How serious are we ??

[justinmadison]

Here is a link to an ATP ranking list broken down by age group. You could spend hours trying to figure out all of the implications.

http://www.****************.com/showthread.php?t=213196 replace the ***** with mens..tennis..forums (no periods)

Some quick highlights I noticed.

Boys 16 and under … no one in the top 500 … 6 boys in the top 1000 … 18 boys with more than 1 points … 4 boys with more than 9 points.

Boys 18 and under .. 4 in the top 500 ( 387 – 446) … 28 with more than 10 points ( 10 points gives you an ATP ranking around 960) … Christian Harrison is the top of this list at #387 with 83 points.

Boys 19 and under … Jiri Vesely is the top here at #250 with 192 points … Christian Harrison is 8th … 18 in the top 500

Boys 21 and under … 2 in the top 50, Grigor Dimitrov (41), Bernard Tomic (44) … 4 in the top 100, Ryan Harrison (57), Andrey Kuznetsov (81) … 21 in top 250 … Denis Kudla #148, Rhyne Williams #159, Jack Sock #168 … The USA has 4 of the top 10

Boys 24 and under … 21 in the top 100 … Ryan Harrison is the only one from the USA …

 

[Number1Coach]

Pros is different than juniors. It ain't a new division. Obviously he has had professional coaching along the way, Bij etc. Needs 1 pro coach very involved. He may have that now? The USTA should provide it. You still need to be very involved and calling the shots- the USTA is not going to like that. They refused to work together with D Young's parents, USTA wanted control. In my opinion the USTA was wrong and stupid.

very honest question , I have seen a list of players on here a while back not sure who put it up maybe BMC9670 did or someone else but it was the list of players that the USTA has had through the high performence in Key Biscayne and Boca the list had about 25 or 30 players who were at DB's level and all commited to this "pro" type of coaching your suggesting and not one of them cracked the top 100 or maybe even top 200 !

So my question is which pro coach are you talking about cause I am sure I can do what they have done and as for the pros being different the mental yes , they do things a "bit" different but we have time so will see , but in DETAIL give me and idea of what a pro coach will provide I cant ?
I have been able to watch a pro coach in our area who played the tour and watched him have the players doing a drill that is way out dated because the game has moved on yet everyone did what he said because he played pro "having players scoop a ball up from a low position shove it down the line is outdated and each player kept getting passed crosscourt , yet he said you have to make your approach better !" but picking a fed ball at your knees or lower and trying to shove down the line is something that worked in the 60's and 70's and that is why Fed probably got rid of Roach he realized he was outdated in his thinking and did better without him !

 

[Tennishacker]

Coach, alot of second guessing by the so called experts on here. Not one of them have done what you have done with DB.

You must find it amusing.

 

[andfor]

Here is a link to an ATP ranking list broken down by age group. You could spend hours trying to figure out all of the implications.

http://www.****************.com/showthread.php?t=213196 replace the ***** with mens..tennis..forums (no periods)

Some quick highlights I noticed.

Boys 16 and under … no one in the top 500 … 6 boys in the top 1000 … 18 boys with more than 1 points … 4 boys with more than 9 points.

Boys 18 and under .. 4 in the top 500 ( 387 – 446) … 28 with more than 10 points ( 10 points gives you an ATP ranking around 960) … Christian Harrison is the top of this list at #387 with 83 points.

Boys 19 and under … Jiri Vesely is the top here at #250 with 192 points … Christian Harrison is 8th … 18 in the top 500

Boys 21 and under … 2 in the top 50, Grigor Dimitrov (41), Bernard Tomic (44) … 4 in the top 100, Ryan Harrison (57), Andrey Kuznetsov (81) … 21 in top 250 … Denis Kudla #148, Rhyne Williams #159, Jack Sock #168 … The USA has 4 of the top 10

Boys 24 and under … 21 in the top 100 … Ryan Harrison is the only one from the USA …

What's apparent is that the trends that used to point to predicting who has prospects even 5 years ago is outdated. I'd like to see the data trends in avg. age, but without it, in my observation in the last 5 years the average of tennis players in the pro ranks has gone up significantly. Using Nadal, Monfil, Gasquet, and other top players as models for a path to the pros or for prediction purposes is out of date. The trend to see more players peak later on like Ferrer, Melzer, Pare, Tipserevic, etc. is more of the norm now.

very honest question , I have seen a list of players on here a while back not sure who put it up maybe BMC9670 did or someone else but it was the list of players that the USTA has had through the high performence in Key Biscayne and Boca the list had about 25 or 30 players who were at DB's level and all commited to this "pro" type of coaching your suggesting and not one of them cracked the top 100 or maybe even top 200 !

So my question is which pro coach are you talking about cause I am sure I can do what they have done and as for the pros being different the mental yes , they do things a "bit" different but we have time so will see , but in DETAIL give me and idea of what a pro coach will provide I cant ?
I have been able to watch a pro coach in our area who played the tour and watched him have the players doing a drill that is way out dated because the game has moved on yet everyone did what he said because he played pro "having players scoop a ball up from a low position shove it down the line is outdated and each player kept getting passed crosscourt , yet he said you have to make your approach better !" but picking a fed ball at your knees or lower and trying to shove down the line is something that worked in the 60's and 70's and that is why Fed probably got rid of Roach he realized he was outdated in his thinking and did better without him !

You keep doing what you're doing. It's obvious to me your trying to and are giving DB the latest and greatest training and match experience. You've made some mistakes but are doing far more right than wrong. For now and as long as he's improving, keep on keeping on. If the time comes and he plateaus, and you need to employ some help, you'll know when that is and who is the person for the job. Keep an open mind and be ready to adapt and change things when neccessay. I think that's been one of the main keys to his success.

 

[coaching32yrs]

Coach #1. You are a smart tennis guy. This is oversimplifying things but juniors is about defense, pros about offense. But you have to when and where to play offense. Stay in charge but find a trusted consultant. Your player needs to learn the pro style and dominate with his serve and forehand.

 

[Number1Coach]

Coach, alot of second guessing by the so called experts on here. Not one of them have done what you have done with DB.

You must find it amusing.

Yes and no , I am always open to critiques on DB and what I am doing , it has been one of the elements that has helped us succeed , if I am at a court and someone points out something I do or DB i always consider it even though it may irritated me ,

As for most on here there are 3 groups the haters , neutral , and fans of those trying to succeed in USA tennis , The haters usually have no proof of what they have done or have failed at it and want you to fail cause of their lack ,they often cause they hate will point out weaknesses in your game that helps , neutral they are neutral , those that are fans encourage and give you a solid feeling of wanting to succeed not only for you but them . Its all good and yes I am amused !

 

[Number1Coach]

What's apparent is that the trends that used to point to predicting who has prospects even 5 years ago is outdated. I'd like to see the data trends in avg. age, but without it, in my observation in the last 5 years the average of tennis players in the pro ranks has gone up significantly. Using Nadal, Monfil, Gasquet, and other top players as models for a path to the pros or for prediction purposes is out of date. The trend to see more players peak later on like Ferrer, Melzer, Pare, Tipserevic, etc. is more of the norm now.



You keep doing what you're doing. It's obvious to me your trying to and are giving DB the latest and greatest training and match experience. You've made some mistakes but are doing far more right than wrong. For now and as long as he's improving, keep on keeping on. If the time comes and he plateaus, and you need to employ some help, you'll know when that is and who is the person for the job. Keep an open mind and be ready to adapt and change things when neccessay. I think that's been one of the main keys to his success.

Thanx and will do , we do keep and open mind and your right on the money .

 

[Number1Coach]

Coach #1. You are a smart tennis guy. This is oversimplifying things but juniors is about defense, pros about offense. But you have to when and where to play offense. Stay in charge but find a trusted consultant. Your player needs to learn the pro style and dominate with his serve and forehand.

The few events he has played in the futures I have on video he is very aggressive very offensive ,in fact it hurt him down in Fl. where he lost to DeSilva , was dictating many of the points due to his size and power and tended to pull the trigger to early , like I said get use to the division which is equal to a high level national and will be alright .

 

[Soianka]

Coach, alot of second guessing by the so called experts on here. Not one of them have done what you have done with DB.

You must find it amusing.

This part is definitely true.

 

[BMC9670]

very honest question , I have seen a list of players on here a while back not sure who put it up maybe BMC9670 did or someone else but it was the list of players that the USTA has had through the high performence in Key Biscayne and Boca the list had about 25 or 30 players who were at DB's level and all commited to this "pro" type of coaching your suggesting and not one of them cracked the top 100 or maybe even top 200 !

Wasn't me. I'm waaay outside of any knoweldge of USTA HP... just to clarify.

 

[ga tennis]

Coach #1. You are a smart tennis guy. This is oversimplifying things but juniors is about defense, pros about offense. But you have to when and where to play offense. Stay in charge but find a trusted consultant. Your player needs to learn the pro style and dominate with his serve and forehand.

Great advice coaching32yrs.

 

[coaching32yrs]

Saw Nadal final agnst Zeballos today. One of best finals I've seen in along time. Zeballos played out of his mind to pull it out. What does this have to do w/junior tennis? Zeb is #73 in the world and his level and shot making were incredibly high today. Young Americans who want to turn pro--- The bar is high- you have a lot of work to do.

 

[Number1Coach]

Wasn't me. I'm waaay outside of any knoweldge of USTA HP... just to clarify.

Ok thats cool but a while back one of the posters put up a list of about 30 guys that has been part of the Fl. HP program dating back like 10 yrs. it was amazing how many top notch players have been through and nothing has come of it , I hate to say this if you gave me that list of guys to work with and the resorces I would have produced at least 3 to 4 top 20 players how could you not .

 

[TCF]

==========================

 

[BMC9670]

Ok thats cool but a while back one of the posters put up a list of about 30 guys that has been part of the Fl. HP program dating back like 10 yrs. it was amazing how many top notch players have been through and nothing has come of it , I hate to say this if you gave me that list of guys to work with and the resorces I would have produced at least 3 to 4 top 20 players how could you not .

Maybe, but it's not only about what players you would have and what you would do with them... you also have to factor in what the rest of the world is putting up and what they are doing as well. You are putting in the long hard miles, for sure... but so are many others around the globe and there are only so many spots at the top.

 

[TCF]

==========================

 

[Tennishacker]

Sort of a silly premise and the worst post of the thread. The discussion is NOT who can produce the best junior player. Should I count all the work I did back in the day with Sekou Bangoura Jr. who reached higher level than DB did?

And your entire post misses the point by a mile. No one says a word that BB could not produce a top junior like many others have done through the years.

The DISCUSSION is about the MONEY MAKING PROS.....producing a money making pro.

BB has done it the same # of times as any of us, ZERO!! Get it?

Having another bad day?

 

[Hops]

What's apparent is that the trends that used to point to predicting who has prospects even 5 years ago is outdated. I'd like to see the data trends in avg. age,

here you go; graphs going back 20+ years

http://tennis28.com/rankings/group_records_youngest.html

your perception is correct; big spike in the avg tour age the past 5-6 years.

 

[coaching32yrs]

Ok thats cool but a while back one of the posters put up a list of about 30 guys that has been part of the Fl. HP program dating back like 10 yrs. it was amazing how many top notch players have been through and nothing has come of it , I hate to say this if you gave me that list of guys to work with and the resorces I would have produced at least 3 to 4 top 20 players how could you not .

I agree. USTA has failed at high performance. We like to think tennis is magic, somehow different than any other sport or organization on earth. It is not. Organizations fail because of poor leadership and poor management.
Enough said.

 

[TCF]

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[TCF]

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[NLBwell]

What do you consider a precocious age? What do you consider "straight to the pros?"

Bumping myself here to again ask TCF the question in response to his earlier statement. I'm not really clear exactly what his definitions are?
If DB (or anyone else) won the Junior AO at 18 yrs old 2 years from now, would that be precocious or would it have to be at 16 or 15?
Would the kid have to be playing the pros at 13 or 15 like Graf or Nadal?
How long/how many years of playing futures and challengers would be straight to the pros? Would it have to be like McEnroe who was playing both the juniors and the main event at the majors?

 

[Number1Coach]

Bumping myself here to again ask TCF the question in response to his earlier statement. I'm not really clear exactly what his definitions are?
If DB (or anyone else) won the Junior AO at 18 yrs old 2 years from now, would that be precocious or would it have to be at 16 or 15?
Would the kid have to be playing the pros at 13 or 15 like Graf or Nadal?
How long/how many years of playing futures and challengers would be straight to the pros? Would it have to be like McEnroe who was playing both the juniors and the main event at the majors?

The bar would be moved up like when DB made the quarterfinals this year , he will reposition himself like he has every time the bar has been exceeded . djoke was and ok jr and look what he has done , no GS titles no La petite , OB ext but his career has been decent, going pro and the route TCF speaks of is and old road these days with where the game has gone physically .

Until you can coach a player to at least one match win what you say carries very little weight .

 

[RingerOG]

I certainly hope N1C and his son do not spend more than two years playing futures in the hopes of "making it". You need to be solidly entrenched in the Challenger level by then. That is why I suggested in my initial post to play 10-15 futures up until the time to go to college. I would hope they would not turn down a full scholarship to UCLA, USC, Virginia, etc. to be ranked 1000 ATP after a year and a half of playing futures.

 

[tball2day]

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[chalkflewup]

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[TCF]

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[TCF]

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[arche3]

BB, this post says it all. The discussion is specifically about producing a money making player. None of us have done so. So until one of us does so, none of us has any credibility.

If you want to start a thread instructing others on how to develop a top USTA junior, certainly then you would be in your wheel house. But the difference in producing a USTA player and a money making pro is night and day. Hundreds and hundreds of US parents and coaches have done what you have over the years, almost none have produced money making pros though.

My kid won a match last week. I think I am qualified to be a pro coach now.

 

[Chemist]

If I were #1, I would take the advice from Coach32years and hire a professional coach, who has the experience of transforming top juniors to successful touring pros. USTA may even pay for it.

 

[Number1Coach]

My kid won a match last week. I think I am qualified to be a pro coach now.

Good job your kid has what it takes .

 

[Number1Coach]

If I were #1, I would take the advice from Coach32years and hire a professional coach, who has the experience of transforming top juniors to successful touring pros. USTA may even pay for it.

Can you name one coach who fits that description. ? We're fine we have been playing up as much as 2 age groups most of our jr tennis career and have had a winning % in competition and when we played the big scary ITF's we had a winning % there also against guys we should have lost too . We're fine

Btw measures a pro court , same size as jr court , opened a can of balls they used at a pro tourney same balls at a jr event , but I am really interested in a coach that is specific on what your advising ?

 

[arche3]

Good job your kid has what it takes .

I hope so.... At least a helpful entry into Princeton or Stanford. Harvard. Any ivy.

 

[arche3]

Can you name one coach who fits that description. ? We're fine we have been playing up as much as 2 age groups most of our jr tennis career and have had a winning % in competition and when we played the big scary ITF's we had a winning % there also against guys we should have lost too . We're fine

Btw measures a pro court , same size as jr court , opened a can of balls they used at a pro tourney same balls at a jr event , but I am really interested in a coach that is specific on what your advising ?

Imo stick to what you have done so far. Don't change a thing until you stop improving and stagnating. Those high dollar academies have nothing on a dedicated, informed and fanatic parent coach. I'd bet on a Richard Williams over bolleteri any day of the week.

 

[ga tennis]

Can you name one coach who fits that description. ? We're fine we have been playing up as much as 2 age groups most of our jr tennis career and have had a winning % in competition and when we played the big scary ITF's we had a winning % there also against guys we should have lost too . We're fine

Btw measures a pro court , same size as jr court , opened a can of balls they used at a pro tourney same balls at a jr event , but I am really interested in a coach that is specific on what your advising ?

I know one that would be PERFECT for Deit.

 

[coaching32yrs]

Can you name one coach who fits that description. ? We're fine we have been playing up as much as 2 age groups most of our jr tennis career and have had a winning % in competition and when we played the big scary ITF's we had a winning % there also against guys we should have lost too . We're fine

Btw measures a pro court , same size as jr court , opened a can of balls they used at a pro tourney same balls at a jr event , but I am really interested in a coach that is specific on what your advising ?

I don't know these coaches so cannot reccommend. There's a few that I like what they have done with their players. Brad Gilbert, Peter Lundgren, David Nainkin. Maybe they can give you some thoughts. They know a lot more than any of us on these boards.

 

[WoodIndoors]

I know one that would be PERFECT for Deit.

I sincerely believe that he has the best possible coach already. Good Job #1C !

That consultant idea (to #1, not directly to the player) would be, if not done already, a good idea though.

Which path to choose, that`s a different story. If there will be no junior GS wins (singles) at least 1 before junior years are gone, I´d push even force my player to go to college 10 out of 10 (if thats what he has considered also himself as a second option. If not, well, then it´s a bit different story...)

 

[WoodIndoors]

...of course the big question is:

If journey leading to 287 ATP (worst scenario) is also a big accomplishment , time well spend - or a failure?

If not a failure, and there's no major dreams becoming a doctor or a lawyer etc, go for it !

 

[TCF]

[==========================

 

[BMC9670]

How many times can you guys turn this debate over? It's getting old. Just do your thing and let it play out - proof is in results and time will either produce results or not. In the mean time, use the boards for constructive purposes instead of turning threads into pi$$ing contests about who can turn their kid into the next top pro.

 

[Chemist]

...of course the big question is:

If journey leading to 287 ATP (worst scenario) is also a big accomplishment , time well spend - or a failure?

If not a failure, and there's no major dreams becoming a doctor or a lawyer etc, go for it !

One can make much more money teaching tennis than playing on the pro circuit if ranked over 300 ATP. The life won't be easy even for players ranked 200 ATP. The following lists 10 players ranked #201-210 ATP. They have to pay for a coach and spend $20,000 a year traveling.

Rank Age Name Career Earning Year Turning Pro
201 28 Kirche $117,002 2003
202 23 Young $1,376,011 2004
203 23 Trungelliti $95,785 2008
204 26 Farah $345,816 2010
205 26 Ward $411,824 2006
206 26 Baker $376,728 2003
207 27 Millot $288,922 2007
208 25 Ilhan $617,578 2006
209 32 Robert $760,477 2001
210 32 Yani $397,821 2003

 

[Tennishacker]

How many times can you guys turn this debate over? It's getting old. Just do your thing and let it play out - proof is in results and time will either produce results or not. In the mean time, use the boards for constructive purposes instead of turning threads into pi$$ing contests about who can turn their kid into the next top pro.

Agree, whats funny is that these experts/coaches are on here 24/7, if they were good coaches, I don't think they would have the time.

 

[andfor]

Agree, whats funny is that these experts/coaches are on here 24/7, if they were good coaches, I don't think they would have the time.

It's called the internet you should try it. Just like you and all the time you spend on Facebook it's pretty easy stay in touch 24/7. If you know how to get text or email updates staying engaged throughout the day is not that difficult.

 

[chalkflewup]

If anybody tells you how great of a coach they are... fire them on the spot.

 

[Number1Coach]

I don't know these coaches so cannot reccommend. There's a few that I like what they have done with their players. Brad Gilbert, Peter Lundgren, David Nainkin. Maybe they can give you some thoughts. They know a lot more than any of us on these boards.

Know more about developing a jr then me ? I would question that , as for Gilbert he has my highest respect , Lundgren is solid , but my question is what thoughts are they gonna give me ?

If I wanted DB no.1 in the nation it can happen with in a few month and could have happened last year not gonna chase the points , know he is at the top level as a Jr and the only thing that would prove it to everyone here would spend the money playing ITF and have him go out and beat all the so called top players which does not interest me .

This is not rocket science it a process we seem to have a good handle on .

but please give me and idea of what they would say?

Take TCF never has put a video up of any player he has built , wont show his daughter hitting a ball , everything he has said about my kid has fallen way short of his prediction and most on here call him an expert and say his daughter is talented "WE HAVENT SEEN HER " so I am sure you can understand why I am reluctant to hear what most advise on here ?

 

[BMC9670]

^^^ Everyone on the internet is an expert... thought everyone knew that! ;-)

 

[coaching32yrs]

Know more about developing a jr then me ? I would question that , as for Gilbert he has my highest respect , Lundgren is solid , but my question is what thoughts are they gonna give me ?

If I wanted DB no.1 in the nation it can happen with in a few month and could have happened last year not gonna chase the points , know he is at the top level as a Jr and the only thing that would prove it to everyone here would spend the money playing ITF and have him go out and beat all the so called top players which does not interest me .

This is not rocket science it a process we seem to have a good handle on .

but please give me and idea of what they would say?

Take TCF never has put a video up of any player he has built , wont show his daughter hitting a ball , everything he has said about my kid has fallen way short of his prediction and most on here call him an expert and say his daughter is talented "WE HAVENT SEEN HER " so I am sure you can understand why I am reluctant to hear what most advise on here ?

You are not developing a junior anymore. You are taking a pro to the next level. Gilbert could figure out exactly what your player has to do. A dad can take a player to the highest level in juniors. To be a pro, you need a pro. Sorry but you are not a pro, you are a Dad.

 

[chalkflewup]

Know more about developing a jr then me ?

You have no other option but to defend your position because you're not going to turn your kid over to another coach...period. I'm not knocking you, I'm just trying to save everybody some time here. Let's move on already.

 

[NLBwell]

#1 has sent DB to a facility for a while. I hope he continues to do things like this and get outside advice and different practice partners even if he continues to be the primary coach.
One thing that makes all this difficult is how exceptional DB is. He is an excellent student and could excel in many areas, so a college scholarship to a top school is an attractive thing.
One thing to think about would be to even work out of a facility and play futures without taking the prize money for a year. There is an age limit to D1 tennis, so don't go to the point where that is a factor.

 

[andfor]

#1 has sent DB to a facility for a while. I hope he continues to do things like this and get outside advice and different practice partners even if he continues to be the primary coach.
One thing that makes all this difficult is how exceptional DB is. He is an excellent student and could excel in many areas, so a college scholarship to a top school is an attractive thing.
One thing to think about would be to even work out of a facility and play futures without taking the prize money for a year. There is an age limit to D1 tennis, so don't go to the point where that is a factor.

H.S. graduates get 1 semester off before the D1 tennis eligibility clock starts. That's why every now and them you'll see a top American Freshman start in January.