Tennishacker
Professional
Every year a player stays in the futures/challengers, the less likely they will break into the tour...
How serious are we ??
- Thread starter Number1Coach
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Every year a player stays in the futures/challengers, the less likely they will break into the tour...
Bash and Crash
Semi-Pro
True, in any sport you don't want to be in the minor/developmental league for too long. However, if you turn pro at 17-18, you are most likely going to spend 3-4 years there before you make to the top level of your sport. I'm talking primarily male side of pro sports.
coaching32yrs
Semi-Pro
I agree with you #1. I do not undertand this business about the front door and back door. I follow the men's Futures because we know several players. Most Americans play their Futures in the USA, Canada, and Mexico. Occasionally in the Caribbean or South America, where the draws are smaller but the points the same. Very few travel to Europe or Asia. Not needed because there are enough Futures this side of the pond. Maybe going down to Mexico is back dooring it? Or maybe the 1 or 2 that get wildcards to ATP events, Sock and Kudla, are going through the front door?
I'm not convinced the wildcards help the player, they didn't help Donald Y. And Bjorn, who won the French, is slugging it out on the Futures like everyone else. Now that he's won a Futures maybe he gets an ATP USA wildcard.
I get what TCF is saying totally, and he is right. WCs didn't help DY but they never expected them to. That helped another situation USTA was facing at the time. There are certainly players that wouldn't be ranked near where they are without the 15-20 WCs they received.
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I am trying to learn from all the posters and wanted to give myself a quiz. This is what I understand.
Backdoor - players are sponsored by USTA Player Development, free USTA coaches, free training at Boca, Carson, or Flushing Meadow, trips covered... If one wins a Future, a wild card is given for a Challenge. If one wins a Challenge, a wild card is given to a ATP or WTA event. If one gets most points in Futures, he/she would be invited to a wild tournament for a chance to be rewarded a wild card to AO or Roland Garros....
Frontdoor - you are on your own; you are sponsored by your parents; you may be sponsored by Nike or Babolat... you train at IMG BOLLETTIERI or with another private coach... You pay for all of your trips to Futures; You have to do well, like winning Futures to get a wild card to a higher level tournament... You will never get invited to a wild card tournament until you start to beat up these players sponsored by USTA.
So, looks like the difference is only in money, I guess about $100,000 a year?
TCF and Brad - can I get a C in my quiz?
Backdoor - players are sponsored by USTA Player Development, free USTA coaches, free training at Boca, Carson, or Flushing Meadow, trips covered... If one wins a Future, a wild card is given for a Challenge. If one wins a Challenge, a wild card is given to a ATP or WTA event. If one gets most points in Futures, he/she would be invited to a wild tournament for a chance to be rewarded a wild card to AO or Roland Garros....
Frontdoor - you are on your own; you are sponsored by your parents; you may be sponsored by Nike or Babolat... you train at IMG BOLLETTIERI or with another private coach... You pay for all of your trips to Futures; You have to do well, like winning Futures to get a wild card to a higher level tournament... You will never get invited to a wild card tournament until you start to beat up these players sponsored by USTA.
So, looks like the difference is only in money, I guess about $100,000 a year?
TCF and Brad - can I get a C in my quiz?
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ellipticality_224
Banned
removed by user :/ Im always late to the party, what was it?
Bash and Crash
Semi-Pro
Yeah, but some guys need that time, taken Anderson a while to be solidly in the top 50, and other players needed time to reach that level, Janowicz, Soeda. I guess I'm trying to say, front door, side door, back door, if one of them gets you to the show, you are still in the show. Good quote from Raonic coach, "I don't think you can find many players under 22 or 21 that are even top 100 (in the rankings)," Blanco said. "What he's doing is pretty impressive."
Actually, looking at Milos travels he played all over the place in Futures( side note, he lost quite a bit to Mr. Fugate amazing), would Milos be considered a front door or back door?
Garin, ranked #920, was given a wild card to play Vina Del Mar. He beat qualifier Dusan Lajovic, #166 and 22 yr old. His best result in Future was to reach Semi early November. Let's see how fast he can break in top 100.
Watched a short video clip of Garin at the final of Eddie Herr. I feel that two Aussie teenages at the Jr AO final are better players, serve better, hitting harder, and move better as well.
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justinmadison
Semi-Pro
Number1Coach
Banned
Number1Coach
Banned
HERE is reality
We hit with 2 guys that won the OB and EH back to back in the 12's they are both attending college and would be awful lucky to take a set off DB now, they have trouble trying to keep up with him in practice now, winning it at 16 and 18 means nothing also just says your a solid player .
Making the transition today to the pros really has nothing to do with the jr.s , the game and players have become so physical that if you are not focused on maintaining and building your body through the jrs and really thinking winning a couple high level jr events is gonna do it good luck your missing what development is for the pro's
His ranking will be about 25 soon as he is not playing jr events no more here except Carson maybe Easter then Zoo but when he did he rose as high as 5 so that is irrelevant .
As soon as TCF's daughter who hits like Serena can figure out how to get a jr win in the 10's its gonna be pretty cool .Cause playing up in the 12's where there is no pressure and she has nothing to lose is not real development so he is only fooling him self and knocking on a front door no one is going to answer .
btw way you must not understand the process , you can win the OB ED and every top national in the same year and your still starting in the futures unless you win Zoo you are not starting in the main draw anywhere !!!! Yes the grandslam jrs may get you a wild card into the main also I think maybe someone can verify that on the GS but other then the Zoo TCF will be entering the futures with his lil girl but she needs to figure out how to win a match 1st .
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coaching32yrs
Semi-Pro
I don't believe it is accurate to say there are few ATP top 100 who slugged it out on the Futures and Challengers circuit for years. I believe there are a substantial percentage and that number is growing. What #1 Coach is doing is the way to go. Ryan Harrison got wild cards, his brother is doing it by winning Futures. I think winning in the minor leagues is better in the long run.
hey buddy: after seeing some college tennis I think you are going the right route if you want Deit to be pro.. college tennis changes you,it makes you into a grinder .. I don't know yet if this is a good or bad thing as top pros are often seen as grinders .. but for you guys DB being 6'4'' + maybe grinding tennis is not a good call... plus if you spend 4 years in college ,you've lost 4 valuable young years.. maybe 1 or 2 is OK to do but 4 years is too many..
Number1Coach
Banned
i have pointed Milos out in the past that our NCAA champion Klahn worked him at Carson a few years back , I was thinking this kid should go to college and Klahn should go pro but that kid Milos was very focused on his serve and shadowing his strokes through the change overs showed he had other plans then dominating the jrs and getting to that imaginary front door .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_Anderson_(tennis)
Looking at Kevin Anderson's wiki... He may not win a grand slam, but will make a good living as a professional tennis player.
TCF has a very high performance standard for a good coach. But his insights for boys having a dream of playing professional tennis may be right, namely a great player needs to be able to break into "big league" in a few short years playing minor league. A boy may need to break into top 300 by 18. If not, it's time for Plan B, do what Anderson did, namely, pick up a top D1 college to continue to develop your game, your mental and physicality. If you are an All-American and have good results in Futures in the summer, you keep your pro dream alive... Anytime, you break into top 300, you quit school and test your improved games in Challenges. Give yourself another 2 years to break into top 100 by qualifying and winning matches at ATP and a couple of Challenges. If you could not do so, finish your school, become a teaching pro or spend a few years to get your MD or MBA.
TCF's age related comments may be more appropriate for girls. Recent success of young American girls, such as, Stephans and Keys provides the support. The college route is a lot harder for women, because, possibly, very few pro-caliper women are playing NCAA.
Looking at Kevin Anderson's wiki... He may not win a grand slam, but will make a good living as a professional tennis player.
TCF has a very high performance standard for a good coach. But his insights for boys having a dream of playing professional tennis may be right, namely a great player needs to be able to break into "big league" in a few short years playing minor league. A boy may need to break into top 300 by 18. If not, it's time for Plan B, do what Anderson did, namely, pick up a top D1 college to continue to develop your game, your mental and physicality. If you are an All-American and have good results in Futures in the summer, you keep your pro dream alive... Anytime, you break into top 300, you quit school and test your improved games in Challenges. Give yourself another 2 years to break into top 100 by qualifying and winning matches at ATP and a couple of Challenges. If you could not do so, finish your school, become a teaching pro or spend a few years to get your MD or MBA.
TCF's age related comments may be more appropriate for girls. Recent success of young American girls, such as, Stephans and Keys provides the support. The college route is a lot harder for women, because, possibly, very few pro-caliper women are playing NCAA.
Number1Coach
Banned
So what your saying is you don't want to talk to any parent or coach who's kid best shot is a D2 college and could never hit top 5 nationally in the 18 at 16 yrs of age or could never destroy one of the top players from Europe on clay at the OB while being ranked 633 in the world ?? OK got it
So what do you want to know about development or raising a top jr who has a lot of potential of going pro ? I am here to help
Bash and Crash
Semi-Pro
Agree Chemist, but I think as players get bigger, stronger, the days of a 16-18 boy coming out and handling top 150 players on a regular basis are or have passed. Also, the plan you are stating is the one that TCF now does not want to discuss, and as players get bigger, stronger they need the extra years to get their game in sync with their bodies. Girls a whole other story.
Number1Coach
Banned
After a few ITF the one thing I saw compared to most of our young players is the way they approach fitness , a lot of the Jrs from other countrys were already weight training at a solid level ,our boys have know idea of what that is here in the USA , I was down in Fl. and saw that at 18 and 19 they were just starting to get serious about their fitness at Boca ,
There were 8 guys there, I talked with 2 of them and they explained what they were now doing and its kinda to late to be working on building that at this point breaking your body down on a serious level and then trying to play events ? good luck !
Anyone seeing Nadal come on the scene at 18 ripped and thinking he was born that way I will get my real estate licence and work part time in Fl. and I will give you a ripping deal on a lot of that wet land stuff .
Bash and Crash
Semi-Pro
Yep, however some are blessed a la Lebron, Nadal, they were men among boys, with good genes and hard work. Take DB, he can do his physical training now and get stronger and fitter, but he still won't be his strongest physically til early to mid 20's, but great that his building a strong foundation before he gets there, unlike these other kids.
justinmadison
Semi-Pro
Brad, you continue to believe that just because your kid has always been one of the top 5 boys in his class you somehow know more about the process and the “reality” than TCF. TCF has spent long hours thinking about what he will do to enable his 8 year old too far surpass your feeble efforts. By skipping futures, challenges, and going straight to the ATP at an early age he will have an ATP top 100 player, probably by the time she is 18.
Number1Coach
Banned
'"He has spent long hours thinking about what he will do " seriously you have me laughing and I for the first time will encourage education , Jump on it buddy.
Number1Coach
Banned
Trust me I get what your saying but then again Nadal wasn't putting his serve up near 135 mph at 16 but he has great legs since he was young that "they built" them to be very explosive , I really don't believe there is some type of special genes ,what I do believe is some are born with a large chest ,they can excel in the bench press , some with thick legs they can excel in speed , we worked hard at one point when he was 13 going on 14 and had him pressing on the bench up to 160lbs 5 reps which for his body type was excellent but he will never be superior at it, there is another kid I work with same age putting up a bit over 200 lbs but 5 inches shorter .
If you saw him run a mile you would think he is blessed covers it rather quickly but he is in great shape and has "long strides"compared to most guys but what we tend to call blessed I call a "bonus" but what is important is "what you do with it " which most don't .
Just my thoughts on what I have seen and believe is lacking
Number1Coach
Banned
Well until she can get at least 1 win as a jr or D3 college is about the best that can probably happen at this point .
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Number1Coach
Banned
your talking TCF why are you confused haha
The posts were by others
Number1Coach
Banned
i was gonna say I know he talk as though things are facts that he has never seen , and has certain beliefs that are questionable but I was kinda wondering about that ATP stuff
TCF vs #1 Coach - Who is a better coach?
Both TCF and #1 seem to be really good tennis coaches. Both have unique ways of training their kids to be professional tennis players. Debating who is a better coach would just go nowhere - the tennis community seems to be widely divided... So, I propose that we stop predicting which kid shall fail, stop making fun at each other for now. Let's start a real race between #1 and TCF. The winner shall be determined by their kids, yes, by how well they would do in professional tennis (no, Jr results won't count). How about comparing their highest ATP/WTA ranking? It may take 10-15 years to see the outcome of the race that would crown the title of #1 parent-coach in USA!
Well, if another American kid is doing better as a pro and is coached by their parents, then the title would be changed to the 2nd, 3rd... best parent-coach in USA. In any case, we shall know who is a better coach, TCF or #1?
We will be cheering for the race and rooting for both kids.
Both TCF and #1 seem to be really good tennis coaches. Both have unique ways of training their kids to be professional tennis players. Debating who is a better coach would just go nowhere - the tennis community seems to be widely divided... So, I propose that we stop predicting which kid shall fail, stop making fun at each other for now. Let's start a real race between #1 and TCF. The winner shall be determined by their kids, yes, by how well they would do in professional tennis (no, Jr results won't count). How about comparing their highest ATP/WTA ranking? It may take 10-15 years to see the outcome of the race that would crown the title of #1 parent-coach in USA!
Well, if another American kid is doing better as a pro and is coached by their parents, then the title would be changed to the 2nd, 3rd... best parent-coach in USA. In any case, we shall know who is a better coach, TCF or #1?We will be cheering for the race and rooting for both kids
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Bash and Crash
Semi-Pro
Both TCF and #1 seem to be really good tennis coaches. Both have unique ways of training their kids to be professional tennis players. Debating who is a better coach would just go nowhere - the tennis community seems to be widely divided... So, I propose that we stop predicting which kid shall fail, stop making fun at each other for now. Let's start a real race between #1 and TCF. The winner shall be determined by their kids, yes, by how well they would do in professional tennis (no, Jr results won't count). How about comparing their highest ATP/WTA ranking? It may take 10-15 years to see the outcome of the race that would crown the title of #1 parent-coach in USA!
We will be cheering for the race and rooting for both kids
Crap, ten more years of TCF vs. #1 this board will meltdown by then. Just kidding, it is always interesting to see how it all plays out, we have seen parents of the next greatest player come and go on here and elsewhere on the web. You have to love the passion and intensity of both and don't forget GA tennis, he is also in the race with these two.
Great posts and a lot of fun reading. Chemist, you seem to have a good handle on the subject after reading your last few comments. The unique thing about tennis is that it is totally up to you as a player. If you win matches/tournaments you will move up the rankings at all levels. There is no front door or back door in play here. All the wildcards in the world will only give you opportunity, but if you can't win or are not able to play at that level it is a mute point. Professional tennis is tough to break into due to the points system and the fact that you must defeat an opponent on the other side of the net. Usually they are just as good as you. Win matches and everything else will take care of itself.
Ya I forgot about GA's two kids. Will be fun to watch GA's daughter battling TCF's daughter. GA's 7 yr old son, though 9 yrs younger, may have a chance of playing #1's son in an ATP match 10-12 years from now.
Having a feeling that GA doesn't care or care a lot less about being named the best parent-coach
100% agree! The top professional tennis players are not only highly talented, they are machines - their fitness level and their mental toughness are simply beyond what an average tennis player can imagine! I start to think that over a thousand minor league players spent year after year in Futures, some of them may not really be chasing their dream of winning a grand slam, they are doing this because of their love for the game of tennis; they enjoy the competition at the highest level! My hat off to those who are still doing this at age of 30 or even older!
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justinmadison
Semi-Pro
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Number1Coach
Banned
I have been saying that for years , my friend new the Williams when they were young he said their dad had them running lots of sprints when they were young 8 ,9 10 yrs of age , him and his buddys shooting baskets would think this old man is tourturing these little girls "all the years later " look what he built!
But there are some who think its some special talent or genes . Same with Federer, he was in Dubai a few years back putting in 6 to 8 hr days kinda ridiculous for someone so talented.
tennisforlife77
Rookie
Brad - the clock is ticking - you must have some milestones or benchmarks for DB at this point - a futures event win by 18 - a challenger win by 19 - can you share your thoughts on this at this point - At some point you need to stop talking about development and start focusing on results - are we close to that point -
Trippisthebest
New User
LOL i went to this match and sat behind the players in the front row next to mardy fish's wife, sam querry girlfriend, and Isner's mom and they tossed me some candy they are all nice people but my mom was annoyed by the fact that they were eating it
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Number1Coach
Banned
do you think Nadal should have been still developing his serve with a different action to it at the US Open in 2010 or Li Na should have reworked her forehand "developed" with Henin's old coach this year ? Development never ends for the most part it becomes less on the physical side strokes,movement ect. but the mental part continues quite a bit till their about 22 or 23 .
Right now its a matter of getting into as many futures as possible getting used to them over the next few months then dominating and moving on , that simple and we will .
justinmadison
Semi-Pro
There you go again. Planning to work your way up through the ranks. Where has that gotten you so far? Sure, you have been top five in your class and are ready to start playing futures at 16 but look at TCF. He has the right plan. His girl will skip all this working up and go straight to the big time. You should listen to him.
coaching32yrs
Semi-Pro
#1 Coach. You are going down the right path. Don't expect him to start dominating Futures in 6 months. Men are breaking into the top 100 for the first time at a later age than 10 years ago. There are many cracking the ATP top 100 for he first time age 25 or later.
I agree.. its a LONG process....
Ya I forgot about GA's two kids. Will be fun to watch GA's daughter battling TCF's daughter. GA's 7 yr old son, though 9 yrs younger, may have a chance of playing #1's son in an ATP match 10-12 years from now.
Having a feeling that GA doesn't care or care a lot less about being named the best parent-coach
Your right!!!! I just want my daughter to look back and say how much fun we had and to love me the rest of her life.I just wanna be the best father i can be.
Number1Coach
Banned
I agree with you about the path , but will disagree on the timeline , I see why most have trouble cracking through early so I believe after a year or so he should be fine making his move .
Number1Coach
Banned
I think your right I should do what he is saying , where do I start ? Lets see with and 8 yr old who can't win a match , who is playing up to have and excuse for losses or for the most part what has he done that anyone has " seen" ?
I am not Manti Teo sorry bud
