

Sinner is far better HC player.

Murray beat Djokovic at the US Open in 2012. He's definitely beating old Djokovic. Novak has not become a better player at 37 than he was at 25. It's ludicrous to suggest otherwise.

 

[aus89]

There are no slams on today but he could have won his first round match in Hangzhou

 

[nolefam_2024]

Murray beat Djokovic at the US Open in 2012. He's definitely beating old Djokovic. Novak has not become a better player at 37 than he was at 25. It's ludicrous to suggest otherwise.

Novak is far different player than in 2012. He peaks for slams only. At least he did till 2024. I also don't want to care about what Nole did at 25.
Murray beat Nole, Nole beat Murray its not like Murray is without sin.

I will say it straight faced, Murray is not ATG and also on HC. Because Murray rarely played in the final there. 1 time in 2008 and then last time in 2012. Sinner is going to crush the competition in coming years on HC.

 

[Aabye5]

There are no slams on today but he could have won his first round match in Hangzhou

Will Musetti play like the true #1 seed in Chengdu?