How profitable is being a tennis player?

megamind

Hall of Fame
I was looking at tennis players earnings this year, and they make HELLA money, even Jack Sock made $218k

Which brought me to thinking: what is the average amount spent for an APT professional?

How much profit do they make by the end of the year

Some samples:

Nadal: $16.3m
Djokovic: $13.3m
Agut: $2.9m
Rublev: $1.57m
Tsonga: $1m
Millman: $995k
Sinner: $643k
Murray: $497k
Ymer: $372k
Sock: $218k

Full list here:
 

junior74

G.O.A.T.
Unless you're a top 100/150 player not very profitable.

Statistically it doesn't make sense to become a professional tennis player. What are the odds that you'll be one of the top 100/150?
Imagine any other profession with this stake.
"So you want to become a lawyer? Well, remember you have to be among the 100 most successful in the world, or you wont't make a dime".
 

megamind

Hall of Fame
That's nothing if you have 5 people on your payroll + travels + hotels + home + family etc etc.
how much do you think the expenses are in a year

i assume your sponsors cover a bunch of expenses like travel and hotel (all of it for top 100 players, a good proportion of it for top 250 players, esp if you're young)
 

blablavla

Professional
hey, but at least you get to make $218k in a year, even though you're unranked
1. Jack Sock is quite an exception.

2. If you look at folks below top 100, their prize money are far smaller

3. From that amount you need to deduct taxes paid in many countries, some might be refunded some not.
Deduct travelling expenses
Deduct coaching fees
and many other fees
so you will be lucky to get to a black zero

4. if you factor all the expenses starting with training as a kid, that will change the calculation
 

blablavla

Professional
how much do you think the expenses are in a year

i assume your sponsors cover a bunch of expenses like travel and hotel
I doubt that the top 50 player gets many endorsements.
top 100 player probably doesn't get any endorsements.
so, traveling and hotels are you the player, except for the AO series, where you get an economy air ticket return.
 

blablavla

Professional
how much do you think the expenses are in a year

i assume your sponsors cover a bunch of expenses like travel and hotel (all of it for top 100 players, a good proportion of it for top 250 players, esp if you're young)
player #100, James Duckworth made in 2019 $178,696 prize money
player #199, Botic Van de Zandschulp made in 2019 $36,629 prize money
 
A tennis player can always coach rich dudes in the local club. So i dont really agree with the common assumption that investing a lot of money in your kid is a lottery. They can always make money and play tennis for free for the rest of their life, given they have people skills.
 

blablavla

Professional
A tennis player can always coach rich dudes in the local club. So i dont really agree with the common assumption that investing a lot of money in your kid is a lottery. They can always make money and play tennis for free for the rest of their life, given they have people skills.
let me guess that a corporate job will bring more money as opposed to working as a teaching pro.
 

mike danny

Bionic Poster
Whey I look at a guy like Kyrgios, I realize that tennis can be a joke sometimes. He doesn't give a F most of the time and he still earns a lot.

Try having his attitude in other fields and you will be shown the door out.
 

blablavla

Professional
Whey I look at a guy like Kyrgios, I realize that tennis can be a joke sometimes. He doesn't give a F most of the time and he still earns a lot.

Try having his attitude in other fields and you will be shown the door out.
do you truly believe that one can reach NK level without training, only by playing PS, basketball and fooling around?

I assume that Nick clocked in many training hours, and still does.
 

mike danny

Bionic Poster
do you truly believe that one can reach NK level without training, only by playing PS, basketball and fooling around?

I assume that Nick clocked in many training hours, and still does.
No, but once you get there, it's a joke you can have his attitude and still earn a lot.
 

clout

Hall of Fame
Whey I look at a guy like Kyrgios, I realize that tennis can be a joke sometimes. He doesn't give a F most of the time and he still earns a lot.

Try having his attitude in other fields and you will be shown the door out.
If an employee were to say what Kyrgios said to Stan a few years back to one of their co-workers, they’d get sacked immediately, not ifs or buts.
 

blablavla

Professional
If an employee were to say what Kyrgios said to Stan a few years back to one of their co-workers, they’d get sacked immediately, not ifs or buts.
nah
in real world there are many ifs and buts

I know much worse cases, where big companies try to cover things, to keep the highly valuable employees.

You need to keep in mind:
1. tennis is not only performance sport, as well entertainment, and NK is very good at both
2. Nick might easily be in top 1% performers in tennis

as a business owner, you will think a few times before kicking out such performer.
it's not like kicking out someone who is average or below average.

from the fresh examples, I think Nike is plagued by misconduct at top level, and there is still a long way to go till everything is cleared.
 
If an employee were to say what Kyrgios said to Stan a few years back to one of their co-workers, they’d get sacked immediately, not ifs or buts.
Apparently you don't know much about how the business world operates.

Mark Hurd that passed away recently, remember him? He was the CEO of HP when he had an affair with an employee (the same one that he pulled string to get her a high paying job at HP). HP fired Hurd but gave him a 20M severance buyout. His buddy Larry Ellison gave him another gig as president and co-CEO at Oracle.

I would be very glad to be sacked with a 20M buyout, wouldn't you?
 
A tennis player can always coach rich dudes in the local club. So i dont really agree with the common assumption that investing a lot of money in your kid is a lottery. They can always make money and play tennis for free for the rest of their life, given they have people skills.
You won't starve but the coaching market is over saturated and the pay not great unless you get to coach a top 50 player or get a college head coach job.

Average lesson cost is like 45-50 dollars which sounds a lot but you have to pay court fee, insurances, equipment and all kinds of stuff plus getting 40 hours isn't easy and work times are not family friendly (evening and weekend).

Players outside the top100 get sponsors but they cover mostly equipment costs, they still need to cover coach salary, physio, hotels and travel. Also consider prize money is before taxes.
 
Whey I look at a guy like Kyrgios, I realize that tennis can be a joke sometimes. He doesn't give a F most of the time and he still earns a lot.

Try having his attitude in other fields and you will be shown the door out.
Kyrgios is also still one of the 30 -50 most talented tennis players in the world. Be one of the 50 most talented software developers in the world and you can be an ass too and still get jobs.

The more talent you have the more you can get away with, when Nick is 27 and ranked no. 150 people won't put up with that anymore.
 

BeatlesFan

Talk Tennis Guru
Kyrgios is also still one of the 30 -50 most talented tennis players in the world.
Actually he's top 2 in talent after Federer. Do you actually believe there are 49 players on the planet more talented than Nick?

McEnroe: "Nick is the most talented guy I have seen in tennis since Roger came along."

Annacone: “I think Nick is the most talented player since Roger jumped on the scene.”

Both of them know tennis better than anyone here and they're both saying he's the second most talented guy out there.
 

blablavla

Professional
Actually he's top 2 in talent after Federer. Do you actually believe there are 49 players on the planet more talented than Nick?

McEnroe: "Nick is the most talented guy I have seen in tennis since Roger came along."

Annacone: “I think Nick is the most talented player since Roger jumped on the scene.”

Both of them know tennis better than anyone here and they're both saying he's the second most talented guy out there.
talent is very subjective.
ranking on another side is measurable.
titles (tournaments won) is measurable.
how much people talk about one player or another is as well measurable.

in the measurable compartment, Nick is doing very well.
Hence he gets along with his "foolish" behavior and talk.
and the employees that are in top 1-2% are as well very often enjoying preferential treatment.
 

blablavla

Professional
I may have a feeling he doesn't, given that physically he is not prepared.
Wimbledon:
R1. he defeated Thomson in 5 sets
R2. he lost to Nadal in 4th set tie-break

Mexico.
R16, QF + SF were 3 setter wins to go to the final and win it in 2 sets

2 titles in 2019.
Currently ranked #30 in the world.

I think he has good condition.
 

mike danny

Bionic Poster
Wimbledon:
R1. he defeated Thomson in 5 sets
R2. he lost to Nadal in 4th set tie-break

Mexico.
R16, QF + SF were 3 setter wins to go to the final and win it in 2 sets

2 titles in 2019.
Currently ranked #30 in the world.

I think he has good condition.
He does get injured often enough and I think that's down to lack of physical workout.
 

BGod

Legend
Tennis is arguably the worst value sport to be a professional in the Top 10 (by money metrics).

That's why despite me being able to coach my son for free up to a decent level (which would save thousands) I concentrated on basketball (which I played in college so I can help too).

Tennis' problem is a monumental wealth gap where the peak earnings are comparable to top athletes around the globe but there's a massive drop-off.

I was familiar with Peter Polansky (high #110) & Frank Dancevic (high #65), Canadian pros who lived in my area and I was able to meet routinely because of clubs, etc. Now I didn't know their finances and they weren't exactly struggling but with the amount of work they put in they weren't rolling in the dough so to speak. At least not directly from their tour earnings. Officially you have 1.8 and 1.4 mill in career prize money but you might as well cut that in half from the onset in terms of money in pocket. Travel expenses and tournament fees as well as staff which you need at least 3 of (medical, trainer, coach) are not covered and over the course of a calendar year let alone a career you're going to be bleeding a lot of money, not to mention taxation.

Sponsorships help subsidize costs but they often require attendance at events and usually more taxable than prize money from tournaments. Now in Canada you could use staff costs as tax deductibles so at the end of the day you might limit your overall income losses but there will still be losses.

Biggest ways to minimize loss to tax is residency. Now here comes the reality. The bigger earners are going to be the ones who can afford to live in places such as Monaco or the Bahamas. And those are the guys who can afford to do so with their sponsors. A Canadian pro is less likely to get away with sponsorships living away from Canada since they'll be more reliant on local endorsements. Dudi Sela, an Israeli tennis player has done well for himself concentrating on Israel, and it being a small country, transportation isn't much of an issue.

Some will say being in the Top 100 means good money but that's not at all a rule as players have even lost money despite having a Top 100 year, and how consistent is that ranking you got to ask. But more to the point, how does it make sense to spend untold amounts of money for development, equipment and travel to MAYBE be one of a hundred players to earn good income playing the sport?

In basketball, you can be the 2,000th best player and earn good money. Hell top players OUTSIDE the NBA will earn multi-millions in salary (pre-tax of course). Then you hear of stories where in Algeria for some fourth tier league a good player by their standards will be earning $8,000 USD a month, which let's face it is pretty good money to play maybe 7 or 8 games in a country where your money will go farther. And I guess it depends how you look at it. In Argentina they play 38 regular season games over the course of 6 months. I've only known of a few Canadians who played down there but the salaries for the year were around $65,000USD and included free condo paid by the team, you also got fed at the facility most of the time. Taxation is around 35% so I don't know the details of money in pocket but even if it was $30,000USD that's $40,000cdn for 6 months of work. I mean, that's pretty damn good for a pro athlete way down the totem pole.

By comparison, unless you're really smart with your scheduling, have no staff and have good concentration of winning you're simply not making it long on the ATP without a sponsor. And that's the end of it really, tennis is very much a rich sport where talent alone doesn't cut it. To be frank the sport loses a TON of talented players to other, more sensible money sports.
 
I think he logs many training hours.
the "foolish" image is only an image

or do you think he doesn't train as hard as other pros?
I do think he trains a lot but I wonder how targeted his work is and how much brain he invests in his training.

-does he analyse his weaknesses and tries to improve them?

-how thoroughly does he analyse his opponents, especially early round ones he doesn't know so well?

-how serious is his physical preparation and nutrition?

I'm sure he works hard but why doesn't his game develope? Why hasn't he learned to hit a more spinny rally ball with a bit more net clearance?

Maybe he goes through the motions a bit much and doesn't work smart enough
 

megamind

Hall of Fame
I do think he trains a lot but I wonder how targeted his work is and how much brain he invests in his training.

-does he analyse his weaknesses and tries to improve them?

-how thoroughly does he analyse his opponents, especially early round ones he doesn't know so well?

-how serious is his physical preparation and nutrition?

I'm sure he works hard but why doesn't his game develope? Why hasn't he learned to hit a more spinny rally ball with a bit more net clearance?

Maybe he goes through the motions a bit much and doesn't work smart enough
For nutrition, he drinks Coke during matches
 

tennis4jags

Semi-Pro
This is a business and you need to think about it investment. If you have potential then go ahead and play otherwise why to play and invest is that because of Love.. that is why business quote says "Think with your mind not with your heart". I'm in IT and there are 100's of skills sets available in the market but we apply only what I know

If you guys are read Richard Williams book .. one day he was watching a tennis match on tv and realized that winner got check of $50k While his kids (Venus/Serena) were in early age.. And that time he was earning $55k annually. Do you guys think that he invested huge amount to became successfull? NO.. but he realized the real talent and potential in his kids..

I spent nearly about $25k in my kid till 13 years of age and realized that she is not going to make any progress in tennis. Just sit relax with sip of coffee and enjoy tennis by watching TTW posts :)
 

ChaelAZ

Legend
I was looking at tennis players earnings this year, and they make HELLA money, even Jack Sock made $218k

Which brought me to thinking: what is the average amount spent for an APT professional?

How much profit do they make by the end of the year

Some samples:

Nadal: $16.3m
Djokovic: $13.3m
Agut: $2.9m
Rublev: $1.57m
Tsonga: $1m
Millman: $995k
Sinner: $643k
Murray: $497k
Ymer: $372k
Sock: $218k

Full list here:

For travel there are a lot of considerations given players, such as paid or heavily discounted rooms, flights, travel expenses, etc. Many tournaments provide food for players and immediate coaches. Not exactly sure how much, but even for the local ITF $25k the top seeded players get quite a lot provided. So I think the idea that people ahve that top players making $200k are only making $30k after expenses is probably off by quite a bit. I've seen some of those articles with the grind of ITF challenger and pro ciricuit folks, but none mention all the stuff they do get, so I've always wondered what the net resutls are.
 

Ronaldo

Talk Tennis Guru
This is a business and you need to think about it investment. If you have potential then go ahead and play otherwise why to play and invest is that because of Love.. that is why business quote says "Think with your mind not with your heart". I'm in IT and there are 100's of skills sets available in the market but we apply only what I know

If you guys are read Richard Williams book .. one day he was watching a tennis match on tv and realized that winner got check of $50k While his kids (Venus/Serena) were in early age.. And that time he was earning $55k annually. Do you guys think that he invested huge amount to became successfull? NO.. but he realized the real talent and potential in his kids..

I spent nearly about $25k in my kid till 13 years of age and realized that she is not going to make any progress in tennis. Just sit relax with sip of coffee and enjoy tennis by watching TTW posts :)
More enjoyment.......................Sr. pickleball!
 
For travel there are a lot of considerations given players, such as paid or heavily discounted rooms, flights, travel expenses, etc. Many tournaments provide food for players and immediate coaches. Not exactly sure how much, but even for the local ITF $25k the top seeded players get quite a lot provided. So I think the idea that people ahve that top players making $200k are only making $30k after expenses is probably off by quite a bit. I've seen some of those articles with the grind of ITF challenger and pro ciricuit folks, but none mention all the stuff they do get, so I've always wondered what the net resutls are.
I am not sure if that is true. I was at a women 25K ITF event in Naples Florida a few years ago at the Sanchez-Casal academy and I met top seeded players at that event, of all places, Publix super market. They were shopping for groceries in the evening.

IIRC, I met Arantxa Rus and Sharon Finchman who were both top seeded players for that tournament. They didn't get anything provided by the tournament, according to them.
 

ChaelAZ

Legend
I am not sure if that is true. I was at a women 25K ITF event in Naples Florida a few years ago at the Sanchez-Casal academy and I met top seeded players at that event, of all places, Publix super market. They were shopping for groceries in the evening.

IIRC, I met Arantxa Rus and Sharon Finchman who were both top seeded players for that tournament. They didn't get anything provided by the tournament, according to them.

Hmmm...The faculity budget for the event included hosted accomodations and a good bit of lounge food. Now a lot of us host players at our homes becuase only the top few seeds get things. Who gets what depends on the tournamnet then I suppose.
 
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