How much easier is it dominate tennis the last 10 years than before?

90's Clay

Banned
How much easier it to dominate the game of tennis with very limited surface variation as far as speed goes (At least not to the extreme as before) and with limited game variation than before? Homogenized conditions and playing styles (Strict safe baseline play) amounting in easier week in week out domination as opposed to past eras
 

tennisaddict

Bionic Poster
It is easier to stay in top 3 or top 5.

But to win majors, it is no different than past eras, as only the very best on the surface can win.

Otherwise, you would see Fed with 25 majors or Rafa winning hard court /grass majors in a period with good competition.
 

Zain786

Semi-Pro
Obviously it is not easier to dominate the sport, no individual has not really dominated since Fed's 2004 - 2007. Nadal had 2008.2010 and 2013..Novak had 2011 but no one really dominated in terms of winning slams left, right and centre.

Post 2008 -

1) Rafa - GS (9), M1000 (17), WTF (0)

2) Nole - GS (7), M1000 (18), WTF (4)

3) Fed - GS (4), M1000 (9), WTF (2)

4) Murray - GS (2), M1000 (9), WTF (0)

No one has dominated as these four guys (lesser extent is murray) have been knocking each of the other out in these tournaments. The competition among the four is too intense for anyone to go on another Djokovic 2011 or Nadal 2013. Novak has not won three majors in a year apart from 2011 as the competition has caught up with him.
 

merlinpinpin

Hall of Fame
How much easier it to dominate the game of tennis with very limited surface variation as far as speed goes (At least not to the extreme as before) and with limited game variation than before? Homogenized conditions and playing styles (Strict safe baseline play) amounting in easier week in week out domination as opposed to past eras

Well, it sure is different. With today's "easier" conditions, Sampras would never have dominated the tour, for example. He was just lucky to have the right game for his time, just like Nadal is today.

Is that how you choose your boys, btw? The one that has the game that fits the current conditions the most, so he gets advantaged and (hopefully) can win more than the others? Bandwagoning at its finest...
 

Indio

Semi-Pro
How much easier it to dominate the game of tennis with very limited surface variation as far as speed goes (At least not to the extreme as before) and with limited game variation than before? Homogenized conditions and playing styles (Strict safe baseline play) amounting in easier week in week out domination as opposed to past eras

You forgot to mention the equipment. Isn't it supposed to be so much easier to hit great shots with modern equipment? In fact, I think I'll buy the most modern racket available, get the best polyester strings money can buy, join the pro tour and dominate.
 

The-Champ

Legend
Obviously it is not easier to dominate the sport, no individual has not really dominated since Fed's 2004 - 2007. Nadal had 2008.2010 and 2013..Novak had 2011 but no one really dominated in terms of winning slams left, right and centre.

Post 2008 -

1) Rafa - GS (9), M1000 (17), WTF (0)

2) Nole - GS (7), M1000 (18), WTF (4)

3) Fed - GS (4), M1000 (9), WTF (2)

4) Murray - GS (2), M1000 (9), WTF (0)

No one has dominated as these four guys (lesser extent is murray) have been knocking each of the other out in these tournaments. The competition among the four is too intense for anyone to go on another Djokovic 2011 or Nadal 2013. Novak has not won three majors in a year apart from 2011 as the competition has caught up with him.

so you counted AO08 for Novak. Did you count RG08 and Wim08 for Nadal?
 

The_Mental_Giant

Hall of Fame
Obviously it is not easier to dominate the sport, no individual has not really dominated since Fed's 2004 - 2007. Nadal had 2008.2010 and 2013..Novak had 2011 but no one really dominated in terms of winning slams left, right and centre.

Post 2008 -

1) Rafa - GS (9), M1000 (17), WTF (0)

2) Nole - GS (7), M1000 (18), WTF (4)

3) Fed - GS (4), M1000 (9), WTF (2)

4) Murray - GS (2), M1000 (9), WTF (0)


No one has dominated as these four guys (lesser extent is murray) have been knocking each of the other out in these tournaments. The competition among the four is too intense for anyone to go on another Djokovic 2011 or Nadal 2013. Novak has not won three majors in a year apart from 2011 as the competition has caught up with him.

Post 2008? you are counting 2008 onwards from Djokovic, but 2009 onwards for Fed and Nadal... Since 2008 (year included) Rafa has 11 GS, Djokovic 7 and Federer 5
 

The_Mental_Giant

Hall of Fame
How much easier it to dominate the game of tennis with very limited surface variation as far as speed goes (At least not to the extreme as before) and with limited game variation than before? Homogenized conditions and playing styles (Strict safe baseline play) amounting in easier week in week out domination as opposed to past eras

Nadal and Federer would still have tons of slams.. not sure about the rest..
 

vive le beau jeu !

Talk Tennis Guru
I read the title and thought "90s Clay?". Yep 90s clay.
i thought 60's weed.
hippie7.gif
 
D

Deleted member 688153

Guest
How much easier it to dominate the game of tennis with very limited surface variation as far as speed goes (At least not to the extreme as before) and with limited game variation than before? Homogenized conditions and playing styles (Strict safe baseline play) amounting in easier week in week out domination as opposed to past eras

It's pretty easy to dominate a field of nobodies in the 90's too.
 

m2nk2

Hall of Fame
I'd say a lot easier. The field was so much more competitive back in the 80s and 90s. There was also a greater difference between the surfaces.

Any top 10 could win a slam then, along with super talented young guns like Edberg, Becker, Sampras, Wilander, Chang etc who won slams as teenagers.

These days, the field consists of nobodies except for the 3-4 top ones (F, N, D and maybe M).
 

West Coast Ace

G.O.A.T.
He was just lucky to have the right game for his time, just like Nadal is today.
Yep. Ginned up fast courts and light balls. No need for a BH or return of serve - unless you want to win RG... :)

Fed would struggle to get more than a couple of W and USO titles if Pete played the last 10 years :)
Dream on. Watch peak Fed's return of serve and go look at his break stats. Fed beat him at his own game as a baby at W and would smoke him with today's slower courts/balls.
 

BringBackSV

Hall of Fame
Yep. Ginned up fast courts and light balls. No need for a BH or return of serve - unless you want to win RG... :)

Dream on. Watch peak Fed's return of serve and go look at his break stats. Fed beat him at his own game as a baby at W and would smoke him with today's slower courts/balls.

What's Fed's return of serve going to do to Pete on grass? We didn't see Pete play with current strings but honestly I'm taking him over Fed at Wimbledon and it would be a toss up at the US open.
 

Mustard

Bionic Poster
How much easier it to dominate the game of tennis with very limited surface variation as far as speed goes (At least not to the extreme as before) and with limited game variation than before? Homogenized conditions and playing styles (Strict safe baseline play) amounting in easier week in week out domination as opposed to past eras

It is definitely easier today to dominate tennis as a whole than in the 1990s. In the 1990s, you had so many different dimensions to the game, in terms of surfaces, speed and playing styles. These days, play predominates around the baseline across the tour, and the variations on different surfaces are limited to things like being more instinctive and aggressive on grass by focusing on things like the serve and standing closer to the baseline, while clay is about grand strategy, patience and discipline. In the 1990s, on top of this, you'd have different playing styles to cope with on top, from baseline grinders, to power players, to serve and volleyers, to all-courters.

The biggest factor in the change is the difference between gut strings and poly strings. Gut has a far greater tendency to hit flatter balls, meaning more unforced errors, which means a greater variation in playing styles is encouraged and bound to happen. Poly has a far greater tendency to hit more topspin balls while increasing the power, meaning a much greater margin for error, players being able to dictate with a depth and authority like never before, and play therefore being mostly confined to the baseline.
 

smoledman

G.O.A.T.
It's hard to believe how long ago 2004-2007 domination was. Even Fed can't remember the days when he ruled the roost, roamed the land like a tennis Stegasaurus.
 

ultradr

Legend
Players's head2head is more one side since 2003, since tennis became essentially
all year long baseline game on a single surface.

true dominating player in post 2003 baseline era will win 20+ slams with 6+ straight year #1.

We have not seen such a player since Gonzalez, Laver and Sampras.
 

Indio

Semi-Pro
It is definitely easier today to dominate tennis as a whole than in the 1990s. In the 1990s, you had so many different dimensions to the game, in terms of surfaces, speed and playing styles. These days, play predominates around the baseline across the tour, and the variations on different surfaces are limited to things like being more instinctive and aggressive on grass by focusing on things like the serve and standing closer to the baseline, while clay is about grand strategy, patience and discipline. In the 1990s, on top of this, you'd have different playing styles to cope with on top, from baseline grinders, to power players, to serve and volleyers, to all-courters.

The biggest factor in the change is the difference between gut strings and poly strings. Gut has a far greater tendency to hit flatter balls, meaning more unforced errors, which means a greater variation in playing styles is encouraged and bound to happen. Poly has a far greater tendency to hit more topspin balls while increasing the power, meaning a much greater margin for error, players being able to dictate with a depth and authority like never before, and play therefore being mostly confined to the baseline.

This is totally wrong. No equipment makes winning easier--unless the opposition is prohibited from using it.
The game was changing long before the introduction of your despised polyester strings. Let me highlight a few of the more significant changes:
1974: The games' three biggest young stars, Connors, Borg and Evert, had great years and kicked off the so-called tennis boom. They also popularized the 2-handed BH. Obviously it didn't replace the 1-H BH overnight, but if you check the men's winners' lists at the majors other than the French since '74, you'll find that very few baseliners with 1-Hers not named Lendl or Federer have won, and the list of 1-H S&Vers isn't much longer.
1975: The US Open was no longer played on grass.
1987: (or 1988) The Australian Open was no longer played on grass.
Early to mid-1990s: The last fairly successful serve-and-volleyers joined the pro ranks (Rafter, Henman and Philippoussis). I don't know when polyester strings became commonplace, but I'll wager that it was well after this period.
Why did serve-and-volley decline? The 2H BH of course. Against it, the average pro without an outstanding serve could no longer make his standard delivery to the BH and then come trotting in to the net to pick off a sliced or blocked return (this obviously applies much more to hard courts than grass). And the fact that the number of grass majors declined from three to one also made a difference.
Topspin. You give the impression that extreme topspin didn't exist prior to polyester strings. I don't have to name all of the greats and lesser stars who used heavy topspin prior to the current era, do I? It's the stroke, more than the strings, that determines the extent of topspin applied to the ball.
Last but not least, you say that players find it easier to "dictate with a depth..." by using heavy topspin. Wrong again. Depth is achieved more easily with hard, flat shots than with topspin. High, heavy topspin's biggest value is in attacking a 1H-BH. That should bring a certain name to mind.
 

Mustard

Bionic Poster
No equipment makes winning easier--unless the opposition is prohibited from using it.

When did I say that it made winning easier? I said that it was harder to dominate all aspects of tennis back then, because there were more variations and more dimensions involved. In the 1990s, you had different gamestyles to contend with on top of everything else, and different surfaces usually meant that certain gamestyles would do better. Dominating the tennis world in that time, across all surfaces, was a lot harder.

The game was changing long before the introduction of your despised polyester strings. Let me highlight a few of the more significant changes:

Despised polyester strings? Excuse me? I said no such thing. I'm just pointing out the differences in the different eras.

Yes, I am aware that tennis has changed and evolved over the decades. However, prior to 1985-1986, we didn't have the sort of power in tennis that there was afterwards. Think of the very old school players with wooden racquets and pure gut strings, and it was utterly impossible to dominate rallies with a depth and authority of the sort that we see in today's tennis. In fact, with wooden racquets and gut strings, you'd struggle to hit such consistently deep and powerful shots, and for that reason a lot of play predominated in the forecourt, i.e. around the net. Today, due to the big power of the modern equipment, and the higher margin for error allowed by poly strings, play predominates around the baseline.

Topspin. You give the impression that extreme topspin didn't exist prior to polyester strings. I don't have to name all of the greats and lesser stars who used heavy topspin prior to the current era, do I? It's the stroke, more than the strings, that determines the extent of topspin applied to the ball.

I am well aware that a player can hit topspin with gut strings, and I never said otherwise. Sergi Bruguera used to hit huge amounts of topspin with gut strings in the 1990s. What I was saying was that gut had a greater tendency towards hitting flatter balls. If you hit balls flat with gut strings, it was really flat. If you try to hit the flattest ball with poly strings, it will still be less flat than what flat balls would be with gut. With more topspin, you have a greater margin for error, and with the power in today's game, play gets mostly confined to the baseline.

Last but not least, you say that players find it easier to "dictate with a depth..." by using heavy topspin. Wrong again. Depth is achieved more easily with hard, flat shots than with topspin.

You are missing the point. Hard, flat shots mean a far smaller margin for error, and thus a much greater likelihood of making more unforced errors. For this reason, flatter balls mean that you won't dictate with the necessary depth and authority, because you will be making more unforced errors. With poly strings, you have the power and the greater tendency towards hitter more topspin balls, meaning a greater likelihood of dictating play without making unforced errors. In turn, play gets largely confined to the backcourt.

If players are making more unforced errors in rallies, that encourages more style variation. If they can dictate from the back with a depth consistently, while keeping the unforced errors down, it means baseline play predominating.
 
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Smasher08

Legend
The biggest factor in the change is the difference between gut strings and poly strings. Gut has a far greater tendency to hit flatter balls, meaning more unforced errors, which means a greater variation in playing styles is encouraged and bound to happen. Poly has a far greater tendency to hit more topspin balls while increasing the power, meaning a much greater margin for error, players being able to dictate with a depth and authority like never before, and play therefore being mostly confined to the baseline.

Actually you're mistaking cause for effect in your attribution about strings.

But first, a little backtracking: there are three significant factors in the change since the 90s - (1) court speed, (2) balls, and (3) strings.

Slower courts are more grippier because they have higher friction levels which resists the lateral trajectory of a ball on impact more, thereby causing a higher bounce and making the court more difficult to hit through. Slower balls are heavier by design in order to make it more difficult to hit outright winners through manipulating f=ma. The long and the short of this is that flat shots (as well as slices) will therefore sit up more and bounce higher, giving opponents extra tenths of a second to react, reach them, and hit them back.

Gut does not, as you state, have a material tendency to hit flat shots -- just as poly most certainly does not have a material tendency to topspin. What is accurate to say about both is that the stiffness of poly in combination with its smoothness facilitates spin and allows players to hit shots at faster swing speeds with sufficient spin to keep it in. This holds true even in gut-poly hybrids.

There is no doubt that poly strings help players capitalize more on the higher bounces afforded by today's slower courts by shifting playing styles to a predominantly topspin baseline game, but if slices were still cutting as low as they were 20 years ago there could be much more payoff for players hitting a s&v style.

That said, let's remember the main reason courts were slowed down to begin with: flat first serves. Too many aces and unreturnables were feared to be making the game too boring. If you can't reach or react to a first serve in time, your choice of strings won't make much difference. From this point of view, poly strings won't be in your best interest since the greater elasticity of gut and comparatively less spin (in a full bed setup) mean a faster moving first serve bomb. However, once that serve is slowed down and your opponent can get their stick on it, spin becomes of the essence in order to get it back with authority.

Regarding your points about depth of shot, what matters more is an opponent's reaction time (or lack thereof) as determined by court and ball speed. Topspin only becomes singularly crucial when it's a modern slower court that resists the lateral trajectory of the ball more. From that point of view, what matters more on a fast court is hitting that one good shot asap, while on a slower court it's about working a rally to create an opening.
 
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2003-2007 is easily the most competitive period in the history of tennis. so whoever dominated that period must be the most dominant player in history of this galaxy.
 
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