How to avoid "arming" the one-hander?

Raul_SJ

G.O.A.T.
For the forehand, I like to think of leading with the torso and the racquet/hand lags behind and then snaps through.




What is a good image to have for the one-hand backhand to avoid "arming" and properly engaging the core?
 
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Chadillac

Guest
Start your rotation sooner on the 1h bh (vs fh), you want to meet it in front (natural contact pt). If you cant, slice and wait for the next chance.

The frisbee throw is the best example, look at the release point, thats your contact pt in tennis (arm length makes it vary, all person dependant).
 

Raul_SJ

G.O.A.T.
Start your rotation sooner on the 1h bh (vs fh), you want to meet it in front (natural contact pt). If you cant, slice and wait for the next chance.

The frisbee throw is the best example, look at the release point, thats your contact pt in tennis (arm length makes it vary, all person dependant).
Yes, for the one-hand backhand drive. I guess if I get the contact point out in front, it should work out...

I was told that I was over-rotating and opening up torso too early. Needed to stay sideways... Another key is to coil back so your back is to the net, and then begin the forward swing.
 
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Chadillac

Guest
Yes, for the one-hand backhand drive. I guess if I get the contact point out in front, it should work out...

I was told that I was over-rotating and opening up torso too early. Needed to stay sideways... Another key is to coil back so your back is to the net, and then begin the forward swing.
Nah just show back right shoulder on prep, sometimes you dont even have time todo that. Your left foot is an anchor, as is your left shoulder, keep either back (dont have todo both) and you cannot over rotate without breaking your sternum.
 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
A high speed video of Wawrinka, Gasquet or Justine Henin is as good as it gets.

Don't reduce a motion to words or a single picture.

It is possible that the word 'arming' has no searchable definition in tennis usage. link?
 
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FiReFTW

Legend
@Raul_SJ What helps me:

1.Good unit turn and upper torso rotation (focus on having my chin over my shoulder looking into the court me have a good rotation - showing back to opponent)

2.Same as point 1, unit turn and torso rotation but doing it FAST and in time, if you dont and get caught late with a fast ball the shot will break down

3.Dropping the racquet and having a relaxed arm and as it drops pushing with ur legs and unwinding ur hips slightly and then upper body and then arm

Of course thats when everything is perfect, you do get caught late sometimes and dont rotate fast enough and the shot breaks down a bit and u end up kind of arming it, so need to work on it, but from now and then it happens to the pros aswell tho on extremely hard balls, while for us "green" players it happens more often
 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
On the other hand

Picture a credit card squeezed between the chest and upper arm. If the card is not squeezed during acceleration it would fall out. "Arming" - in my usage - means that the shoulder muscles are moving the upper arm. When the chest is directly pressing on the upper arm that is the opposite of using the shoulder muscles. You use the shoulder muscles later as shown by the upper arm separating from the chest.


The forehand has different biomechanics than the one hand backhand. There is no forehand equivalent for the one hand backhand's solid pressing of the chest on the upper arm .

See thread.
https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/one-hand-backhand-waht-force-to-start-forward-swing.462997/

Draggy has some interesting alternate views.
 
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FiReFTW

Legend
On the other hand

Picture a credit card squeezed between the chest and upper arm. If the card is not squeezed during acceleration it would fall out. "Arming" - in my usage - means that the shoulder muscles are moving the upper arm. When the chest is directly pressing on the upper arm that is the opposite of using the shoulder muscles. You use the shoulder muscles later as shown by the upper arm separating from the chest.


The forehand has different biomechanics than the one hand backhand. There is no forehand equivalent for the one hand backhand's solid pressing on the upper arm.

See thread.
https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/one-hand-backhand-waht-force-to-start-forward-swing.462997/

Draggy has some interesting alternate views.


Federer doesn't do this on most of his shots tho and alot of other pros also, so I don't think its essential.

But it does help because when you press it against your chest you feel that ur body turns first before your arm on your chest so you can get a good feeling for it.
 

Raul_SJ

G.O.A.T.
A high speed video of Wawrinka, Gasquet or Justine Henin is as good as it gets.

Don't reduce a motion to words or a single picture.

It is possible that the word 'arming' has no searchable definition in tennis usage.
To me, "arming" is very obvious on the forehand and the serve. If the motion is not driven by the core/torso, my arm does more work and gets tired quickly. Done correctly, it feels effortless and I can rally longer without tiring..

Have not quite discovered that on the backhand drive. As you mentioned, maybe one of the keys is to hold the credit card -- that ensures the torso is engaged.
 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
.....................

Federer doesn't do this on most of his shots tho and alot of other pros also, so I don't think its essential.

But it does help because when you press it against your chest you feel that ur body turns first before your arm on your chest so you can get a good feeling for it.
That video is from 2009. More recent videos are not always clear. I am uncertain of what Federer does in percentage. Sometimes definitely he does not press, even on stronger drives. Sometimes it is not clear. I checked out his new backhand performance appearing 2017. He does not seem as committed to pressing on the upper arm with the chest, might do it sometimes. ? Maybe his game has yet another upside? .......... Note - if the arm clearly comes off the chest, you know that the chest is not pressing on the upper arm. But the arm could also be close to the chest and you can't tell if there is any pressing.

Feliciano Lopez, a few years ago, did not press and clearly separated. Also, his backhand drive was criticized. Videos from a few years ago (3?) were very clear. Lopez was an example in clear contrast to Wawrinka, Gasquet and Justine Henin - my models for top one hand backhands. He hit mostly slice backhands. See thread. Lopez may have improved his backhand drive about 2 years ago. ?

I believe that this pressing was the reason, some years ago, I accidentally hit 6 to 10 uniquely strong backhands as I ran forward during matches. The pressing now gives me more pace and a better feel.

The second clear feature of the high level 1H backhand is the distinctive way that the racket is brought down with the off hand. The off hand causes internal shoulder rotation (ISR) that stretches the ERS muscles. Later the ESR muscles can be used for ESR around impact. Some functions of these joint motions are not clear.

Details and video evidence are in the thread.
 
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FiReFTW

Legend
I am uncertain what Federer does in detail. Sometimes definitely he does not, even on stronger drives. Sometimes it is not clear. I check out his new backhand performance appearing 2017. He does not seem as committed to pressing on the upper arm with the chest. Maybe his game has an another upside? ..........

Feliciano Lopez, a few years ago, did not do this. Also, his backhand drive was criticized. Videos from a few years ago (3?) were very clear. Lopez was an example in clear contrast to Wawrinka, Gasquet and Justine Henin - my models for top one hand backhands. He hit mostly slice backhands. See thread.

I believe that this pressing was the reason I accidentally hit 6 to 10 uniquely strong backhands as I ran forward some years ago. The pressing now gives me more pace and a better feel. The second part of the high level technique is the technique of bringing the racket down.

Details and video evidence are in the thread.
In my opinion pressing against the chest has a benefit of feeling ur torso initiating the rotation before your arm, because your biceps is pressing on ur chest and as your torso starts to rotate you feel it on your biceps and how it kind of pulls it forward.

I think as Federer and some others are so advanced and in tune with their backhand they don't really need to do this as they can initiate the rotation from their body without really feeling it so much, and the arm gets pulled forward regardless.

Putting ur arm on chest may have slightly better power potential in my opinion because its a longer swingpath, but not having it pressed is shorter and you need less time to get to the contact point, maybe also one reason why some pro players use it, to save time because those strokes are so fast at the high level that they rather have a slightly shorter swingpath?
 

Pete Player

Hall of Fame
Yet the hitting arm were not fully compressed against the chest, the initial velocity is coming from stepping in and shoulder turn. That is quite visible on Federer’s shots too.

However his release is far more to the side of his ribcase than like Wawrinka’s. Gasquet is very similar to Federer mechanically.

Arming is not allways doubtless, nor visibly implied. However the feel would tell, whether or not the shoulder muscles are mostly moving the arm.


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On pain meds - all contributed matter and anti-matter subject to disclaimer
 
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Deleted member 23235

Guest
anti-arming mental model:
throw the racquet at the contact...
i'd even physically throw an old racquet...
if your stroke doesn't feel like that, you're likely arming the ball.... likely because your timing/anticipation is off, and you're guiding the racquet to the ball.
IMO everyone should spend some time:
1 just throw the racquet as far as you can (with fh/bh technique)
2 just hitting the ball into the back fence,
3 add topspin, and hit the back fence
4 add more topspin and try to keep the ball in the court with spin
most late rec adults just skip to step 4... trying to get it right from the start
most juniors do 1 & 2 in the course of goofing with their buddies ("how far/hard can you hit it")... then take lessons to do 3&4

was hitting with an older low-4.0 player the other day while waiting for my buddy... he was having trouble handling my pace&spin (hit right to him)... he'd shorten his follow through, and just block the ball back... which was probably effective to produce a consistent sitter.

i insisted he needs to do the opposite... shorten the backswing and take a full follow through... he did it a couple times, and hit the back curtain. excitedly, i scream, "yes! that's it"... but he was clearly more interested in "just getting it in" that he reverted back to his bunty/blocky ways just a couple strokes later. it was really hard to convince him that the ball hitting the back curtain was actually progress. i gave up and went back to hitting med fh/bh slice, that sat up in front of him.
 

FiReFTW

Legend
anti-arming mental model:
throw the racquet at the contact...
i'd even physically throw an old racquet...
if your stroke doesn't feel like that, you're likely arming the ball.... likely because your timing/anticipation is off, and you're guiding the racquet to the ball.
IMO everyone should spend some time:
1 just throw the racquet as far as you can (with fh/bh technique)
2 just hitting the ball into the back fence,
3 add topspin, and hit the back fence
4 add more topspin and try to keep the ball in the court with spin
most late rec adults just skip to step 4... trying to get it right from the start
most juniors do 1 & 2 in the course of goofing with their buddies ("how far/hard can you hit it")... then take lessons to do 3&4

was hitting with an older low-4.0 player the other day while waiting for my buddy... he was having trouble handling my pace&spin (hit right to him)... he'd shorten his follow through, and just block the ball back... which was probably effective to produce a consistent sitter.

i insisted he needs to do the opposite... shorten the backswing and take a full follow through... he did it a couple times, and hit the back curtain. excitedly, i scream, "yes! that's it"... but he was clearly more interested in "just getting it in" that he reverted back to his bunty/blocky ways just a couple strokes later. it was really hard to convince him that the ball hitting the back curtain was actually progress. i gave up and went back to hitting med fh/bh slice, that sat up in front of him.
Yes good analogy.
I always feel like this when hitting great kinetic chain shots, exploding and pushing from the ground and then my body unwinding and the racquet gets thrown forward and whips forward like a whip, and everytime when im stretched and can't really use the kinetic chain at full potential it feels a bit less like it and a bit more arm involvement.
 

ChaelAZ

G.O.A.T.
Was thinking about this and I don't know how I could ever arm a 1HBH. The should rotation has to happen for my stroke and leads the forward momentum. i suppose if I am blocking it back or abbreviating the swing it's more arming.
 

FiReFTW

Legend
Was thinking about this and I don't know how I could ever arm a 1HBH. The should rotation has to happen for my stroke and leads the forward momentum. i suppose if I am blocking it back or abbreviating the swing it's more arming.
Yeah sometimes when the ball is fast and you are a bit late in ur unit turn and it catches you off guard you don't have much time but to shorten the swing and involve the arm more and use less of the kinetic chain.
 

Hmgraphite1

Hall of Fame
A pro at our club indicated a short burst hip drive leads the shot. I tried this for a while shadow swinging. Then saw a video on using the hips more to load the upper torso shoulder drive. So I incorporated this. Really changed my ohbh for the better. It prob used to happen before occasionally when I'd hit a good one, but now I'm using repeatable technique that I step into approaching the shot when there's time.
 

Shroud

G.O.A.T.
For the forehand, I like to think of leading with the torso and the racquet/hand lags behind and then snaps through.




What is a good image to have for the one-hand backhand to avoid "arming" and properly engaging the core?
Legs is where most of the power comes from IMHO. Most backhands are still more linear and dont really engage the core like a fh. IMHO the backhand has yet to evolve like the fh. Closed vs. open.

 

NuBas

Legend
You avoid arming anything by getting into position and allowing your set-up to swing the racquet. Unfortunately its the only way.
 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
........... The should rotation has to happen for my stroke and leads the forward momentum. ...........
Which "shoulder rotation" do you mean? What does "happen" mean?

1) A shoulder joint rotation as defined for the shoulder joint? External shoulder rotation (ESR) or internal shoulder rotation (ISR)?

Or

2) Turning of the upper body so that the shoulders are prominently seen to turn? The acting joints turning the upper body might be those of the legs and hips and/or the obliques and spine.

Or

3) Another defined shoulder joint motion that visibly moves the upper arm away from the chest? Horizontal abduction?
 
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Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
In my opinion pressing against the chest has a benefit of feeling ur torso initiating the rotation before your arm, because your biceps is pressing on ur chest and as your torso starts to rotate you feel it on your biceps and how it kind of pulls it forward.
Agree. Is that new for you?

The chest simply pushes the upper arm and if you were to put a credit card in between, the card would be squeezed. The feeling is very distinct, new for me after 45 years of one hand backhands.

I think as Federer and some others are so advanced and in tune with their backhand they don't really need to do this as they can initiate the rotation from their body without really feeling it so much, and the arm gets pulled forward regardless.
Players hit various strokes depending on the incoming ball and their intent. What do they do when they intend to hit heavy pace on a ball that is not pressuring them? Their best drives. The stronger one hand backhand drives with models Wawrinka, Justine Henin and Gasquet appear to have the chest pressed on the upper arm.

Putting ur arm on chest may have slightly better power potential in my opinion because its a longer swingpath, but not having it pressed is shorter and you need less time to get to the contact point, maybe also one reason why some pro players use it, to save time because those strokes are so fast at the high level that they rather have a slightly shorter swingpath?
At first, I thought that the upper arm had to be pressed on the chest before forward upper body turn began. Fxanimator1 pointed out that the chest can move a very short distance to then develop the pressing forces and his view seems much more reasonable. Also, this is the technique Fxanimator1 uses. Fxanimator1 has a more relaxed backhand, the pros can very intense on some drives.

For heavy drives
1) Chest pressing upper arm early in forward motion - Gasquet, Wawrinka, Justine Henin

2) Chest maybe sometimes pressing upper arm early in forward motion but not always - Federer.

3) Chest not pressing upper arm early in forward motion - F. Lopez few years ago. Now ?



[FYI - To break up a post into separate smaller quotes - just cut and paste the [QXOTE="FiReFTW, post: BBBBBB, member: 747622"] and [/QXOTE] several times. ]
 
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dct693

Semi-Pro
You have to have a really good deep unit turn. Have someone video you doing backhands and see how good your turn is. If you're worried about arming, my guess is that your turn is too shallow and therefore your core has too little room to be engaged and you have to use your arm to compensate.
 

FiReFTW

Legend
You have to have a really good deep unit turn. Have someone video you doing backhands and see how good your turn is. If you're worried about arming, my guess is that your turn is too shallow and therefore your core has too little room to be engaged and you have to use your arm to compensate.
And alot of times the lack of a good unit turn is because you start to unit turn too late and the shot is too fast and you get caught off guard and robbed off time.
 
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Deleted member 23235

Guest
Legs is where most of the power comes from IMHO. Most backhands are still more linear and dont really engage the core like a fh. IMHO the backhand has yet to evolve like the fh. Closed vs. open.

lol, disc golf is not where i'd have looked for a good example of throwing... but that's pretty perfect :p
 

mad dog1

G.O.A.T.
You have to have a really good deep unit turn. Have someone video you doing backhands and see how good your turn is. If you're worried about arming, my guess is that your turn is too shallow and therefore your core has too little room to be engaged and you have to use your arm to compensate.
Bingo! OP has post short gifs with him executing the bh and it showed a very shallow unit turn.
 

mad dog1

G.O.A.T.
And alot of times the lack of a good unit turn is because you start to unit turn too late and the shot is too fast and you get caught off guard and robbed off time.
This is definitely not the OP’s issue. In his gif, he was doing drop feeds IIRC.
 

Pete Player

Hall of Fame
Chest is not pushing, but shoulder turn is pulling the arm, which compresses against the chest.


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On pain meds - all contributed matter and anti-matter subject to disclaimer
 

Hmgraphite1

Hall of Fame
I feel my back lat muscle on the hitting side engaging just prior to the shoulder or arm. This only seems to happen when unit turn in strong which happens when bicep is against pec.
 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
Chest is not pushing, but shoulder turn is pulling the arm, which compresses against the chest.
....................
"Compresses" means forces are being applied at the chest.

Probably both pushing and pulling forces occur since the joint gives way and it is not a rigid structure. Probably all the structures around the shoulder: bones, ligaments, shoulder capsule, shoulder tendons and muscles along with the surface of the chest get compressed or are stretched (and pull).

The forces on the upper arm from many of the shoulder structures probably depend on when certain structures are reaching the ends of their ranges of motion. These can't be seen in videos.

I assume the chest pushing forces are likely present whenever the upper arm to chest space appears too small to see in videos.

What upper body structures are pulling?

I don't find the words 'pushing' and 'pulling' to be very informative for tennis strokes, I usually don't understand when they are used for tennis strokes.

But the surface of the chest 'pushing' on the upper arm is a clear thing with a video signature. It can also be felt at that chest-arm area. I believe.
 
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Pete Player

Hall of Fame
"Compresses" means forces are being applied at the chest.

Probably both pushing and pulling forces occur since the joint gives way and it is not a rigid structure. Probably all the structures around the shoulder: bones, ligaments, shoulder capsule, shoulder tendons and muscles along with the surface of the chest get compressed or are stretched (and pull).

The shoulder structures' forces probably depend on when certain structures are reaching the ends of their ranges of motion. These can't be seen in videos.

I assume the chest pushing forces are likely present whenever the upper arm to chest space appears too small to see in videos.

What upper body structures are pulling?

I don't find the words 'pushing' and 'pulling' to be very informative for tennis strokes, I usually don't understand when they are used for tennis strokes.

But the surface of the chest 'pushing' on the upper arm is a clear thing. It can also be felt.
You can push by your chest like in bench press, that is in tennis stroke, 1hbh, possible only, if you’re standing niples to the net. Chest does not have muscles, that could push the hitting hand to the side of your body (Fede and Gasquet) with quite a little compressing to the chest.

Waw dtl backhand compresses the passive arm really hard to his chest, while shoulder turn fiersly pull the relaxed arm around the torso. The release is more niples to the net than on Fede or Gasquet, but it is so fast, it is virtually not possible to be a push.


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On pain meds - all contributed matter and anti-matter subject to disclaimer
 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
You can push by your chest like in bench press, that is in tennis stroke, 1hbh, possible only, if you’re standing niples to the net. Chest does not have muscles, that could push the hitting hand to the side of your body (Fede and Gasquet) with quite a little compressing to the chest.
The chest muscles are not doing anything. A part of the body, the chest, is being pushed into the upper arm by the parts of the body below the upper body such as the legs, hips, obliques, and spine muscles.

Waw dtl backhand compresses the passive arm really hard to his chest, while shoulder turn fiersly pull the relaxed arm around the torso. The release is more niples to the net than on Fede or Gasquet, but it is so fast, it is virtually not possible to be a push.
Agree on compression part. Others ??

But in many/most lower level backhands and a percentage? of pro backhands, the "really hard" press to the chest is completely absent, see the backhand drive of F. Lopez of a few years ago, maybe now?. This is easy to study because it has a clear video signature.

I was only talking about the initial acceleration of the upper arm and the particular forces on the upper arm that are from chest contact (compression, pushing, etc). These forces are applied through the skin and shirt over the contact area between the chest and upper arm. Other forces on the upper arm (that pull) are applied to the humerus and its ball by tendons that attach to the upper arm bone around the shoulder joint. And there are more forces from other structures. These forces are hard to know about, too complicated for 2018 tennis explanations, and do not have the crystal clear video signature and the distinct feeling that the chest area force gives to anyone that tries it.

The body rotation accelerates strongly and the inertia (from mass) of the arm and racket causes the chest to press on the upper arm "really hard", as you say, and cause initial acceleration of the arm and racket. There are pulls too.

Later, not discussed, the lower acceleration level and shoulder joint allow the upper arm to separate from the chest. This separation ends the force of the chest pressing on the upper arm. Details of this later phase unknown.

Two phase acceleration to impact.
 
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Pete Player

Hall of Fame
Hours of frisbee is the only reason I have a remotely passible backhand
Your backhand is quite good, dont sell yourself short.

Actually, yet nyta seems to disagree, the best 1hbhs are ”backhand throwing” just like serve and forehands on the opposite side of your body. It is not too far fetched to compare it to flat out disc golf bh drive.

Also the forearm and wrist motion is quite alike.


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On pain meds - all contributed matter and anti-matter subject to disclaimer
 

watungga

Professional
IMO, modern forehands had embraced the arming motion except that there is firmer/stable core present in handling overall rotational balance, and that is what we called leading with the torso. Even without the torso, it is now possible to arm the ball but had to swing a whiplash stroke as we see FEDAL's running forehands.

Club players emulating ATP forehands are now capable of hitting solid shots with just the arm.

So, talking about the 1hbh, I think its all about strict timing in the rotation of racquet prior to impact. Mostly its about timing. You need to get ahead of where the ball's gonna land. You need to time the balls speed coming to bounce and toward you. Making estimate to where to place the racquet height to execute the swing line on. All these things in mind, you gotta need to arm your backhand. LOL
 

Moveforwardalways

Hall of Fame
If you are hitting a consistent good solid topspin ball with your 1HBH, then you are not arming it. It’s impossible with a 1HBH. That’s why the 2HBH is so popular, because you can get away with more. The 1HBH gives you nothing for free.
 

IowaGuy

Hall of Fame
most juniors do 1 & 2 in the course of goofing with their buddies ("how far/hard can you hit it")
A club pro who casually knows Mats Wilander once told me a story of Mats goofing on the beach, trying to keep a rally going with a buddy with no net and hitting much further than a normal tennis court.

The club pro tells this story to demonstrate the touch/feel that pros have (racket as extension of their arm).

Has anyone heard a similar story about Wilander or any other pros?
 

IowaGuy

Hall of Fame
Legs is where most of the power comes from IMHO. Most backhands are still more linear and dont really engage the core like a fh. IMHO the backhand has yet to evolve like the fh. Closed vs. open.
Nice analogy with the disc golf! Looks like the deep unit turn is also somewhat similar for powerful throws (maybe even more exaggerated for disc golf)

 

Raul_SJ

G.O.A.T.
The chest muscles are not doing anything. A part of the body, the chest, is being pushed into the upper arm by the parts of the body below the upper body such as the legs, hips, obliques, and spine muscles.

Agree on compression part. Others ??
Agree that we should look at what pros are doing in cases where they have time to set up and drive. The chest squeeze looks like a good cue to remind yourself you are coiling sufficiently. Stan appears to do it.

But kinetically I don't know if it makes a difference. If, as you say, the chest muscles are not doing anything, and assuming one is sufficiently coiled, what difference does it make if there is space between the chest and upper arm or not?

 

Pete Player

Hall of Fame
I do aggree with @watungga on the timing thing, but highly disaggree on the mandatory arming, if and cause the timing is so important. Proper timing will take off all the arming, but requires proper rythm and impact position, ie. spacing.


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On pain meds - all contributed matter and anti-matter subject to disclaimer
 
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Deleted member 23235

Guest
Actually, yet nyta seems to disagree, the best 1hbhs are ”backhand throwing” just like serve and forehands on the opposite side of your body. It is not too far fetched to compare it to flat out disc golf bh drive.

Also the forearm and wrist motion is quite alike.


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On pain meds - all contributed matter and anti-matter subject to disclaimer
? i agreed with shroud... i liked the disc golf analogy for the 1hbh
 

Enga

Hall of Fame
I've seen and heard a lot of people saying you should try to stay sideways, but I've felt that it isn't the only solution. I think there are 2 significantly different ways that pros are doing it, both achieving good results. I honestly feel like staying sideways is a way to limit yourself from rotating your torso, and using more a pendulum swinging motion to hit the ball, so you can hit the ball straight. But I really don't think it's a bad thing if you don't do that.

You coil up, show the back a little bit towards the net, unleash and open up the chest back to the net. Key is to swipe the racket more sideways across the ball, than trying to hit from 6 to 12. More like 8 to 2. Like an inside-out backhand. Nothing wrong with that. Some pros do only that. I definitely feel like Federer is more a proponent of the closed stance pendulum type motion, and Wawrinka is more a proponent of the more open stanced inside out type thingy majig.
 
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philosoup

Rookie
The way to avoid arming

1- always try to stay loose from the shoulder down to wrist from the beginning of forward swing.
2- stay in good timing: using feet to position, to track the incoming ball -- this means continuous projection of hit zone and ensure you're instantly ready at any moment to initiate forward swing at the ball in the projected hit zone. Apparently, your projection has to be right. It takes experience.
3- using both/either the hips and/or the feet to initiate the forward swing of the racquet
4- pay attention to the footwork that makes 2 and 3 fall into your favorite rhythm that feels effortless
 

Hmgraphite1

Hall of Fame
The way to avoid arming

1- always try to stay loose from the shoulder down to wrist from the beginning of forward swing.
2- stay in good timing: using feet to position, to track the incoming ball -- this means continuous projection of hit zone and ensure you're instantly ready at any moment to initiate forward swing at the ball in the projected hit zone. Apparently, your projection has to be right. It takes experience.
3- using both/either the hips and/or the feet to initiate the forward swing of the racquet
4- pay attention to the footwork that makes 2 and 3 fall into your favorite rhythm that feels effortless
Any info on what makes 4- fail?
 

watungga

Professional
I do aggree with @watungga on the timing thing, but highly disaggree on the mandatory arming, if and cause the timing is so important. Proper timing will take off all the arming, but requires proper rythm and impact position, ie. spacing.
One handed backhands are really a weakness if timing isn't a second nature to the hitter. Solid arm and stable grip are what we all witnessed on high level players' performances. I'm sure they'll be harking the need of stable arms and grips, but gotta produce a good timing. What I'm implying here is that all the core action of said backhand is in the behavior of the arm. Treat it like a racquet extension.
 

ChaelAZ

G.O.A.T.
Which "shoulder rotation" do you mean? What does "happen" mean?

1) A shoulder joint rotation as defined for the shoulder joint? External shoulder rotation (ESR) or internal shoulder rotation (ISR)?

Or

2) Turning of the upper body so that the shoulders are prominently seen to turn? The acting joints turning the upper body might be those of the legs and hips and/or the obliques and spine.

Or

3) Another defined shoulder joint motion that visibly moves the upper arm away from the chest? Horizontal abduction?
Sorry I missed this. What I was referring to is (for me) is body rotation as part of the back swing, so probably should say should 'turn' but I meant as part of the upper body rotation.
 

philosoup

Rookie
Any info on what makes 4- fail?
You have to be specific here. Timing, power, or control? and I can imagine it also depends on the types of shots also, high ball, low ball, pace, angles, etc. In my case, I used to have timing problem that I couldn't get a clean contact with fast balls and I still have this problem sometimes. Most of my problems was poor anticipation leading to bad shoulder turn and racquet takeback angle, instead of footwork.
 

Raul_SJ

G.O.A.T.
I've seen and heard a lot of people saying you should try to stay sideways, but I've felt that it isn't the only solution. I think there are 2 significantly different ways that pros are doing it, both achieving good results. I honestly feel like staying sideways is a way to limit yourself from rotating your torso, and using more a pendulum swinging motion to hit the ball, so you can hit the ball straight. But I really don't think it's a bad thing if you don't do that.

You coil up, show the back a little bit towards the net, unleash and open up the chest back to the net. Key is to swipe the racket more sideways across the ball, than trying to hit from 6 to 12. More like 8 to 2. Like an inside-out backhand. Nothing wrong with that. Some pros do only that. I definitely feel like Federer is more a proponent of the closed stance pendulum type motion, and Wawrinka is more a proponent of the more open stanced inside out type thingy majig.
Yes, Wawrinka seems to have chest much more open (facing towards the net) at contact, while Federer is more sideways at contact. I think their shoulder coils are about the same, so this means Wawrinka gets significantly more torso rotation into the shot...

Other posts have mentioned that Wawrinka is more muscular and stronger. But I'm sure Federer does core strength training as well. The main difference, IMO, is that Wawrinka rotates into the shot more.

But also note that extra rotation will likely make the shot more difficult to control for rec players, which is why most coaches advocate a more sideways position at contact.
 
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