How many times has Nadal choked a match?

mike danny

Bionic Poster
Anyway, if we're gonna argue Novak won and Rafa lost because Novak delivered a more physical game, I would point to 2014 and 2015 where Novak won more comprehensively over Roger with, surprise surprise, a more aggressive game. The best way to beat the old man is to put him in awkward positions by playing with an attacking mindset. The whole logic behind "you can't beat him at his own game" doesn't take into account that Roger doesn't hold the advantage on defense. So you go after his relative weakness, defense. And how do you put him into defense? BY ATTACKING.

And remind me one time when Roger was ever upset by a defensive brand of tennis at Wimbledon? Cause I only remember big hitters like Tsonga, Berdych.

Rant over. (For now)
Well, it was easier for Novak because Fed's defense had declined significantly by then.
 

ADuck

Legend
Well, it was easier for Novak because Fed's defense had declined significantly by then.
Yes, no disputing that. But even at Fed's peak on grass, the strategy that gives the best chance of winning against him wouldn't change much. Grass is just a surface that favours attacking tennis in general, and that only becomes more true against Federer on grass.
 

mike danny

Bionic Poster
Yes, no disputing that. But even at Fed's peak on grass, the strategy that gives the best chance of winning against him wouldn't change much. Grass is just a surface that favours attacking tennis in general, and that only becomes more true against Federer on grass.
Generally attacking is a better strategy, not just on grass.
 

ADuck

Legend
Generally attacking is a better strategy, not just on grass.
Well no. It depends what you mean by "attacking tennis" now. Not in the way I meant it on grass where you need to hit lower topspin, stand closer to the baseline, and aim to finish the point quicker with pace or precise angle. Not the ideal strategy for all players on all surfaces.
 

StrongRule

G.O.A.T.
USO 15 vs Fog
AO 21 vs Tpas

no one mentioned 12 Madrid vs Dasco on blue clay yet?
don't recall Acapulco 19 vs Kyrgios that much tbh.
USO 2015 wasn't a choke, he was just in terrible form all year. He was never close enough to winning it to call it a choke. (even when he was up a break in the third set he still had to hold a few times, way too much for 2015 Nadal. He got broken 10 times in this match, more than in 14 matches he played in USO 2010 and 2013 combined) If anything, Fognini was choking way more, but Nadal was so bad that it didn't matter.

In AO 2021 he choked in the third set tiebreak. In the last two sets he was just out of stamina.
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
USO 2015 wasn't a choke, he was just in terrible form all year. He was never close enough to winning it to call it a choke. (even when he was up a break in the third set he still had to hold a few times, way too much for 2015 Nadal. He got broken 10 times in this match, more than in 14 matches he played in USO 2010 and 2013 combined) If anything, Fognini was choking way more, but Nadal was so bad that it didn't matter.

In AO 2021 he choked in the third set tiebreak. In the last two sets he was just out of stamina.
USO 15 is defo a choke. up 2 sets and a break vs Fognini.
Just because 15 was a bad year from him doesn't mean it wasn't a choke.
 

StrongRule

G.O.A.T.
USO 15 is defo a choke. up 2 sets and a break vs Fognini.
He lost because of being in bad form in general, and because of terrible stamina at this part of his career, not because he was afraid to win. That's not how you choke a match. Just like I don't think Djokovic choked against Melzer in RG 2010.
 

ADuck

Legend
He lost because of being in bad form in general, and because of terrible stamina at this part of his career, not because he was afraid to win. That's not how you choke a match. Just like I don't think Djokovic choked against Melzer in RG 2010.
What do you think of vs Thiem 2020 AO?
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
He lost because of being in bad form in general, and because of terrible stamina at this part of his career, not because he was afraid to win. That's not how you choke a match. Just like I don't think Djokovic choked against Melzer in RG 2010.
nadal was up a break in the 3rd set, up a break in the 4th set.
definitely some nerves while holding in that match.
Yeah, I'd say that's a choke.
 

StrongRule

G.O.A.T.
What do you think of vs Thiem 2020 AO?
Yes, this one was much more of a choke than USO 2015. He lost all of the big points in this match. He could have won all of the 4 sets, yet he found a way to lose 3 of them. Also, horrible play on tiebreaks.
 
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ADuck

Legend
Yes, this one was much more of a choke than USO 2015. He lost all of the big points in this match. He could have won all of the 4 sets, yet he found a way to lose 3 of them. Also, horrible play on tiebreaks.
How about the second set of RG QF this year? Novak too good or did Rafa choke the double break?
 

StrongRule

G.O.A.T.
How about the second set of RG QF this year? Novak too good or did Rafa choke the double break?
I didn't watch this match. Wasn't interested in watching DO with a fixed draw, and the match being "surprisingly" put on night time. But I have no doubt Nadal was choking, he always chokes against Djokovic. Last time Nadal beat Djokovic without choking at any part of the match was probably in Rome 2007.
 

StrongRule

G.O.A.T.
To answer the question in the title, I guess Wimbledon 2018 was the biggest one. So many missed chances... Just kept losing all of the big points, some of them due to bad decisions.

Though if we leave the importance of the match, Rome 2016 was probably even worse. (if we concentrate on the choke itself)
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
To answer the question in the title, I guess Wimbledon 2018 was the biggest one. So many missed chances... Just kept losing all of the big points, some of them due to bad decisions.

Though if we leave the importance of the match, Rome 2016 was probably even worse. (if we concentrate on the choke itself)
If anything, Nadal's willingness to go for it and his clutchness in this match made Wim 18 semi close. He saved 15/19 BPs in the match.
And had the gall to hit dropper to save MP and did it successfully.
 

StrongRule

G.O.A.T.
If anything, Nadal's willingness to go for it and his clutchness in this match made Wim 18 semi close. He saved 15/19 BPs in the match.
And had the gall to hit dropper to save MP and did it successfully.
Nadal was the better player in the third set, even despite Djokovic's servebotting. He lost it due to being unclutch on the tiebreak.

In the fifth set he rushed the net from the baseline (something every child who plays tennis knows not to do) on a key point. What is worse, he did it for the second year in a row. He made exactly the same mistake on a key BP against Muller a year before. Shows he didn't learn anything.

Nobody cares about the one matchpoint he saved, as the match was already lost. This is like giving Federer credit for fighting after the missed double matchpoint in 2019 (and not collapsing like in USO 2011), even though everyone knew he already lost the match.
 

ADuck

Legend
Nadal was the better player in the third set, even despite Djokovic's servebotting. He lost it due to being unclutch on the tiebreak.

In the fifth set he rushed the net from the baseline (something every child who plays tennis knows not to do) on a key point. What is worse, he did it for the second year in a row. He made exactly the same mistake on a key BP against Muller a year before. Shows he didn't learn anything.

Nobody cares about the one matchpoint he saved, as the match was already lost. This is like giving Federer credit for fighting after the missed double matchpoint in 2019 (and not collapsing like in USO 2011), even though everyone knew he already lost the match.
Federer and Nadal are really pathetic huh
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
Nadal was the better player in the third set, even despite Djokovic's servebotting. He lost it due to being unclutch on the tiebreak.

In the fifth set he rushed the net from the baseline (something every child who plays tennis knows not to do) on a key point. What is worse, he did it for the second year in a row. He made exactly the same mistake on a key BP against Muller a year before. Shows he didn't learn anything.

Nobody cares about the one matchpoint he saved, as the match was already lost. This is like giving Federer credit for fighting after the missed double matchpoint in 2019 (and not collapsing like in USO 2011), even though everyone knew he already lost the match.
Nadal was marginally better before the TB in 3rd set, that;s it. Neither of them had BP anyways.
yeah, let ignore saving 15/19 BPs against a returner/breaker like Djokovic and a gutsy MP save with a dropshot
along with ignoring gutsy aggressive tennis from set 2 till the end
because StrongRuling (deciding nadal definitely lost after holding saving MP)

one below par approach shot does not make a choke at all, neither does the 3rd set TB (a little messup agreed) given all of the above.
 

StrongRule

G.O.A.T.
Nadal was marginally better before the TB in 3rd set, that;s it. Neither of them had BP anyways.
yeah, let ignore saving 15/19 BPs against a returner/breaker like Djokovic and a gutsy MP save with a dropshot
along with ignoring gutsy aggressive tennis from set 2 till the end
because StrongRuling (deciding nadal definitely lost after holding saving MP)

one below par approach shot does not make a choke at all, neither does the 3rd set TB (a little messup agreed) given all of the above.
As usual, if it's against Federer and Djokovic then it's never a choke according to this forum. But then you of course bring an ABSOLUTELY meaningless match against Fognini, which nobody cares about, and where Nadal wasn't even close to winning. Nothing new.

If Wimbledon 2018 isn't an example of losing due to bad mentality then I don't know what is. Nadal lost all the big points in this match. And yes, after that horrible approach the match was already lost. Nobody cares if he saved a matchpoint after it, he was never getting the break after so many missed chances.
 

travlerajm

G.O.A.T.
I thought the loss to Tsitsipas at the AO was more about his body betraying him and not being physically acclimated for the conditions enough. Once you overheat, you are pretty much done. Just like Fed in the Millman meltdown.
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
As usual, if it's against Federer and Djokovic then it's never a choke according to this forum. But then you of course bring an ABSOLUTELY meaningless match against Fognini, which nobody cares about. Nothing new.

If Wimbledon 2018 isn't an example of losing due to bad mentality then I don't know what is. Nadal lost all the big points in this match. And yes, after that horrible approach the match was already lost. Nobody cares if he saved a matchpoint after it, he was never getting the break after so many missed chances.
15/19 BPs saved and he lost all big points? Only in StrongRule Land :-D :-D :-D
and yes, Nadal did choke vs Djoko in Rome 16.

nadal did choke while serving for set2 vs fed in Wim 06 and 4th set of Wim 08 when up 5-2 in TB. But those were not instances of choking match away by any means.
 
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StrongRule

G.O.A.T.
15/19 BPs saved and he lost all big points? Only in StrongRule Land :-D :-D :-D
and yes, Nadal did choke vs Djoko in Rome 16.
And Federer came back from 4-2 down in Wimbledon 2019 fifth set. So by your logic it fully makes up for the 40-15, and so this set wasn't a choke.
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
And Federer came back from 4-2 down in Wimbledon 2019 fifth set. So by your logic it fully makes up for the 40-15, and so this set wasn't a choke.
you had 2 things in that set: 40-15 and the TB. that could make up for one, but not both
Also what makes up for 1st and 3rd set TBs messups ? nothing.

federer lead in almost every stat in Wim 19. Wim 18 - they were neck and neck in many things, including # of winners.
not even remotely comparable.
 

StrongRule

G.O.A.T.
15/19 BPs saved and he lost all big points? Only in StrongRule Land :-D :-D :-D
and yes, Nadal did choke vs Djoko in Rome 16.

nadal did choke while serving for set2 vs fed in Wim 06 and 4th set of Wim 08 when up 5-2. But those were instances of choking match away by any means.
Also, I don't think Djokovic missed any real chances in the third or fifth sets. He had like 2 missed BPs in the fifth set (compared to Nadal's 5), and he didn't really have a chance on them. I also didn't mention all of Nadal's missed BPs, only the one where he made a very stupid mistake. Your stats about 15/19 BPs are mostly from the second and fourth sets which Nadal won anyway.
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
Also, I don't think Djokovic missed any real chances in the third or fifth sets. He had like 2 missed BPs in the fifth set (compared to Nadal's 5), and he didn't really have a chance on them. I also didn't mention all of Nadal's missed BPs, only the one where he made a very stupid mistake. Your stats about 15/19 BPs are mostly from the second and fourth sets which Nadal won anyway.
well, Nadal might have lost either one of set 2 or set 4 without saving those BPs no?
and if Djokovic didn't have a chance on the 2 BPs he got in the 5th set, that's Nadal being clutch on them, no?
 

StrongRule

G.O.A.T.
An Underrated one, Miami 2011
Could've changed the whole tone of that season
He could have played a bit better on some points (at least not hitting double faults on the tiebreak) but it wasn't a choke. Djokovic was the better player in that one. Actually, this is probably the last EVER match between them where Nadal didn't have mental problems.
 

ADuck

Legend
well, Nadal might have lost either one of set 2 or set 4 without saving those BPs no?
and if Djokovic didn't have a chance on the 2 BPs he got in the 5th set, that's Nadal being clutch on them, no?
There's a huge difference in saving and converting break points if you're Nadal. Going down BP turns him into a bull, so saving them is just the norm for him, converting his chances is when he turns into a turtle. But tiebreaks against Djokovic whilst ahead is when he completely freezes. The tiebreak in the 3rd set probably doesn't look like a choke when looked at in isolation, but every Nadal fan knows in their hearts Rafa froze up while ahead. He lacks the killer instinct in tiebreaks.
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
There's a huge difference in saving and converting break points if you're Nadal. Going down BP turns him into a bull, so saving them is just the norm for him, converting his chances is when he turns into a
Nadal converts BPs on return games just fine. He has one of the highest numbers on tour for converting BPs.
Obviously he's better at saving them.
 

ADuck

Legend
Nadal converts BPs on return games just fine. He has one of the highest numbers on tour for converting BPs.
Obviously he's better at saving them.
Tiebreaks are where it's most egregious. But that surprises me. Please show me your stats where it shows NON-BP return points won % vs BP return points won % please.
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
Tiebreaks are where it's most egregious. But that surprises me. Please show me your stats where it shows NON-BP return points won % vs BP return points won % please.
1. https://www.ultimatetennisstatistics.com/playerProfile?playerId=4742&tab=statistics
Nadal is at 42.4% return points won (everything) to 44.9% BPs won (ahead by 2.5%)

for a comparision
Djokovic is at 42.2% return points won (everything) to 44.4% BPs won (ahead by 2.2%)

2. Nadal's TB stats only started taking a dive from 2014 onwards (when prime ended)
He was at 65.7% TBs won (157 /239 ) from 2005 to 2013 - which is pretty high
58.5% (96/164) from 2014-current

You can check those from the filters in UTS.
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
But tiebreaks against Djokovic whilst ahead is when he completely freezes. The tiebreak in the 3rd set probably doesn't look like a choke when looked at in isolation, but every Nadal fan knows in their hearts Rafa froze up while ahead. He lacks the killer instinct in tiebreaks.
Nadal is 10-9 in TBs vs Djokovic.
including 4-3 in grand slam matches
won TB in RG 08, USO 11, AO 12, RG 22
lost TB in RG 13, Wim 18, RG 21
 

StrongRule

G.O.A.T.
Nadal is 10-9 in TBs vs Djokovic.
including 4-3 in grand slam matches
won TB in RG 08, USO 11, AO 12, RG 22
lost TB in RG 13, Wim 18, RG 21
So after AO 2012 he lost 3 in a row in slams, and many overall. Nadal has declined massively in tiebreaks over the years.
 
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