onehandbh
G.O.A.T.
This is why whenever I have to pee really badly, I never run to the toilet. I walk briskly.
How many tennis players can run one mile in under 5 minutes 30 seconds?
- Thread starter bobleenov1963
- Start date
This is why whenever I have to pee really badly, I never run to the toilet. I walk briskly.
Ronaldo
Bionic Poster
Gingerly here
Matthew Lee
Professional
Wait, are we talking recreational players or professionals or both?
I think 99.99% of pros can do it, but I genuinely have no idea or concept of what the percentage would be for recreational people.
I think 99.99% of pros can do it, but I genuinely have no idea or concept of what the percentage would be for recreational people.
Ronaldo
Bionic Poster
Why would anyone ruin their knees for this? Seen this for 45 yrs.
initialize
Hall of Fame
I'd be shocked if Jack Sock could do it, he looks kinda chubby
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
Tennis is high effort and then low effort. Rest between points, 90 second break on change overs. 5:30 minutes is much longer than how long points last.
A general principle is 'specificity'.
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www.verywellfit.com
I have a book on nutrition and it discusses the various energy modes of the body. There is a mode for short time effort, up to many seconds and there are other overlapping modes as the duration time increases. ("anaerobic metabolic pathways") Suggest that anyone interested in this subject study those energy systems (and identify the one(s) for 5:30 seconds and the one(s) for short to long tennis points.
Advanced Sports Nutrition, 1st Ed. (2006) Dan Benardot. The book is in its 3rd edition in 2021 and has been enlarged. Highly recommend, especially for discussions of the body's energy systems and their durations.
I was tested on a treadmill for a heart stress test and another time on a pedal machine for VO2 max.
med.virginia.edu
These tests checked out continuous performance for a few minutes. I believe that both tests gradually increased the required effort and I would try to keep doing the increasing levels. I have severe asthma and was not trained for the tests. They could tell from my heart rate and other measurements (including blood oxygen level?) when I was reaching the point where the test would soon end, at some point I was pushing it but could not sustain the push for long. These tests for minutes were not like tennis because they were sustained for longer times and the effort required kept increasing. I guess in a 5:30 minute mile you try to save that last push for just before the finish line.
I would look into those tests and see which of the body's energy modes were failing so that I had to stop for 5:30 minutes vs, say, tens of seconds.
Publication, Kovacs
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
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This graph shows the average time between points in matches including time between points, and some delays, match time/total points. The time of playing a point on average must be a smaller fraction of ~40 seconds. What is the average time playing a point? 10 seconds, more? less?
On rally length with stats quoted from www.tennisabstract.com
www.mattspoint.com
Intensity of tennis match play
J Fernandez, A Mendez‐Villanueva, and B M Pluim
Link -
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
A general principle is 'specificity'.
How the Principle of Specificity Improves Athletic Training
Learn about the specificity principle in sports. Training should move from general to specific and you must perform a particular exercise to improve.
I have a book on nutrition and it discusses the various energy modes of the body. There is a mode for short time effort, up to many seconds and there are other overlapping modes as the duration time increases. ("anaerobic metabolic pathways") Suggest that anyone interested in this subject study those energy systems (and identify the one(s) for 5:30 seconds and the one(s) for short to long tennis points.
Advanced Sports Nutrition, 1st Ed. (2006) Dan Benardot. The book is in its 3rd edition in 2021 and has been enlarged. Highly recommend, especially for discussions of the body's energy systems and their durations.
I was tested on a treadmill for a heart stress test and another time on a pedal machine for VO2 max.
VO2 Max Testing - Exercise Physiology Core Laboratory
med.virginia.edu
These tests checked out continuous performance for a few minutes. I believe that both tests gradually increased the required effort and I would try to keep doing the increasing levels. I have severe asthma and was not trained for the tests. They could tell from my heart rate and other measurements (including blood oxygen level?) when I was reaching the point where the test would soon end, at some point I was pushing it but could not sustain the push for long. These tests for minutes were not like tennis because they were sustained for longer times and the effort required kept increasing. I guess in a 5:30 minute mile you try to save that last push for just before the finish line.
I would look into those tests and see which of the body's energy modes were failing so that I had to stop for 5:30 minutes vs, say, tens of seconds.
Publication, Kovacs
Applied physiology of tennis performance - PMC
Competitive tennis play requires a combination of the major physiological variables; however, the specifics of these variables have yet to be determined appropriately. General strength and flexibility training have been suggested as being beneficial ...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
This graph shows the average time between points in matches including time between points, and some delays, match time/total points. The time of playing a point on average must be a smaller fraction of ~40 seconds. What is the average time playing a point? 10 seconds, more? less?
On rally length with stats quoted from www.tennisabstract.com
Rally Lengths in Tennis: A Contrasting Perspective
When teaching various tactical scenarios to players, I often ask them the following question: “what do you think is the most common rally length in tennis”? Less experienced players jump to answers like 7 or 9 while those that have been playing for many years reply with 3, 4 or 5. Do YOU know wh
www.mattspoint.com
Intensity of tennis match play
J Fernandez, A Mendez‐Villanueva, and B M Pluim
Link -
Intensity of tennis match play - PMC
This review focuses on the characteristics of tennis players during match play and provides a greater insight into the energy demands of tennis. A tennis match often lasts longer than an hour and in some cases more than five hours. During a match ...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
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the above study (the last one) makes some suppositions that simply aren't supported in modern literature. ATP resynthesis doesn't occur at the rate that the author(s) suggest. In short, this is perfect active if you're playing a 10 point tiebreak and nothing else..
While the primary component in tennis is anaerobic, there is a still a large aerobic component that should not be ignored--and it would be foolish to limit off-court training to 5-20 second efforts (even if those should be a major focus). And it's worth noting that the aerobic component becomes more important at the end of the match--which typically matters quite a bit...
While the primary component in tennis is anaerobic, there is a still a large aerobic component that should not be ignored--and it would be foolish to limit off-court training to 5-20 second efforts (even if those should be a major focus). And it's worth noting that the aerobic component becomes more important at the end of the match--which typically matters quite a bit...
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
I assumed that the premise of the OP was that running for 5 minutes & 30 seconds was a plus for tennis conditioning.
I looked up some data that indicated the percentage of the time that the players were exerting themselves. The percentage looks low on average and the times for points are much less than 5:30 minutes.
Is running a mile a plus for tennis conditioning? Why?
For myself, when I played singles, I discovered that I ran out of energy in the second set because of how I ate before & during the match. Fixed that.
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socallefty
G.O.A.T.
I think tennis coaches asked their players to do long distance runs more than 20-30 years ago. Now that the mix of anaerobic vs aerobic exertion is better understood, the focus is much more on short-distance sprint and interval training to develop speed more than endurance especially with in-season training. Players might work on their endurance and cardiovascular capacity more during the off-season, but practicing 4-5 hours on-court daily automatically builds up endurance also apart from any gym work that they do.
The idea is that if you can sustain endurance performance in a continuous manner it is easier to then transfer it to shorter bursts repeated for hours. Plus you can then do more training of repeated sprints etc.
The more mileage a runner does, the more interval volume they also tend to do. Because they can.
The more mileage a runner does, the more interval volume they also tend to do. Because they can.
I thought it was more of a question of "it a mile time a good proxy for tennis fitness". Honestly, It's a pretty good one. A 5:30 mile will be approximately 40/60 anaerobic/aerobic, and if you look at the overall energy demands of tennis over 3 sets, the breakdown is probably similar.
The principle of specificity is a real thing; so is the principle of overload--which is why some endurance training makes sense. I wouldn't recommend going regular all out miles though, just due to the injury factor.
The higher intensity, the longer the recovery period and less overall work one can handle. It's a tricky balance, since all athletes have limited resources. Time you're training is time you aren't recovering.
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
If a poster has a publication bearing on the rationale for 1 mile runs for tennis, that is what we need. That would seem to have been researched and exist. ?
Figuring it out on the forum.................
I read on the subject of periodization a few years ago and it seemed to be advanced, too complicated for first thought forum analysis. Better to search the internet.
Periodization lends itself to an off time and then a seasonal time. It is difficult for tennis pros or rec players because tennis is played so much of the year. Curves like this probably exist for pros and seasonal college tennis.
Long runs - while pros are playing tennis 10 months a year - seems very risky if they get a ding in the knee. ? What do they do?
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
I was once on an exercise machine at the gym and overheard two serious tennis players, in 30's?, talking about their competitive tennis together with strength training at the gym. They said it was rough to do both at the same time because of various pains. ? One guy had quit tennis because he could not do both.
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Ronaldo
Bionic Poster
Met that guy,
See that little guy lifting weights? This is really where periodization works best.... Having spent the last 25+ years racing bikes and the last 15+ coaching cyclists, I can tell you that this is one of the most mis-used concepts out there. I mean, if you're one of 3 or 4 guys in the world targeting a Grand Tour, it makes some sense. For everyone else, including 99% of professional riders, you're expected to be good from late February though October. Your contract requires it. You can have some "mini-peaks" around key events, but the traditional Bompa periodization scheme is simply not relevant to athletes who compete year-round. Tennis players certainly fall into this category (with the exception of a couple of guys and gals, who CAN just focus on a few key events).
While it's an N=1 thing, Wozniacki demonstrated that a top 10 tennis player can handle quite a bit of run load. I think she was running ~50 mpw while in the top 10--and I think it coincided with when she was playing her best tennis. I don't know how much the average tennis player runs these days. When I was in college, it was typical to do 3-4 30 minute runs a week, at a ~7:30 pace, so a high-tempo pace but not all out.
I don't actually think tennis alone is going to be that effective for aerobic training. There's not enough overload to elicit a response. That's why I think some supplemental training makes sense. As far as what that looks like, I think "it depends". If you're a player who can stay sharp by doing 1.5-2.5 hours a day training on the court, I'd probably run. If I were a player who was in the 3-5 hours a day on-court category, then I'd look at something lower-impact, like the bike.
For a rec player (including serious rec players), If I were on court fewer than 12 hours a week, I'd absolutely be supplementing with something--probably 2-3 runs of 20-30 minutes at 85% intensity. If I were a competitive rec player really going to maximize performance and balance it with real life commitments, I'd probably run 2 days a week, 30-40 minutes, and do two two days of high intensity, either on the bike or running lines, focusing on efforts in the 10-30 second range.
No, it's not... That's roughly the tempo pace for someone running a 3:15 marathon. That approximates to a vo2 max in the 60 ml/kg/min range (approximately, depending on running economy). That's right in the range of the average vo2 for an elite male tennis player.
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
A good place to search for publications. NCBI PMC online free publication.
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
Playing vs. Nonplaying Aerobic Training in Tennis: Physiological and Performance Outcomes - PMC
This study compared the effects of playing and nonplaying high intensity intermittent training (HIIT) on physiological demands and tennis stroke performance in young tennis players. Eleven competitive male players (13.4 ± 1.3 years) completed both a ...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
Daniel Andrade
Hall of Fame
I'm working on my fitness, it takes me 12 minutes 
Ronaldo
Bionic Poster
I'm working on my fitness, it takes me 12 minutes
Having spend the last 25+ years immersed in exercise science, I have to say I'm not sure that is much new actionable information out there with respect to training the alactic, anaerobic and aerobic energy systems. People talk about "HIIT" like it's some new thing--never mind that Billat and Tabata's most influence work is 20-25 years old at this point...
The energy demands of tennis are pretty well-understood. So are the methods to improve fitness. Yet some seem intent on searching out individual studies that are (barely) tangentially related to explain why they shouldn't do workouts which they simply don't want to do. It's not complicated: if you want to maximize your potential, you have to do some off-court training
Daniel Andrade
Hall of Fame
Now 11:30, getting there!
Ronaldo
Bionic Poster
Now they haul their kids in the golf cart. Guess she did not give up movingsome gave up running/moving for golf and using golf cart
I play this guy once every other week, he's 70 years old and as of 2 years ago he could complete the Army PT qualifications of 2 miles in under 11 minutes, I think he said he was close to 10:10. He shattered his foot falling off a ladder and then retired because he couldn't do the PT anymore.
You mean 10:10 for each mile, not for 2 miles, correct? Because no one that age is running 2 miles in that time.
no, 10:10 for both miles. He had to meet the PT quals to stay in the army. He was still running marathons and iron mans as well... The first time I played him, I thought he was in his 50's... He's like 5'8 maybe 140 lbs.. and was willing to grind out every point for hours..
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Daniel Andrade
Hall of Fame
that's a life well lived
Yeah, sorry--that's not possible.
71-Year-Old Sets Blazing Fast Mile World Record—on Low Mileage
Gary Patton runs only once every three days. The other days? Strength training, and lots of it.
www.runnersworld.com
World record time for 70+ was broken not that long ago. 5:29 for a stand-alone indoor mile. A 68 year old is not running 2 miles at 10:10, or anywhere close to it.
I don't think people understand that a 5:30 mile is actually really fast.
additionally, the army requirements are no where close to these times? I mean, unless he's in the Kenyan army??!
www.military.com
If running 2 miles under 11:00 were required to be in the Army, we'd be in big trouble, because I'd bet there are fewer than 1,000 people in the army who could manage that time. And that's being generous.
Army PFT Two-Mile Run Score Chart
Passing the two mile run portion of the APFT and graduate Basic Combat Training, soldiers must score at least a 50. Find the running requirements for each age group.
If running 2 miles under 11:00 were required to be in the Army, we'd be in big trouble, because I'd bet there are fewer than 1,000 people in the army who could manage that time. And that's being generous.
bobleenov1963
Hall of Fame
complete B.S.
Ronaldo
Bionic Poster
Winner of the Rosie Ruiz Memorial 2 miler
Ronaldo
Bionic Poster
Bro-in-law still plays full court basketball at 59. Guys ask how. He states he has always worked out in a pool.I would just love to be able to run 1 mile without pain from my knees and lower back. I can fast 1 mile in about 15 mins...
mental midget
Hall of Fame
guessing like 98% of the tour could run 5:30, no problem. that's like a mediocre high school track freshman time, even at that age the good kids are going under 5. if you're on tour, you're a strong, fast athlete. there are tiers of course but even, say, a dan evans would most likely be able to bang that time out. sub 5 starts to get more interesting
Daniel Andrade
Hall of Fame
It's now under 11 minutes
You're comparing apples and garden hoses...
A mile runner is purely focused on aerobic output and running economy. A tennis player has to have a high level an anaerobic power and relays a lot more on fast twitch muscle fibers. Tennis players are also a lot heavier.
Ballpark vo2 required to run a 5:30 mile is ~54 l/ml/kg. The average vo2 male pro tennis players is about 56 l/ml/kg. So it would be really unusual if "almost all" could run a mile in 5:30? Probably more like 50-70%. And vo2max typically drops with older players.
Yeah, 5:30 is not a great time for a mile runner. Tennis players are note milers....
mental midget
Hall of Fame
i'm assuming most pros do at least a decent amount of mild distance training for aerobic fitness as well. i could be wrong there but anecdotally i remember reading safin (of all people) did 35 minute 5 mile runs as part of his training. i'm assuming given that he could have toughed out one 530 or better mile...again, i could be wrong. your 50-70% figure could be closer–but in a do or die situation i'm guessing more of them could, than couldn't.
rafaboy1998-2001
New User
Not many in my opinion. It's just a different type of fitness to be honest.
Ronaldo
Bionic Poster
Florida dad breaks stroller mile world record - Canadian Running Magazine
After three attempts at the stroller record, Rob Holcomb pushes his baby daughter, Greta, to a 4:53 mile
WildVolley
Legend
.Florida dad breaks stroller mile world record - Canadian Running Magazine
After three attempts at the stroller record, Rob Holcomb pushes his baby daughter, Greta, to a 4:53 milerunningmagazine.ca
Not as impressive as this lady.
rafaboy1998-2001
New User
Amazing.
Daniel Andrade
Hall of Fame
8 minutes now
Go out and jog a mile. When it gets easier, go faster.
I read your posts in the thread. You are obviously a long time runner as you say. Only a runner would answer this question like this. Everyone else would quote some nonsense they read somewhere that sounds smart.
Daniel Andrade
Hall of Fame
You gotta also warm up properly, I had shin splits when running!
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